The Walch Revolver: How 5 Chambers Become 10 Shots
Vložit
- čas přidán 23. 11. 2015
- / forgottenweapons
Consider the problem of the pocket revolver of the 1860s. In order to be small enough to be reasonably concealable and comfortable to carry, it would typically be made in .31 caliber. That's not a lot of firepower...even back in those days when ballistics potency was rather less of a concern to buyers than it is today.But for the person who does want something more than 5 shots of rather small caliber, what is the solution?
Well, John Walch came up with an idea. Superimposed charges were not a new idea, but Walch took that concept and applied it to the pocket pistol. The idea of superimposed charges is that you load two complete sets of powder and projectile into a single chamber, and then have two separate firing mechanisms so that you can fire the front charge first and then the rear charge. This had been used in flintlock rifles for example, but Walch used it to double the capacity of a 5-shot revolver to 10 rounds. His gun had two hammers and a single trigger, which would drop the hammers in the proper order.
While to 10-shot capacity in a small package was a good idea, the gun suffered from some problems. If the rather long flash-tube to ignite the front charge in a chamber became clogged with black powder residue and the rear charge were then fired, the gun could explode. When it did work properly, it was even less powerful than a typical .31 caliber piece, as the double charges had to be a bit smaller than normal to allow space for both in the cylinder.
The guns were used by one company of Michigan Infantry during the Civil War, but never sold very well. Interestingly, they were actually manufactured by Oliver Winchester and the New Haven Arms Company...
Did he fire five, or did he fire six... I don't know, but he's still shooting!
The lower than standard safety margin aside, that is a cool idea.
This brings a whole new dimension to "Do you feel lucky, punk?" I love it.
Now, I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire ten shots or only nine?" Well to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kinda lost track myself. But being this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world and would blow your head clean off, you've gotta ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya, punk?
Did he fire just nine shots or did one of the chambers double fire and he really fired ten?
I count two guns.
@@underdog1252 I mean 50 ae but for the time .... Was that 9 shots? Or maybe 10??? Ruuuuuuun
That must be the gun the cowboys in the movies you see reloading a 6 shooter after shooting more than 6 times. Ha
in western films cowboys only 8 times whithout reload but in mofern films they can shoot 20 times from revolver
What I really love about old guns is how creative some of the mechanisms are.
Todays handguns function all the same, which is really boring. No one comes up with new mechanics anymore.
I wonder if there will ever be another revolutionary design like the Browning locking mechanism.
Well, the guns now have shown to be the more cost effective, market consolidated and everyone is afraid to venture outside of the comfort zone, it's been the same for a long while with cars as well but now Infiniti, Volvo and Mazda aren't as afraid as others to try new engine systems and Tesla kinda revived the market for electrics as well as finally making some commercial use of autonomous driving.
Problem with firearms is that while improved cars put in people the idea of a better future, everyone is scared shitless of firearms and big media coverage is always negative on anything new coming from them. We aren't gonna get big innovations anytime soon, not if this dumb gun scare continues or firearm companies keep being afraid of getting any new product they make banned.
Guns all function the same because we've worked out what works reliably and effectively. There's simply no real advancement to be made with chemical propellant firearms.
@@cdgonepotatoes4219 Dumb gun scare? Wrong. Guns are a luxury, not something people actually need. Meanwhile, the military market wants advancement, and you see it with guns like the Vector.
I'd love to see a modern top break revolver.
@@anzaca1 guns are a right.
Not a luxury.
Ian is the Batman of gun reviewers, he has all the coolest toys!
+Daniel Taylor Where does he get all of these wonderful toys?
That you for the correct quote sir!
Well, he mostly just gets to play with them. He doesn't take them all home.
It's Jesus... Gun Jesus
I was totally expecting a bigger revolver when I saw the video preview picture. lol
The thumbnail?
Im always amazed at the way they designed things to get around a problem in those days before there was a set way to do something... Might not be the most practical, efficient, or in this case safe. But it sure makes for an interesting design!
