The Impact of Bow Tuning: Arrow Spine Experiment
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- čas přidán 27. 06. 2024
- Join me in this archery experiment where I put bow tuning to the test. In this video, I shoot two sets of completely different spined arrows and plot the results to uncover the true difference that tuning your bow can make. How much better do properly spined arrows group? I provide the answers and insights you need to understand the importance of a well-tuned setup.
Reflecting on the results, I realize the significance of having a perfectly aligned bow, optimal tiller, optimized brace height, tuned nocking point, proper plunger tension, high quality fletchings, and a properly sized string. Each element plays a crucial role in your archery performance and I believe that a great setup can result in great results with less that ideal arrow spine.
Learn how to tune your bow like I do with Tuning for Performance: jakekaminski.com/store/ols/pr...
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Or Lancaster Archery Supply: collabs.shop/ovq0jm
Chapters:
00:00-00:53 Intro
00:53-5:14 Tuning
5:14-7:35 The Test
7:35-28:02 70 Meter Testing
28:02-33:51 The Results
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This is one thing im not too sure what is going on. My bow as a "learner" is a 20 English pound piece of ..........., but its got me to learn form, or should i really say youve got me to really learn form. Just something about you and how you explain things, and even threw a phone looking at your eyes you are a very compationate patient man. For what ive learned these past 3 odd months bing watching everything youve done on form, i just want to give you a massive thankyou and a massive hug 😂, youre the best Jake, ill never meet you, but know youve helped a 52 year old becoming a very good archer, just a shame that competitive recurve bows are so expensive, but hay, im not one to give up on my dreams. Thankyou jake, now to learn what arrows do lol. I have Huntington arrows and there not bad, but ive got no clue if they are even the right length for me. I hopefully start my course in September, ill properly learn about that there. Any way this was just to write thankyou. Youve been a huge mentor to me, and one day ill win a medal, one day i may even do Olympics, if so and if by chance i get a gold award then im publicly owing it all to you..💙
new content from Jake
This video is just what i needed! Thank you for all the great content
A couple of people have asked me why I'm bothering to tune my arrows, and this video does slightly support their argument that if they're hitting where you're aiming when fletched, why bother? But my argument back is that A: I like tinkering with stuff like this, and B: if you can do everything possible to help the arrow along the way, why not? It's not particularly onerous, and it's certainly not going to hurt!
Thanks for the multiple camera angles on your shooting. And congrats on some excellent groups!
Sorry im writing alot lol. But Jake my admiration for you is emotional. Doing this not only for you, but to teach us. Youre just an amazing human. 🫂🫂🫂
I noticed at second to last shot a slight wobble in you're pulling arm. But that heat, what 70 arrows? I try do 100 each practice but our weather is more forgiving. But well done, still not sure 100% what this means but it was very interesting. Thankyou Jake edit please don't think i mean when i wrote 100 that i mean you should do more. I've just learned that every practice you should put atleast 100 arrows in or there about, depending on how fatigued i get.
Thank you very much for making this experiment. I meant to do it myself but now that you’ve done it. I appreciate you sharing it.
Tremendous video, I needed a video like this since I changed the spine of my arrows and I wanted some information about the tuning.
Hello Jake,new to the sport and your videos are very appre iated.thank you for the work and explictions..
you are a great archer!!
As a person returning to archery as an adult, I really appreciate these videos. Watching this experiment made the engineer in my very happy. Have you considered using a tool like Ballistic-X to measure arrow impacts? That app is aimed more at firearms, but it would be just the thing for collecting the data AND performing the group size analysis. It would also let you track the order of the arrow impacts, which you could use to help filter out some of the environmental and fatigue effects that naturally crept in as you performed the experiment.
انت مبدع كعادتك
Great content. Again! And couldn't be better timed: I've been shooting with stiff tune (dropped a few pounds due to shoulder-knack, not prepared to shell out on new arrows, just put heavier points in ). The difference down range has been pretty undetectable to me (although can definitely see the arrows flying less well), but then my groups generally are as inconsistent as ever ... well... nuff said. Many thanks.
