Elden Ring - Some strange implications
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- čas přidán 30. 07. 2022
- It's not uncommon for names and details to get shuffled around between characters sometimes, like Aldrich and Sulyvahn in Dark Souls III, but Godfrey's name changes create some odd questions about certain parts of the lore.
Song used: Faron Woods - The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess OST - Hry
I should mention Maliketh's AI is named BlackSwordMariques, just to help solidify the "Marikesu/Maliketh" connection, it's all just different romanizations of the Japanese rendering of the name. What it would actually have meant for the lion on Godfrey's back to have been Maliketh the whole time is hard to consider. It always felt like something was a little off about how Godfrey fit into the story though, and these changes may have played a part in it.
your content is amazing zullie I hope you keep making these videos :D
I like to think of Serosh and Maliketh being the same being, from a lore perspective, is the betrayal perpetuated by Marika. Marika seals Destined Death within Serosh, binds him to Godfrey. Then banishes him and the Tarnished from the Lands Between. Removing the threat of Destined Death forever.
If Serosh is indeed Maliketh, since he has to die in order to initiate the appearance of Godfrey, then Maliketh existence would have been a kind of a seal or a curse that wasn't allowing Godfrey to return in the Lands Between.
Also when you see that Destined Death can kill a soul and a body and it can also work on different beings (Ranni's body and Godwyn's soul), Miyazaki original idea of Destined Death may have been a little bit different if Serosh/Maliketh are originally the same being separated somehow between soul and body.
The body would be on the back of Godfrey, since it doesn't speak at all and Clergyman would have been the soul reincarnated somehow in a new vessel.
Well, Serosh is the Beast Regent, and usually that means King or Lord, abd seeing that Maliketh is at the end of Farum Azula, a place where the Beast People originate from, i think Serosh was meant to be a boss fight of some kind, or at least something of the dort
The models and the names are similar, though different. Mariques could originally be the name for Maliketh, and Maliketh for Serosh. Serosh model is similar to Lion Guardian, while Maliketh have features that resemble a wolf
Fighting Godfrey with Maliketh on his back before swapping to Horah Loux and letting Maliketh join the fray as a dual boss was too terrifying a battle for them to consider.
Or worse, Godfrey wielding Destined Death
Depending on who you kill first:
1) Maliketh gets muscular, using his new strength to repeatedly scorch the arena with his "destined death earthshaker" and other similar moves
or
2) Godfrey gets a maliketh themed WWE outfit.
Make your choice.
@@ethanwashington6789 POUND 1
Yes daddy Maliketh become a hyperfur.
Seems easy enough
SHHH! Miyazaki will hear you and get a boss boner!
I know it’s not the case but the idea of Gold Mask being a 9 foot tall barbarian is hilarious
imagine when intro cinematic yell this _ _ _ Horah Loux, the Golden Mask !! . . ok that sound weird . . .
Instead of communicating through subtle hand gestures he communicates through flexing his muscles and posing.
Goldmask is only 6’ tall. The tarnish is just 5’11”
Muscle cleric casts suplex
Goldmask except BEEFY is the greatest image.
For some reason Serosh just hanging off Godfrey's back gnawing on his shoulder amuses me.
It's such a cat thing to do that it makes me laugh. My cat used to do the same thing whenever he was on my back like that.
Was your cat also holding back your inner wwe champion?
@@naiiin6949 Nah, he just liked to gnaw on us when he was feeling affectionate.
A massive spirit lion is the equivalent to a kitty cat to Godfrey, so it's appropriate.
This made me smile
@@hoked2194 It's not some ethereal power that kept Godfrey in control, just the natural cute power of feline pets.
i like that underneath all of godfrey's lordly armor made by serosh, he's still dressed as a chieftain of the badland. he ruled as an elden lord while still wearing his Nikes.
Gotta keep the drip xD
Subhumans can only think of footwear like good sheep. You want people to keep telling you how to dress? Manipulate you so easily that you devote your life to putting shoes on a pedestal?
if you look closely, he's actually wearing his ripped cape as a cloth, it's not a chieftain attire
never forgot the hood
Literally the plot of the song My Adidas
The most interesting part of this video is the revelation that Fia was called Yuliya.
Completing the cycle of “Yuria” in Demons Souls, “Yulia” in Dark Souls, “Yuria” again in Dark Souls 3, and now “Yuliya” a variation of Yulia in Elden Ring.
There was actually already another Yuliya too, in Déraciné, and Bloodborne had Yurie, the Last Scholar.
Japanese people spell L and R the same way so expect it to be international
Marikesu is how they spell maliketh
Japanese language is a bit odd
So yeah Yuliya Is Yuria, just a different translator
Considering how invested Yuria from DS3 is in the fate of Hollows and Ashen Ones, I think she and Fia would get along when it comes to the rights and autonomy of Those Who Live In Death. 🤔
This is a very round about way to introduce Yuri in the Souls Universe but alright...
I guess someone ar Fromsoft has a little OC named Yuria and the rest of the team likes the OC as well or are unable to stop that person.
I’m just imaging us fighting Gold Mask instead of Godfrey, and he’s just silent the entire battle until his second phase where he just screams and turns into Hoarah Roux, a massive warrior
He takes steroids...
That would be terrifying honestly; doesn’t make a sound, then starts fucking SCREAMING
@@stupidthefish1979 he starts screaming like a cod zombie
and upon killing the player in a suplex or a body slam, he just t-poses over the Tarnished, asserting his own dominance.
I think it would be more creepy if Gold Mask acted like Majora's 2nd and 3rd phase.
All I know for sure is it's a serious disappointment that we never got to interact with Serosh in any way other than watching him get his jaw ripped off. He's apparently super important but he enters the story as a backpack and leaves immediately after as a corpse.
"enters as a backpack, leaves as a corpse" made me laugh more than it probably should have, thank you :D
Godammit xD
How was he important besides suppressing Godfrey?
was looking for a comment like this, i feel like he was so underutilised, especially after being kind of a big part of the ER imagery. so there was a moment of "omg, that guy, what's the reveal gonna be" during the boss fight for him to just... disappear. kind of sad :(
yeah, but the whole story takes place after events have happened, if they do like they did with previous games a time warp/time travel we may get to meet Serosh. I like to think Serosh was chosen out of the race of lion beasts that used to be servants to the demis, who by the time we get to Lands in Between are pretty much extinct.
