Overdrive For Classic Cars and Muscle Cars Pro and Con Episode 180 Autorestomod
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- čas přidán 10. 09. 2014
- Should you Add Overdrive to your Classsic Car or Muscle Car
Vinnie and Jeff discuss the pros and cons of Overdrive for classic and muscle cars.
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Lots of racers running in the Hot Rod Magazine Drag Week are using Gear Vendor's over drives. They handle the torque/hp and can be bolted on to your existing tranny (auto or stick).
I have a friend with a 7.3 litre diesel with a gear vendor and he swears it gets 26 mpg on the hwy. I've never heard of one even getting 18 mpg from the factory
It's not just RPM, it's total revolutions per mile. Every time the engine turns, the pistons are wearing an imperceptible, but finite amount off the bores and rings. The bearings, cam and othere moving parts--including accessories--likewise. As long as the engine isn't lugging, fewer turns per mile equals less wear. The fuel savings are just the icing on the cake.
Jeff agrees. Jack.
No body has said it yet so I will. Good to see you back Vinnie (even if it's temporary)!!
Thanks for posting Jeff. Hope all is well over the pond
I have built 2 cars with O.D. trans and have found that both have benefited from them. the 1st is a 1950 Chevy with a built inline 235 6cyl( about 250 hp ) a world class T5 5 speed and 3.55 gear. it runs down the road at 2100 rpm at 70 mph and gets about 20 mpg. the 2nd is an s-10 with a 383 cid small block at about 400 hp a 700R4 and a 3.73 8.8 ford rear end. it also runs down the road at about 2100 rmp at 70 mph. the best advantage with the 700 r4 is the lockup converter. at hwy speeds it get the motor out the "droneing" rpm range (flowmaster40 mufflers) and the lower 1st gears gets this truck haul'in real quick. (p.s. the 50 Chevy has no mufflers and true duel exhaust all the way to the back and really barks ). I am a big believer in O.D. tran's not just from the rpm and fuel standings but for the all around good drivability of them. We had the 700R4 rebuilt with the "good stuff" and a 2500 stall converter for about 850.00 at a local shop and it is supposed to be good for about 900 hp. Lets face it, we are building these cars for "us" , to our preferences, not the next guys ideas. so to each his own. love the show and will look forward to the next one.
cardude59 700-R4 rebuild for a little less than $900 is great! Here in my local area, they want nearly $2,000 for a stock 700-R4 rebuild.
65 Mustang fastback fast EFI 4speed I don't remember what the rear gears are somewhere in the 300 ish I easily get 25 miles to gallon and I drive it every day
Thanks team! awesome information. keep up the good work!
Overdrive can be really handy in early cars that need another gear. I'm putting a ruckstell underdrive rear end on my 26 model T coupe for hill climbing. However, I'd love to put a warford overdrive transmission behind the T transmission too. Imo, having extra gears never hurts.
Great content, I like to hear a rational debate of the options. I have a 71 Mach1 with a 351C, c6 and a Gear venders that I am very happy with, great acceleration and good on the highway. I have a 71 F100 with a 351W, c6 and it also great for hauling. Both have 9 inch rears . It is easy to go overboard on mods but sometimes a little change will be just fine. You guys talked about stuff being bulletproof, the 9 inch doesn't get much love lately but it is known for being very durable and I have a couple in reserve just in case, new tech is not always better in a restomod.
AWESOME!!!! Thank you for this Video guys!
i have a suggestion for you guys: it would be sooo cool if you'd do a series like everything you need to know about cars. from a practical point of view. e.g explaining gear ratios etc. as far as i know there is nothing like that on youtube.
There is now, it's a channel called Donut Media. You're welcome.
You could always do what the old racers did. Pop a highway gear in a 9," drive your car however long on the highway and bring a racing gear 3rd member and swap them at the track. It's harder to do with a 12 bolt but swapping a 3rd member isn't much work especially after you get some practice.
