Luftwaffe vs B-17: How to Defeat the Flying Fortress
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- čas přidán 17. 05. 2024
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During WW2 German pilots had to face off against large numbers of B-17. Many stories are told about how they would engage the 'Flying Fortress' but what do the primary documents and experience reports say? Let's find out.
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- Sources
BArch, RL 36 55, General der Jagdflieder, Brb.Nr. 1018/43 g.Kdos., Berlin 2. Juli 1943
- MHV Interview with Prof. Neitzel:
• German Army: Why No Co...
- Timecodes
00:00 - Disclaimer
00:29 - Intro
01:13 - Source
02:13 - Introduction statement of General der Jagdflieger
03:32 - Propaganda
05:40 - Experience reports by Jagdgeschwader
06:01 - Frontal Attacks
07:00 - Cockpit?
08:04 - Conclusion on Frontal Attacks
09:29 - Attacks from behind
10:30 - War Thunder Sponsor
10:40 - Conclusion on Attacks from behind
11:22 - Individual attacks: Behind
11:59 - Moral: Formation vs Individual attacks
13:57 - Conclusions
16:20 - War Thunder: Sponsored Segment
17:18 - Outro
#sponsored #B17 #militaryaviationhistory
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What if we are already members of WT ?
War thunder is getting worse and worse every day. I quit 2 weeks ago, not going to lie I would not recommend it until Gaijin gets their act together and makes it balanced/removes the p2w.
@@natedogggaming1607 Stay below 5.0, then.
From my point of view, Gaijin do try to improve. Yes, the top tier is always going to be a massacre. That game needs to make money somehow. But low and mid tier are pure joy. And the best improvement of late? Bluewater fleet.
@@vaclav_fejt Yes, but Il-2 Sturmovik is better for those planes IMO. Just personal preference at that point.
About 30 years ago, I had the privilege of speaking with a gentleman who was accompanying a Collings Group air display at Hanscom Field in Bedford MA. He was sitting on the asphalt tarmac under the Collings B- 17 ( the same aircraft that caught fire and was destroyed 2 years ago, with tragic loss of life).
The gentleman was in fact a B- 17, ball turret gunner in the Mediterranean theatre, had flown a good number of missions, during one of which, his aircraft was shot down.
He would sit on the tarmac, next to the ball turret, begin to talk with someone about his experiences and the aircraft. A group of listeners would gather and listen intently to his stories, thank him for his courage and service and that group would drift away.
After listening to a couple of these presentations I went up to the gentleman and asked him how a German fighter pilot might tend to approach/ attack a B-17. Apparently, sparking a memory, still touched with a sense of consternation, his demeanor turned aggressive and he said;
“ You know, that son of a b___tchsat off of our 4 o’clock position and just kept spraying us.
The tail gunner couldn’t swing far enough around to get to him.
The top gunner couldn’t get his guns down far enough to get to him.
I couldn’t get my guns up high enough to reach him.
All we had was one, 50cal., waist gunner who we kept yelling at to get him- get him!”
One would have to presume that for a German fighter to have “ sat off of our 4 o’clock...” that this B_ 17 had fallen out of formation and was a target of opportunity; the fighter was not under the stress of converging fire from any other aircraft.
It was a unique moment to hear the recounting of such an intimate combat experience.
Cheers.....
Franz Stigler advocated a near-vertical approach, diving through the bomber formation at high speed from above, then regaining altitude and attacking again
Of the B-17's shot down/crashed and intoragation of captured crews, the Germans (and Italians and Japanese) would have studied the guns and their firing arcs. With this knowledge they would have developed tactics on how to best press in their attacks. The 4 o'clock (all mens land) approach would be from such studies.
Hidden Gem... of insight.
Yes I believe it was a one on one attack and defense. Otherwise that side attack by the German would have drawn lots of fire from the pack of bomber’s.
@@steveperreira5850 Hmmm wonder why the pilot didn't kick the rudder to allow the tail gunner a go. Unless as you say it was one on one and the 17 was in such a state that retaining control was difficult.
Until his death in 2014, I was in contact with Luigi Gorrini, second highest Italian fighter scorer in WW2. He told me that the best tactics when dealing with B17s and B24s was the frontal attack from above and about 15-30 degree. This tactic was however not always feasible due to the vectoring angle and afforded only one pass (rarely two). This one pass also because of having to deal with escorting P51s, P47s and P38s. Due to the relative speed (600+ mph) only a very short burst could be fired. Frontal attack required also nerves of steel and perfect timing when firing.
There was a danger of collision with the bomber in head-on attacks.
One Luftwaffe ace heard a colleague complaining that in head-on attacks the bombers simply would not go down. The ace retorted that was because he was not hitting them.
Lorenzo Delfino The memoirs of an American B17 rear-gunner also confirms that. He wrote that as the war progressed fewer and fewer German fighters ever tried to attack from the rear and instead switched to a frontal attack from above which this rear-gunner reported was:"More efficient for them and more deadly for us." He knew that he was unlikely to be hit himself being at the rear but also knew that this was little consolation to him if the plane went down fast and he had to bail out... Luckily it never came to that for him.