Kinda funny how u fight both of Marika’s husbands back-to-back
That's what we get for asking Morgott if his mum's husbands can fight...
scott pilgrim is the canon tarnished
@@ashencometmom5291 yeah… and goes through the extra mile to take out her brother, children, and stepchildren
only to (potentially) be marika's third husband
I would've much rather we got to at least separate Radagon from Marika and then team up with him to kill her. Radagon really had a shitty situation forced upon him.
Godfrey was supposed to have a more personal role in relation to the player at one point, according to some interviews pre-release, where he was mentioned to be a sort of 'mentor' figure to the player, and more or less being the impetus for the player to travel to the Lands Between at his behest. Which makes a lot more sense than just simply waking up in the chapel with no fanfare, or real goal or motivation.
Sorta like a King Hyrule figure, you think?
Kinda makes me wish that we got this instead of the final release :(
From soft has a long habit of doing this. Bloodborne was similar where you were supposed to have an NPC companion of sorts to give you motivation and guidance. But it was scrapped in the end. I wonder if they intentionally decide to leave your motivations vague for the purpose of role playing or if they just never like how their guiding NPCs turn out
I saw some voice lines to that extent in another channel's vids on cut content! Interestingly, Godfrey mentions the breaking of the Elden Ring in the future tense, confirming he and Marika were plotting an insurrection against the Greater Will from the beginning.
the lore implies that the tarnished were all followers of godfrey. When he was stripped of grace, so were we, and sent to fight battles in other lands.
What separates them is that shadows are constructed entities, beasts are… well, could be equivalent to the beastmen. Serosh is a Lord of Beasts so who knows. Maliketh became a clergyman of the beastmen despite being a wolven shadow, so I guess anything is possible.
Well, Maliketh looks more feline to me, and even more so once you remove his hair, more kin to Serosh than, say, Blaidd. Not sure what if anything that might imply though.
@@ziegander Lol yeah. When I first say Maliketh in the trailer I was like “ay that’s a cool cat.” Then I found out he was just a wacky looking wolf… so, yeah. Understandable
@@ziegander True, there are instances you can see him "howling" at Farum Azula as Gurranq and unlike Blaidd in Mistwood he's clearly roaring like a lion.
Yeah they really made Maliketh ambiguous about if he was a wolf or a lion.
Not that I haven't seen sword-wielding lions or other lycanthropes/demi-humans, or wolves made with long manes (I even drew one for my own ends), but Maliketh just didn't look it immeadiately.
@@Demokaze interesting, I've never seen that.
That's so odd. It is worth mentioning though, I personally think your idea of Maliketh being bound to Godfrey probably isn't too far off. If Maliketh was meant to serve a similar role as the bearer of destined death, it would be literally making Hoarax carry the burden of death on his back. As though he was so powerful the only thing that could hold him back was *literally being eaten away by death,* as Serosh's animation is him always gnawing on Godfrey's shoulder.
I mean, he pretty easily got rid of serosh for the second part of the fight
@@Purpzie at that point they might have already changed their mind on Maliketh being bound to Godfrey. Zullie already pointed out how he wasn't mentioned at all in a earlier version of the intro and didn't seem to have a second name, as Hoarah Roux was the name given to the ever-brilliant Goldmask
I wonder if it's just possible that Serosh and Maliketh being both "beasts", are just a divergence of character models. They knew who Maliketh was and that Godfrey had a beast on his back to keep his lust in check. Maybe it's just simply a nickname given to Serosh during development.
I know Souls Games have often had some insights in the development of their games but the people behind are still developers too and we know that this happens in any other game as well. I'm not discounting the theory that this has lore implications or outright disagreeing with that take but I feel like we should also consider, albeit the boring possibility, that it could have been a design name.
Sheesh
I've always felt that even if narratively Godfrey's slotted into the game kind of awkwardly, *thematically* his inclusion and execution is perfect. He's the perfect penultimate battle, this fellow human who respects you as much as he wants to defeat you, who too was victimized by the events of the story and given this massive weight/responsibility
Victimized? How so?
@@LieutenantAlaki He got stripped of his title and power and exiled from his homeland to fulfill the machinations of his strange, godlike wife (who likely only married him as part of a plot).
@@jackkendall6420 It's heavily implied (and more or less confirmed in cut dialogue) that Godfrey was in on the plan the entire time.
@@jackkendall6420 is marika ever confirmed to be responsible for grace? becasue godfrey losing grace was the reason for his exile
@@LieutenantAlaki Of course he was Marika says what he has to do in the main game,not just cut dialogue.
Ill try to keep this concise, I think the implication now is that Serosh is the image of kingliness that was projected onto him when he became part of the golden order. Lions as a symbol (especially in reference to a king) generally represent majesty, courage, might, etc, and he's strong but this still doesnt quite apply to horah loux, chieftain of the badlands. Godfrey is an image he projects, and the symbol of the lion is taming his image, rather than presenting his real brutal self. The biggest implication of this, to me, comes from Radahn. Radahn strives to embody the lion, looking up to Godfrey, wanting to become like him, but not even Horah Loux was everything Godfrey was. Radahn is upholding a stagnant image, he's trying to keep the golden order the same, but stagnation leads to rot and he succumbs. There's a lot I brushed over and can elaborate on for clarity but 50/50 nobody sees this anyway lol
I always saw Serosh as a representation of Marika herself. She sunk her claws into Godfrey, but was never able to completely take over his will. Then we get Radagon who she literally "became one" with up on marriage. It all points back to Marika manipulating both into serving her one way or another, even though they both could've easily taken her spot as king if they wanted.
@@Lee-km7qq That is interesting. What is a regent? a person appointed to administer a country because the monarch is a minor or is absent or incapacitated.
Radahn's armor says "The golden lion is *said* to symbolize Godfrey, the Elden Lord, and his beast regent, Serosh." and from the golden beast crest shield, "The beast depicted is Serosh, aged counselor who guides the
golden lineage."
