My first time belaying the climber had to do this. As someone who had barely climbed before I was so confused as to what on earth they were hanging out at the top for.
only if you are always fully loading the draw. If your in a stace where you are fuly loading the draw. If you unweight it at any point there is a chance it could unclip itself, snap gates can do funny things, Watch JB mountain skills has a video discussing how he was using a quickdraw and it came undone sending him flying down to his next bolt. lockers are for extra saftey.
The quickdraws are opposite, but not opposed as is the common practice like others have mentioned. It can be difficult to clean up this quick draw anchor if/when your weight is on the rope. And you always want to weight the new knots before cleaning your anchor. So unless you have a nice ledge to stand on, which you dont always have, this doesnt work for me. I always use at least one sling with an autolocker to one of the bolts if they're chained together, or both bolts if they're not connected.
Agreed with the metal on metal even though they both may be aluminum. You did clip the draws with the gates facing in when it typically is practiced with the gates facing out.
You are incorrect. The draws start facing opposite and opposed. If you have the top gates on the draws, both facing out, or in this case, facing in, you’ll end up with opposite end opposed.
@@saxmanjosh well, I think we're both kind of right. If the gates are facing in, you, technically, do you have opposite and closed. But you are correct, to build your typical sport climbing anchor, the gate should be facing out, as you suggested. One more reason why I always use a locking quickdraw.
Not in this application. Burrs formed by sharp steel hangers scratching into aluminum soft carabiners is one thing. Here you have a soft aluminum locker that is smooth on a soft aluminum non locker that’s also smooth… it’s like the porch swing at your house, you aren’t gonna form sharp edges with that.
@@summitseekersexperience Ah..... that makes good sense, thanks for elaborating. I enjoy your content, keep it coming man. Could you make a video regarding SPI test material? Maybe how you'd navigate scenarios that require improvisation?
Also if you always thread the rope through the bend gate (rigid carabiner placement with a rubber insert) and anchor through straight gate (loose carabiner placement), the rope never even hits the grooves made by metal-on- metal. One biner for the rope, one biner for the anchor.
Typically not when there's a ring on a quicklink and typically not on anything vert or overhung. I've lowered off of anchors like the one here plenty and never had noticeable rope twist. The ring on the quicklink makes it way harder to pin the rope on the wall, which induces those kinks. Open to listen if you've got counterexamples though.
I personally go the extra mile and redo the figure 8 knot at the end of the rope to avoid having 1.5m of rope dangling around. oh and I also have a life line on my harness.
This actually less safe because you could theoretically drop the rope while it's untied? Unless you're tying a figure 8 on a bite THEN retying THEN taking out the figure 8 on a bite
With this method you’re secured by the rope and the belayer the whole time. Then I really don’t need to be fully redundantly secured by the quickdraws. In fact most times I just a single standard quickdraw. Depends on the situation though. Exposure, steepness, footholds. Another point is that the rings need to be large enough to accept a double rope bight even when there’s a biner attached in it.
Yeah, I did a video a week or two ago highlighting that there was in fact no pas needed as you said. I wanted to do this one for overhanging or steep routes though.
Generally if I'm setting up a TR anchor like this I avoid clipping the rap rings, both to make it easier to pass a bight, but also to avoid metal-to-metal contact on rope bearing surfaces. I'm probably more anal about it than is really required, but I also usually don't setup an anchor on normal drawer, I usually use a sewn rope sling in a ponytail setup (beal makes a very nice dynamic rope sling I use for this purpose) with some nice thick diameter steel autolockers, so you could clip the masterpoint or the shelf and do a similar thing. Most of the popular crags near me also have fixed fifi hooks instead of rap rings which makes removing the anchor much easier.
Recently got into an argument with someone on instagram who thought this method was completely unacceptable. I explained to him how this is considered redundant and many popular sport climbing areas advocate for lowering instead of rappelling to minimize accidents. He responded “you’ve only gotten this far on luck” and accused me and my company of spreading dangerous practices to our clients and that he feels sorry for anyone who books with us. All this coming from someone with apparently 25+ years of backcountry experience but obvious gaps in his single-pitch knowledge. Can we please keep these elitist, close-minded attitudes out of climbing? Understanding cannot occur when we refuse to think critically and discuss ideas.
Yeah, understand there’s going to always be this subgroup of people that thing there’s only one way to do everything and everyone else is wrong and they are overly assertive. With that in mind and accepting it can’t be changed, how can you (and I) change our approach. One way I do it is I simply don’t engage with these goofy arguments, I’ll explain why I do something a certain way and then if the other person isn’t remaining constructive I kind of just shrug my shoulders and move on vs try to convince them… I think not allowing these stonewall conversations to escalate will help at least with people feeling like they can ask questions and share knowledge without raising their adrenaline. It’s definitely a tough one in a sport with a lot of egos
Well, all I would have to say is this person is completely ignorant about modern practices. The demonstration here is totally fine. Yes, the locker draw is maybe not necessary, but if it makes you happy to use it then go right ahead.