You wouldn't know how or where to get hold of primary references for the Italian Air Forces in WW2, would you? I'd dance at your wedding...(thinking of writing a book)
Hai visto anche il suo documentario?
@@rbd5868 quale documentario?
I really like hearing what the actual fighter wings had to say. Love the original source material!
yes, invaluable
Their accounts are the only source for a true historian. Hearsay doesn't count.
Glad you enjoyed it
That depends. A future historian interested in *what people thought* of that topic in 2020 will want the hearsay.
I agree! Thank you for using the original sources!
I always like it when you use gameplay footage to explain things, it works really well to get the point across.
Glad to hear it!
War Thunder looks good but in order to get realistic battles against up to 300 other human players, Aces High can't be beat.
@@dingdong2103 Aces High??? Wow I was playing that back in 2001/2002(I was 15 yo at the time),had no idea the game is still playable...
I can still remember how amazing was taking part of some special event (can't forget about the invasion of Sicily and the battle of Okinawa),with hundreds of planes taking part, flying in formation with your squadron and waiting the order to engage...
@@nicklazza2222 Unfortunately player numbers are down to 40-100. I was number 1 ranked at best in fighters in 2002 btw.
Because very little actual footage exists
Because the luftwaffe stored all their gun camera footage in a central location ,the air ministry building in Dresden 🔥
"You either get the Iron Cross, or the wooden cross" -Dolph Galland
Sorry but that doesn’t sound like something Galland would have said.
@RYAN JONATHAN MARTIN Sounds a lot more likely.
And in many cases it was both crosses....
I recently stumbled upon an interview that someone did with Franz Stigler. He was asked if there was a specific spot on the plane that they'd aim for. He said "You’d shoot anywhere you can, because your position was not always good. You didn’t just shoot at the wing…you shot everything."
I don’t know what it’s like to shoot at some thing when it can shoot back, sounds kind of scary. I’ve done a lot of hunting Of fast flying mourning doves. Head on shots from below is typical, they coming at you, not the hardest shot but very little time to react. Shooting them from the tail going away is easier in the scenario where they take off from a ground position flying away (in this scenario you are stalking them, they see you and flush away). That is easy. Shooting them from the side is the hardest, of course requires the most deflection (lead), tricky to estimate, but you get better at it by practice.
I took a friend Dove hunting once, he was good at skeet and trap shooting, but had never shot at real birds. He couldn’t hit anything, because in skeet and trap, there are weaknesses in the game. In skeet you always know what direction the clay pigeon is going to go, making it predictable. In trap, the clay pigeon is typically set up flying away from you, , Maybe at an angle, but still that is an easier tail shot, more or less.
At the end of the day my friend had no Kills from aerial shots, he said the doves were, “ I swear to God Steve, dodging my shots.” Ha ha!
So the specific spot they'd aim for was... The plane. Nice.
@@steveperreira5850 I was never much of a hunter ... being to lazy to turn a dead animal into a meal myself but I have occasionally shot at some birds with BB Guns and Shot Guns. On my Dove Hunting forays - the dead birds were turned into a meal by one of my Aunts - but - she couldn't be sure she had gotten all the shot out of the bird - and we were warned not to bite down hard and fast but chew slowly. Sure enough - I remember finding shot with my teeth.
Two things.
First off - yes - those birds can see the pellets coming and dodge them - but - they do have to see them and they do have to have the time to dodge them. Thus - if you are firing on them from their 10 or 2 o'clock positions at some distance - they can see the pellets and take action (not to mention seeing you ...) but from other angles they may not. From head on or close up - they may not have the time to react.
The thing I remember most about Dove Hunting - was standing in the middle of an open field - with no birds coming into sight the whole time - but hearing the rain drop like sound of other hunters shot falling about us.
.
Bob Smith : everything you say brings back fond memories. I’ve been rained on many times. Those other hunters generally being quite undisciplined, but sometimes they just have terrain obscuring other hunters in the fall out region.
I actually didn’t take my friend seriously when he said they were dodging, I never really noticed that when I was hunting and I had quite a bit of experience. But maybe a longer range shot, maybe they can dodge that?
@@steveperreira5850 They do in fact dodge at the shot if they have ever been shot at before. Higher velocity shells helped, a little. I hunted southern quail for years. There were times when a duplicate of a skeet, or trap shot occurred but not many; usual a late riser. Most every time was something different, and FAST! Regarding lead, it's just about impossible to over lead a crossing shot on a fast moving Mallard duck. Those, can be humbling.
In response to the title, with a plane silly
r/techinicalytrue
wait why are you here
Amateur, the true defeat is in letting them defeat you and then grabbing that sweet marshal plan money!
And ALL OF THE FLAK
Hello iron
That is how my father was shot down, from behind and below, in the big blind spot of the Lancaster he was flying. Happened over lake Constance. He woke up in an Austrian hospital 2 weeks later.
Apparently you can find yourself in random places in Austria (per MHV).
Your father is/was a hero and I know your proud.
Wow! He was flying a B-I i imagine. As both the b-II and b-III had turrets on the underside
Flying daytime or nighttime? Generally speaking, British four-engine bombers flew at night.
What is the registration of the Lancaster he flew in?