Regent could refer to Godfrey being separate from horah loux but there's enough times they distinguish serosh from godfrey that maybe it is referring to marika in part. I think that makes Radahn even more interesting.
Radahn said "I was born a champion's cub. Now I am the Lord of the Battlefield's lion." In Radahn's eyes, Godfrey is absolutely the image of the lion, but if it were Marika responsible for many of Godfrey's actions, then Radahn is trying to be something no one person could be
@@Lee-km7qq On a side note: I think there's a theory that Radagon was split from Marika, and that they used to be the _same_ person even before they re-fused in their marriage. Also, they never got along that well.
Coulda been a bit more concise by removing the first bit before the comma and the last sentence :p
@@Lee-km7qq a bit odd, but what if the events of Elden Ring was due to Marika wanting to be the ultimate ruler, not bound to any King, the Elden Ring's Golden Order, and the Greater Will?
In terms of politics in Elden Ring, at least when Marika came into power, monarchy is the norm of the land, with the King always viewed as the ruler instead of the Queen even though she had authority. We see this in most cases, that if the Queen is widowed she might seek another King just to uphold her position. Hence comes Godfrey as the King, not as a ruler but more as someone she can use to extend her will throughout the Lands in Between.
However, he was still Hoarax Loux, a different person with ideals and goals that might clash with Marika, even with Serosh suppressing him and having him bear the Godfrey's image in hope that he does what she wants. She can't see herself being beneath others, AKA she wants to be on the top. Yet, this is still Godfrey, a King with authority that will not back down in spite of challenges, even if it was her wife Marika.
So what she needs is someone that shares her ideals and will, preferably herself. To that end in mind, she splits herself into two individual, Marika and Radagon, then proceeds to stripped Godfrey and his kin of their Golden Grace, becoming Tarnished. She hopes that with Radagon as the King beside her, she can finally rule with absolute power. But, as we know, Radagon was not like her, being more obedient to the Greater Will.
It’s important to remember not to think of cut content in a vacuum. It’s easy to think of name changes like this in the context of our story, the one that we got in the final game, but it’s significantly more likely that the version of the story that uses these names was entirely different from the story we have now, in ways we can’t even speculate on.
I was weary of making this point myself but yeah, cut content isn't canon. I appreciate Zullie's videos but I think these cut content explorations and their "ramifications" on the lore are detrimental. It may not be their intention, but this kind of information is too often used as a crutch for people to "explain" things they can't understand. Cut content is always interesting to learn about, we should never use it in lore hunting unless it's just a side note to support an already fully fledged theory. Just my two cents in support of your argument.
In this case it's actually more valid though (compared to other fromsoft titles). Since we know the lore and mythology was written by George Martin, and Miyazaki claimed they built the entire game world out of George's lore, means the story already had an established and coherent "canon" pre-production.
@@merlith4650 "Built [...] out of" is an important distinction, though. Isn't it? Just like etymology and mythology have been wrongfully -in my opinion- used as canon before, without access to internal documents there is no way of telling how much of anything was changed in the process. Not to mention the fact still stands that whatever has been changed, such as with Godfrey's name, has indeed been changed. Whatever previous iteration of the lore pertinent to this data is no longer a part of the whole. And we'll never even know why any of these changes have taken place. As usual, I believe the answers are all in-game, we just have to look for them. There's no need to bring outside sources of information into it.
@@HarumiRose I think you misunderstand the intention of these videos. These videos are not trying to establish or argue what the "actual" lore is.
They are simply an insight into the production process and changes made to the creative direction of the game, sparked from nothing more than curiosity.
This. At this point, it's just as likely that Maliketh was originally meant to be in Serosh's place as it is that Maliketh was Serosh's original name but they liked the name so much they changed it so they could use it for the more prominent character. Also, even if Maliketh was originally meant to be the beast stuck to Godfrey's back... He isn't. They changed it.
But, while info like this may be of dubious usefulness in a lore-analysis purpose, it *might* be pretty indicative, as well. For example, the finger mace's 1.0 text specified that it was indeed based on/made by Rykard, which many people had already suspected. Now, they changed that text for the ultimate release version, but nothing else really changed about it, so the idea that they removed it just because they decided it wasn't related to Rykard anymore is on the lower side. More likely they just wanted it to be a little less explicit, as is their wont.
I think something to consider is that Miyazaki did admit they stuck closely to Martin's bible of what comes before the Shattering. The switch arounds may have been From's efforts to write the story of the Shattering and the game only to have to switch things around out of a desire to more closely adhere to Martin's contribution.
I was thinking this, too. Fromsoft likes to stick with certain themes and tropes in their games, but they had this story from Martin that didn't follow those same themes. It could even go both ways, with From trying to tweak things to their own taste away from Martin's story. While overall Elden Ring lore looks good, I feel you can see really conflicting ideas when you dig into it.
Or rather, Fromsoft is justifying their complete lack of having a clue about where they want to take their story and sell it to fans as something that is left up for interpretation, when in reality it's all such a giant clusterfuck they don't know either what the hell is going on, in true Souls fashion.
@@tortyreus2384 do you work at fromsoft?
@@tortyreus2384 you're definitely new to the series.
@@tortyreus2384 Lol that's unnecessarily salty and you know it. You've experienced enough to sound mad about it.
They robbed us of buff wrestler Goldmask
Horah Loux, the Golden Mask of Badlanddd !!
No, Goldmask was the same character-Zullie shows the cutscene and the art for Goldmask was the same-he just used the name Horah Loux. Goldmask wasn't meant to be a barbarian lord.
Nepheli being a last-minute entry feels right; it's pretty rare for an NPC to just walk around in stock starting class armor. Even Corhyn has the altered wheel prophet set from the network test.
I wonder if Goldmask no longer being Hoarah Loux also meant his and Corhyn's quest was a late addition. Even the whole Regression puzzle wouldn't involve much in the way of new assets, just flipping one commonly-used statue for another.
And don't forget Nepheli's arc wasn't complete on launch
Goldmask’s quest is extremely simple, too. You only need to find them.
@@jarofbees7259It still doesn't feep complete either. We elevate her to lord of limgrave, and then what? She stands around doing nothing with the others in the throne room. There's really no reason to complete the quest other than the ancient dragon stones we get.
