Dev Log: Talking to Chris Wilson about Path of Exile
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- čas přidán 12. 07. 2022
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Path of Exile: www.pathofexile.com/
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Episode 1 of the new series 'Dev Log', talking to game developers about game development!
I sat down with Chris Wilson from Grinding Gear Games, the team behind Path of Exile, and talked about the new player experience, narrative versus mechanical design, how you respect a players time, and how you keep a game stable after 30+ expansions.
Thank you to the Patreon supporters and Twitch subs who keep the channel alive. - Zábava
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Its so cool seeing Josh move up, I can only hope to see how far you go. Never stop being yourself.
Can we move up and split the patrion supporters names to 3-4 pages
@@Arvl. nope. It shall forever be shrinking text lol.
@@robertsharp1511 this is the way
He can move up, but he can never become true first monitor content! The graspy tendrils of the second monitor are inescapable no matter how much one might attempt to escape!
@@NeoZhinzo who needs to be first monitor content when you are the master of the second monitor multiverse
Hearing the head of this game suggest that it would be great if I took breaks to play other games or have a balanced life is the best advertisement for path of exile that I've heard yet. When I repair my PC I may finally give it a try. It's so unusual for the guy at the top to respect my time and talk about players like people.
It's how the game is made. GGG understands that each new league isn't always for each player. And they're not out to capture everyone to play the game. They're a company that understands their niche and stays in their lane.
There are only two developer heads that I believe in this. Chris Wilson of PoE. And Yoshi P of FF14. And that's because they're transparent and keep the community involved. If there are questions, they understand that talking time out like an hour of a day to answer them all does more good than not doing so.
@@ArcDragoon bro i was thinking ff14 the entire time and about to reply the same. yoshi and them are the only other dev team i've really heard say 'play something else its perfectly ok we will have something exciting for you to come back to'
chris wilson is one of the rare developer that actually still cares
I highly recommend watching Chris Wilsons talk at the GDC back in 2019. Very interesting stuff.
czcams.com/video/tmuy9fyNUjY/video.html
Edit: Josh actually mentions this GDC talk in the video.
That line also stood out for me and it is exactly how I feel playing PoE over the last years. I never have a bad feeling quiting the game because there no pesky log in boni, dailys etc. And Im always excited when the first infos of the new League come up.
One of the things that made me fall in love with POE was that it does not attempt to be for everyone - and in doing so, it manages to be perfect for some people.
But a dumb Elden Ring reviewer told me _”Games should be designed for everyone!”_ You mean he is, gasp, clueless? /s =P
One of the strengths of PoE, FF14, and Elden Ring is that the devs know their target audience and thus the game can provide a meaningful unique experience with depth. Both PoE and ER reward you for “git gud”. With time, knowledge, and skill, the rewards for overcoming means something for the player especially HC SSF.
PoE has _numerous_ problems but the foundation is a good one and is why it has lasted for a decade.
Is PoE for everyone? No, and that is OK. Play different ARPGs so you can find something you like:
*Diablo 3:* _Drinking_ man’s game.
*Path of Exile:* _Linking_ man’s game.
*Grim Dawn:* _Thinking_ man’s game.
Trooooow. Believe it or not. I've been playing diablo 2 since grade 3 until i finished a master's degree. But then my brother told me that d2's devs actually made a better d2, it's called path of exile. And indeed, it's the best for me.
@@immanuelcalunod8518 d2 devs ? weren't they just d2 fans ?
@@MichaelPohoreski The only really prohibitive aspect about PoE is the time investment. 95% of what you'll be doing is holding down left click in a direction while slowly accumulating bigger numbers in the form of levels, skills, and gear. I wouldn't exactly call that a "git gud" kinda game.
PoE is a lot of fluff when it really all boils down to "click, explode screen, continue"* which is where I think a lot of folks sour at the game. There's all these needlessly complex systems(skill web, league mechanics, etc) you HAVE to learn and it's all for the purpose of gameplay so simplified that it's about as compelling as duckhunt.
*There are more specialized builds like Labyrinth runners that focus on speed and/or durability and boss killers that focus on raw single target output, but these are not something anyone sub-300 hours should endeavor to play. They require a lot of game knowledge and most of them are extremely expensive due to how much more consistent loot is vs mapping.
@@immanuelcalunod8518 GGG at one time employed a Diablo 2 _fan,_ BrotherLaz, who wrote the Median XL mod for D2, as a freelance item designer for PoE. No D2 devs were involved with PoE as far as I know.
Awesome interview. So nice to see someone who’s not a 16hr a day PoE streamer interviewing Chris for 4hrs about the things that mainly affect them, but instead, someone who is interested in Chris himself, GGG as a whole, and how their lives look as game devs and the twists and turns they navigate through the lifetime of the game and the company.
First time Chris isnt talking to a bitter guy trying to nail him on an issue and have rhetoric around "admit that you fucked up admit it admit it admit it" on a niche issue that would get fixed if it reached the Devs.
I’m guessing you haven’t seen the Ziz interview from a couple years ago. Just a personal interview type of thing.
But to be honest game dev talks aren’t that interesting to most people, it’s just business with a nerdy slant. His player base wants to hear about the game, not business decisions.