I had a family member who was shot down and killed over Hamburg flying a Lancaster on his third mission. I also had a family member who was a night fighter pilot killed on his third night mission flying against The RAF over Hamburg. He was buried in the village cemetery in Germany where my mother came from. Incidentally on both sides of my family Great Grandfathers who fought on either side on the Somme in 1916 WW1 were killed within two weeks of each other in the same area of operations. My British Great Grandfather is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial and my other Great Grandfather on the village memorial along with my Grandfather who was MIA in WW2 outside Kiev.
What a world we are descended from.
Thank you for sharing.. :)
My American father flew 48 combat missions on B-17’s over Germany and was shot down twice once by fighters the other by flak, ironically my German Opa was a Luftwaffe flak gunner during the war so I’ve heard stories from both sides
When Georing got progressively fatter, Luftwaffe got progressively thinner.
coincidence?
So the Herr Fätso was eating the German planes?
Stress eating??
Coincidence? I think not!
The extreme extension of the German frontlines was Hitler's decision, not Görings's. Hitler was a vegetarian, so there you have it; eat meat :-)
If I recall correctly, Douglas Bader wrote about head-on attacks on bomber formations, that it disrupted the whole formation tending to break it up and make it easier to pick off individual aircraft afterwards, but it was also very easy to whoosh through the formation so fast that, by the time you had turned and positioning for a stern attack, the bomber formation was too far ahead to be caught up.
Excellent, informative video. Thanks!
Thank you. That was fascinating. My late father was a B-17 pilot in the 8th Air Force, stationed in England during WWII. While he had many stories of that time, he spoke very little about the combat flying itself. You have provided a unique view that I would otherwise not know.
What I have heard from the lovely old man who actually flew Me-109 in the West is that since late 1943 they were just attacking instantly after first visual contact from every position they could, simply because if they were waiting for fighter escorts to engage in the battle, the whole attack approach would be probably unsuccesful. That's why their Staffelführer was not intrested in loosing precious time for philosophy, instead they were pushing to attack from any position free from fighter screen.
My grandfather was a B-17 pilot whose combat tour split 1942 -1943. He confirms your research. One of the few things he mentioned to me about the war was the Germans preferred tactic of attacking from head on and from below. He said they would fly up, fire at you and conduct a split S to pull away below to set up again. Obviously the added chin turret on the B-17G confirms the head on attacks was serious enough to justify the modification.
Most interesting to me are the psychological effects on the pilots of the various attack options. The peer pressure associated with fighting as a group made the pilots much more effective than waging battle as an individual. When people today wonder how they got young men to run into a hail of machine gun and artillery fire for an infantry assault, or to be sitting ducks in a slow moving bomber for deadly flak and fighter fire, it seems the military leadership of the time relied heavily on this "peer pressure" psychology to get these young men to sacrifice themselves. I don't think doing it for country or fuhrer alone would have been enough motivation to make that kind of sacrifice. Very interesting report.
This programming has been used on all of us, by so called rulers, for thousands of years. It is working quite well on us now, and I don't just mean in hot wars.
The video reminded me of a german pilot's memoir titled 'I flew for the Führer' by Heinz Knoke who attacked B-17s. I know one has to be careful with memoirs and take them with many grains of salt but what stood out in it was that it gives the impression that the defensive firepower of the B-17 in the combat box was formidable to German pilots and did have to devise tactics such as the head on attack to try and overcome it. The memoir did also seem to indicate that the head on attack was a one chance shot per sortie and afterwards it was often chaotic and coordination in attacks was attempted but they ultimately took the shots they could get.
Another tactic worth mentioning is the attempt of the luftwaffe to drop bombs in bomber formations to try and break them up. I came across it in the memoir which Knoke claimed was originally his idea and was taken seriously by German high command (a claim I find a little far fetched) but nonetheless have encountered the mention of the tactic in other sources I've read. Have you encountered any evidence of using bombs against bombers to at least try and break up their formations being used or mentioned in any primary sources you've come across?
In any case it was great to hear from the primary sources in the video. Nice job!
He also tried rockets from behind, but these methods were finished once the long range escort fighters were available.
I read the same book and found no reason for the author to lie. All co!bat reports are to be taken with a grain of salt it is confusing circumstance the Germans tried airel mines flichetes. rockets they even had planes designed for rammimg
Its rather interesting that most people would assume the head on attacks would focus on the cockpit when you mentioned it also allowed good shots on the engines as well.
At the closure rates of a head on attack, hitting anything would have been difficult.
@@mikeklaene4359
Specifically targeting the cockpit area and hitting it requires either luck or very good shooting. When attacking head-on the attacking pilot simply has more high value targets on the approaching bomber. Try to hit the center of mass. But once you begin to fire just how much does the vibration of the guns cause your shots to go off target. How many rounds of cannon and MG fire were required to bring down one bomber.
@@mpetersen6 from the front and below, for a skilled experienced fighter pilot, I assume that isn't really hard. But since the Germans lacked exactly that..
The bomber in the formation is not really fast compared to the fighter, and in the climb the fighter isn't that fast as well. So lining up and hitting specific parts is doable.
But needs planning, a good approach and a steady hand. For that it needs experience.