I've done that. Nasty job at the track. REALLY hard to pick up chick's smelling of gear oil. Lol
Another thing to consider might be an Under/Overdrive unit from someone like Gear Vendors. It might not be the cheapest option, but it would save you from having to ditch your current transmission, and they make them for Everything from your stock sixties mustangs to 6second drag monsters!
Just a thought. Great work guys!
Gear Vendors is an option that we have considered. Cost on the O/D from them is around the price of a over drive transmission. The one advantage they may offer is less parasitic horsepower loss over an OD trans. But we haven't totally researched that. At some point we would like to install a Gear Vendors but that will have to wait for the right project.
Great content as always, been there done that on several projects and the conversion can be pricey.
Great discussion but... For comparison,I just drove my 05 Silverado crewcab 4x4 from Quitman GA to Joplin Missouri to pickup a 66 Caprice(tank). On the way running about 72, I was turning 2000 rpm. On the way back, pulling the car on a Uhaul trailer,2000 rpm. OD locked out I was running 55-60. Also used 2x the gas coming back. All this to show about a 28% reduction in mileage! For a driver, the math makes sense! Trailer queen? Not so much. My 2 cents.
Thanks for the show. I've got a 66 Mercury Comet with a 289 and C-4 Cruise-O-Matic that I daily drive when I'm not trying to upgrade it - which takes me a long time. I get 16 mpg with a throttle body and 273s - my goal is 20. I've been trying to find a shop that will do an AOD conversion, but the mechanics I know of that have done several here in Central California are all getting old and don't seem super motivated to do the job. Now that my transmission is leaking and slipping, I'm tempted to just take it to the old faithful transmission shop in town and get a rebuilt transmission installed or my transmission rebuilt.
Huh, fancy that, I had my eyes on a 65 Mercury Park Lane. Doesn't have brakes but the car runs fine according to the seller, under 50k miles. Been wondering how much of a difference to fuel economy an overdriven trans would make compared to stock.
Funny thing is I got a built up Pontiac 400 and I was debating on keeping the TH400 or going with a 700R4. I decided to keep the TH400 and just go with 3.42:1 gears in the rear end.
How is high way driving
Friend has a '60 Chevy Apache with the 235 Cu In inline 6. Granny gear 4-speed, with a 3.55 rear. He wants to take it from California to Tennessee, but at lower revs. Looked at all the transmission options...$$$. Decided to go with a 3.08 rear. The torquey Stovebolt can pull that gear in this light truck.
I really depends on how the car is going to be used and how much highway driving you plan to do. I'm running a th400 with 3.36 rear gears and at 3,000 rpms I'm @ 70mph but my car is 95% city car. I rarely go on the highway and if I do its usually not that long. So it would be a waste of $$$ for me to convert to a overdrive transmission.
Amen to that. I have an 86 442. 3:73 with 27" tall rear tires. 65mph is 3100 rpms. No big deal. Driven 125 miles to Norwalk, OH, Lansing...street strip. Been doing it for ages and the turbo 350 trans just keeps going and going. ONly broke it once in 25 years. 350 bucks to rebuild. OD not necessary. Anyone that worries about gas mileage on a hot rod that's drive maybee 2000-3000 miles a year needs to find a new, cheaper hobby., or buy a newer car .
wrotenwasp Amen to that bro👍
Another good video guys. I think instead if someone if really worried about fuel mileage then instead of spending all that money for a new transmission I think they should look into EFI. To many good EFI swaps out there these days and just about all of them are plug and play like the ones that you swap out you're carb for a throttle body EFI swap. But I agree alot with Vinnie but thats just me lol
We have plans for that. these will be done on a quarterly basis. Thanks for the kind words.
my motorcycle idles at 1500 rpm, running rpm is anywhere from 2000-15000rpm and it will do it all day, i think modern engines can pretty much run at any rpm (under redline), i have heard you should try not to sit at the same rpm 100% of the time but thats about it.
do you americans swap in old transmissions into cars? i know in australia some of the old holden and ford models had pretty rock solid transmissions so they are scarce now days?