@@burkles4456 Actually no, I haven’t. I’ve watched a lot of the Baeclast ones. Could you drop me a link?
This is such a good interview because you can tell how passionate and educated on games they both are
Chris is one of the most articulate human beings I've ever heard. Incredibly knowledgeable about his game even though he is in charge of the business side of things. I could listen to this man talk for hours.
Yeah he's amazing, imagine how cool it could be to have a long chat with him outside of cameras, no pressure and clashback on what he says, i'd love to pick his brain on so many thing and hear the unfiltered version of it, just play the game with him and see how he genuinely reacts to things in his own game. His words and ideas are usually very clear and easy for me to understand, it's great
That is a really good point, he is very quick on translating his thoughts to words!
He is living an breathing ARPG. Its like if you ask someone who are you feeling or how was your day. Thats the same for chris if you ask him about his oppinion on how to design a game in regards to depth vs complexity.
He voices The Envoy in game, its fucking great.
he has done quite a bit of interviews and stuff over the course of the game's lifetime.
here is one of his talks at GDC that is a good one imo.
czcams.com/video/tmuy9fyNUjY/video.html
This is a first time in my looong gamer history where an interview with the developer actually peaked my interest of trying out their game.
Good interview, thanks Josh
It's an awesome game, and a lot of fun. Hope you enjoy it when you check it out
the main reason I play poe as much as I do, the devs are the best!
best ethical f2p game in history
Its not that good. Boring.
@@judgeprime3730 you are entitled to call it boring if you managed to complete it.
As a long time PoE player and content consumer, this is one of the best interviews with Chris I've ever seen. He's always great but the content of the questions here really showed what a great interviewer Josh is and how fantastic and honest Chris is. I don't watch a lot of PoE content anymore, I just play the leagues and watch the odd ziz and Palsteron video, as an old head jaded fan this really warmed my heart.
Right there with you, I'm usually a 24 or 36 challenge player for leagues and this is the best I've seen Chris handle an interview. Josh was amazing as well as usual, and I absolutely wasn't expecting this.
Yeah maybe because every single question in the other interviews are like: Are you gonna nerf this? Are you gonna buff that? That sort of question could never achieve anything, I mean it's always echoing whatever the community was going on at that particular time so the answer is always either it is on our to do list or it is not gonna happen. So basically a glorified tease for the patch notes.
That question about "cashing out" people's trust was great.
It was loaded but you knew Chris would handle it well, specially mentioning tencent by name.
Good on both.
I also like how some of the questions were a reference to Blizzard, so that people can compare a more modest company like GGG to them. The question about releasing content that makes old content obsolete was a reference to WoW and companies cashing out people's trust was a reference to Diablo Immor(t)al.
Diablo Immortal is the cash out of trust on Diablo franchise. Blizzard just got too greedy and face the worst backlash ever.
Garena was pretty bad too. I'd say even worse than public views on Tencent, at it's time.
Before PoE ultimately fused Russian servers with the rest of the world... there was so much rage and anger, more so than the Tencent acquisition. But Russia was also apart of China, which was eventually separated. Russia can now play with everyone, and China lives in their own little bubble with pay2win crap that can't reach global servers.
If anything, people grew to love Russia being merged with the global servers because of what they didn't want. Bots. This is because real people are slow when trading with, or can be afk, or too busy in a map or whatever. Bots though will trade instantly, they're reliable, and on average a bot will scam you less than a real person. They're always there, they're always in trade mode.
This made getting items easier and faster, and then people just forgot about the Garena(pre) merge.
What are you talking about? That was such an easy question. All Chris had to say was "yeah we're not terrible people so we don't do that"
@@loglog7 Chris is an a-hole, a massive a-hole, Chris is SINGLE handedly the reason the game doesn't have 10 trillion players at any given time.
I love how these two mirror eachother.
Josh says no to popular content creator conventions and strives for what is fun to him and viewers instead of what will be most popular or profitable.
Chris says no to popular game development conventions and strives for what is fun for the devs and the players instead of what will be most popular or profitable.
Both win tons of respect.
I'd add that Chris understands that enjoyable games have at least as much potential for profit as predatory games, with the upside that the former grow for all of the right reasons. (edit: grammar)
@@nurvus4078 Having good will and trust means that they can excite old players to play again. Compare this with having to market a lot all the time in order to scam new people who play on average 3 hours. The first means that you can grow and improve the game, the second means you'll always be on a decline and you will have to spend a ton on marketing.
reminds me a bit of steve jobs' "people don't know they want the Next Big Thing until you invent it and show it to them" philosophy
sometimes instead of chasing data and trends it helps to have a clear creative vision
@@ryanbach9929 Ehhh lets be real here. PoE was born out of the dissappointment of diablo 3, on launch, there was not at least for the average player, much difference between PoE and Diablo 2, which they were emulating. So I don't think the steve jobs quote applies here. They're just a great developer, that keep their players at the center of their minds. They did a lot over the years to differentiate PoE from the diablo franchise, but it was born out of a desire to relive D2.
@@nurvus4078 I don't agree. Chris understands that predatory games have potential for much more profit, certainly in the short term. And that doesn't matter. There's more to life than just making money in the short term.