@@SheriffsSimShack
There is also the pucker factor.
Great video! Would love to see more of this kind. I really like that you, as a German, have the ability to research, translate and interpret primary sources.
Thank you, Jan
I am a retired , formerly professional, historian; Ph.D. was a double degree in two disciplines; history and psychology. So although my doctoral thesis was on the history of Western scientific psychology, I had interests far beyond those and eventually wrote a book on the History of History in the Movies. I say all that so you'll have an idea of who wants to congratulate you,. Your conduct is beautifully professional, your research skills to match. The pay off at my end is that I have my historical knowledge and horizons expanded through watching your programs. Good work !
About JG26... watching this video remembers me to my grand-oncle. He was 21 when he joined JG26/2 and got a new FW190A-8. Not sure anymore maybe it was an A9. Unfortunately on october 12th, 1944 there was a big attack of the USAF on Bremen and so he climbed up to fight em and never seen again. Like so many young not experienced pilots. 1 month prior to his death he married his girlfriend, a 19 year old girl.
He was declared missing and then after a while declared dead. My grandpa, who was his older brother couldn‘t believe what happened and drove to the area where he was shot down.With his bicycle. More than 100km away. He toured every small town, asking if anyone has seen a plane come down and then drove there and further talk with the people. After 7 days and lots of wrecks he couldn‘t find him. Could‘nt solve the mystery. He never found out what happened to his brother. Had no grave. He was very bitter with it.
In 2018 my mum and me got a call from a german guy who is searching for ww2 fighter wrecks since the 70s and had already solved many unknown fates of WW2 pilots. He told us, he might have found the place and wreck where my grand-uncle died. It was not the Steinhuder Meer (Sea) where my grandpa had expected him. It was a little town not far away, Süstedt.
We phoned and with lots of information from him i also searched the web for possible evidence that day. I found the logs of some US pilots and finally the one, who probbably shot him down that day. A P47 pilot who claimed two kills of FW190s over the Steinhuder Meer that day.
Additionally the guy who found his wreck also found burned parts of a belt beside the wreck but no bones. It wasn‘t very much there of the wreck anymore. Only smaller pieces and some bigger parts deeper down. He sent me a photo of the belt and what i saw frightened me. It was the logo on the belt. It was the one of the small leatherware-store i saw as a child in my hometown where i still live. The store isn‘t there anymore since the 80s but i remembered it. I called him.
He found out, the 2 FW190 pilots who went down that day were buried in the towns graveyard. Both probably under wrong name. It took us some time to get permission to dig em out for a DNA sample.
We also gave our sample and finally last month he called us. It‘s 99% him. In his grave under a wrong name. For 77 years.
Next week we‘ll met and then decide about his new grave in our home town.
Unfortunately my grandpa and my grand-oncles wife are long gone now. But i think they would be happy to know, that we finally solve his fate. And his grave will be beside his. 77 years later.
There was some material I've read years ago mentioning the arc of fire of B17G gunners. It was to teach luftwaffe pilots the best angles of attack to bring the heavy bombers down. I was waiting on a video like this. Nice
Since this report is from 1943, the Luftwaffe was having to deal with B-17Fs....bombers that did not have chin turrets. The G model with the dual .50 cal mg was more prevalent in 1944 and I wonder if this had any impact on the effectiveness of frontal attacks.
+ the Escort that came and had a huge fighter cover umbrella, especially infront of the bombers which intercepted any attempts to headon the bombers.
Not that much, even by mid 1943 a lot of B17Fs had .50 cals installed in custom mounts facing forward. Take a look at pictures of the restored Memphis Belle (not the fake one painted up like it that flies) for an idea. Its not so much the armament, the German fighters are just smaller targets, and the B17s are large and more vulnerable from the front. The only time the Germans focused on rear attacks on B17s or B24s was with their armored FW190 Sturmbock units. Otherwise they seemed to have preferred frontal passes by their single seat fighters.
If I remember correctly in '44 they started using Fw-190A-8s (called Sturmbocke) and attacked in waves from behind. Meanwhile the 109s would try to engage the escorting Mustangs or Thunderbolts. The book I read mentioned that it was pretty much the only tactic the Germans developed that actually had any chance of stopping the B-17s in sufficient numbers but Americans learned to counter that with fighter sweeps.
@@Szweminek797 Yes and one is engaging the bombers the others the mustangs worked out so fine, not.
@@ariannescharfi9366 Well both US pilots and airplanes were superior at this point.
Luftwaffe pilots quickly learned to aim for the big fuel tanks in the wings between the engines and the engines and the fuselage. Even one cannon shell exploding in a fuel tank will doom the B-17 one way or another. Many B-17's took extensive fuselage and control surface damage and still made it back to England. The massed frontal attack is no mystery. RAF fighter squadrons did the same thing in the Battle Of Britain.
I think we see two developments going on:
1. Increasing firepower (time to kill)
2. Increasing range (reducing risk)
The 30mm Mk 108 greatly increased the firepower against the big and slow maneuvering bombers over the 20mm MG 151. Structural damage appears to have the best success since more engines and more fuel tanks probably means you can survive a loss unlike a single engine fighter. A fuel tank explosion was probably also quite devastating and more likely (or even possible) with 30mm incendiary shells, which were used in a 50:50 mix with mine shells.