I prefer rappelling because the gear on site could last more , I mean tons of people are going to use this rings and anchores , but I like how easy is to clean the route whit the method show in the video
@@cesarfer3181 you are welcome to rappel if that is something you and your partner agree on. But in many areas, anchors are built with quick links that allow components that wear out to be easily and inexpensively replaced. In that situation, it's usually faster and less risk to lower off. Both methods can be acceptable depending on local circumstances and your preference.
Nothing… it’s just takes longer and now you gotta where a bunch of things on your belay loop on the climb. This way is more efficient and you don’t have to do the climb with lanyards in your lap.
For sure... what if you can't see the anchor? I'd rather have a more traditional anchor with two lockers then quick draws. Or if you are setting up multiple top ropes and need your quick draws to climb more routes. Or if the route is wandering. Or if you are going to have like 20 people climb a route for the day... a more robust anchor would be appropriate... so lots of instances.
This is the recommended procedure by the American Alpine Club given recent higher frequency in fatal accidents when cleaning… check it out when you get a chance
I add my self to the critics of: 1.- Metal to metal where your rope is going to go through. 2.- Absence of redundancy/oposite hms for your rope. 3.- Anchor your system directly to the bolts, your personal anchoring to the first link of chain and your last belaying rope to the last link of the chain
1. Where the rope feeds is an aluminum draw on a hard steel. The aluminum should cause no burrs or defect of any kind. 2. I honestly don't know what you mean. At no point here is he off belay and using a locker to lower is fine 3. Lovely to have rules, but anchors vary so much in set-up that I don't see a reason for a rule like this over the general principle of "make it easy to set up, unable to be levered in weird ways, and easy to clean". I've encountered poorly angled hangers at anchors that could snap a biner if you clipped directly into them and took a fall.
Pablo, you are well-meaning in your comments I am sure, but incorrect. The method shown here is completely fine and advocated by many professional guides in the United States. There’s nothing wrong with it.
Terrible advice. Rappelling is one of the most dangerous parts of climbing, tons of climbing management orgs recommend lowering and gear their areas accordingly. Easily 90%+ of sport crags in the US are geared for lowering, yes the gear will "wear down" but it will take many many many years, and will get replaced before it is unsafe.
It seems people who say that consider human body like an elephant or something. Their logic would be also to not climb at all cause it damages the bolts when you use them
Check some resources like red river gorge and American alpine club, etc… this paradigm has changed over the last 10 years (I learned the way you described as well)
@summitseekersexperience Sorry, but you have an international audience here, and maybe in other places in the world, the fixed gear isn't replaced as regulafly as that in your localities...
That's complete nonsense. Every modern climbing instructor would strongly disagree with you. Rappelling is one of the biggest causes of accidents. You should top rope on your own gear but lower off on the fixed gear.
My first time belaying the climber had to do this. As someone who had barely climbed before I was so confused as to what on earth they were hanging out at the top for.
Locking quickdraw is overkill. Just use a normal quickdraw. You're tied into the rope at all times
For a stable stance, correct… what if you are cleaning an anchor in an overhanging stance? QuickDraw gives you some good security
@@summitseekersexperience what's the problem if it's overhanging? You're still tied in at every point
@@jackburgoyne918 if you need stability at the stance
@@summitseekersexperience if you just need stability what's the issue with a normal quickdraw
only if you are always fully loading the draw. If your in a stace where you are fuly loading the draw. If you unweight it at any point there is a chance it could unclip itself, snap gates can do funny things, Watch JB mountain skills has a video discussing how he was using a quickdraw and it came undone sending him flying down to his next bolt. lockers are for extra saftey.
The quickdraws are opposite, but not opposed as is the common practice like others have mentioned.
It can be difficult to clean up this quick draw anchor if/when your weight is on the rope. And you always want to weight the new knots before cleaning your anchor. So unless you have a nice ledge to stand on, which you dont always have, this doesnt work for me.
I always use at least one sling with an autolocker to one of the bolts if they're chained together, or both bolts if they're not connected.
Swift and effective method 👌🏼
Have sling attached to belay loop instead. Much quicker.
Agreed with the metal on metal even though they both may be aluminum. You did clip the draws with the gates facing in when it typically is practiced with the gates facing out.
Just use a quad
Ive heard this but ive never heard of anyone having an issue from doing it inward
Locking carabiner QD seems like overkill to me as well in this scenario, since you are always on belay, but to each their own.
