BYU Expels Students that Leave the Church
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- čas přidán 1. 03. 2024
- BYU currently maintains a policy to expel all post-Mormon students. This video looks at 3 common defenses of this policy and 1 reason to remove the policy.
Policy:
"Disaffiliation from [The Church] automatically results in the withdrawal of the student's ecclesiastical endorsement and the loss of good Honor Code standing. Disaffiliation is defined for purposes of this policy as removal of an individual's name from the official records of the Church."
Source: honorcode.byu.edu/withdrawn-o...
My college advisor was offered a teaching position at BYU a long time ago. She was told that (because she was an unmarried Methodist woman at the time) she’d have to live with a Mormon family, give up coffee and live the tenants of a faith she wasn’t a part of. She politely declined.
Good for her!
@@jonjahr3403 She didn't have to take it. Plus, other churches are far more judgemental and heartless than Mormons.
@@paarthurnax8519 No! Many Mormons are very judgemental, and the church with a lot of the things its leaders have taught definitely doesn't help. The Mormon church also definitely has a persecution complex. You're very naive!
Not very believable. In the first place, BYU would never offer a job to an outsider who has a continuing history of doing contrary to what the church teaches.
For example, if the person were a smoker, they'd surely be asked to stop smoking, or at the least, never be seen smoking on campus. And if they had a history of speaking favorably of abortion, they'd never be offered a position. It just goes with the logical territory -
@@scotthullinger4684 And you're very naive if you think that!
To get closer to the Lord--"Give us more money so we can build more Temples. "
Very perceptive discussion.
Thank you, I'm glad you found it insightful.
There are better universities to attend.
No, not really. Especially when taking into account the financial cost involved.
BYU isn't cheap, but it surely IS when compared to a host of other universities.
BYU is where you go to learn something. Many other universities are where you go to purchase a status symbol.
That status symbol is "only" $100,000 tuition per semester. Harvard, for example, is where Goddamn fools go.
Such people have no real substance.
THEN LEAVE
Not if you want a genuine education. Nothing better than BYU - especially at the price. Not inexpensive, but INFINITELY less expensive than Ivy League universities, the sort of schools which constantly take a royal shit on the USA and its founders. BYU educates without any worldly indoctrination. No brain washing occurs. But enemies of the university will surely tell you quite the exact opposite.
@@michaelparks5669 Lol, I find it hilarious that you assume he ever went there in the first place. That is definitely not the take away I got from his comment.
WWJD
Who
Would
Jesus
Deny?
I guess there is university of the people and Dallas College, I taught there, but if I get mine up I guess I’ll take a portion transfer students who wanted to eat small amounts of food and run 40 miles like that tribe in Mexico or present doctoral research.
I’m not sure to what school you are referring when you wrote, “I taught there.” Your sentence was difficult to follow, and seemed to change subjects multiple times.
People seriously need to stop commenting until they've actually watched the video. It's mind boggling the level of ignorance!
Only if you don't continue to live up the the honor code you signed before being admitted. There are plenty of non-LDS students at BYU.
There are plenty of non-LDS students, but there are 0 post-LDS students. We are not only talking about students that are excommunicated for sexual sin, drinking, drugs, etc., we are also talking about students that simply choose to change their religious affiliation.
I completely disagree with the LDS church. However, if its their own private school they have a right to put in whatever policy or code of conduct they want. If theyre being hypocritical agains their teaching that might be one thing but I dont see a problem with them having their own policy on who attends their school
You're entitled to your opinion. I definitely have a problem with it. It's hateful and bigoted. I have no problem with people speaking out about it. I think we should all speak out when we see discrimination and intolerance like this. I commend those that use their voice!
@@brianrosenlof388 Ok fine. You are also free to not support the university
How is this true when they welcome students to attend who are not of our religion?
Not true,. This is all anti Mormon propaganda
"Disaffiliation from [The Church] automatically results in the withdrawal of the student's ecclesiastical endorsement and the loss of good Honor Code standing." This is the official policy; I just added a link to the source in the description of this video.
@@Glass-Looker ok that makes if someone isn’t willing to live by the honor code of the school.
@@kristinrichmond8185 yes Mormon or non Mormon
@@michaelparks5669 I’m sorry I don’t understand. Can you clarify?
An excellent video illustrating a valid point. If BYU were an entirely EXCLUSIVE institution, only allowing active, believing LDS members to attend and to be employed there, then their practice of expelling anyone who no longer was considered active/believing would still be draconian, but coonsisrent. The fact is, the LDS Church has zero tolerance for any member who dissents. Its judgement is swift and it's "discipline" amounts to nothing short of abuse. I know too many who have lost their employment, or have been denied their diploma simply for holding a different viewpoint or belief.