The 3.7 and 5cm BK cannons increases the range against bombers but they were heavy and ineffective against quick maneuvering fighter planes.
The R4M rockets carried by the Me 262 were quite effective as far as I know since they allowed to engage the bombers at long range without reducing their cannon armament.
Ideal for intercepting bomber formations.
Really interesting video, thanks Chris. I saw a film on CZcams a while back about RAF fighter tactics in the late 40's, they recommended that Meteors engage an enemy bomber formation from the front, they war gamed it with US B29's and reckoned it was the best chance against a massed formation with heavy defensive firepower
Always good to hear from actual participants in this context.
Thank you so much for making these great videos. It was nice to hear confirmation about the use of frontal attacks from a primary source.
My great uncle was a certain Anton Rudolph Piffer who was in JG1 and developed many of the tactics used to attack US bomber formations. He is quite famous in Lufwaffe circles.
Another trick luftwaffe pilots used to use, they would fly in the contrails of a bomber and they would break out of the convergence of the contrails from the engines at point blank range on the tail . They would open fire and dive away. Tail Gunners had to pay close attention to the contrails.
Seeing Bismark and bombers in the same video gives flashbacks of the brilliant IL2 videos on Bo's channel that you were in. Literally non medical anti depressants 😂
I'm shocked that German had words for "gung-ho" and "daredevil".
I don't know what the original German words were but might have included "todesmutig". It tends to be used ironically nowadays but may not have been in the Nazi period.
@@stevekaczynski3793 Google Translate says that "todesmutig" means "brave of death" in English. That does not have the same connotations as "daredevil", but it's similar.
Especially during wartime, rather over-the-top vocabulary tended to be favoured in the media and speeches of the Third Reich. Goebbels or some other leading official said in a speech that "the situation can only be retrieved by wild fanaticism". A comment on this wondered whether Goebbels thought that gentle fanaticism was possible.
@@RonJohn63
The phrase "dare-to-die" (usually used for Chinese republican suicide units) would probably be the closest translation for "todesmutig."
The German word I see most often translated as "daredevil" is "draufgänger" e.g. Operation Draufgänger is usually translated as Operation Daredevil. The literal meaning of that word would be closer to "go-getter" but it is how it tends to be translated.
@@barnabasverti9690 thanks. In American connotation, a "daredevil" is a stunt performer in front of live audiences. Evel Knievel was a daredevil. The US military frowns upon daredevils.
I sat up as soon as you said this would be based on German sources. It makes sense that the best source would be German and not American.
I've been playing DCS for about a year now, and one of my favourite aircraft to fly is the Bf-109K-4. It's fascinating to see that I eventually settled on pretty much exactly these tactics when attacking large formations of heavy bombers. Considering how many times I got shot down while experimenting, I can only imagine the casualties suffered by the men who did it for real. Hard-won lessons indeed.
Excellent, original source info whether from documents or first person testimony is best. Thanks for sharing.
Fascinating. Thanks for bringing us these original wartime reports.
Fascinating! Great research and wonderfully presented!
A most informative look at a rather under examined topic. The point about morale improvement from group attacks is most notable, so obvious but never thought about.
Fantastic work Bis.
I read a paper back book 35 years ago, written by Adolf Garland, Germany's ace of aces. He said with the first operational jet fighters, they attached from front & on high. The first jet fighters could not spool up rapidly, if you gave them too much throttle too quickly ,they would flood out with to much fuel & flame out. So from on high, they would go into a shallow dive & let the wind of the dive help to spool up the turbine & keep increasing the throttle, then they would aim for the cock pit just as this guy said. By the time they would shot through the formation, they'd be going 400 or more mph. Faster than a P51 could fly & they would flatten out closer to ground & run away, only to climb back up for another run at the formation. Those jets were most vulnerable on take off, because as I said, they just couldn't open the throttles wide open at a low air speed. Our P 51 or P 38 or P47 could get them if they surprised them at their base & jumped them. I've seen footage of this. The engines on those first jets had about a 10 hr life span.
Really well done, fascinating coverage. Thank you blessings
The CBS series "Air Power" (narrated by Walter Cronkite) had some excellent footage of B-17's and 24's under attack. Most attacks shown were from below and behind, with German pilots getting so close the bomber filled up their windshield before cutting loose with rockets and cannon.
Great video.
I think the main point to take away is that it’s so easy for us 80 years later to talk about best angles of approach for attack etc. Many of us know the B17/B24 intimately (nerds) arguably better than these German fighter pilots did.
They were up there under pressure to halt an attack on their homeland, scared, often without enough experience, with limited fuel and ammunition. I think the whole ‘they took what they could get’ is likely the most prevailing approach.
The one thing I did find interesting is the attack from immediately below - the bull turret gunner has a somewhat challenging role in that the field of fire they are expected to cover is vast (the largest of all the gunners aboard) - a schwarm attack from below would be extremely difficult for them to deal with effectively.
Is there going to be second part called "How The USAAF Wanted to Defend the B-17"?