Not necessarily. Looking at Ostrava and his Knight starting class armour...
@@Lord_Of_Night If you have to go all the way back to Demon's Souls for another example, that's pretty rare, I'd say.
I always thought it interesting that Nepheli shares the name “Loux.” Is it a family name, or perhaps a title?
I think it's like a clan name or something, Nepheli's armor description mentions something about it being the garb of the wandering folk of the badlands, which is also where Godfrey was supposed to be from originally
Probably a clan name. Like those old Irish clans.
Since Hoarah Loux is a chieftain it's most likely a clan name.
@@TheDustyForest Now that makes way more sense lmao
She says he's her father no?
Zullie, I know you get a million comments, but I just want you to know I’m a long time fan of all of your work. I watch every video as soon as it’s available to me, and it’s people like you that keep the best games alive through hard work and curiosity. Please never stop being you
Thanks, it's still hard for me to believe sometimes that people like what I do, despite the empirical evidence.
@@ZullietheWitch DO believe it. There are many lurkers like myself who smile every time a new video pops up!
@@ZullietheWitch You are doing the Lord's work. Like FromSoft Games though, I'm not telling you *which* Lord. :)
So much this. It's pretty much the only channel I watch a new vid of every single time it pops up in my notifications. Thank you for all your hard work, Zullie!
@@ZullietheWitch I am another lurker. I love your content even though I watch my daughter play and i find hints for her instead of playing myself. I really love the way you show the insides of things and how things are put together . I just became a pateron supporter. Keep up the good work!
One thing that I've been wondering: where are Malenia and Miquella's Shadows? As Empyreans, they should have them, but there isn't any mention of them as far as I'm aware.
Is that only the case with Empyreans aligned with the Golden Order, perhaps? They're just assassins to keep them in line, after all.
DLC subject matter maybe? I would love more Maliketh-esque fights.
That's an interesting question
It's possible that they never received one. I think that Empyreans, who have potential to become a god, do not receive a Shadow until they are chosen to become one. Ranni is specifically noted to have been chosen to replace Marika, but she rebelled against the Greater Will and slew her body to limit it's influence upon her.
Thy probably killed them
The cape of the Beast Champion armor has the exact same color as Godfrey's cape. It's an interesting connection when you consider Godfrey's connection with beasts.
"Such a lust for battle."
"WHOOOOOOOOOO!?"
Question: is it possible to “detangle” rykard’s model in order to get a better idea of how he’s put together?
Godfrey/Hoarah Loux is one of my favorite characters in Elden Ring. He's just unequivocally badass in all possible ways.
The thing that constantly has me scratching my head though is this...
Godfrey, was the first Tarnished. But before he was "Godfrey", his original name was Hoarah Loux. When the Long March began, he was still Godfrey up to a certain point, where according to the in-game intro and his remembrance, he shed the identity of Godfrey until he died as all tarnished were fated to as "Hoarah Loux." You can see clearly his corpse along with Serosh's in the intro.
So when he was resurrected by Grace, it also brought Serosh back as well, and thus restored his identity as Godfrey? Does that make Serosh also a tarnished or just tarnished adjacent? Did he also kill Serosh himself back then so he could revert to Hoarah Loux? Who on Marika's Earth managed to kill him in the first place? Was Godfrey only known as "Lord of the Battlefield" after dedicating himself to lordship or was that his title as Hoarah Loux, too? So many questions!
Re: Serosh, I think beasts have a direct relationship to the Golden Order/Greater Will. Serosh is the Beast Regent, and the only other beasts we see are in Farum Azula, which - as it holds Maliketh - we can take to be linked to the Golden Order. We're told in item descriptions that the beasts were 'granted intelligence' by something, presumably the GW, likely to serve as useful tools and soldiers. If Order has that kind of power over beasts, it can probably revive the spirit of Serosh without much trouble.
I don't think they really thought much about it
It's possible that Serosh simply parted ways until Marika re-granted grace to the Tarnished, where Serosh would personally visit his old friend's grave and be the one to revive Horoah Loux as Godfrey. We do know that a shadowbound beast doesn't die if their partner does, as with Ranni's physical body dying and Blaidd still being around, and Serosh would have had no reason to stay with Godfrey after his banishment due to no longer needing to keep him behaving properly as Elden Lord.
@@joshuakim5240 but in the intro we see serosh dead...
If the leak for Bamco's releases next year hold true, the upcoming planned dlc is "Barbarians of the Badlands" and may give us some answers.
I certainly wanna know more about Hoarah Loux. That was the manliest battle in any From game.
Meanwhile the dev that originally just duplicated the maliketh mesh asset to stick onto his back as a placeholder to see how it looked but never redid the name after properly updating to the new mesh for it is just snickering about how people are making all these speculations because of his random forgetting to rename an asset.
In all seriousness I could see this being the case for this one, I've done stuff like this myself on many occasions, copy another asset as a temp, and never truly rename or replace it fully but just update it partially to look good in game and once it looked good I never went back to clean up/polish the code since since I had other things to still focus on and then forget eventually since no one points it out as something needing to be fixed later on in development since in game it looks fine at least.
I am 100% with this, people look a bit too much into cut content meaning, and fromsoftware is not good either in removing unused content
Also, names are just names, not characters. Maybe the big wolf guy we fight in Farum Azula only got named Maliketh late in development and internal code elsewhere didn't update to reflect that (because why would it?), but his role in the story was always the same. Also, I don't expect the random programmers and modellers naming these files to be experts on the story. Miyazaki wasn't sitting there with the lore bible when they were making the textures for random_skeleton_enemy_4.tiff.xls.exe.
@@jackkendall6420 Most people don't know that Ebrietas from Bloodborne was straight up Kos at one point in development too.
@@Razhork Are you sure they weren't Kosm?
@@jackkendall6420 some might say that
I love that you use Twilight Princess music. Probably the only Zelda game I’ve ever played and it’s such a good one. Very nostalgic.
Probably? So you might have played another Zelda game without realizing it?
Wow, just think how this would’ve changed that boss fight. Imagine instead of Godfrey tearing Serosh from his body, Maliketh emerges from him the same way Serosh attempted to in the phase transition. Then have the second half of the fight be dedicated to Maliketh. Now THAT would be a brutal but very cool back to back fight.