Nice Video
I'm in the process of deciding on my next set of arrows so this is useful for me! Also, shoutout to the first gen Audi TT chilling out there
Hi Jake, it was interesting to see the difference going up or down a spine had on the impact point. I thought it would be much greater. Great video - though I would like some of that sunny heat over here in the rain-sodden UK!
I suppose the vertical difference is due to the higher weight of the stiffer shafts. Though the difference is still bigger than I expected.
Thats a great angle watching youre form from behind, i can see a slight adjustment i need to do. T shirt color really helped to lol
I’m thinking your experiment is a testament to your Wav Pro vanes doing a great job of straightening not-perfectly-tuned arrows!
👍
Ty for the vid it help me a lot, especially when you change the camera in diff. Angle its much more easier to understand the posture,head position and achor in this vid😅 just for me though✌️😅❤️❤️
Time to fill some tags!
Adding these after I've finished the video.
1. That pattern between the stiffer and weaker arrow is exactly what I see when trying to plunger tune my arrows. Without changing the nock height, my bareshaft lands low right when the plunger tension is set stiff and top right when weak.
2. It would take some time but would also be interesting to see the spread pattern when you tune the bow and plunger to the arrow.
3. A temporary solution to sound dampening your studio would be by using those thick paper egg crates or fluffy carpeting on your walls.
One experiment I’ve done, foil.
Sun shade = aluminium foil. It reflect more of the photons before being converted to heat. Black will work fine, it will collect photons and convert it to IR heat, still radiating it to camera body.
Not a bad idea
I was just dealing with this, between 450s and 410s too lol. Noticed that 410s grouped better however, way less forgiving while 450s were more balanced in terms of overall performance
Always great Jake thanks. Just out of curiosity how consistent from arrow to arrow was the spine in each group. I shoot cheaper arrows and there is sometimes a 20 point difference between some arrows, tho most are within a few points of each other.
Great video as always. I wonder if it would have been worthwhile to include a set of weaker arrows as well. Now you've tested stiff (410) against tuned (450) if I'm correct. I wonder if there would have been a 'significant' difference with weaker arrows (500~). Came to mind after remebering what either Steve Wijler of Sjef van den Berg said that when spine tuning a little bit of a weaker arrow will be more forgiving than a bit of a stiffer arrow.
As I experienced, un-tuned arrows (of course not very out of spine) are less forgiving. Weak arrows could group well, but if you make a wrong release they punishes hard. While stiff arrows cannot make good grouping even with good release.
Awesome video! May I recommend a video or series for people getting into Olympic recurve that need side bars, stabilizers, v-bar adapter, sight tab, etc. But on a budget. Where is the money best spent??? Thanks!
Thanks
Wow!!!! That distance yet you're hitting the middle, jeez no wonder your an Olympic champion, one day Jake, one Day. And i doubt but one day i really want to meet you, you're an amazing archer.
Thanks for the super thanks!
Hi Jake.. Fantastic analysis and video ONCE again! Well done and thank you for your explanations and effort making these videos.
I have been shooting recurve for 6 months now and has ti start at 20/20 at our club..internal league..so you need to start at 20/20 as a beginner.. Shoot 12 rounds at 20m and try and score above 550. If you do..the next legue shooting you shoot 6 rounds at 30 meters and the second 6 rounds at 20 meters.. Then again you need to shoot above 550 for the round to move up to 30/30.. And so it continues.. Im now on 40/40 since Jan. And i tried to just see is my bow weight is ok for me to get to at least 60/60 by December this year. Im shooting 32 pounds. If i want to go up with draw weight..do I have to align my bow again with the beiter blocks..or do the limbs keep straight? Sorry it might be a dumb question but i dont want to mess around with my setup too much right now since its working..but would like to not have to aim as high because of the draw weight..if i make sense😁
Thanks Carl
South Africa 🍻
The heat is the reason I've done zero outdoor in Florida this summer.
yes, it's important and it takes time !
to find the arrow in balance with my new kinetic foam limbs i tried (for my future indoor set)
skylon radius 700 with 30" (6,2 gpi) arrow, 90 gr tips and 80gr tips i use till 50 meters outboor
cross X iridium 700 (not really, more 750) with 31" (5,9 gpi) 80 gr tips
the solution for a comfortable position and a nice flight is a mix of both :skylon radius 750, cut at 30.5" (5,9 gpi) and 80gr tips
to accelerate the stabilisation i choosed to install AAE ep 26 vanes !