Step 1: Just fucking annihilate the Luftwaffe
Step 2: Just fucking annihilate German aircraft factories
@@Cybermat47 interesting though what was a more useful defensively . The .50BMG that shot down the Luftwaffe or the 1000lb bombs that prevented its replacement ?
@@xgford94 I would dare to wager that both were needed, and that neither could do the job alone
Most people don't realize the B-17 barely survived the Navy's wrath to become the legend it did. If it had not well I don't see B-18 Bolos doing well over Europe
If I remember correctly, the most prominent innovation that was introduced with the B-17G (compared to earlier E and F variants) was the addition of the "chin" turret, clearly intended to provide better protection against head-on attacks.
Long long ago there was no CZcams, there were no videos, or access to war footage. I used to gobble up books by flyers- mostly German and British. What little I remember is of the majority of action with the enemy was one on one and how short the bursts of fire was. Not so much that they were saving ammunition but how fleeting the opportunities to shoot were. As you pointed out, the most awarded flyers survived and the survivors wrote books. There are good reasons they survived. Another thing I remember was about night fighters and bombers. You might have radar, you might see lights or fires on the ground, you might see your opponent’s outline or engine exhausts, but your are still basically flying around in the pitch darkness seemingly all on your lonesome and almost stumbling into someone else doing the same.
15:19 - Heinrich Bär. He is wearing a trophy USAAF aircrew leather jacket to which he has attached German epaulettes. His wingman has a trophy fleece jacket from the same source.
WT and your narration is perfect..thank you!!
Great video and very interesting, nothing better than original sources for information on German strategy to engage an attack on a squadron of B-17 and their conclusions about the best ways to do this.
Extremely informative. Thank you for the contribution.
What I like about your channel is that you provide the background details and context on something I believe to be true. Your information also fine tunes ideas I've read about previously. Danke!
excellent source material well done young sir
Outstanding video and presentation.
All I remember from playing European Air War long ago and doing the Luftwaffe campaign with eventual nonstop bomber intercepts, the head on pass was the 1 time luxury on the sortie. Those bombers aren't exactly going slow, either, so making a head on pass, trying to reset to be out ahead of those formations again, and come back for another pass was a big time waster. And that's not even accounting for those occasions when the bomber formations had fighter escorts.
Doing that European Air War campaign, I remember having a bunch of very experienced pilots for 1942 and a bit of 1943. But 1943 when those bomber intercepts were starting to spam a lot. Eventually I'd lose my stable of veteran pilots to attrition. 1944 was hell and got worse as the year progressed. Instead of sending up a healthy 10-12 fighter squadron to intercept, I'd be sending 8, mostly with inexperienced pilots as all my veterans were gone.
1945? LOL 4 fighters.
The worst feeling was when you're preparing you're trying to position for an attack run but notice the cloud of fighter escorts starting to move against you. That was discouraging as hell.
The bomber intercepts were a real PITA to do and I quickly appreciated the problem the Luftwaffe had with these repeated bombing attacks. It just bled their fighters away. Instead of sending a bunch of their fighters for operations in the big Eastern Front, the Luftwaffe was simply hemorrhaging fighters out west or over Germany itself against those bombers and escorting fighters.
Edit: And I completely forgot to mention the Luftwaffe bleeding heavily out in the Mediterranean Theater. Historically they ate heavily losses out there in 1943.
A thorough and amenable presentation. Thumbs up for you!
Excellent! You make arguments based on primary sources.
Bismarck, I think this makes a lot of sense, checking the dates of fighter command recommendations suggesting these frontal attacks, especially seizing on the lack of additional guns at the frontal area of these early 17e’s, but the addition gun placement of an additional.50 (Twin) cal in the G Model made this type of attack more hazardous ⚠️ thrown in there now the P-51 escorts in 44, well “The Jig was up”
I saw a B-17 vid where it was stated that to engage a B-17 it was best done from the 4- or 8 o' clock angle, as only the waist gunners could bring their guns to bear. This was also corroborated in that apparently a waist gunner statistically had an even lower survival rate than a ball turret gunner.
i miss a doctrine paper - these were report collections so just experiences gathered.
What I miss is the general fighter doctrine against the bomber streams even on different level starting with the air defense and pre alarm of JGs to prepare for flight and fight and then the operational instructions or those talks in preparation what they had been talking in advance like new tactics or this time we will go for xyz and try abc.
This collection of reports is about sharing experiences but not the central doctrine document of the headquarter.
I can remember to have read about the ME 262 introduction that had been developed in the Nowotny JG were I grew up, those 3 airstrips in Achmer, Hesepe and Neuenkirchen where only the first and last somehow still exist and had been our playgrounds for building and flying RC models when those 8.8 flak bunkers for the crews were still existing till they found amunition in the mid 90s and finally cleared the whole array. Nowotny had been working on those fighter tactics against the bomber and how to benefit the most.
It would be interesting to compare these reports of success in frontal attacks as to the dates that they are reported to see the success or lack of success when the frontal armament of the B-17 later models was improved later in the war and comparing attacks against the B-17 and B-24, if the B-24 front turret had any effect. Thanks for the excellent info!
Well done. Thanks for the effort.
Thank you for this very valuable piece of historical research. A true youtube gem.
Thanks for all your work!