That's the way I do it, too.
The draws didn't start in opposite or opposed
You are incorrect. The draws start facing opposite and opposed. If you have the top gates on the draws, both facing out, or in this case, facing in, you’ll end up with opposite end opposed.
Nope the gates have to face out. If both gates face inwards the you flip a loop of rope over and it will unclip you from both gates
@@saxmanjosh well, I think we're both kind of right. If the gates are facing in, you, technically, do you have opposite and closed. But you are correct, to build your typical sport climbing anchor, the gate should be facing out, as you suggested. One more reason why I always use a locking quickdraw.
Are you concerned about the metal on metal? I'd be nervous to cause damage to draws that ropes run through on TR.
Not in this application. Burrs formed by sharp steel hangers scratching into aluminum soft carabiners is one thing. Here you have a soft aluminum locker that is smooth on a soft aluminum non locker that’s also smooth… it’s like the porch swing at your house, you aren’t gonna form sharp edges with that.
@@summitseekersexperience Ah..... that makes good sense, thanks for elaborating. I enjoy your content, keep it coming man. Could you make a video regarding SPI test material? Maybe how you'd navigate scenarios that require improvisation?
@@Nickpetikas for sure, I’ve had a lot of people as me about this so I’ll make a video on it in the next few weeks
Also if you always thread the rope through the bend gate (rigid carabiner placement with a rubber insert) and anchor through straight gate (loose carabiner placement), the rope never even hits the grooves made by metal-on- metal. One biner for the rope, one biner for the anchor.
Suit yrself I would never do this
That rope will kink like crazy if you lower from an anchor like this
Typically not when there's a ring on a quicklink and typically not on anything vert or overhung. I've lowered off of anchors like the one here plenty and never had noticeable rope twist. The ring on the quicklink makes it way harder to pin the rope on the wall, which induces those kinks. Open to listen if you've got counterexamples though.
I personally go the extra mile and redo the figure 8 knot at the end of the rope to avoid having 1.5m of rope dangling around. oh and I also have a life line on my harness.
you’re only going to rappel on this so retying in takes more time than a figure 8 on a bite .
This actually less safe because you could theoretically drop the rope while it's untied? Unless you're tying a figure 8 on a bite THEN retying THEN taking out the figure 8 on a bite
Are rings as safe as ‘biners?
Locking quickdraw seems like a decent multi-use tool to get
Decently useful tool. I always give them to clients
With this method you’re secured by the rope and the belayer the whole time. Then I really don’t need to be fully redundantly secured by the quickdraws. In fact most times I just a single standard quickdraw. Depends on the situation though. Exposure, steepness, footholds.
Another point is that the rings need to be large enough to accept a double rope bight even when there’s a biner attached in it.
Yeah, I did a video a week or two ago highlighting that there was in fact no pas needed as you said. I wanted to do this one for overhanging or steep routes though.
Generally if I'm setting up a TR anchor like this I avoid clipping the rap rings, both to make it easier to pass a bight, but also to avoid metal-to-metal contact on rope bearing surfaces. I'm probably more anal about it than is really required, but I also usually don't setup an anchor on normal drawer, I usually use a sewn rope sling in a ponytail setup (beal makes a very nice dynamic rope sling I use for this purpose) with some nice thick diameter steel autolockers, so you could clip the masterpoint or the shelf and do a similar thing.
Most of the popular crags near me also have fixed fifi hooks instead of rap rings which makes removing the anchor much easier.
@@ArkanoidZerosurely you mean mussy hooks, not "fifi" hooks.
Recently got into an argument with someone on instagram who thought this method was completely unacceptable. I explained to him how this is considered redundant and many popular sport climbing areas advocate for lowering instead of rappelling to minimize accidents. He responded “you’ve only gotten this far on luck” and accused me and my company of spreading dangerous practices to our clients and that he feels sorry for anyone who books with us. All this coming from someone with apparently 25+ years of backcountry experience but obvious gaps in his single-pitch knowledge. Can we please keep these elitist, close-minded attitudes out of climbing? Understanding cannot occur when we refuse to think critically and discuss ideas.
Yeah, understand there’s going to always be this subgroup of people that thing there’s only one way to do everything and everyone else is wrong and they are overly assertive. With that in mind and accepting it can’t be changed, how can you (and I) change our approach. One way I do it is I simply don’t engage with these goofy arguments, I’ll explain why I do something a certain way and then if the other person isn’t remaining constructive I kind of just shrug my shoulders and move on vs try to convince them… I think not allowing these stonewall conversations to escalate will help at least with people feeling like they can ask questions and share knowledge without raising their adrenaline. It’s definitely a tough one in a sport with a lot of egos
@@summitseekersexperience excellent insight. Thank you!