Thanks for the video Ian!
That would have been fun to see in action back in the day. I bet it turned some heads..... hi-capacity wheelgun, wow.
I wonder how much one of these would have cost back in 1860.
Hey Ian! Man, the guys at Rock Island, well they rock!! I'm so glad that you have been able to work with them and James Julia. It's the highlight of my life right now to watch the various weapons that you educate us about. It's also so cool that James Julia and Rock Island have seen how lucrative it would be for them to partner with you! I mean shit, I am even thinking about trying to get one of these "collector" guns some day, and it's all cause of this channel. Great to see a company and an educator like yourself working together so fluidly! Love it!!
+Cory Mcclure Thanks!
HEY! That's my first name! GIVE IT BACK!!!
HAhaha!! hello fellow Cory!! Always good to meet another! Keep that name safe. There's only a few of us around! And at least your's is spelled the "proper" way (jk) instead of the vile corEy. Cory's with an E are always evil, gotta watch out for them ;)
there's a CorEvil in my class. He must die. And the worst part is his last name is Hail. So in my class there is a Cody Hale, Cory Hale (me), and a Corey Hail. And we all sit in the front row. It must be hell for my teacher
Really?? hahah that's funny as hell. Well watch out for the corEy. he's definitely got something up his sleeve ;)
Very interesting weapon. Your enthusiasm for the history of these curios of the past is infectious. I'm not even a firearms hobbyist, but I do love history.
The machining on these beasts is just stunning. (My background on old stuff is cast iron letterpress machines, one of which in my shop is from 1876.) The use of metals other than steel or iron is always so damn pretty. (Brass doesn't work well in letterpress. Wears too quick & bends too easily. Other'n that, it's still sweet looking.)
M1 thumb, Ian?
+Mark Deavult Was thinking the same myself. :)
man this gun is cool, and i love the trigger design on it
Very cool and interesting design. Keep the black powder guns coming! Thanks!
really like your work have been a fan for years now...thanks
Chain fire comes to mind,but not bad for design. Interesting, thank you!
Thanks Ian, that week wait was well worth it!
Very unique gun never saw one of those before, that's why I love these videos always something new to learn. That would be fun to shoot Im sure.
Very cool, I like the "two round burst" function :)
This sort of unordinary gun is exactly the reason I'm subscribed to this channel.
That thing is so cool. If I were in the civil war or alive in that time period I'd definitely try and get that as a back up to a larger revolver probably a walker or 1860 army. It would be awesome if a company were to revamp this design and come out with a model. I'd buy one. Great video as always I just love these interesting guns you show.
It has a pleasant look to it. The long cylinder gives it a hint of elegance.
what an extraordinary pistol . Never heard of such a thing.
Wow! That's a pretty nifty concept.
really cool gun, thanks for the video
Imagine having a chain fire with this piece. Thing would probably just blow up.
+Stephanie Torres with the design of 'chain fire' in mind, i don't think it would be catastrophic. a few more might go downrange, but it seems as if the design would at least keep things in the right direction. this (to me) seems like a redundant design that would fare well with chain fires.
The first thing that came to mind, while reading the expanded info, was Metal Storm. Interesting video.
+Michael Smith Also, how strong those hammers are; they chewed that pencil up, rather nicely. And it looks like there is one piece missing.
Beautiful firearm.. Very nice lines. Reminds me of the little NAA revolvers :)
Similar proportions to the .22wmr ones
Very nice and very interesting! It's cool that the auction-house lets you view their stuff - on the other hand: It's of course free advertisement for them!
That's one fine piece.
beautiful pistol.
Holy hell, that design is glorious.
So cool to see the super imposed "stacked" projectile revolver, especially from, the 1860's!!! I know there had been duckfoot flintlocks and other black powder guns that used the same method in a less refined fashion, But how long was it until a modern manufacturer actually revisited this idea? Thats almost 100 years until our military started really taking an interest in this idea and tinkering with it, yet it wasnt until the early 2000's that we started hearing about metal storm and how it was "The future of war". Why do you think it took so long for the idea to come back around, and then took so many years of development to produce a working weapon that then was cancelled after so much promise?