Man, when Josh does any talks or interviews it’s always to the point and always flowing. I look forward to more talks with other devs.
Maybe do a regular thing with Chris Wilson? Maybe not every league but a once in a while catch up kinda thing?
As a kiwi game dev working in a small studio, Chris is an inspiration and a shining example of the type of developer I strive to be. Also he just genuinely makes me really proud to be a kiwi 😅
Every game dev should look up to this man regardless of their nationality. Only free game ive been happy to support through mtx ever. I still feel like i owe GGG more money
Woah. Coding bird? Kinda novel concept if you ask me.
(it was a joke, don't kill me pls)
@@VasiliyOgniov a fruit! you can tell because he’s bald with tiny little hair all over.
So you strive to sell out to china
The game introduced us foreigners into the wonderfully thick kiwi accents.
What a gigachad of a developer, great job with the interview Josh
@blargh Lmao, you're sitting in the comments crying about josh and the game, and how a developer wants money, go get a job.
@@DsgSleazy even better, he can’t link any proof, so even he knows he’s telling BS
@blargh forgot your tinfoil hat
@blargh Forgot your troll face emoticon.
@blargh Yo I watch all the media released for every league since harbinger, can't remember Chris ever lying about the game. The ONLY thing I can think of is the microtransactions not looking great on all classes besides for the one shown off.
How can someone not like Chris Wilson? Great bloke, always enjoy listening to his interviews.
this just auto-played on my tv because i love Josh’s “Worst MMO Ever” series
Never played PoE but damn! This makes me want to. Such a great interview in terms of prepared questions, and in-depth answers from a clearly passionate dev.
Awesome work, as always. I’ll be trying PoE out!
Same happened to me. It auto-played and I was about to change it but the conversation immediately sucked me in!
I wish I could play Poe again for the first time… it’s so good.
Forewarning, PoE isn't all rainbows and sunshine. It's got severe content bloat, crafting is basically only a thing for the 1%, and the grind is VERY real.
Not to say it isn't a great game, I just don't think it's very enjoyable for folks that don't meet the extreme time demands required to fully explore everything PoE has to offer. 2,046.1 hours, last played Feb 2021, just in case this comment needed some backing. If any patches got put in to resolve those 3 problems in the last year and a half, I haven't heard anything about it.
The only complaint I have is there isn't matchmaking for parties. Unless you have pals who like POE you'll end up soloing a majority of the game.
I've gone back to that game about 5 times and had a good month or two of gameplay each time. The skill tree is initially a little intimidating but fairly quickly you discover the build is everything in this game and that's where the replay ability comes in and the complexity becomes fun rather than overwhelming.
As someone that worked for Westwood Studios, back in the day, and had a small part in working on Command & Conquer his line about "Person that grew up playing Command & Conquer ... proper gamers here." just put a big old smile on my face.
Westwood games were amazing, thats an irreplaceable legacy u guys did
Nox tho.
This man's personality is the reason I'm gonna give it a chance. Heck, I'll probably buy a thing or two just to show my support.
Don't be scared by the complexity of the systems. It's really good once you get over the visual overwhelmingness of it.
I was just thinking I'll give it another go based solely how he's presenting himself and his product
You don't even have to do it for Chris (even though he is a God of the gaming community), PoE speaks for itself. The start is rough for sure but once you're in you are in for life! Good luck
@@ManikMiner155 I currently don't have a pc, is the playstation version any good?
@@DUNNY14465465473 I tried it a while back and it was quite laggy on my PS4 Pro, but it could be better now or you could probably adjust graphics settings… I didn’t check.
Chris is so scared of the Worst MMO Ever episode about PoE that he came to Josh in advance to befriend him before he does it
I think the best part is that he'd fully admit the weaknesses of the game if there is an episode.
Lmao
That video would just be a screenshot of the Skrill tree. I played PoE for a bit but pffff its just too much for me hahahaha
@@iopy12 the passive skill tree is the easiest mechanic in the game lol
@@AlastorNightheart lol, true. Literally everything else is a fucking calculus proof compared to that big tree.
7:00 Lol what stability
So ironic. And all positives comments of this video are laughable now.
Listening to this dude actually care about the game he is making has made me download POE, great vid. Very keen to see more Dev Log.
Unfortunately he is completely disconnected from the actual state of the game or what the players actually want.
@@rirtunsasgi2626 nah
@@rirtunsasgi2626 nop
@@rirtunsasgi2626 That's not true.
@@rirtunsasgi2626 what "you" actually want maybe. dont speak as if you speak for us all
Chris is an amazingly nice guy. I ran into him at GP Vegas a few years ago for MTG and we just talked about how PoE has changed our lives and how seemingly everything cool ties back to MTG in some way lol. He's just one of those rare devs who genuinely loves his games and players.
If y'all haven't tried PoE yet, I can't recommend it enough.
The only reason poe is so great is because chris wanted to create the best ARPG, and he did, its just sad that people dont give it more chances. Fingers crossed poe 2 will bring it to mainstream
@@arturvegis2571 They made it take longer and longer to progress/setup for mid-late game. The time difference it takes you to setup atlas in 2.x compared to 3.x is insane. They made campaign far more tedious than it should be.