I have never really heard of anyone doing that. But a lot of em will put gear vendors behind older transmissions to make it more streetable for the highway. And they are good for 2000 hp
If the car never sees a highway then an overdrive trans might not make sense. But anyone who drives their car on the regular then an od trans makes a lot of sense. Some issues are that with the 700r4 it’s a very wide ratio trans as is a ford aod, now a 200r4 is essentially a close ratio 700r4. With ford I don’t know if they have an auto equivalent of the 200r4. As far as manual transmissions go the T5’s are everywhere but they break easily the T56 is a great trans but even 26 year old units still go for $1000. And of course their are the aftermarket transmissions. Overdrive transmissions are great you just have to be prepared to pay.
Hey I have a 67 mustang coupe that is my daily driver. It has a 302 with a c4 automatic transmission. I was considering changing the c4 to a t5 manual transmission in hopes of getting better gas mileage (and because I just like driving the manual better haha), do you think it's worth it to do the swap ? Also how hard would it be to do the swap, since I'd be doing myself ?
We have plans to show a full swap using components from Modern Driveline (www.moderndriveline.com) in the near future. The best reason to do the swap is because you want a five-speed, mileage will be better with things like tuning and carb changes.
Okay thanks, really interested in seeing you guys do the swap.
I have a stock 350 with 4.11 in the back. Above 55 mph the engine is turning over 2500 rpm. Running the engine at those RPMs for lets say a 1 hour drive to the nearbye town is a lot of work. The interstate has a 70 mph limit that I'd be afraid to run for over an hour. I'm adding an overdrive because I retain the fun low end stop light to stop light with my 4.11 but save the engine on the long road trips. It's not about gas money as Vinny jokes, who cares about gas on these old cars?
Oh they eventually get to the longer engine life at like 11 min in. haha
For you that makes sense. And were we in your shoes we'd be doing the conversion.
I seen a ‘68 Charger do 2200rpm at 80mph with one of these on instagram... and he has a 727 torqueflite
EFI on a 454 makes an amazing improvement
nice, do more, it get this great minds a thinking.. also, did I hear you say more gm stuff?
maybe I should turn my 64 impala ss 4spd car over to ya...hmmm
LOL our record on "timely" restoration is not so good....With Larry's vast early GM knowledge we are going to go deeper into GM for sure.
OK guys, sorry I missed the first name of the mustache man, but any mechanic and mechanical engineer will tell you that rpm's kill engines. Now if you have a 454 ci motor, in any shape or format sitting in front of a 4.11 , or even a 3.73 ratio, you're not out to win mpg wars, your out for the E.T. wars or top sustainable speeds wars. No hotrodder, puts a M.O.D., OR AOD Trans in their hot rod for fuel economy or track time and speed improvement. They only put OD Trannys to help keep the engine from having to stay in the power band range of the engine and sort if destress, the engine a bit while traveling for an extended period of time. Just cause you have a Daytona engine, doesn't mean that it has to run at 6000rpm all the time. If you don't require 100% horsepower output 100% of the time, why not back off a bit and let the engine relax a little...
Mr. Mustache is Vinnie. All about "to each his own". We are planning an 4R70W for the 1969 Fairlane. The '64 hardtop Falcon will also receive a Modern Driveline five speed. So we are sold out for the over drive.
I built a 68 Camaro with a 305, 700r4 and a Ford 9 inch rear with highway gears from a Lincoln Versailles. I got 26mpg on the highway with that old car. 26mpg! Granted it was a 305 with a dual jet carb. Dual jet, not the older 2 jet.Good running car, wish I never sold it but I have a 67 nw with a 327 and planning to install a Gear Vendors
I'd look at the 770R4 for that application as well.
Helpful. Thanks 🤙
Thanks!
I have a 66 Stang with a 302 300 HP new crate engine. The C4 tranny is bad I’m not sure if I should rebuild the C4 or pay more cash to get an AOD. I’ll drive the car a little bit but definitely not an everyday driver. My concern is high RPM’s in 3rd gear with the C4. Also I have been told an AOD in a 66 Mustang there will be a few Mods....drive shaft, cross member etc...but after watching this helpful video I think I’ll just get this C4 rebuilt and no mods need to be done installing it back in, save money, since I’m not going to be driving a whole lot...thanks for this video!