Walch Navy was Louis L'Amour's favorite trick gun.
+57WillysCJ
No kidding, I can't believe these are real. I thought they were a made up gun behest to the world of fiction. What a piece of history!
@@thetriode Life is generally stranger than fiction as most authors feel compelled to at least make their inventions reasonably probable :D A tinkerer with a shed and some metal working tools can do astonishing things if they put enough time, money and effort into it... even if it never may turn a commercial success or even working well, a lot is technically forcable.
Very intersting!
When i read the title i thought this may work a bit like the turret revolver, and have the firing mechanism inside the cylinder, so that every bullet would have its own chamber, you just would have to take out the cylinder and put it in from the other side.
To prevent the mechanism from fiering the bullets that are directed at you somehow, the opposite chambers could be set apart for 1/2 of their diameter, leaving enough space behind them for the hammer, which until the next shot would slide inside the cylinder and below the chambers.
Of course the hammer could become a problem since it would be in the middel and you would have to slide the cylinder over it. If the revolver jams you may not be able to remove the cylinder.
btw.:Was there ever anything like the thing I just described?
(As you point out Ian) What could possibly go wrong? :) I think the problem is more psychological, as I for one would be continuously worried about using this pistol - that must have had an effect on sales (and probably why this approach is rare). The idea of having a quick-fire second shot, however, is appealing...And 10 shots! Woof! Thanks for an interesting video.
Just a really cool idea
A chain fire would be one hell of a bad day with his thing. It's pretty cool though. Great vid.
Very pretty gun.
I really like that trigger design. Ian should have talked more about that. It is different.
I'd love to see this stuff in action
Very interesting, I notice no loading lever under the barrel, so I assume it came with some sort of ramrod, must have been a pain to load in combat, and if you lost the rod.
Friend, I would be concerned with the possibility of an unnoticed misfire in the middle of a high-speed shootout.
However, Julian Hatcher did some rather extensive testing of double charges in muzzle loading guns. I haven't read it in many years and so I don't remember exactly but his general conclusion was that seating a well rammed down bullet and powder charge on top of another was not nearly as likely to blow up a firearm as many suppose. I believe that he had to go to three ball and charge loads before he got any perceivable damage.
Be careful where you quote that. Years ago-when General Hatcher's remarks were much fresher in my mind-I almost had an ardent muzzle loader try to whip my ass…
So the topic is a sore one to many.
…..RVM45
8:06
Ten shot, five cylinder
Well, that degraded quickly
Great video as always. Would you ever try to shoot something like this?
That is such a cool pistol!! Is there a way to view the internals of it and the way it works mechanically?
Would be curious to learn how they went about machining that cylinder in the 1860s.
I'm very curious how these were loaded. Precision for the "first" round would have to be very important to insure the "second" round lines up properly. As there's no loading lever, was some sort of external tool provided?
John Reynolds my (late) thought exactly; my first idea would be a ramrod with an index mark or pin, to ensure the rear charge is far enough back.
Super cool!
Have you ever seen a Confederate musket only markings are Tanner&Cie? All I know about the gun is that it is(allegedly) Belgian parts assembled in New Braunfels, TX or around Austin, TX. This gun has been with my family since the civil war and my father and I would love to learn anything you know about the history of this gun. Thanks for all the videos and please keep up the good work!
Brilliant!
This seems a better arrangement than on their "naval" revolver. I wonder why they went to the double-trigger system, which could more easily go wrong...
I'd love a replica of this type of gun. Very cool.
Id like a toy to give to my nephew, maybe BuzzBee could make a blaster out of it.