Completing the Atlas is ok, if it takes a player a couple weeks to do it’s fine. But, getting/crafting good gear, especially when you have a bad RNG can destroy your league. It doesn’t work for most people I’d say. You can easily spend a hundred ex just for 1 mod and it’s kinda ridiculous if you ask me. PoE should not become as simple as D3 but it should be less tedious imo.
Chris only make poe just to fund his MTG addiction LOL /j
@@DamienBaka I dont think youre playing the same game as the rest of us. Ive spent less than 100ex on my current build, including the +5gems gloves I crafted myself, and the Ashes amulet. That one mod you obviously cant do without must be a real humdinger.
My only real critisism of this league is that recombninators have hollowed out the trade economy such that there are no mid-tier items availalble, like tier 1 es on rings et al. That said, ive made a metric f-ton of currency selling these specific mods.
Just adding to the choir: Great interview, Chris spoke well and passionately about his game, and Josh, your questions were far from the rote ones I'm sure Chris hears in every interview. I hope that Magic game happens for you both!
I don't even play PoE, but found this to be an very interesting and sympathic talk. Gotta be happy for PoE players to have this dude in charge of their game.
so true
as a poe player I literally cannot wait for chris to step down or be removed from the company
he is actively destroying the game due to his "vision" (make a worse diablo 2 instead of a new game that could be fun)
@@selectionn you are mostly alone in that sentiment. What a bad take, I cant see this ever being a logical conclusion. Especially with the fact that chris has stepped up to revisions done to the game, by the head of development and design ,as his own, gotten shit for it by the vocal minority of the community just to help calm down said people and get right to feedback. You may be a poe player, but your level of understanding that game would not reflect that.
@@selectionn bro you are NOT a path of exile player, stop talking crap with lies written all over your existence, please go to the diablo community and talk this crap, not here.
@@FereniaO damn bro, you killed him
This interview felt like a 10 minutes video, was just amazing, the amount of information and knowledge shared, good will, a nice talk, love the philosophy
This was a lovely interview to watch. I originally started playing Path of Exile as a teenager who saw the Alpha/Beta reviewed on Good Game (an Australian game review TV show) nearly 10 years ago. What drew me to it was seeing that skill tree, tempting you to tame it. But even more than that, was the idea of a free to play game that wasn't a money pit.
Chris is spot on in managing player trust. I distinctly remember being really worried when Tencent bought GGG, but look at where we are now. GGG managed to navigate their player base, a corporate overlord, and their own desires in game creation.
I cannot wait for PoE Mobile and I especially cannot wait for PoE 2. See you in the beaches Exile!
I was in a similar boat many years ago. I initially picked up PoE because it was basically Diablo, a game I wanted to play, but it was free and I was a broke teenager. I played the game for a while without really knowing what I was doing and failed miserably, resulting in me quitting.
Later on when I had money I tried Diablo 3, and enjoyed it, but realized that it doesn't even hold a candle to PoE. The game just feels like an empty shell. Since I was a bit older and smarter, I gave PoE a second try and that was when it took hold of my life. It became my most played game by thousands of hours and I lived and breathed the game. The best part was it cost me nothing to play it. I got several hundred hours of enjoyment before I put even a dollar into it, which honestly made me want to give them money as a thanks.
At this point I've put a couple hundred dollars into MTX's and other QoL things but it was worth every penny for the years of entertainment the game gave me. I love listening to Chris talk about his game and its clear that GGG stands out when compared to all the other companies that are just trying to make a quick buck.
oh yeah I miss good game, Bajo streams on twitch if you ever want to seem him play modern games.
I had the exact same introduction to PoE, Good Game with that chick and the other dude who is now a twitch streamer. Free to play games were very rare back then and I didnt have money for WoW or anything, most of the stuff i played was pirated.
Chris is my absolute favorite developer out there. He's so passionate and knowledgeable and I love what he and GGG have created
Great interview, looking forward to more of these
I never get tired of 2 people talking: Chris Wilson and yourself, Josh. This is a great interview with quality insights to what makes great games, great companies and great management. Thank you Chris for delivering an ARPG experience that puts any other competitor to shame each and every year, and thank you Josh for making this video!
everyone telling him to ask questions, this is pre recorded video
Ask him why it’s prerecorded
You can't fix stupid.
No, no, no. Josh can see into the future. He sees our comments and asks them.
I have nothing to add to this yet i know this comment will explode soon
As a perennial Path of Exile player, I can't get enough of hearing Chris Wilson talk about games and development. Thanks for the video, you did a great job directing this conversation!
This was a fantastic interview. Looking forward to seeing more content like this.
This is really insightful! I look forward to more dev logs
Just a brilliant discussion, and so refreshing to hear this from a dev. Definitely makes me want to play PoE again.
Treat yourself.
As a fresh and pretty casual PoE player (60h, act4, taking my time) I absolutely love this guy, the vision of this game and his approach toward the community. Great questions Josh
The only thing about it that makes me sad is that I, also, am extremely late to this amazing party! What a great game and developer.