In the end, what BYU and The Church in general are doing is creating a culture of living in secrecy, and telling lies simply to be able to continue to put bread on their table or finish their education theyve invested so much in already. It's monstrous. And comments clearly show the intollerace and rage invoked by the true believers toward anyone with a dissenting view. LDS members are alwats so eager to pick up those stones and hurl them at their Bros and Sistas who arent being "true and faithful" enough!!
This is not a hypothetical scenario. This is the reality for tens of thousands. Those who have lost everything for being true to the dictates of the conscience, and those who are desperately trying to hide their faith crises and/or any other personal differences, just hoping to survive long enough to graduate and/or retire! To make matters worse, The Church and its schools actively employ spy tactics to try to root out member dissonance. They will do anything to hunt down and expel/fire/excommunicate a member they deem "problematic" or a "threat" to their status quo. Its disgusting.
They dont do this to the never-Mormons amongst them. There is a double standard. They want to play nice, so they can be seen as "inclusive" to outsiders [whilst actively working on getting them to convert].
See how you want to see it. Every religion has strict rules and regulations that every member has to follow. As sad as it is, there are faiths that do far worse to their members than what mormons do. If you don't want to follow the strict rules of the BYU campus, then don't go there. You have the Liberty to go where you want to study. Ostracizing people that disagree with you is wrong but if that person causes nothing but problems for the school, it's teachers and it's students, then they are going to be facing consequences. You are blowing this completely out of proportion.
@@paarthurnax8519NO, they're not you are simplifying that is not a simple matter at all.
@@jonjahr3403 It is that simple. You can't follow the rules of the school, then don't go there. Stop your whining.
@@paarthurnax8519 So many of you are missing the point. This is not about that. It is about people going to BYU as a believing faithful member and then losing that faith. You do realize that can happen, right?
@@jonjahr3403 Sorry, but people should think about that before going to the school. They have a strict honor code, regardless if you are a member or not. You break them, you face the consequences.
I Was Born Into The Church, Hated It, Finally Left At 16, Never Looked Back
Since tithing from faithful members supports the institution, why would those who hate the church and have abandoned their membership expect anything else? Just another dig at the church...
It is a near certainty that those who posted this and those who back this view are likely the very ones this video is talking about. If you no longer wish to walk the paths you first chose, you have freedom to leave but don't demand the same privileges you had stir up contention because you can't have your cake and eat it too.
@@djlarkin76 Hello, I posted this video. I did not post this to stir up contention, but to encourage improvement at BYU. BYU is a great university and I'm glad I had the opportunity to attend, but I struggled mentally and emotionally. I just want to prevent future students from going through the same struggles.
@@Glass-Looker - I have a hunch that you would have struggled mentally and emotionally regardless of which university you ended up attending. I hate to say it, but you were blatantly immature, just like the current day students who are now whining & moaning about each and every expectation they encounter at school. Let's remember that BYU students actually sign a commitment to agree to the standards before they are accepted at the university. It's surely NO mystery that it's a religious school. It's meant to prepare students to be in the world, but not of the world.
@@scotthullinger4684 OMG, you are an awful human being!
But they allow non-Mormon's to attend the school. So even if your not LDS you can still go to this school, you must live by their rules while there.
Watch the video before commenting next time.
There are several clips available the show leaders stating that once you are baptized, you lose your free agency.
Hahaha! Show me ONE!
@@kalepeacockSure, "Mormon Church Telling Young Men They No Longer Have a Choice About Serving Missions" This is in addition to the infamous video of Bednar telling young men that they didn't have a choice about going on a mission.
@@kalepeacock"Elder Bednar: Mormon Moral Agency - You Are Not Free To Do What You Want"
Bologna. You can always ask forgiveness and nobody's walking around with a leash on your neck to make you do the way they want You too. You either do it your way or you do it God's way. But you will never be forced it's all up to you
@@colinmccann7123You didn't watch the videos did you.
Hey everybody. It's a religious university of a specific denomination. If you don't want to be religious and don't believe in Mormonism, kindly find a different university to go to. There are tons of non-religious universities in the United States. The tithing that partially pays tuition is meant for Latter Day Saints. How would a member of the Church feel about helping pay for students to attend BYU that could care less , in fact, are in opposition about the faith, when there are other youth, still in the faith, that want to attend BYU? There are not an unlimited amount of slots for students to be admitted and attend BYU. I think this video is possibly made for click bait and to make people mad. Hey, metaphorically speaking, if you, a post-mormon person doesn't like mint chocolate chip ice cream, choose a different flavor and be okay with it. Don't harass or drag down mint chocolate chip ice cream likers with your cynicism and hatred.