Great Concept! I would like a modern replica in stainless steel. With the harder steel I would shoot it as a five-shot , filling the chambers to capacity with powder. I have done a lot of testing with black powder and I believe it is near impossible to cause a fatal wound will a 31 caliber pocket pistol. When I load up my pocket pistol to the Max Capacity the most energy that I can generate is about 30 foot pounds. I would like to know if there's actually any historic record of anybody actually being killed with a 31 caliber pocket pistol.
Love these videos. Near the end, you said "short of metal storm" what does that mean?
Metal Storm is a gun design which uses a stack of charges and bullets put behind each other in a single barrel to be fired by electrical ignition. It has a ridiculously high rate of fire, several thousand rounds per minute IIRC and you basically replace the complete barrel or bundle of barrels as field reloading is hard if not impossible.
as far as i know it's not yet anywhere commercially available and they still are trying to make it reliably work, but the concept is already legendary...
This is just a crazy idea
How does the sequential trigger work, please?
Hey man! I like your video's, but I got a question. I watched the M1 Enforcer carbine and its classed as a pistol, I read some comments and if you add a stock its a rifle. But if the C96 Mauser has a stock, does that mean its a rifle too?
+Privatekillah Yes, adding a stock to a gun with a barrel less than 16" long makes is a "short barreled rifle" by law, and thus it must be registered. However, a handful of guns have been exempted from this law, primarily early pistols when used with original-manufacture stocks. The C96 is one of those guns that is exempt.
What would one do it one fired off one shot and didn't want to fire off a second, but instead wanted to either put the gun away or be ready to fire two? Trying to keep track of what's loaded and what isn't would seem difficult, especially in any kind of stressful situation.
Ian, have you ever had the chance to look at the M198 Duplex?
Neat idea. I am sure if firearms development was not so blistering fast at that time, the idea would had gained in popularity. At that time, a great idea had a short shelf life as another great idea would be far superior coming soon.
I may have seen one of these at a firearms store (1990's). It was hanging on the wall so I couldn't see if it had two hammers. I thought it was a revolver firing .410 shotgun; which would have been cool, except for the broken wrist...
almost like some steampunk version of metal storm. brilliant concept from that time. would love to see it shot... but doubt that will happen.
0:28 Looks like we are in for something magical!!
...and yet another great opportunity for a two gun match.
...Only this time you can do it with one gun... cool!
Thats cool
I'd love to get a look at the 6-shot Navy version if one ever comes up for auction. So what's your understanding of the universally tiny rear sight notches back then? Was this for the supposed precision of a smaller notch, or was it just expected that you'd really be point shooting everything, all the time?
+elektro3000 I think it's mainly that sights were only used at long range. Most shooting was done just by generally pointing the gun.
Im a bit confused on these superimposed charges. Wouldn't the blast from the first charge harm the bullet and compress the ball/powder behind it?
Seems like a recipe to lose your hand in the panic of battle. It would be interesting to note how many Michiganders lost fingers in that Civil War infantry company.
Machining that touch hole that goes down the cylinder and then inwards must have been difficult.
Any risk of ATF considering it an MG, as a single pull can fire it twice?
I do not understand how it is possible that the blowback from the front bullet charge doesn't make the charge behind it explode
Same way a roman candle doesn't explode, I guess
Historical roots for metal storm weapon systems.
What's to stop you from cocking only the left-hand hammer and thus fire only the rear ball?
I would assume only your brain. They didn't care much for the stupid back then. No "hot coffee" on coffee cups
Double tap back in the day was also a thing...always double tap just to make sure lol
So *this* is how Hand Cannons in Destiny have the uncanny ability to carry more than 6 shots in their cylinders! A great example would be the Hawkmoon, which has 13 Shots when fully upgraded.
Amazing title
darn clever non the less
Cool gun but how many hours does it take to load?
I don't see any bolt stops on the cylinder. How does the revolver lock up after indexing, Ian?
+GuyKappe From what he said in the video, this example at least has issues with that.
+Amperzand Yes, but even if it was in working order, I'm not sure how it would operate without bolt stops. Clearly it doesn't have a bolt in the frame under the cylinder, so... does it have a rotating peg and key at the back of the cylinder like a Paterson or a LeMat?