Why not go for a 3D type of setup indoors ? But drawback is you rather want two bows. One for indoor and one outdoor. Indoor you can go with fat Ultralight arrows shafts like sub 5.0 gpi. Cross-X Fulmen, Skylon Edge. Its really fun shooting +200 fps.
Don’t know about how to keep cameras running in high heat but the suggestion would be to start early AM as soon as there is good lighting. Maybe life doesn’t allow this, but I bet it would solve the problem.
It's your spine for your weight. It'd be nice to have a list based on dw-not a chart of estimates. I'm pulling 35-36lbs and shooting 600 spine warrior. I BE'd- bullseyed- my last arrow of the day arrow 250 and was very happy.
What is your draw weight on that bow? Thats quite a few shots so curious to how much you are pulling. Nice work.
great video, I was wondering if you have any usefull tips for staying in archery shape when going on a long holiday and not being able to really practice?
Resistance bands are your best bet. Don't take up much room and you can "shoot" them to keep up form and not lose muscle.
Please review the “JUNXING TBOW H7” thank you
Move to Minnesota!
Jake, what jig are you using to get 8 degree helical with your wav pros? I have a last chance vmp, and I believe I get only 5 at most
Hi, Jake could you make a video about producing a bowstring ? Thank you !
Life’s too short. You’ll never make one as good as the experts and the best string you could ever buy (spec and quality of manufacture), will be one of the cheapest components for your bow. Check out Reign bowstrings in the UK, they’re excellent.
Jake, of your camera is a smartphone i have the same problem when video conferencing. I think that the main culprit is the screen being always on. If there is a way to record with the screen off I truly believe the phone will not over heat. Same may go for slrs cameras with big screen. A simple solution could be a wringed sports towel on top so the humidity of the cloth acts as a heat sink. Not wet, but damp enough... you get the idea. Great content and most useful. Thanks
The phone down range is my iPhone and the phone I stand by is a Sony ZV-1
@@JakeKaminskiArchery in that case achieving a way to keep the screen off would save battery and reduce heat.. I use android, do not have iphone but can investigate, I have homework :-)
What were you doing at 7:12? Were you putting something on your hands or tab?
Hi Jake I’m planning to buy a riser and limbs… since you’ve tried most of the high quality ones regardless the price which riser and limbs would you recommend? Aside from the formula… I was actually choosing between meta dx and atf dx for the riser and axia for the limbs… but if you would suggest other units it would be much of a help… thank you
May I ask what that white pouch is, with which you tap your fingers before putting on your fingertab? Is that some magnesium, maybe?
410 to 450 are very small spine increment. But its good to show the difference. You would have gotten a much bigger difference going to a (softer) 500 spine. Generally its always preferred to go a "bit" stiffer then softer. And your video actually does some proof to that old statement. So that's why the numbers on the score isn't so obvious. But also you can get some false readings when running too stiff arrows touching or hitting parts of your bow on the way out. So there is really no really good way to cut corners when it comes to tuning your recurve bow :D
Put the camera in some container where ICE is on three sides/the top and won't interfere with video. When my cell gets hot, I pop it in the cooler or freezer briefly.
Arrow tune when shooting with fingers is supposed to let the arrows clear the riser better via archer's paradox. Yours are not very far off or you couldn't shoot a bare shaft at 30M but the bare shaft did impact pretty far off to the side. If the untuned arrows aren't clearing the riser/rest as well and thus not flying as well I would expect there to be more horizontal dispersion in the group and the vertical dispersion wouldn't be affected as much. The untuned arrows were definitely impacting farther to the side but lateral dispersion seemed to be very close. Overrall it is an interesting comparison to see and there are other comparisons that you could do.