@@s1nister9999 We're late, yes, but can't say i'm sad. I'm rather glad i found this amazing game trough Josh, Asmon & Preach. So far no guides and having a blast, ofc i ask the occasional question in game (couldn't figure out elemental defenses) Helpfull players everytime
@@s1nister9999 Honestly, that's the beauty of POE, you're not behind because you can play through most of the seasons content at some point or another.
Nothing but respect for the CEO and his dev team seems to have his finger on the pulse of his community and wont implement something based off of data that may ruin player experience just because data said so.
@@rasmachris94 Exactly, I don't feel like i'm behind either since PoE doesn't push you in any direction, sure i would love to build and try out 'the current thing' but i'll get there and will encounter lots of content and systems to dive into on the way, it's not like other games which push you towards that specific current thing
Dont let the age of the game fool you. Youre definitely not late to the party.
Great interview! Thoroughly impressed with Chris's answers to your top shelf questions, bravo to you both.
That was an awesome interview. Thank you
Gotta love how Chis talks, eloquent and understandable even when using specific terms. It's like he knows how you know what that means and it's also the best word explain that idea. It's like he knows you're not a stupid wallet vegetable.
Honesty and an ability to communicate combined with respect for the player.
It's no wonder he's become synonymous with good game designers.
@@lw8882 He speaks honestly and with us players in mind
Thats something realy rare these days
All hail Chris, all hail tocans
lmfao wallet vegetable
This was a FANTASTIC interview. I was thoroughly excited to see you interviewing Chris Wilson as Path is one of my favorite all-time action RPGs that I continually return to on a yearly basis.
Fantastic work, Josh. Looking forward to listening to more of these!
very insightful conversation ! my thanks to both !
An intelligent interviewer, great and relevant questions with a developer that appears transparent, honest about their way of work, mistakes and goals?
I don't even play PoE but not going to lie I'm considering it after this interview.
It's an amazing game with so much depth, and you literally have nothing to lose because it's 100% free, no content locked like lets say SWTOR, no DLC, it's one of the best game out there.
Just take your time and have fun, and if you're not having fun, ask yourself why, and then google or youtube that question, that was my process and i'm still enjoying it today after 8 years :)
Give it a go. It only cost time. Don't look shit up, just chill and figure it out. Check the in game help menu if you need to.
I also strongly recommend the game, and have been playing it on and off for several years now. However, in the current state of the game 'rare' enemies (strong enemies with gold outlines who often appear as part of larger groups of enemies) frequently come with modifiers that make them virtually unkillable even on a fairly strong build, or which can kill you from off-screen before you can react. I would strongly recommend waiting until the launch of the next league on (probably) August 11th to try it out, since there will likely be some more comprehensive balance patches coming with that, but if you're unwilling to do that, definitely look up a league starter build guide as at least a reference point rather than trying to wing it. I know a lot of people who tried just going in blind and figuring the game out as they went along; as far as I'm aware they all stopped playing within a week.
EDIT: Or at least be willing to look one up if the game starts getting frustrating, rather than trying to plough through. The game expects you to eventually be running several characters anyway.
@@Oops-All-Ghosts Dont listen to that guy, i played until the end game and it was totally fine, he died a lot and didnt want to invest in defense, he's just really salty. There's also mods on the Atlas Tree that can make monsters deal 25% less damage. You'll be fine just take your time :)
If you do give it a try, all i can say is: Don't look things up.
Just play and learn along the way. You'll run into a roadblock sooner or later, i've been there, but there's nothing wrong with making mistakes. That initial fresh experience ... that's something you can only truly get once. There will always be opportunities to look up guides and whatnot, but there's only one truly non-informed fresh and personal experience.
In any case, i hope you have fun!
Josh and Crhis thank you for that interview. As a long time PoE player and fan, it was kind of refreshing to just think about game development at its core and how it pretains to PoE, instead of the endless: perfect crafting, chase unique, unbuffed gems, or difficult trading reddit debates.
Reddit Community is problematic, negative stuff gets pushed to the top no matter what, I left because it was affecting my will to play, i was starting to think that the game was dying...and it was 3-4 years ago.
If you want answer questions and debate builds and such, there is a community for that. But the main one is really bad.
@@Nomoon777 fun fact: CW confirmed that GGG doesn't just look at the top voted posts! i cba finding the source right now but if you really wanted to double check that, it was in one of the interviews this year.
@@Nomoon777 I actually did not mean to indicate that the community is problematic. I fully support the debates that occur on the sub reddit. Having strong opinions on how the game should best be designed seems like a very natural consequence of putting thousands of hours into a game. I always believe we should just have more filters in the subreddit for: "critique", "fluff", "design philopshy", etc. so that if someone personally wants a specific experience on a given day, they don't have to see someone complain about the state of starforge, fossil crafts not respecting meta mods, or why mana nerfs should be reverted - they don't have to but can still engage with all the announcements, appreciation threads, and positive elements that DO occur everyday on the POE subreedit.
Genuinely a really awesome interview, gave a tonne of insights into a a bunch of topics and none of the questions felt like they had been asked before. Really great stuff. So glad I found this channel!
Great interview - thanks Josh and Chris!