Someone mentioned that it could have been a 3 Phase Fight, with Phases 2 and 3 basically being Ornstein and Smough where Phase 2 you fight both Hoarah Loux and Maliketh, and upon beating one of them, the other will inherit his power.
I'd cry. Really. I somehow managed to beat Godfrey in my third try (was a messy fight, really). But Maliketh was a nightmare. Would gladly take up a fight with Malenia every day instead of having to fight Godfrey and Maliketh back to back. I mean, yes, it sounds like a really cool concept - fighting both Marika's first husband and half-brother back to back - like we are some fool finally trying to propose to his girlfriend being stopped by her overprotective family. But still - I'd be crying
That shift might be why Hoara Loux/Godfrey seems so weird to me. Like, he's been banished for ages but somehow in game you can find numerous paintings of exactly how he looks like when you meet him near the Erdtree. Despite being one of the "main characters" of the game he doesn't appear until the very end while all the others have main quests attached to them, 3 out of 5 having their own ending and Gideon being one of the cornerstone of Lore-building (and being teased to have his own story in the future with Miquella). It really feels like Godfrey/HL has been slapped last minute because he was promotionnal art and thus they had to find a place for him.
The way I saw it is that Marika deliberately banished Godfrey so that he could fight in other lands, becoming strong enough to come back and challenge the Elden Beast/Greater Will, whom Marika no longer trusted. When we as the PC meet him, he challenges us to see who will have the right (by power) to face Radagon/Elden Beast. When we defeat him, he acknowledges that we have what it takes to defeat the old order and become the new lord.
Is the typical From Software way of "rewritting" things last minute, in the final product everything seems to always make less sense, and they throw the "time is convoluted" or similar excuses for heavy plot inconsistencies. One example i can mention is how much sense would have made if in DS3, at the end of the game we would see Lothric filled with newborn dragons flying around and sprouting archtrees, as if the world is trying to hard reset itself to escape from the fire-dark cycle that thanks to Gwyn and his manipulation, was never even allowed to fully occur even once. But no, we had the stupid angels and pilgrim butterflies that just came out of nowhere and made no sense lorewise, same with the damned locusts in the ringed city.
@@tchula8265 This is pretty much spot on.
@@Razhork +
you never really fight godfrey at his prime
he is human as us
tooooooooooooo old
he is no way near his young days
@@tchula8265 I mean that's pretty much what he is saying yes, and I agree that if you take just that it makes sense. What doesn't make sense is all the things around him in the world. Why does the Roundtable Hold have a painting of old Tarnished Godfrey? Why do you find a painting of Old Wandering Godfrey, with the broken axe that we know broke during his wandering, hence why Morgott Godfrey Stand has the full axe?
It's interesting to see how the story was rewritten. This in addition to Godfrey's cut dialogue suggests he had a different role in the story beforehand, and a lot was changed later on in development, especially the implications of the family name of Loux. Giving Godfrey the name Hoarah Loux may also have helped them later in creating Nepheli's questline, as it gives her legitimate claim to Limgrave's throne.
The model of the lion with its teeth sinking in is so awesome.
From Softs character design is top tier.
Hey Zulie, re-watching one of the trailers for Elden Ring shows the Fire Prelate without its robes inside what seems to be the Red Wolf of Ragadon's boss arena, indicating that it was supposed to the boss there originally instead of the wolf. I just wonder, is it still there but dummied out like the alternate bosses for the start of the game? Is there anything else there?
There's also a Bell-Bearing Hunter and a Flame Chariot on the... ramparts of Stormveil Castle??? In the original reveal trailer??? Yeah, it's weird.
@@StellarElite1 Seems like there's a lot of out of place stuff in the trailer, Lansseax shows up in it except she's in Caelid
@@StellarElite1 In the release version bell bearing hunter is more like the pursuer and does actually appear in stormveil as an unnamed mini boss.
@@Aetius_of_Astora AH THAT'S SICK. I wish they kept that! ... or perhaps not, knowing how ball bustingly difficult that little asshole is.
Might be interesting to know, that (according to Google-translate) "mari kesu" means to cancel out.
And when we look at Serosh, he certainly seems to suppress/cancel out Hoarah Loux.
And it can still hold some meaning in the current lore. Marika is the one who banned Hoarah because of his brutal tendencies, so we can guess she always disliked that in him, or that it was something she thought would go against her plans sooner or later. And it does make sense that she bestowed a Serosh in him, creating it in the same way Maliketh was to her : a tool to make sure he wouldn't stray from the path she chose for him
まり is not a word or a word component in this case, 消す is doing all the heavy lifting in that definition. This really doesn't mean anything. Even if you take the stance that it's a portmanteau of Marika + 消す, it's really not likely that Fromsoft would conceptualize it like that, it's much more likely to be a coincidence in the phonetics that a native speaker wouldn't bat an eye at.
@@thegondola9877 Well, you definitely know a lot more about Japanese than me, but it seems like you're right.
As for the coincidence: Is it possible, that it's a pun? Since these are just filenames, a developer could have used their powers to joke around. I certainly would have :3
@@AkKuOfHearts It's probably more the fact that Japanese doesn't really have a way to write the 'th' sound in Maliketh. Like a lot of non-native words, they replace the ending with a 'u' sound. All in all, 'ma - ri - ke - su' is a pretty faithful way of how you'd pronounce the name in Japanese. (The 'l' being swapped for a 'r' is also very common.)
@@jackkendall6420 it's not just pretty faithful, it's 100% faithful. Japanese, like about 3/4 of languages in the world, does not have the dental fricative, and so its speakers do not recognize it as a distinct sound. /ð/ and /θ/ are written and understood conceptually with the /s/ sound.
This Loux lineage is very interesting, and it made me remember something that Margit said to the Tarnished about "warrior blood", was that just a compliment or did it mean something?
Probably an insult, warriors love battle and a good challenge. We are being insulted as challenging beings way out of our league and insulted as doomed to fail
I believe it was stated somewhere that the tarnished are descendants of Godfrey
The current tarnished (or most of them, at least) are descendants of Godfrey's clan
@@TSebster9 I mean, for what I understand. Tarnished are the people that were exiled from The Lands Between, just like Godfrey.