Well, all I would have to say is this person is completely ignorant about modern practices. The demonstration here is totally fine. Yes, the locker draw is maybe not necessary, but if it makes you happy to use it then go right ahead.
I prefer rappelling because the gear on site could last more , I mean tons of people are going to use this rings and anchores , but I like how easy is to clean the route whit the method show in the video
@@cesarfer3181 you are welcome to rappel if that is something you and your partner agree on. But in many areas, anchors are built with quick links that allow components that wear out to be easily and inexpensively replaced. In that situation, it's usually faster and less risk to lower off. Both methods can be acceptable depending on local circumstances and your preference.
The metal on metal loop may fray rope though
Only issue is your draws are now pinched under the rope and you may have to unweight it to clean them
Why not do it without the two quickdraws? Seems unnecessary.
What would you stop you from doing a pas or sling into the draws?
Nothing… it’s just takes longer and now you gotta where a bunch of things on your belay loop on the climb. This way is more efficient and you don’t have to do the climb with lanyards in your lap.
Is it a competition of doing it as fast as possible? Think on that.
I like you belt buckle.
I wouldn't be clipping another quickdraw into the snap gates used for the rope
Cccrag ccclean.
That's all folks!
I could just use 2 quickdraws for my anchor? Why am i spending time making a sliding x or a quad anchor?! 😂😅
You tell me… when would two quick draws not befitting?
@@summitseekersexperience when it's not long enough? I don't know. :(
For sure... what if you can't see the anchor? I'd rather have a more traditional anchor with two lockers then quick draws. Or if you are setting up multiple top ropes and need your quick draws to climb more routes. Or if the route is wandering. Or if you are going to have like 20 people climb a route for the day... a more robust anchor would be appropriate... so lots of instances.
So, you’re the one wearing out the rings! Do NOT do this.
This is the recommended procedure by the American Alpine Club given recent higher frequency in fatal accidents when cleaning… check it out when you get a chance
I add my self to the critics of:
1.- Metal to metal where your rope is going to go through.
2.- Absence of redundancy/oposite hms for your rope.
3.- Anchor your system directly to the bolts, your personal anchoring to the first link of chain and your last belaying rope to the last link of the chain
1. Where the rope feeds is an aluminum draw on a hard steel. The aluminum should cause no burrs or defect of any kind.
2. I honestly don't know what you mean. At no point here is he off belay and using a locker to lower is fine
3. Lovely to have rules, but anchors vary so much in set-up that I don't see a reason for a rule like this over the general principle of "make it easy to set up, unable to be levered in weird ways, and easy to clean". I've encountered poorly angled hangers at anchors that could snap a biner if you clipped directly into them and took a fall.
@@nelinno04 thanks 🙏
Pablo, you are well-meaning in your comments I am sure, but incorrect. The method shown here is completely fine and advocated by many professional guides in the United States. There’s nothing wrong with it.
Pas...
No need for a locker
Rap rings shouldn’t be lowered off.
Always rapell down. You're wearing out those rings by lowering off them. If everyone did that, eventually one person would be the last to do it
well, youve gotta get your gear somehow
@@zackmitarotonda soooooo clean your gear, then rap down
Terrible advice. Rappelling is one of the most dangerous parts of climbing, tons of climbing management orgs recommend lowering and gear their areas accordingly.
Easily 90%+ of sport crags in the US are geared for lowering, yes the gear will "wear down" but it will take many many many years, and will get replaced before it is unsafe.
It seems people who say that consider human body like an elephant or something. Their logic would be also to not climb at all cause it damages the bolts when you use them
I've seen plenty of worn rappelling rings in my day... one day the ring will fail, or it will fray your rope as it passes through...
You shouldn't be let down on fixed gear ...you should be rappelling down to avoid unnecessary wear on the fixed gear...
Check some resources like red river gorge and American alpine club, etc… this paradigm has changed over the last 10 years (I learned the way you described as well)
@summitseekersexperience Sorry, but you have an international audience here, and maybe in other places in the world, the fixed gear isn't replaced as regulafly as that in your localities...
@@erictrumpler9652 always good to be knowledgeable on the local rules and expectations
That's complete nonsense. Every modern climbing instructor would strongly disagree with you. Rappelling is one of the biggest causes of accidents. You should top rope on your own gear but lower off on the fixed gear.
Hey comment geniuses if u don’t like metal on metal girth hitch it 🤷♀️ still works either way
And you've made a triangle of death.
Not a problem at all with modern bolts. Each bolt can take 20 kN, no problem. You are maybe putting on 1.5 with this set up.
Beautiful