What a sound and well spoken guy Chris is. Super cool he took the time and risk to speak with you.
I've been a PoE player since the beta days. I am always taken back by how candid Chris Wilson can be about some things.
I could listen to this conversation all day every day. I love Chris's presentation from past league reveal streams, and content creator interviews, I love Josh's way of thinking about aspects of games and asking questions.
Top class interview thx for the content man!
POE is very overwhelming for new players, i felt that way too. The first time I really finish the campaign I didn't look any build guide online, I took a bunch of defensive nodes, like half of my skill points go through defensive nodes and I had a vague idea of how to scale some skills. I played cold skill gems and I switched around creeping frost, ice spear and ended up using frostbolt + ice nova combo to defeat Kitava, it took a few tries but I managed to kill her. I got lucky and got an exalt on yellow maps, and at this point I started to look at build guides, learning how the economy works, crafting, etc. POE doesn't tell you that much, and I can guarantee you can survive the campaign if you have a vague idea on how MMORPG works because I did it without looking guides online.
Yea fair every build can clear the campaign pretty much it's mostly endgame goals that you can brick a build for. You don't go around building a cobra lash glass canon assassin and expect to clear wave 30 simulacrum with it. But I have on many occassions cleared the campaign by just winging it with that skill. My fiance even cleared the campaign by just reading stuff and winging it. No planning into the skilltree whatsoever she just looked whichever of the reachable nodes helped her most at that very exact time and clicked it that tree looked horrid :') But she had fun and she managed through the campaign eventually so who cares what the tree looks like at that point, she never wanted to go clear wave 30 simulacrum anyway.
@@reznovvazileski3193 Yeah, you dont make such a build to clear wave 30 sim, but that is not for the average players lets not forget that. That is part of what would be considered "uber content". You can have a lot of fun with the game without doing the pinnacle boss fights or anything like that.
You have to look up guides for how to use guides for this game, so I just went in learning with what ended up being a Scion Totem based build. Didn't seem that great, but I couldn't figure out how to get a clear answer on what to do anyway, because the "guides" are often just links to a bunch of gibberish letters and numbers that apparently has to be converted somehow, using a completely seperate program you need to install. No thanks.
I think that's also the main barrier that makes the game feel bad to get into. The game isn't that difficult to understand at the end of the day, and going through the campaign has been fun, but the gap between new players and the old players that act like they absolutely hate new players with a burning passion, makes it feel like I'd rather not bother. It really seems like the veteran and older players WANT the game to slowly die and never see new players, and it's really baffling. I like the combination most games have of having fun with the game itself, but also looking into the community and engaging with them, and that's impossible if the majority of the old players hate seeing new people join. It is simultanously understandable and depressing that Grinding Gear can't do anything about this, because if anything is going to kill the game, it is the old players.
@@KiyokoFaith what a delusional person. You can always get help from people if you look for it. The game shouldn't be simplified due to yours or someone else's incompetence.
10 acts are the tutorial mate
This was a brilliant interview. Thank you Josh, and thank you Chris Wilson. It's hard to see any positives in the gaming industry these days, but this left me feeling hopeful for the future.
This was amazing! You are good at this!
I appreciate all the great videos. Keep up the fantastic work.
Fantastic interview Josh! My thanks to Mr Chris Wilson for being such a great counterpart. 👍🎉 Try Path of Exile folks. It’s worth at least a few hours of your time.
I have, but I quit once I realized I didn’t make any progress in the end game, even after respeccing a lot
@blargh can you tell me why it’s bad, or are you just shilling for Diablo Immortal?
@blargh Man you're really butthurt about the game in the comments here. What's the matter, couldn't afford a mageblood this league? Plenty of people are playing, 3.18 has been hugely popular even with the archnemesis difficulties at the beginning.
I like how this guy actually cares about his game and seems to know it really rather well. You'd be surprised how often that doesn't come through with other games...
When the CEO reaches end game in hardcore you're in good hands.
That is absolutely not the case whatsoever, lol.
@@lw8882 Wont catch Bobby Kotick playing wow that's for sure.
Anyone who's sunk lots of hours into really bad (MMO/A)RPGs will quickly grow to appreciate how ggg runs POE.
Excellent video/interview!
Amazing interview. Thank you both, Josh and Chris
33:34 I get what he's saying, that data can lead in the wrong direction. I've had bosses do this before. It's not that data is bad. It's that correlation is not causation. The correlation is that players left after this quest. The causation isn't that the quest is bad. It's that, as he says, the time to next quest is long and the natural player decay is inherently larger over a long time span. Whoever gave him that data did a bad job.
100% agree that gut instinct is valuable. I use it all the time. If I think that data looks bad but it doesn't make sense, that's my gut saying there's something deeper to investigate.
"Data is only good if it's interpreted correctly." "Data is only as good as your control." "Data is only good when contextualized."
You know, I'm starting to think all this data, about data, is made up by data analysts to continue justifying their jobs. Because the more I learn about data collection and analysis the more it seems like data is only actually good for helping corporate psychologists exploit blind spots in human psychology for profit.
@@doublejesusful disagree. Data can answer questions--but it's still up to the human being to *ask the correct questions*, and furthermore, to work with the data in such a way as to be sure the data answers the question correctly.