Good idea!
if it were my chevelle, and the budget would allow it, i would keep the th 400 and add a gearvendors overdrive...the combination is much stronger than the 700 r 4 and doesn't require the throttle position sensor...
I don't know if you covered this.... but If you replace the turbo 350 to a 700 R4 you get a steeper first gear and better ratio spread so you do get better performance and better gas mileage. So yes bother performance wise and mileage wise its a good idea. 700 r4 ratios are
First - 3.059:1
Second - 1.625:1
Third - 1.000:1
Fourth - 0.696:1
Reverse - 2.294:1
I believe the Turbo 350 is
First Gear - 2.48:1
Second Gear - 1.48:1
Third Gear - 1.00:1
Reverse - 2.07:1
Good point. We also wondered if the 700 is less gluttonous on horsepower than the TH350. The Ford AOD is perhaps the worst of the Ford transmissions for sucking off horsepower. Lots of "inside" topics that we could discuss.
( typical) My 62 f100 came w 6 cyl/3 speed 3.73 rears, was changed to302/c4, ( keeping the 3.73 ) winds up tight at 60-65 @ 3-3300 ish rpm, so , these days now getting out with respectability is the thing , When someone asks , either an add on od , wich can be removed and makes them a convertible if you will ,or, a tko of course sounds like the answer , SAVE UP !
I thought the wear and tear would be more from heat (from the higher sustained rpms) than anything else.
Heat and rpm on accessories make for greater wear. Though Vinnie and Jeff disagree on this point, smaller (numeric) gears and lower rpms will effect engine wear (as will better oils, roller valvetrain etc) --to what degree is beyond our pea brains to figure out.
I agree; i'm sure metallurgy has changed too, but to what degree who knows.
Yes, A versus B is great to deal with the overstated claims and myths (and truths) about power train economy, wear, etc. Shoot in Italy with Italian supermodels and you have the best show on the net.
How about being able to drive on the highway at a decent speed without your engine screaming ?
It is a plus.
So have you ever driven non stop for 1300 miles in a car that has too steep a gear at 55-75 mph and a cherry bomb muffler
The migraine was awful
I have a 2000 SS w/t56 it drops 1500 rpm from 4th and 6th stock 3.42 gears
Ps
I lost 4 mpg when the Libertarded leaders in my state put 10% alcohol in the gas
How about a discussion on that
LOL.
What state you in?
Biofuels, ethanol and biodiesel donot have as many btus as crude oil based fuels. But we will save the planet with that junk.
More A vs B please.
Damn, dude. It isn't just about MPG's. It's also easier on your mind.
I have an old F350 that I am considering putting a Gear Vendor's overdrive in it. I will gain maybe 2 MPG and 500 RPM. Not a lot for the $3,300 overdrive cost. It's a tough decision.
EDIT: My truck is a 1989 F350 dually with the 7.3 IDI, C-6 transmission with 3.73 rear gear. It screams 3,000 RPM's at 70 MPH.
As a 2nd Gen Lifted Ram 2500 V10 owner the lower rpms and low end torque are definitely partially responsible for the great reliability of the engine so spinning that thing down the hwy at lets say 5000+ rpm would definitely hurt that engine so rpms definitely matter when it comes to wear and tear on your engine
my dream box would be a toploader with a 0.5 fifth gear , with 4,11s u'll be spinning aprox 3500rpm at 70mph in 4th but slide into 5th and it'll drop to around 2000rpm for cruzing . i hate spinning a big engine for long periods , use the torque :}
Yep. we know that Ford did a four speed overdrive based off of the toploader, but that, well it was almost as useless as the toploader three-speed. We have wondered if it didn't boil down to case issues. Perhaps we'll never know....
The way you pronounced "Italy", I was wondering if you actually meant Italy, Texas, south of Dallas. It's close to
Athens, but much further from Rhome.