I don’t think you actually watched the video.
I agree; but post Mormons R viewed as Sons and Daughters of Perdition: the only people in Mormon Hell.
BYU is doing them a favor.
such lies and untruths you say.....there are many students that are not "Mormon" that attend BYU....and there are many Facility that teach there that are not "Mormon" and of diverse Ethnic backgrounds....you need to do your research better....
You need to watch the video before you criticize it.
@@Glass-Looker I am not criticizing.....I am saying to lay out the facts...tuthfuly....I don't see any one on one interviews in this video with academic and church leaders backing up the statements.........just like the statement below is not true....that some one not of a different faith who was offered a teaching position would have to live with a Mormon family a give up coffee......
Also......They have a strict honor code, regardless if you are a member or not. You break them, you face the consequences. When a student or factuality break a contract or honor code...and get fired or kicked out .....then fess up to it....go some where else.
@@davidwoods267 I have linked the source to the policy in the description.
I have a one on one interview if you would like to listen. I met with the director of the honor code office for about 20 minutes before I withdrew from BYU.
The only policy shared is that an ecclesiastic endorsement is a requirement, and without one, a student is withdrawn. An ecclesiastic endorsement from any church qualifies. So, *IF there are no post-LDS students, it is because they haven't secured an alternative source for their endorsement before officially leaving the church. Not solely because they left the church. You got 3 views out of me; There is ZERO evidence provided that any student ever has secured an ecclesiastical endorsement from an alternative source before ending LDS membership, and had that endorsement denied before removing their membership records. This appears to be a matter of taking the proper steps in the proper order based on the rules that apply to EVERYONE.
I spoke with the director of the honor code office and they told me it would be impossible to continue at BYU if I withdrew from the church.
I have the full recording if you’d like to listen.
Hello!? What don't you fools understand? Private school, private rules. Good grief
The response which they of course deserve is ... No shit, Sherlock.
Hmm, so they agree to guidelines which they supposedly somehow don't comprehend?
And I say, oh really? Everyone knows that would be an asinine conclusion.
I was born and raised Mormon, and most every one that I know was too. I have yet to encounter anyone, ANYONE, including those that actually went to BYU who knew this about BYU. Stop pretending that this is common knowledge that people are just ignoring. It is hidden from people, much like the entirety of the true history behind Mormon truth claims. This church is among the most deceptive religions in existence.
Also just because a private institution can make it's own rules, doesn't mean that people should just shut up and ignore abuse. Legal or not, it is bigotry, plain and simple. I'll call it out all day long. If you don't like it, you knew the rules of CZcams. So why don't you, fool, understand? I'll comment about this all I want to.
Lol Rasband quote including the word conscience. 'Conscience' had been banned several times before, word use and construct allowing self perception.
It makes NO sense whatsoever for any person who leaves the church
to still want to attend BYU. But since it is, after all, a church university, it also makes no sense that the church would wish to allow former Mormons to attend. The Mormon church is not going to chase you down - you students who leave the university - and kiss your hand, and beg you to return to the university. That choice is solely that of the person who departed.
Furthermore ... BYU won't block your transfer of credits to another university. Who are you trying to fool?
There are many non-members that attend BYU.
@@garyjohnson8026 - THAT is a genuine curiosity -
Better universities than BYU? Hardly, especially at the price. BYU isn't pricey compared to most universities.
And it all depends on what your goals and values are. If your goal is to party and raise hell, then BYU is not the place for you.
Actually, BYU WILL block your transcript, preventing you from transferring any credits. The policy is that you lose your ecclesiastical endorsement. If you lose that your transcript is blocked. If you leave the church, it is permanently blocked. You can't just transfer credits to another school. This is what make people stick around and pretend, at least until they can get their credits transferred. For some though, they are too far into a program and transferring would require redoing a lot of course work, so they get stuck living in fear until they graduate. I had my faith crisis while in college too. Fortunately, I was not at BYU. I feel lucky, cause I have known more than one person that did have to go through the live in fear of being discovered phase. It's completely Draconian.
So? Elder Rasband points out that people get to make their choices. What of it? Oh wait. You think that when people make their choices, they shouldn't have to accept the natural consequences of those choices? Why should someone be allowed to attend BYU that chooses to be opposed to it? What I don't get is how BYU accepts all those advocates for LGBTQ lifestyle and things anyway. Why should our tithing dollars be subsidizing their education, only to have them fighting the Church & BYU from within it.