Essentially, I think a data scientist that also is good at PoE (to various extents) could add a fair bit of value to GGG.
@@Ilyak1986 fully agree. even Chris said "you have to have a valid and well thought out question and only then can the data answer you".
@@doublejesusful A large part of my training as a data analyst is that it is composed of finding truth and storytelling. I decided to become one, because I am tired of cleaning the mess of those glorified bean counters. Chris Wilson, really boosted my ego saying the same thing I've been saying to random strangers in the internet. He is a successful CEO and legendary developer, so there is more weight to his word. That's what's unfortunately most data is used for. Adding more weight to whoever speaking while often meaning very little different from, "this works, this don't". But unfortunately, we have a generation of idiots who can only justified anything in data, but cannot see the humans that the data represent.
I have plenty of gripes with PoE, but I love how open and communicative Chris is with the PoE community, he's not perfect, nobody is, but he really makes an effort, and I absolutely respect that
Yeah agree he seems like a good dude.
reminds me of Yoshi P, from FFXIV
Josh, I loved this interview. The convergence of ideas (he talking about brand deposit and you talking about trust being a currency) shows that you really know what you are talking about and you came up by yourself instead of reading it somewhere else.
I really look foward more content like this.
This was the Chris Wilson interview we all needed! It is so refreshing to hear deep, thought-provoking questions and honest answers without gotchas. Thank you both for taking the time to make this. Cheers!
Chris and GGG are both amazing.
I'm pumped for PoE 3.19 coming out in a few weeks and ready to be blown away yet again by the amount of content these guys are gonna jam into it!
Chris has always seemed like a great guy. I really enjoyed his 2019 GDC talk and his sage wisdom shines through here as well. Grinding Gear Games has really earned its success by threading the needle of keeping players engaged without being predatory, and keeping the focus on fun. I really admire Chris and GGG because it inspires me and gives me hope that some day I might make a niche game with a sustainable community for people that really enjoy it
Honestly, his GDC talk is like one of the main videos i show to people when it comes to discussing online game design. I extremely good.
I have watched it several times :)
Love the start. I hope to see much more in this series outside your already planned content.
This was so good, thanks Chris and Josh!
This is why I will support PoE2 over D4 when they're both out. For Real, PoE developers are absolutely the best lads
The man plays his own game, how can you not love him. Legend
Lets just hope both will be phenomenal games that can make the entire genre better
I'm already calling it. Diablo 4 is gonna flop for one reason or another. It also looks like it plays like a mobile game, too fast and with gimmicky (i dare to say cartoony) animations.
@@damsen978 Every time Blizzard come out and say they're not gonna monetise Diablo 4 after the toxic waste that was Diablo Immortal, I laugh out loud knowing that when they inevitably monetise it the mental gymnastics from Blizzard we witness will be Olympian.
@@Blisterdude123 lmfao awesome comment, thank you.
You just have to adore Chris. The way he talks and thinks about PoE. I really wish them great future ahead and huge thanks for great questions to Josh.
P.S. If anyone is planning on trying PoE after this interview, I am glad to help!
I have played it few years ago and stopped when the story returns you to the beginning, my internet connection was lousy then and i think their servers were as well so it was a bit frustrating. I have about 90 hours in it, so not a total beginner but didn't finished the main game and story yet.
Any tips how to get back in the game and such, maybe some recommendations ( you cant link stuff in you tube comment but a name of site or reddit post or something will help ) where to find what items/gems to sell from my inventory and which to keep, maybe pointer to find some build ideas and tune up my build ( i completely did it on my own so far, as far as i remember played as a witch with two wands i think and focused on regenerating health when i deal damage ).
All in all to help me with mayor cleaning of inventory and build if i return to it, oh and story recap if there is available somewhere... :D
...you know how getting back into a game after a few years is... XD
@@DreamskyDance Zizaran has a PoE "University" series that is a very indept walkthrough through the acts and maps. He also has a large amount of guides and builds on his youtube. I'd highly recommend looking through it, and surprisingly the Reddit has great moments of helpful and informative talks.
@@MrAxile The only problem is Ziz was cursed with perpetual skaven voice. Poor guy makes good content but that nasal drone is taxing on the psyche.
@@JohnSmith-zf3yk had to look him up. Holy shit you were right. My slayer oath was about to kick in.
Corrupted by tencent
thank you for sharing your interview with chris 🙂
Great interview. Thank you for that Josh.
I started playing this league "Sentinel", I have 460h into the game, 4 characters in the endgame at level 95 and I can confirm, the learning curve is a little hard but if you enjoy learning and mastering something, this is the game for you, I love the complexity of the game since there is always something new to learn. As Chris said, he has my soul. lol
Only 460h in one league?
Casual.
@@VanByyrg Yeah this is like my 6th or so league and the first time I ever hit 95. Very impressive for a new player.
@@VanByyrg Even one is impressive, as getting 94 - 95 you cant really be dying a lot. Requires a good understanding of how to build a character defensively.