I want a mod changing Horah Loux’s model to gold mask. Same moveset and everything, just different model
A noodly sunflower-headed humanoid piledriving you... ah, Bloodborne vibes...
I want the mod to do the exact opposite, with gold mask being absolutely ripped and a towering, half naked, scarred, bloodied giant
The ever brilliant power bomb 🌞
if that happens, I'll consider it canon.
Gold mask gets tired of your bullshit for never bringing the perfect order to life, so he hits the gym and beats your ass until you accept his demand
Now I just have the image of Hoarah curled up like goldmask in the intro with the narrator saying "The ever brilliant Hoarah Loux"
Idk how you find enough stuff to post vids everyday, it's very commendable. You have my respecc !
probably a build up. i doubt they just wake up every day, search one single thing, and be done. they probably already know what the next 10 videos will be about and have a build up of topics. just a guess though.
Even if cut content stuff is of dubious applicability from a lore-analysis standpoint, it's also always fascinating to get a peek into the development cycle and some of the changes a game goes through.
this makes perfect sense, i saw a comment suggesting hoarah loux was based on cu chulainn because he gave up his name to serve his lord and can enter a berserk rage, he killed a lords hound and asked to be its replacement. i felt like this kind of adds up with the other dog imagery. maybe at some point before the age of the erdtree hoarah loux defeated maliketh and asked to be marika's lord and thats why
It’s interesting because I took more Herakles inspiration from Godfrey but it could be they pulled from multiple sources with this character
Maliketh being bound to godfrey could explain the nature of the "Long march" where godfrey and his soldiers left the lands between and travelled as far away as they could. This could've been to secretly dispose of maliketh.
something i don’t think godfrey would be able to do,
in honesty, but would probably be such a spectacle of a fight.
It does make some sense that Godfrey's role was a bit slapdash and altered a lot.
He's more or less just plopped into the game with zero build-up. Sure, the implications to his character are neat. Barbarian playing as Regal Lord who then abandons the facade. But it's just a concept given to us by item description.
Kind of highlights one of those issues with the Souls series. Sure, the lore is interesting and it's cool to figure it out through item descriptions and context based on location, but with how From often changes their mind about story elements, it does leave the story suffering in places. Such as a really important character feeling forced in.
I feel like the Hero class and the Warrior class had their names switched around at some point, seeing as how Nepheli goes on and on about being a warrior and stuff. And the hero set doesn't really look much heroic.
The Hero in Blue lore also supports this, hmmm.
not to mention his name is Hoarah Loux, *Warrior*
Having you focus on the rings in Maliketh’s arena around 3 minutes is so amazing. I love you work and your eye and attention to detail are phenomenal!!
i really appreciate your videos, they always share something interesting and you always make it straight to the point. very relaxing vibe too, thank you
I’m wondering how much of the inexplicable lore of the Souls series comes from these kind of rewrites. Note to self - before you release an Epic play musical chairs with the names to give it that touch of mystery.
As silly as it may sound, there's a useful element to doing that. Legends are not the same as histories, and a few muddled details, blurred identities, and shared names can provide the mystique needed to push bland facts into a curiosity magnet.
I know Dark Souls 3 nearly had a very different final boss; with Sulhyvahn being the “King of the Eclipse”, an epic final challenge at the endgame
I never even picked up on the Hoarah Loux / Nepheli Loux name connection until this video, and I have over 300 hours in Elden Ring and did her whole questline.
I'm stupid. 😶
Why are these videos so oddly soothing to watch?
I think... originally the story was split into two time periods - this is supported by some of the cut dialogue from Godfrey, where he talks to the player and sends them on their quest.
I think it was originally that the player was going to go out into the world of Elden ring, gain to great runes, and then based on which factions they destroy to get those great runes, the rest of the story would follow (probably in a similar vein to the way Lyndell has two settings- golden and ash)
We would get two runes, then set the Erdtree on fire, then fight the factions in the future after we get mortality/time running again.
1) this fits some of the early promos that advertised the player choice being more important, stuff that ended up mostly cut.
2) It explains a LOT of the cut Covenant stuff
3) It makes sense to cut in a game this size, since from a design perspective since making all those changes to the world (and locking the player into a chosen area for the end) both balanced and fun would be HARD.
4) Something similar actually happened in Dark Souls 1, wherein the player could get stuck in the painting and be unable to get out until they beat the level. Many players didn't like it...
NOTEABLE: Logically it would follow that certain areas might have originally been end game states of the world. I'm guessing mostly the areas that inexplicably have to be warped to when Fromsoft usually has you walk. But some of the regular areas might also count.
Caelid and the Mountain of the Giants might have been representative of the end game following certain factions proceeding to the endgame at one point. While Nokstella, Faram Azula, The Halgitree, and Deeproot Depths also have arguments in favor of them being representative of an endgame state, due to how you reach them. Interestingly, each still roughly corresponds to an ending that ended up incorporated in game.
1) It would explain Caelid's... everything, really...
2)
Caelid - siding with Malaina (or maybe Redahn) and events ion the backstory proceeding as they ended up in the game.
Faram Azula - Siding with the Flame of Frenzy (Order is breaking down and the world breaking up/being destroyed.)
Nokstella - Ranni's ending possibly.
Deeproot - The Ones Who Live In Death lord ending - yes, you can get to it without warping, but I think I'd still count it.
The Halgitree - Possibly Miquila... It's different enough from the rest of the game, and reached in that same warp-to-new-place thing that seems to indicate tacking on assets.
...
Anyway. that's my theory crafting for today.
I've always found it difficult to rely on repurposed or removed content for clarity. Ideas get shuffled and cut for many reasons during a games development. Sometimes last minute additions are made but fit into the game nicely and sometimes they are shoe horned in there terribly. I don't think overall it's a representation of the final product or what MAY have been and it's simply devs just changing things for either the sake of time constraints or issues discovered during development and nothing more. It's fun to speculate but at the same time I wouldn't put so much serious thought or form theories about cut content.