And you wonder why people become so hostile to the church when they leave? Mmmm...
You know that you 100% just assumed that someone leaving the church will automatically start bashing BYU, the church? Isn't there an old saying about self fulfilling prophecies? When you treat people as enemies, they have a tendency to become your enemies.
Also, I see all of the hate you are throwing at the gay community, and it makes me wonder, do you really understand what Jesus taught, like, at all? Are you just hiding behind your religion to make your bigotry feel justified? I was raised Mormon too. This kind of hate is not at all what I learned in Sunday school, nor seminary, nor institute.
Private School = Private Rules. If you refuse to follow the rules you signed up for, you can't complain about the consequences. Also, dude completely takes Rasband's words out of context.
Always research the university you're applying to that is what an open day is for and the university website. BYU has an honour code which is known about all over the world unless you live under a rock.
How is "don't stop believing in this church" a real rule?
@@help4343 Always read the small print of any organsation. If it is a religious school your going to do religious things. Research all your university options. It is what UK Sixth Formers do before filling in their UCAS form.
Nazi Germany had it's own rules too. Should we have just shut up and let them do their thing? Kicking people out of college based solely on their religious affiliation is bigotry, legal or not. BYU and the church should absolutely be called out for it! It's disgusting.
You know for a fact that if someone joined some private institution as a non-Mormon, converted to Mormonism, and then got kicked out for becoming Mormon, you would (rightfully) be appalled by that.
@@brianrosenlof388 - But they didn't get kicked out for their religious affiliation. They got kicked out for breaking their agreements. Quit trying to twist things.
Well...duh
I am forced to stay sealed to adulterous child abusive ex-wife. I am currently sealed to two living women. So much for free agency.
You can get a temple divorce from your former wife.
Wasn't it YOUR choice to get sealed to that adulterous child abusive ex-wife in the first place? Besides, if she is what you say she is, and she doesn't repent, she won't be sealed to you in the end, because she didn't keep her covenants.
You are a liar period .
Wrong.
That's what happens when you teach or study at a University with an Honour code. Do your reserach, go to a open day and then make your decision.
As you can tell from the comment section, there are many that did not know about this policy before, and there are many that still don't believe this policy even exists.
I did not know about this policy when I applied, was admitted, or even while I was at BYU. I only found out about this policy when I was prepared to leave the church. You can claim I was negligent and didn't dive deep into all of the policies, but neither did any of my friends and family that attended BYU; this policy was new to all of them when I told them.
@@Glass-Looker I live in the UK and know that BYU has an honour code of conduct for its students. A simple google is what is needed. People within the church and outside of the church need to start reading the church's general handbook which is online and open to all to read on the church's website. Everyone needs to visit the church's educational places website. Research a university before you go and same with a church you belong too. Every member is responsible for their own membership, testimony and religious understanding. A lot has change within the church regarding policies and policies outside of the church. Everyone has to take charge of their own spiritual pathway in the end.
Lame. If one leaves The LDS or is excommunicated, why would they want to attend BYU?
They would want to continue attending BYU if they’d already been there for 3-4 years and were close to graduating.
@@Glass-LookerIf you decide to leave the church after you graduate, they don't take your degree away retroactively. If you decide as an active student that your honor demands that your name be removed from the records of the church - then that church whose tithing funds have subsidized your education to that point has already documented the prescribed consequences. Your choice: be a hypocrite, fly under the radar, graduate, and then jump ship...or be true to your honor and head for the exit. We can honor your conscience, while holding you accountable to the to the standards you agreed to.
@@JamesWrightLBC I chose to be true to my conscience and I withdrew from BYU in my 9th semester so I could withdraw from the Church. I walked away from BYU after 4 years with no degree, simply because I chose to change my religion.
Such people just want to raise hell, and nothing but -
(Those Mormons who leave the church, and yet still want to attend BYU nevertheless.)
@@scotthullinger4684
They didn't leave before attending BYU, dumbass. They lost faith during
To frame this as a matter of religious freedom is dishonest.
The church massively subsidizes these universities and there are far more qualified applicants than spaces available. Every space taken by one person is to the exclusion of somebody else.
Why does the church subsidize these schools? Because it has a legitimate expectation that X number of graduates will stay in the church to contribute financially and serve organizationally. The membership conditions are a matter of contract-it’s an agreement made beforehand.