GuyKappe Good question.
Is the pencil not one of Ian's "precision gunsmithing tools"?
I wonder: with the quick, long pull of the trigger (as you probably would if you were panicked), with the hammers falling at the same time, wouldn't the first charge's percussion ignition have a further travel and thus fire last?
Or is the minute difference in the timing of the hammers falling enough to offset that?
+Kyle Iverson The difference should be enough to prevent it.
+Forgotten Weapons I still don't get how you load it. Does it have two wads and or three?
Very cool, could it be considered the first gun with a burst fire?
+marzcorp Not really, volley guns have been around for a very long time.
Sweet!
I'd like to think that when Walt refused to pay that the settlement of the suit was in the form of hot lead
Sometimes I really miss the old Forgotten Weapons theme song.
+Sedan57Chevy
Yeah, what happened to it?
+Sedan57Chevy My neighbours are glad he dropped that intro - so I don't wake them up at 4 am anymore.
+Heather Spoonheim I am your neighbor, and I want it back.
+Greene Fieldmann Uhm, my neighbours don't speak English, and if they did they would speak the type in which neighbour is spelled properly.
Heather Spoonheim The "u" in "neighbour" stands for "U can't own guns."
If they worked safely and were reliable I'd love to have the twelve shot and ten shot ones. Even now I'd love to have them.
Hey arms manufacturers, if we ever get reliable caseless ammunition, I expect an updated version of this design. Say, six chambers, and 2 rounds of .45acp per chamber?
this revolver looks amazing. might be a bit hard to reload tho.
+GameSquid (Florian Himsl) I imagine the designer was banking on everyone else being dead by the time reloading was necessary. ^^
oh god the real situation, haha
what if you miss a lot.
regardless you ll still have to reload it, eventually
GameSquid (Florian Himsl)
Well, even if you run out of ammunition, you still have a nice 2 lb chunk of metal to hit someone with. Or you could just carry another, and wipe out an entire criminal gang.
they might have guns too! but you know most of the times guns are fired will be outside of combat, for training or testing. you want to avoid combat as much as possible in reality, but you definitively want to have a gun, and shoot it too, if you re in the wild west.
GameSquid (Florian Himsl)
Words of wisdom if I've ever heard them. =)
Its like a proto metalstorm system, except more exciting for the user.
I'm starting a new slackitivst group called PETOIT - People for the Ethical Treatment Of Ian's Thumbs. Basically we are going to start an online petition begging Ian to stop handing Garand rifles. Is anyone interested in getting in at the ground level?
+Heather Spoonheim Interestingly, I have never gotten M1 thumb. What you see is always from something else. :)
+Forgotten Weapons Everything else... :D
+Forgotten Weapons As long as you're not getting the Ljungman-thumb, we're all happy.
+Forgotten Weapons Well, whatever it is, we demand that you start taking better care of yourself! Won't somebody think of the thumbs!?
If you fired both charges simultaneously, wouldn't it be like a black powder duplex round?
Would it be possible to cock and fire the left hammer without cocking the right one?
I wonder when someone is going to make a "Metal Storm" style ammunition pistol or revolver...
ah i was gonna say what would happen if the back got fired first but I assume the only way that could happen was if you lost the percussion cap on the first charge by way of falling off and fired the back charge after. If it would push everything out or plug it like a wile e coyote plan gone wrong
Aceleratti Incredibillis
first thing that comes to mind is a replica design in a Walker 47 for SASS/ cowboy action with 20 grain charges if You could get it past the libitiy liarers er lawers
Did it work well?
The story behind this gun is more ridiculous than the plot to "100 years: the film you will never see".
That's bad ass.
If you fire quickly you get .31 duplex. Is there a small delay between both hammers falling or is it instantaneous?
+Joshua Lansell-Kenny There is a delay.
+이동연 Wtf...
+Skunkdog Gro he used google translate that's why the phrase is so weird