I think the only cut content that really hurts is the Kalé questline. While it might not fit perfectly, it does add some weight to Frenzied Flame and why some individuals lean into it, as extreme and harmful as it is. Right now the only thing Frenzied Flame ending does to lure you into it is basically do some very fake heartstring pulling by Shabriri telling you to spare Melina. However, with this questline you would have felt genuinely sorry for the merchant tribe and given the merchants that you meet a more satisfying conclusion and almost, and I mean almost, make you willingly choose Frenzied Flame.
Right now Frenzied Flame mostly exists as "based ending" for those who really hate the Crawfish and Revenants, but this I think would have fleshed out the frenzied flame ideology a lot which makes me sad to see that it got cut, despite its incredible voiceacting.
Really hoping the DLCs ties many things together and expands on lore. I feel the ER lore doesnt paint a overall picture the way that Ds did.
Agreed. It’s incoherent and comes off like a parody of the fantasy genre.
After revisiting some old lore videos from the time DS1 and 2 had been launched (and having been around DS3's launch), I can say that From has always been that stingy with some of the lore aspects. ER actually shows a lot that others wouldn't.
We aren't getting DLC unfortunately
Nah it’s the same level of fuckery lore wise, there’s always been open and unanswered questions throughout the history of souls games.
@@HalcyonEX what makes you say that
Your Twilight Princess music makes me insanely nostalgic and I love it!
I first-tried that boss (thanks to gold NPC summon), so I couldn’t absorb much. But I felt the lion was actually puppeteering Godfrey at first.
And AMAZING that one of the lore names in the game didn’t start with M or G!! (Honestly, I lost track of all the similar names: Malania, Maquella, Michelob)
I would love to see something like an elden ring director's cut in the future where everything removed is included.
Kale's questline will be the first one I will go through. I watched a video that brought back the cut out questline and boy it was pretty good questline to follow.
I've just made the connection: when you're panning over the mysterious lady with the three wolves, that this must be the original owner of the Spirit Caller Bell and of Torrent that is often mysteriously mentioned. Why? The motif of three wolves is also seen in the (erroneously named) "Lone Wolf Ashes," which is an ash that summons 3 wolves and is given to you alongside the spirit caller bell. Idhafc what that implies more broadly, but it's something.
I think Torrent is also implied to be a young Ancestor Spirit (both spectral horses with horns that can double jump) so perhaps she was part of the Eternal City. This would explain why Ranni knew her as well considering how closely connected she is with them.
But doesn't Ranni refer to the original owner as "he"? Or was she talking about Torrent?
Also consider that, from context, that statue of a girl with the three wolves is almost certainly meant to represent Marika. Who, probably not coincidentally, seemingly has three aspects within the narrative (Queen Marika the Eternal, Radagon of the Golden Order and Melina the Kindling Maiden).
@@brentgarrison6245 how is Melina an aspect of Marika, isn't she implied to be a daughter
Well, the three lone wolves aren't erroneosly named. They were in fact wolves without a pack, thus lone wolves, until they met each other, if I remember correctly.
Ah, Twilight Princess music ... this was a nice trip down memory lane
This has got to be one of the coolest channels on CZcams.
I would not have nearly as much of an interest in these games had it not been for your videos. Thanks for the awesome content
Love your vids, thank you for taking the time to find all this for us!
I always thought the answer to this mystery was contained within that statue in Maliketh's boss room, but no theory I can think of makes sense either.
I used to think that Maliketh, The Beast Clergyman and Serosh were fractions of Marika's shadow. That doesn't make sense though since The Beast Clergyman and Maliketh are the same in all but choice of attire.
It just doesn't add up...
maliketh and gurranq are one and the same. otherwise it makes no sense why gurranq would have the rune of death. I actually think that people are reading to much into this. Serosh was the Regent of beasts but due to the fact that we literally never see an animal with five fingers (i think the lion guardians have four, correct me if im wrong please) its safe to assume regent of BEASTS refers to beastmen not actual beasts. And maliketh makes sense as an offshoot of the beastmen as most of them seem more lion-like that the greater will could have potentially fucked around with them to create the shadows. The Reason i believe the GW had direct influence on malikeths birth is because there is one line in the gaem which makes absolutely no sense. The game straight up says maliketh and marika are halfsiblings which is literally not possible unless something fucked around with their biology. Something the grerater will (specifically elden beast) might be able to pull of. So i think serosh isnt a part of marikas shadow although i admit that the statue does raise questions. Maybe marika had more than one shadow and we just dont know the others? (To be fair that is EXTREMELY far fetched)
It's a From game my friend, it's not supposed to add up, you're supposed to applaud the extremely creative and complex story while pretending it's not largely nonsensical and inconsistent
@@raptorxrise5386 I suppose the 'half siblings' thing could be a translation error. The game is apparently riddled with them, so I wouldn't be surprised.
@@tortyreus2384 I'd agree with you, but the world design choices of fromsoft aren't unintentional. We just have little to no answers until if or when the DLC comes. I'm just enjoying the speculation.
@@raptorxrise5386 one of the problems you're having is that you're bringing biology into this at all, when you should be thinking of mythology and divine lineages. One divine child being a wolf man and the other not isn't the weirdest thing to have ever been written
I want to imagine that the (demi)gods all had stands, but the mechanics for everyone else got nixed and piled onto Godfrey.
Really insightful, great video! The lore just gets better and better for this game
I much prefer what we got, Serosh is rad and Godfrey being the chieftain of the badlands is also a nice twist. I can't really see Goldmask being this massive gigachad that somehow led a bunch of rowdy bandits lol
My expectation would be that Goldmask was just named Hoarah Roux/Hoarah Loux and the character we know of now as Hoarah Loux didn't exist. Godfrey simply didn't have that side of his personality.
@@ZullietheWitch Ah, gotcha. Makes sense, although the imagine of buff chieftain Goldmask is still hilarious to imagine lol. Love your work Zullie thanks for the reply!
@@ZullietheWitch I imagine that Godfrey may have always had that barbarian side to him, but Godfrey might have been his only name at some point in development.
Its sad that we don't get to fight Sherosh. Maybe the alleged DLC will make us travel back in time (like pretty much every Miyazaki DLC) and fight the Lion in its prime.
Thank you for making your videos, they're amazing. Thank you.