If on 410x arrows you replace the pinnocks with simple ones (lighten the tail of the arrows), then they will become 1.lighter and 2.softer - than they will approach a group of correctly adapted arrows))))
it would be great if you, Jake, made a video on how to make barebow arrows for field and for 3d, how they differ (or should differ), how to achieve a 50m point to point range for field (what are the restrictions on the minimum mass of an arrow )? I hit 45m arrows 5.3g/lb minimum safe length, poundage bow 48lbs on my draw....i can't imagine how others can shoot 50+ yards point to point :( I live in Russia so I can't buy yours book sorry :(
Maybe get a little USB chargeable fan thet you can pop next to the camera there squire. It'll help in tandem with the shroud quite nicely methinks 😁
Oh and did you ever hear if Sanlida fixed the limb bokt issues on the miracle kit? Im getting some cash in a month and that'll be my Olympic swtup to start ( with a few tweaks heh heh)
Thanks for this one though. Its always hugely intriguing what difference in setups can do. Oh and one of our 3d ranges has whole herds of african antelope running through. Its utterly fantastic
eyyy great idea, a small computer fan with a battery bank can surely help, it is just a matter of soldering a usb plug to the fan
@@octaviogarcia5457 that'll work beautifully too mate! Maybe just get a wind protector for the mic if not already there and it should be fairly silent as well
Very good, for a week I can not see your videos with subtitles in Spanish, does anyone know what happens. Thank you very much and greetings.
What v-bar are you using? Just curious
So unless you're competing at the highest level, a slightly out of tune bow shouldn't be a big problem? In my case i'm more of an intermediate archer and i do not compete (yet). Should i focus more on my form instead of the equipment setting?
Great video as always😎🤜🤛
form > equipment definitely IMO, but if your bow is like, WAY out of tune, it could feel kinda ass to shoot and affect your form
👍👍👍
Not associated with this video but, ... I was wondering if you could address shooting split finger and "shooting the gap" as opposed to three under and string walking? Pros and cons? I just don't feel comfortable shooting three under and string walking.
Chronos cam: I’m looking to buy the same cam. You might want to research this: I found info (claiming, I need to verify when I’m ready to buy) buying the base camera, you can add more (laptop computer) ram to convert it to the higher end version. If true, it may save you a a few dollars.
Old 16mm c mount lens are nice. You can adopt cheap Nikon F mount lens to it and save a ton of cash
Thanks for the tips
One last comment. Im in uk, and very much on a budget but want a bow that i could compete with...eventually. i use recurve bow, is there any trusted online shop i could maybe get a riser first, with limbs then just get sights etc when i can, or what brand would you suggest does the best bows but not greatly expensive but could be used in competitive archery? Thankyou.
I guess my takeaway is that form is going to gain you far more points than tuning. If the bow is set up correctly and the tune is close, then form is where the time should be placed. At least outdoors where there are environment conditions contribute more variability.
What is with the Audi?
What is your limbs for lbs? Pretty fast.
Jake, order a 20.00 amazon rechargeable stroller fan. Attach it to your scope and enjoy the breeze.
So why are the arrows with a higher spine to the right of the ones with a lower spine? If untuned was 450 and I would want to fix the issue of the right-offset, I would conclude the arrows are too weak and I need to increase the spine? And visa versa: If untuned was 410 and I would want to fix the issue of the left-offset, I would conclude the arrows are too stiff and I need to decrease the spine?
what's the problem with the audi. (16:00-)
Yeah.. I was shooting 700s on a 30lb training bow.. Too stiff but I could group not to bad.. Eventually went to 800s and noticed absolutely no change.. All I know is.. The reason I cant group for shit is definately on me.. Some days im locked in, some days im rubbish.. Im just inconsiestent and no arrow is fixing that... Ive decided to stop messing with the bow and leave it well enough alone.. If I really am on form, ill smack a few 9s 10s.. That tells me right there that the bow can and will do that every time, without me screwing with it..
Jake, what are you using to dry your hand/tab in this video?
Rosin Powder, it's used for baseball.
Thankyou
What is happened with AUDI?
I had the same problem when recording with my GoPro 10. It overheats fast. I found out that a silicon case (the ones that can be bought in the official online store) decreases the temperature of the camera really well when exposed directly to the sun. At least here in Madrid, where in summer we reach 40°C easily with low humidity. Also, if you are using a GoPro or any of these action cameras consider switching to other brand. These are made up so that the wind that creates when you move with the camera (skiing, cycling, riding with a motorbike etc) cools the whole system. That's why they all overheat so frequently
Im using a Sony ZV-1 right now.