I had a friend who pronounced both that way. Almost sounded like he was getting the heimlich maneuver. 🤣🤣🤣 crackled me up so much I picked it up.
Gear Vendor Overdrive turns my 4.11 to 3.19 on the highway. Pontiac 455 plus split shifting turbo 400
Nice!
Personal preference and budget, simple. I’d like a more livable drive, so 4 speed it is.
Have to agree with the economics analysis; to change for the sake of change doesn't give a good return on monetary or time investment. If the transmission needs to be replaced anyway, different matter. Noise reduction at highway speeds is another consideration.
Back when the semiautomatic overdrives were production options (up through the mid-1960s), one of the selling points was the reduction in engine wear and tear. It also gave de facto five forward gears; low and second were too close to make a difference with overdrive, but the drop between second and high made second gear overdrive usable, or so people who had it claimed. It was also claimed that one of the issues with that type of transmission was that it freewheeled below cut-in speed, then freewheeled again if disengaged above cut-in speed.
Agreed.
Dear team Auto resto mod thank you for this information ps where is Vinnie
Vinnie got busy with his day job and moved on, sadly it happends.
4L75E basically a 4L60E with ALL parts changed out . Very Very expensive conversion
lockup convertor $$$$ ,, Trans electronic control unit $$$$ ,, but fits a small tunnel
If u have a large tunnel 4L80E with mild modification can handle high hp 50--75% cost
Hi i have it ford van 1972 econoline 200 i nesd transmision C6 overdrive 4 speed
Gamers Bar.
And yes, we feel that newer engines are designed for better sustained use. Older transmissions are fairly plentiful here in the states.
you know what i would like to see is dare a say a two speed rear end. then you can get good mileage and not have to swap out gears if you go to the track. also i would like to know why places like N.P.D.are totally against Chrysler/Dodge. people always say no one wants to restore an old dodge truck but on the flip side it is very difficult because if you need parts you gotta find it in the junk yard
Yes more gm pleas and Ty
I bought a gear vendor for My 69 F250 390 C6 3:73 it was a big decision other than swapping my Dana 60 for a Ford 9 inch or Dana44
So 5 lug in rear small brakes etc i could had went with a 1980 ford 4 speed with a adapterplate after you add it up the cost is going to be the same as a gear vendor in the end.
With the gear vendor I keep the same transmission which is stuck to the truck and it will hold more value as far as fuel savings I did not buy it so much for that going down the freeway at 65 mph with a 373 rear axle 30-in tires I was turning this 2,800 to 3,000 RPM .
I had headers and glass packs on that truck and going down the freeway it was like you were Richard Petty in NASCAR it was so damn loud it got to the point to where all the joy of driving the truck was taken out of it because living in Los Angeles and all the traffic it really sucks to just drive it from stop light to stop light so the $3,000 that I paid for that gear vendor was worth every penny to me so instead of running at 65 mph at 3,000 RPM with 30 inch tires it will drop it down to about 2400 RPM at 65 now I can drive the distance on the freeway to take it to the mountains to take it down PCH to go to the route 66 and do all the things that I want to do with the truck and have fun with it instead of just going down the street stop light to stop light.
Really how much do the OEM spend on reducing NVH millions. Jeff you went to the trouble to put in crossover to reduce cabin noise. At lest as much because it was driving you crazy as to make it a better camera chase care.
They have a new gear set for Muncies that lowers 1st gear in all trans so can run lower rear gear like 3:08
Well if your gonna take summer trip driving over 500 miles one way. Just switch the 3rd member to a 2.75. keep your 4.11s in the trunk incase you need to smoke the tires on your inlaws driveway.
That is one way to skin a cat.
I’m finishing the install on my 68 Mustang, 289, C4, 3.0 rear. I just want to reduce RPMs and run at modern highway speed for travel to cruises and shows. This is the perfect solution for me. If fuel economy is an issue, you shouldn’t be running a classic.
True that!