Great work as always!
Great video, really interesting and well explained!
Thank you for your research, Chris. The Defense of the Reich has long been an interesting topic to me. What is fascinating is how the dynamic of the situation changed so much and so rapidly from late 1942 to early 1944. From the Eighth's small daylight, unescorted 1000 machine armadas with deep fighter escort during the big week. It would be interesting to hear more detail from primary sources about how tactics and strategies changed over this time period and through the end of the war (I know this is a massive and multifaceted topic). Of particular interest is how the Sturmstaffel/gruppen concept developed and was implemented alongside normal JG, ZG, and NJG operations.
Good to hear you found it interesting, hoping to do more on this
Absolutely. ! The development and tactical intention of those heavily armed and armoured 190a8s is a partucularly favourite aspect of the air war for me too.
you know normally I don’t like when big you tubers like PewDiePie and stuff like that play war thunder cause they were sponsored but since bis has been playing war thunder for years with bo it’s actually kind of cool to see the game that helped his growth sponsor him *edit* although I am aware that those you tubers do help the game grow exponentially but it just seems disingenuous so when I hear someone like Bismark actually endorse the game I know it’s coming from a place of actual enjoyment because he’s put time into the game and genuinely finds it enjoyable
Gotta say, those were some top-notch directory sketches you gave us. Great video uwu.
WOW! Found your presentation informative. Presented in a manner not seen in most videos.
As a native Texan English speaker, your English is amazing. Bravo to your education.
German education.
The head-on attack could get you shot up if your angle of approach was off. One of our farm neighbors was in a B-24 crew flying out of North Africa. He shot down one 190 and a probable on a 109. He was up in the nose of the B-24. Both German aircraft were making their approach to the front of the bomber when he shot them. He was also involved in the Ploesti bombing (the famous 1st one). He watched as B-24 after B-24 went down and crashed, especially at low altitude. He knew a lot of the guys in those planes.
I don't know how many missions he was on but there were multiple attacks on Ploesti after the first one. He survived unscratched. You knew when he talked about those B-24's hitting the ground that it had an effect on him. But during a mission you didn't have time to think about the fate of others, just do your job and hope for the best. He was very happy to talk about his time in WW2.
Like most Americans he came from a small farm nestled among small towns (under 1k pop.), milking cows and hundreds of misc farm chores. Suddenly you're ripped from that world into one of high tech aircraft fighting for your life in a far off country that could just as well be an alien planet. Somehow you survive, come home back to your farm life.
WW2 the the BIG event in these men's lives and I never met a WW2 vet who was unwilling to talk about their experience. Even one who could vividly remember each of the 8 German soldiers he killed, and describe it in detail.
His first kill was a wounded German running down a trench trying to escape but he shot him in the back and killed him. He admitted he still felt bad about doing that.
I'm just glad to have been old enough plus interested in WW2 to talk to many dozens of WW2 vets. My only regret is not talking to more and recording their stories for posterity.
Thank you for the enlightening information.
0:40 I have never heard that claim expressed quite like that. I saw an interview with Werner Schroer in the World at War episode, “Whirlwind: Bombing Germany”. In the interview, Schroer talked about the head on attacks and also described attacks from other aspects, including the rear. It’s worth looking at if you can find it. He also talked about the fear experienced by the fighter pilot and how exposed they felt and how they coped with it. Schroer himself was certainly not a fanatic, yet he was a very successful fighter pilot, credited with 114 victories.
Enjoyed your post but thought a few other things warranted a mention if I may. The effect of box formations by the bombers to concentrate defensive fire. Upgunning of German planes. Addition of chin turret on the B17 to counter frontal attacks. Maybe a graphic to show the arcs of fire of the B17's guns. Keep up the good work.👍
Love your videos. Thank you for doing them.
Very good analysis. Thankyou
Fascinating and brilliantly researched, as always.
I would love it if you found some way to do a collaboration piece on some aspect of wartime aviation with Mark Felton. What a heavyweight upload that would be!
What makes your channel (and Bernhards for that matter) special is this top notch scientific approach. You deal with facts, go back to the roots, question the material, you look at a topic at various angles without confirmation bias etc. pp. These points set you apart from the crowd and I enjoy this a lot. Thank you for great information and please keep up the good work.
thank you
I heard that the Luftwaffe preferred
head on attacks, so the B17 was modified from the E and F series to the G series that added a chin turret to the front of the aircraft. That was done to help provide more firepower to try to discourage the head on attack strategy.
During the Battle of Britain, RAF fighters would try head on attacks also.
"Machine-gun fire cracked on every side, and twice there was a hell of a
thump quite close behind us. Two British fighters must have collided with
two of our Dorniers.
The aircraft went spinning down in flames, and below
us several parachutes opened. We looked at each other and gave the
thumbs-up. This time we had come out of the melee unscathed."
LUFTWAFFE DO
17 RADIO OPERATOR HORST ZANDER
This is from the manual for the game "Their Finest Hour: The Battle of Britain" which is filled with such memories by the pilots who fought it.