Your research clarifies so many aspects of the game, making for a much greater experience inmersing into the lands betwen. So thankful Zullie ❤❤🤗🤗
Godfrey/Horah Loux always reminds me of Hawkwood's dialogue from DS3 about Aldrich: "And they made him a Lord of Cinder - not for Virtue but for Might."
It may not have been the original concept but I think the duality of Godfrey makes him a much more compelling and almost sympathetic character. Marika needed an unstoppable warrior and that's exactly what she empowered Horah Loux to become. Yet as the goddess of the Golden Order, once the last great enemies were slain she needed a Lord to match to perfect order that she desired for the world. A Lord that embodied the perfect, virtuous order of Marika but in the end neither Marika nor Godfrey could escape the reality that Horah Loux had been made into the First Elden Lord, Godfrey, "not for Virtue but for Might."
And in his final battle with the Tarnished, he finally gives up facade of Virtue that he's been trying to uphold even after Marika banished him from the Lands Between.
Why does it seem like every aspect of this game was suddenly and haphazardly changed like a month before release?
Because that's how Waterfall Development works sadly.....
(QA is done at the end)
I wish this wasn't the standard in gaming.
The beastclaw great hammer description might imply that serosh started the beast incantation line.
I want Nepheli to be a DLC optional boss. Imagine fighting a more badass version of her but with the Stormhawk King clinging to her back like Serosh.
Makes you wonder if our western site of the fan community doesn't spend tens and tens of hours that we'll never get back, trying to decipher cryptic lore about things, that weren't that cryptic at all possibly and just got messed up in translation from Japanese.
My only question about Godfrey is, how did he died in the badlands, how powerful are the creatures in the badlands that even Godfrey couldn't handle them.
I really hope we get a badlands dlc somewhere in the future, maybe even get a different ending by helping Godfrey survive and fighting elden beast alongside him, becoming Godfrey's loyal right hand.
I mean in fairness without grace he may have lost a lot of his strength and, more importantly, his immortality, so he probably aged. Not to mention he’s impaled when we see him, that doesn’t look like what beasts do, it looks like what humans do (or beastmen maybe).
Is it mentioned anywhere that he died to beasts ?
By the spear on his stomach (reminiscent of Marika's) it could be not a beast, but some outer god or vessel (like the tarnished or Placidusax)
At minimum I come to your videos for the music, but I always end up with some great knowledge about the story :3
Thank you Zullie!
Even if it's just a theory, damn you came up with a pretty good one. So many ramifications just from this detail.
The idea that Marika binded her beast to Godfrey is a pretty cool one, but then I suppose if they went along with it they wouldn't be able to have Maliketh as a boss, along with many other changes.
I think its pretty obvious Goldmask was originally supposed to just be Godfrey's new identity... until they made Goldmask an entirely new character. Considering others has the same thing: Gurranq and Maliketh, Margit and Morgott..
It all adds up once you realize Godfrey is the narrator. Compare how they say 'Tarnished' during the intro, ending, and his death monologue. Same voice and intonation.
Like the ringing of a bell, the signal was given, and the chosen Tarnished began their progression to the Elden Tree, fattening with souls acquired during the trek. The harvester awaits those souls, as it means a fight with the baddest warrior in the lands is to be had, exactly what Godfrey wants.
I still remember finding your channel when lobos jr shouted you out years ago, it's great to see how much the channel has grown
6 seconds gang
Yoooooo
Ah, the classic problem in "a game where you piece the story together from clues" being that sometimes you can't even know where what you're supposed to work with ends, and where older development begins. It kinda ruins the fun a bit IMHO.
In truth only happens when opening the game files and such, something never intended from the devs...
I mean, what exactly is the issue here. Nothing in this video changes how we understand the lore/story of Elden Ring.
God hearing that music I genuinely thought I was watching a twilight princess video and when I turned and looked at the screen my brain was so confused. Shot me back to 2007 like I never left.
I have a much less grand and speculative idea. They just had a lot of names and kept moving them around until they were satisfied.
Watching your series on Elden Ring has been most bittersweet Zullie. Typically your thoughtful examinations make me have an "a-ha!" moment or two, but I feel like unearthing cutting floor ideas and content on this game in particular's story is reclaiming the true story amidst all the half measures of this game's core narration.
First you gave us the horrors of all the various creatures riding other creatures, but now my nightmares will be filled with visions of Beast Clergy riding Godfey to go into a second phase of Maliketh and Hoarah Loux coming after me >.<
Thanks Zullie, Witch indeed lol.
Awe, I thought this was going to explain how Godrey's Ax is already broken in the giant painting of him in Stormveil.
Considering where you find some of the Painter spirits, I suppose it can be assumed that painting was made *during* the Long March. It never really says how long ago the Long March was or how long it lasted, but it was probably long enough for that painting to have gotten popular of the First Elden Lord post-exile!
@@dracses4529 or this isn't the first time he's returned
gwyn's theme/ moment's peace for these videos will slap ngl
We could all be calmer people if we had our own shoulder kitty.
Best soft soft tutorial for beginners on CZcams! I'm an absolute beginner and all the other tutorials I've found on CZcams have been so
I still just can’t get over the fact that his stand was a handicap.
I have to admit that your videos are a wonderful part of being a souls fan
Thank you for another wonderful video, Zullie.
Love vids like this keep up the great work
thanks for the work
always better cinematography
I love the idol LOZ music in the background. It fits on so many occasions
YOURE MAKING ME CRY WITH ALL OF THE TWILIGHT PRINCESS SONGS
Just gonna say, I love the twilight princess music in the background. It's my favorite zelda game and at least the music you have playing is so calming
I can comfortably say another great video from my favorite witch.
90% sure the that Tarnished warriror who broke his axe is actually us using some time travel shenanigan on a future DLC
Every video is a fucking banger! Incredible work.
I can’t wait for the cut BloodBorne content to be in the elden ring DLC. Maquilla and Melenia’s wolves
This explains how Malekith have that giant lion hammer.
Well...Serash is very...boring? There is to feel information about him that, he seens quickly put in the game...
Writers: Boss, our storyline is still a mesh so the…
Miyazaki: The game is finished, we will release it. Let Witch Zullie & Vaati Vidya figure it out.