Personally I would get rid of the auto and go 5 speed because they are lighter /cheaper easy to maintain and more fun to drive ,if you want good mileage you have to change the diff ratio to go with the gear ratio in your chosen box 4.11 are great for racing but bugger all else have fun
I'm putting a 302/aod in my 63 Meteor. The lower 1st gear and the high OD should blow the 2 speed away.
I have a 300 HP 302 in a '70 Maverick. 9 inch with 3.89 gears and a AOD. This is a good combo for every speed.
My corvette LS4 454 Th400 3.36/1 posi. = 3000 rpm at 70 mph sucking 9 mph it sucks
You meant 9 MPG. Yes that sucks. But around town it is managable.
Bolt a Gear Vendors overdrive to it and you won't have to contend the the R4 TV cable.
Review the performance specs, tire diameter and gear ratio on the Corvette / Camaro. You don't need 4:10's to have fun
Gear Vendors is $2800 and you need a to shorten the drive shaft. It's a good option if you have deep pockets
I have a 72 Olds 455 Rocket with a TH400 running a 3.73 gear. If I can get around 2400 rpm at 70 mph I'm interested.
I liked the VS thing great idea. great implementation!!!
My 2 cents are that its about vehicle purpose. I think that the 5 speed auto adds comfort to the ride where any standards add thrill. The question is what is the build for? Sport?
Standard. Cruising? Auto..... Everything else is conjecture and anecdotal.
one word t56
Somebody told me a thing 350 can't have an over drive in is impossible
Th350 I mean
the 700R4 is the GM overdrive you want to look at.
It's just less abuse on that expensive engine
Yak yak yak.
You sure do post a lot for a guy complaining about talking. LOL
IMO - Putting an overdrive (and/or a nice stereo) in a classic muscle car defeats the purpose of the classic car experience. If you want the comfort of a new car but with the grunt of a classic, then just buy a new generation Mustang, Camaro or Challenger. But, hey... I'm a purist. ( My `68 Torino restoration: www.mechanknuckle.com )
Jeff here: I can see both sides of the coin. I LOVE the Camaro we are working on for the next video. I HATE to drive it. 4.11:1 gears and a four-speed with Flowmasters do not make for a happy Jeff. A five speed would give the owner all the go and that extra gear to make the car more livable. Our wagon will get an AOD since I will be driving this more than not to places like Byron and on car-to-car shoots where a wailing Cleveland would not do the video any favors. However, my '72 Mach 1 has a four-speed and 3.50:1 Traction-Loc. Not changing it since the car is pretty dead nuts stock outside.
Please stop giggle and answer the question
Bald dude needs to just up and let him talk instead of changing the subject.
To much bs
Never know, folks might say the same about you!
Bald dude got it wrong. He keeps equating the cost of transmission change to fuel savings. No a project is a project. If we were as cheap as he is, we would not start the project in the first place.
Well, that's just like, your opinion man.
God it's like listening to a couple of schoolgirls! It's not about dollars per mile, otherwise you wouldn't have built a big block hot rod in the face place. It's just the cool factor of having modern technology in an old steel. And now that the rodders are getting older and driving long distances with the wife, It's about comfort too.
Man, why you gotta be a dick in the first sentence? I would have paid better attention to your points. As it is I didn't even read them. Why bother? You call me a schoolgirl right out of the gate, everything else is probably just as bad.
@@AutoRestoMod Actually the way you responded to him you are the actual Dick
the guy with the hair loss is an absolute non factor with the common sense use of the overdrive usage.
I know you won't read this, but why address the video the way you did? Better to say I don't agree with their estimation? Plus your sentance should be structured this way: the exceptionally good looking guy with a receeding hair line doesn't know what he is talking about.
What's with all the BS, just get to what the show is about.
We wanted to do a "show" people like you want no BS. We now banter less. Live and learn.
Too much bs. Lost interest before you ever got to the point.
Ok, thanks for watching.
Fuck overdrive.
Wow...that's harsh...
That whole show was a waste of time.
To quote a great man, "well that's like your opinion man."
8 minutes into the video and I'm still wondering when these clowns are gonna get serious about the topic. Can't watch any more.
Bye. please don't muss my door with your ass.