I have an older Sony (NEX5) that overheats easily. I’ve found that moving the back screen away from the body helps a lot.
So try flipping your screen out (if you haven’t already). Probably won’t do much in the Florida heat, but worth a try.
Fuji digital cameras “solve” the heat by having a fan adopter on the back. If you have a Lav mic, the fan sound shouldn’t be an issue.
I thought of sticking cam in the fridge or in front of AC vent before going out. No. Cold cam lens + humidity = foggy lens from condensation.
My current idea: buy 3 or 4 cheap action cams (under $30 each, buy over time) and rotate them during over heat (action cam 720 quality is all I need, no 4k, HDI, Avatar quality)
720 won't cut it in todays world for most people. Bare minimum is 1080p 60 fps.
As far as the mic, I hate lav mics, will all my arm movements and demonstrations I hit the mic all the time and the sound quality suffers massively. I plan to just shut the camera off between ends now, just adds a little work to re-sync every time.
Why is it safer to shoot arrows that are stiffer, than ones that are weaker?
Too weak could not be absorbing enough energy from the bow, leading to excessive strain on both the bow (excess energy) and arrow (excessive forces/bending)
@@JakeKaminskiArchery oh ok, could explain why my old ACCs are cracking. I thought it was fine to still use them indoors, but they are ~200 spine low.
Can you not use a fan near the camera, obviously the question is then noise factors. Or even get a water proof bag, put ice in it and put in one the part of the cam the heat would effect. Edit maybe not ice, but near that temperature if that makes sense. Even if you put an ice bag near the cam close as possible the cold should dissipate near the cam.
I'll bet those deer were very thankful you're not a hunter.
Ok can i ask, when i shoot my arrows always hit the target on an angle, not all but most, and always to the left, yes my bow is a cheap piece of...and its one of those "cant be tuned" bows, so even i know the limbs arnt right, but still its a bow, and a man should never make the excuse that its the tools thats wrong, imo. But what could be the reasons for arrows hitting a target yet on an angle?
Depends. Lefty or right hand ? 45 degree impact shaft right hand archer its a very (overspined) stiff arrow (arrows land left of your aiming (45 degree angle) . And also can be an issue where the arrow shaft/vanes is in contact with the riser. Riser contact can give alot of false readings. So make sure that is not an issue first. Just run a simple paper tune to see how bad your arrow flight out of your bow is. It should be bullet holes at 6-10 feet. Look up paper tune on YT. Plenty of videos, mostly compound but it doesn't matter now.
@@mathiashammar1
I've worked out why. Arrows to weak, and maybe more grain at front. Getting my coaching soon so I'll show her. But thanks for the info mate. Appreciated.
Brp LBS
Ice bucket underneath ?
Flexible soft lunch cooler..camera inside peeking out..
Jake? Is it true that the crocodiles say hello by actually saying "Hello dinner"?
Jake, between ends,put a damp towel over your camera, and for the down range camera put the towel over the camera leaving just the lens exposed?
Jake, can I point out the one thing that I think you are doing that isn't exactly right, is that you are not doing your experiment under tournament conditions, ie. three arrows per end!
I firmly believe that doing it this way woulg greatly improve the oxygen absortion by your muscles, and reduce the fatigue element?,!
Thermocell
Jake, the translations into languages other than English...are not working.
It takes time for CZcams to do that.
I haven’t found the time to run translations on my own yet. One man band here! I need to create a workflow on that but haven’t had time or the know how yet to let AI handle it.
a good video would be be “how to breath while shooting”.
wth is an abandoned audi TT doing there? xD
A Hotrod project of mine... Just not running well and no time to work on it at present.
2.8l 12v VR6 swap, big turbo, 4-500hp, quattro.... Fun!
@@JakeKaminskiArchery love my Audi !
id probably die in florida ngl
Your joke about stopping after 8 shots is in science what we call a "stopping condition". It's very important to define in advance the criteria for ending the data collection.
bro where is your broadheads 🤣