This is analogous to attending a military academy with a commitment to serve a certain amount of time in the military and then deciding you want to be discharged from the military half way through but you still wanting to finish your degree at the academy.
Utter nonsense.
Quite a talented mental gymnast we've got here
Edit: I spelled gymnast wrong at first. How embarrasing!
@@aaronchidester806can’t refute, so ad hominem it is.
@@HankRearden Even though arguments in youtube commments section usually go straight to ad hominem, my comment was a joke about your style of argument, not your character. So I don't think it counts as ad hominem
@@HankRearden I'd be down to refute your argument, but I just assumed from past experiences in youtube comment sections that it would be pointless. I'm sure you can relate. But if you're interested, here goes:
If a BYU student realizes they don't believe in the church anymore and wants to change religions, they cannot just switch to paying full tuition while still keeping the rules. This isn't a matter of employment like the military. It's a matter of belief, and should be protected as religious freedom.
Also, BYU isn't an academy for religious training. It's ostensibly an academic university with an LDS faith-friendly environment. The board of directors may hope the school produces faithful lifelong members, but it can't be an accredited university while punishing students for their religious choices unrelated to their education.
The mental gymnastics come in when you pretend that it's crazy to call this a religious freedom problem. They're literally depriving students of opportunities because of a change of religious beliefs.
Switch this to any other belief, and honestly consider if this seems fair to you. What if you were an atheist student at an atheist university, and you found that you believed in Jesus? It would be fair for you to lose your subsidy that you had been given for being an atheist student, but they're kicking you out. You're willing to sign an agreement that you won't proselitize at school, but no such agreement exists. You're being kicked out, no questions asked, and half of your credits won't transfer, so you pretty much have to start from scratch at another university, all because you believe in Jesus. Because they view you as a traitor. Now, maybe the board of directors hoped to produce good atheist students, but does that make their actions fair? Does it make it any less a violation of religious freedom?
I hope you can honestly consider my argument. I look forward to seeing your response.
@@aaronchidester806 ive got no problem with people who want byu to change its policy, but to position it as a matter of religious freedom is ridiculous. No one has a right to attend a private religious school. If someone insists on making the argument anyway, then how does the it not violate byu’s freedom of religion? Compelling a religion to provide education to certain people or compelling a religion in any such manner is a greater affront to religious freedom than merely enforcing contacts/agreements made by every matriculating byu student.
Woe unto them who call good evil and evil good. I've never attended BYU but it's run by the church of JESUS CHRIST of latter day saints. If you believe in Jesus Christ, you'll believe in the leaders of his church. If you believe in the leaders of his church then you'll trust in their actions! It's not segregation, you poor misunderstanding people, it's reserving an organization to be upheld by the principles it was founded upon. If you honestly expect to participate in a party that has a dress code for example, don't be surprised when your friends at the party tell you, "We're so sad you came dressed that way because we really desired for you to be a part of this glorious event" and then politely close the door and deny entrance. THAT is what is being done and it's the person's choice that came that led to the denial of the party, not warped standards of our leadership. Shame on you!
Prove it
BYU has many non Mormon students. the only thing they are required it that they must take a religious class.
"Disaffiliation from [The Church] automatically results in the withdrawal of the student's ecclesiastical endorsement and the loss of good Honor Code standing." This is the official policy; I just added a link to the source in the description of this video.
Post Mormons will embrace Islam, By Taking The Shahadah. And believe that their is no god worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad(PBUH) is his final messenger. Ex Mormons must be invited to learn about Dawah. Inshallah.
Not so !!
If a person asks Islam leaders for help in joining Islam, does that mean they'll ask you if you were a Mormon?
I very seriously doubt it.
David Wood says your just confused,!!! Mad hamamd.
BYU is a university sponsored and partially financed by the CHURCH. That's the whole point.
Meaning it's a religious university, but is surely not specifically a university which exclusively teaches religion. Potential students are interviewed by their bishop to allow them to proclaim their worthiness to attend based on the purposes & goals of the University. So it surely makes NO sense for the university to continue to allow the attendance of students who vocally object to the goals and purposes of the university, and moreover, who actually demonstrate actions & activities which are diametrically opposed to such.
Most post Mormons are not vocal about their views on the church; I would say I am one of the most vocal, but am still respectful with my criticisms.
I’d like to follow up on your comment with a question: Why are atheists allowed to attend BYU but not post Mormons?
@@Glass-Looker - Show me some verifiable proof that avowed atheists are allowed to attend BYU. The whole point is that your claim is bullshit. NOT too surprising -