He's had my soul since 2012-13 when the game was being played in Beta with only 3 acts... although I play far more less than I did years ago
People are really unhappy with the current league. Lots of nerfs, frustrating increased difficulty. The game was already impossible to get through without following a guide with an optimized and extensively tested build. This seasons league achievements are also beyond the reach of all but the most addicted and hardcore players.
Absolutely stellar job with this one, can't wait for the next. Wonderful start to what I hope is a long running series.
Well, that was a really great interview, good job!
What an excellent talk, thanks to both of you!
Shoutout to Josh, such an impressive evolving person in the gaming sphere. I really appreciate all the work you put together and having the oppurtunity to Talk to Chris Wilson just proves of how much of a institution you've become by now. Keep it up!
Been really looking forward to sitting down and enjoying this since Josh first mentioned it would be happening, can't wait to see where the series goes as a whole!
Great interview! Amazing questions!
Outstanding interview. Great questions Josh.
Hey Josh, I'd like to see an interview with some of the folks at Digital Extreme(DE) who made Warframe. Over all the years they have had many good and bad interactions with their community but regardless they always seem moderately ethical in their approach to balancing a free to play game with monetization.
It would also be interesting to see an interview addressing the idea of developer personalities being so deeply intertwined with the community of their game. Geoff is normally brought up when someone talks about how bad DE really is, as an example. On the other side you have Rebecca (Community Manager, not Developer) who has been labelled as "Space Mom" by the Tenno community due to her voice acting role as the Lotus, which she plays up and leans into often. They honestly have a whole cast of characters who all work on this game and are usually seen on the Dev logs, which makes their dynamic with the Tenno community so nebulous and interesting.
Just something I'd like to see personally.
" they always seem moderately ethical in their approach to balancing a free to play game with monetization. " When it comes to Warframe's monetization scheme, I'd say that it's as good as it gets. You only pay for cosmetics, and the premium currency is pretty farmable so you can play the game and not spend a dime. QoL stuff like extra weapon and frame slots are necessary and also only bought with plat, but as I said before, plat can be farmed pretty easily either way.
I've never tried Path of Exile, though it has been on my list of games to try for a while now. After watching this interview with Chris, I'm going to give it a try. Nice video.
Hope you have fun! Take your time and enjoy the game, and when you get to a point that you're not enjoying it as much anymore, ask yourself why and google or youtube that reason. That's the process i used and it allowed me to enjoy the game even more
Don't be hesitant to try out all sort of different skills and maybe even reroll a character if you find something that you like.
It easier to prefer the mechanic of how some skill plays over the other so using a skill that fits your style is a key to enjoyment in my opinion.
just remember, atk damage and spell damage is different from one another and if I'm not mistaken generic fire, lightning, cold, elemental damage also does not scale spells outside of some exceptions
If you are new player don't play bow build
Thanks for this fantastic interview, Josh. I love how meticulous and business focused your analyses are and you really communicated beautifully here, I can tell you prepared a lot!
I genuinely enjoyed this video. Thank you for making it.
This was awesome!! Love Chris! And kudos to you Josh, you're an amazing interviewer with excellent questions!
What an absolutely love and insightful interview. How does this man work on the industry this long, grow this big and stay so... grounded?
Great interview with some really thought provoking questions!
You both have very high levels of charisma and your chemistry together is quite obvious.
I thoroughly enjoyed the answers that Chris gave, he talks super fast, and still manages to sound very eloquent. He manages to impart new ways of thinking on me, every time that he gives an interview.
I am very much looking forward to poe 2, as I also believe that Chris and his team have managed to make the best game in its genre. GGG deserves all the success in the world, and I can't wait to see what the future has in store! Cheers! :)
Chris Wilson brought me here. This format is INCREDIBLE, these questions are brilliant. I'll be around for awhile.
i only watched half the video so far, but i had to stop and tell you that josh ask superb questions and chris answers superbly, what an interview ! i enjoy this so much !
This has instantly became my favourite content on CZcams! Thanks Chris and Josh for this! As for who I would love to see on Dev Log - Hidetaka Miyazaki.
love this to be a long-going series! dev log!
amazing video thx josh !
Love the passion you both have for the topic. Great discussion and always interesting to hear Chris' perspective.
I've personally gotten over 6000 hours worth of enjoyment from the game so far and it's still as fun as ever.
It's very inspiring to listen to Chris Wilson. He has such a unique view on things, one that you nowadays simply no longer expect AAA companies to have. He is a gamer and he understands the importance of treating his customers like gamers, too, not like children or money bags or consumers that'll eat up anything.
Very interesting talk. Brilliant questions and answers. Really enjoyed it!
Great questions and overall excellent video. Cheers!
Man, this was a joy to watch. You can really feel that Chris is passionate about his own game and seeing it go on and develop for years to come. Never played PoE but have great respect for Chris :)
Lol would love a follow up interview
Great interview, loved it !
Enjoyed the interview start to finish. Keep it up, Josh 😎
The quote at 20:03 from Chris is exactly what every video game company needs to take to heart.
It was really cool and very insightful to hear Chris talk, you can just feel his genuine passion for video game making. I shall now pray for a future where Josh talks with Yoshi P
great start to the series. I hope to see more like it in the future.
Brilliant interview!