I've read quite a few ww2 aviation books with accounts written by German pilots and some bomber crew accounts. I think you hit the nail on the head with regard to the tactics they wanted to employ and often did like the head ons. I think it would be very interesting to cover some of the twin engine fighter attack tactics (often failing but intersting none the less)
The development of the 190 of course pretty much follows this doctrine with heavier weight of fire for the expected short opertunity to fire in the head on, the increase in front facing armour etc.
It's is a fascinating subject.
I would love you to cover the attempts to form those huge wave attacks in the heavy 190A8s and your opinion on whether this was a sound tactic or a case of work with what you have or desperation.
I value your input as I Ferl you have a very pragmatic and informed view.
Thank you for all your hard work. Extremely entertaining.
An excellent well researched video. Thank you.
I love this channel, and also, I love the fact that you play games with Bo, because holy cow I get a good laugh every time!
Great sources of limited availability information. I love the videos. Great Job
Bismarck, this was a fantastic video, just what the doctor ordered! Myself (and many plane nerds) absolutely adore these primary source videos. Also, your more recent 30mm tank busting video was a topic of particular interest to me; every time I searched for MK 103 videos however, DO 335 /410 War Thunder videos were the only results.
Bismark, always interesting stuff.
Excelent and very instructive video, going to the sources, no doubt is the best way to know the true. Thank you for such good material!
Wow! Listen to the other comments! You have struck a nerve! Intelligent informed commentary backed up with visual simulation (and an excellent authentic German accent!) is just awesome! Keep it coming!
Great explanations, I did like using the game to demonstrate the attack. It remind me of the older history channel documentary.
These days the would discuss what aliens gave the Germans their technology...
History Channel circa 1998: "German Aces On The Western Front"
History Channel circa 2020: "German Aces Used Alien Technology"
@@moistmike4150 History Channel 2021: "The world ended in 2012 with the Mayan prophecy when Disney bought Star Wars"
If the entire fleet of Bf 110s weren't destroyed in their huge majority in the battle of Britain it would be a nightmare as a bomber hunter against the allied bombers.They could send both Bf 110 and Fw-190 variants towards the bombers where the Fw would deal with the escorting fighters and so the Bf 110 could literally wreck the bobmers by the dozens in each sortie.
Really happy to hear the FC.20 get some love, it's such a neat plane. :D
Excellent Chris
Excellent video, as per usual. Everything said about German tactics for attacking the daylight bomber streams, was pretty much how I imagined.
Its realy great to show a visual example of the topic, greit work Bis.
Thanks!
@Military Aviation History can you make a Video about MW50 and GM1? The insane of amount of knock protection they offer significantly turned the Tides in Engine development. You could easily get 20% more power out of an engine with the press of a button. The Technology was really simple and if implemented during the Battle of Britain ( again really simple and not really out of the box) it could have changed the war. The RAF had almost collapsed and was down to a few hundred planes. An extra 100-200 hp on a BF 109 could have changed everything. The War would be very different. With Total air superiority you could get Britain to collapse because you can constantly disrupt their ports, Railyards, shipping and the like.
Primary sources are always the most interesting :)
Long ago in the former century, I read A lot of veterans experiences. They often differ from the official propaganda stated by both Allies and Axis (As You explained this was to instruct, direct/manipulate the common pilot)
I remember reading A piece on the FW190 A8, specially customized to attack the daytime (USAAF) heavy bomber formations with their extra armed and armored fighters. This was A very difficult task since these pilots would fly into heavy machine gun fire if the bomber formation kept their formation and while concentrating on their target that they hoped to hit in A split second while being sitting ducks to the allied escort fighters from above and behind in their AC which where overweight for A dogfight.
Hence the line abreast frontal attack formation was A emergency tactic that was intended to break up the formation or individual bombers that would become ‘easy’ targets for the second attack, While being covered by specially equipped high altitude Me109’s (Painted light blue allover) jumping on the Allied escorts.
The FW190’s would roll over and dive under the bomber (split-S) after their short frontal fire burst and so protect the pilot by exposing the heavy armored belly of the 190 to the bombers gunners.
I read also an article on A individual ‘bomber killing’ Luftwaffe Ace who would individually attack the bomber frontally from above, with his ME109 equipped with cannon gondolas with which he was expertly talented to hit the cockpit, but this was out of the ordinary.
Also interesting are the statements by allied bomber crew who admired the bravery of these Luftwaffe pilots attacking their heavy bomber formations while even exposed by their own ‘Friendly’ FLAK fire!
(BTW The war thunder clips don’t do justice to these dangerous attacks with the few bomber stragglers who’s AI gunners who seem to forgotten how to unlock their gun safety’s!? and are the FLAK boys also in A heavy lock down maybe?;)
Love Your content!
Servus from Amsterdam....
Enjoy your channel. Especially appreciate your analysis and historical perspectives. It helps to put things in context. Just a suggestion...maybe a comparison or contrast to Japanese source documents in their respective response to the B-29 formation and raids. Keep up the wonderful work. Greatly appreciate your time and efforts.
This document was written in 1943. At that time, the B-17F was deployed in Europe. It's replacement was the B-17G, which had a nose turret with two 50 caliber guns. It is possible that this modification changed the Luftwaffe tactic to attack first from the front.
Very good presentation
AWESOME VIDEO ,THANKS .