Coping Vs Chopping the Waste on Dovetails Which is Better
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- čas přidán 29. 03. 2023
- Which is quicker? Chopping the waste or using a coping saw to remove most of the waste? When making dovetails, this is always a great debate. But which is really faster?
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In my workshop I have a sign put up in old German Fraktur font: "Eile in diesem Werkstatt is nicht gestattet" (It is not allowed to hurry in this workshop) So I frowned when you asked the question "Which is faster". Woodworking is not about speed. So it was heart warming to hear you saying "The chisel gives me more fun". Because that is what it is about IMHO. Oh and I chisel my dovetails as well and my coping saw skills are marginal.
You referred to the processes as “sport.” I like that description!
The key I found to use a coping saw is to use a skip tooth blade. A regular tooth blade doesn't clear saw dust as well.
I was taught as an apprentice both methods at college, then I was paired with an old joiner who used the coping saw method with a difference. He said that coping saw blades were thicker, rougher and more unwieldy than his dovetail saw so he cut the angles then cut between them and used the middle cut to start the coping saw to cut out the waste leaving less than a sixteenth of an inch to pare to the line. The result is a very clean bottom to the joint with no voids from tear out and no need to use a mallet. Chisels retain their edge longer too.
I work in a flat with neighbors so what ever makes less noise is the method of choice. I use a copingsaw as close to the line as possible and then pair the rest with a chisel.
You nailed it when you said that the more important thing is to enjoy the process, which is exactly what I am looking at right now. Things may change once I develop my skill and get into the business of selling a few stuff as well😉I too love working with chisel even though it takes a very long time for me...almost 2-3 days for a box or a drawer🙃 ...but I love that feeling. I have a bahco coping saw which I plan to use some day but haven't used yet...but definitely some day!
Hello, Mr. Wright;
A few months ago I wrote you about my problems w/ a Stanley block plane (12-960).
Then I got sick & set it aside, for a while.
I had an idea that it was the sole so by & by I worked on it.
Today I took a file to it.
I'd been working on it by flattening it on a concrete (cinder) block.
Works great (smooth as 120-150 wet& dry), lasts nearly forever, (just brush it off by & by), & since I already had it it cost nothing.
I keep checking w/ a straight edge, til it was 'flat', that solved the issue.
BTW, I've found that a flat smooth piece of wood (plane it) makes a great strop.
I'm a convert to Rob Cosman's fret saw approach. Since you leave the workpiece in the vise after cutting the kerfs and then immediately saw out the waste you only move the board from vise to bench once for the pin board. (Twice for the tail board since you need to transfer the dimensions before cutting out the waste.) Also, the bent skip tooth blade Rob uses in his fret saw allows you to remove the waste in less than 30 seconds per tail/pin.
OK, fine, I"ll try it. After I make my turning saw. I learned the chisel method from watching you!
Just bought a turning saw half the size of yours at an antique show in NC. With a fine blade that should do it. Great videos, excellent instructions.
I enjoy using a 9TPI fret saw blade in a jeweller's saw to remove the bulk and then clean out with chisel.
You asked for comments and ideas. Idea. Have you tried hand cutting finger joints using the saw kerf offset method to cut both joining piece at the same time. Just like Rob Cosman does for dovetales, but for finger joints. Allows variable sizes, quick and hand done.
Giving appropriate weight to the enjoyment factor is one of the things that sets you apart. I really enjoy chisel work but now that I'm retired, I'm thinking of making my own turning saw.
Thanks!
It's all about getting into the shop and having some fun.
i do make some things for money and actually find that my default approach is to do things with a chisel, i think its just part of my thinking process to do certain parts with hand tools.
I made some windows recently and i did the first one entirely with hand tools because i was taking it slow and thinking about the setout and the joinery. After the first one though where i understood what i was doing i moved onto power tools for most of it.
I like the sharp stabby thing for dovetails at least, mostly because I am not very good with a coping saw. Bashing things with a mallet is fun too. LOL. Yes I mean wood! LOL.
You can also use a good fret saw it has a much thinner blade and will easily fit down the dovetail slot
I really enjoy chiseling out but I haven’t tried a big turning saw,I used a small copping saw but preferred the chisel especially since my mrs bought me a set of Narex Richter chisels.Thanks for your chisel compare video 😊
Enjoy the ride!
I’ve been following you for a good amount of time now (a little over a year, I think), and I really appreciate your frequent reminders that there’s no right way and that it doesn’t matter if it’s perfect as long as it’s fun. Thanks again, James!
Once I learned how to get a really sharp chisel using them has gotten a lot more fun. I don't cut dovetails very often but using sharp tools (planes, drill bits, and saws included) does make shop time a LOT more fun.
I’m chisel team all the way. Maybe because it was how I first learned how to cut dovetails, but I can see a lot of ways to mess up a piece with a single unfortunate swing of the saw, and actually did mess up more times than I’d like to admit. And cmon, chopping those pieces all the way is way more fun 😆 Keep up the nice work James!
Excellent testing, James! Thanks! 😃
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
And yes, I too have a set of Narex Richter chisels that I bought last year that I absolutely love and I am pretty sure I was also influenced by one of your reviews and seeing you use it too! Never got to thank you James for that. Better late than never 🙂
first day in the shop this spring so i'm avoid sharpening like the plague, putting dull ones aside until it's a real unavoidable chore so using the coping saw for coping. once i finish grinding day and the chisels are tuned again it's definitely more fun with them.
Add in the sharpening time for your chisels vs replacing a blade
Sharpening would be much faster.
I think the chisel method makes using the assembly line type method a lot easier.
I think the turning saw will take much more time for me. First get on the internet, then ordering, then waiting for it to arrive. Practice Practice Practice then doing. Just sticking to a chisel me...😂
Chisel for me. Far more satisfying. Did try coping saw once but resulted in artisan firewood 🤣🤣
Congrats on 100k!
Nice summary. For someone who prefers chopping you sure gave a few advantages to the saw, larger pins will just go quicker with a saw every time, also that nice long blade helps too. Personally, I gravitate towards sawing out the waste, although I picked that up after a year or so doing the dovetails the old fashioned way. A good saw might be a factor in decision making too, I have a stantard cheap one that I use for cutting curves, and one with extra thin blades the fit into a kerf done by a japanese saw with better tension. Makes a world of difference
Just getting started cutting dovetails, right now I’m using the chisel to chop out the waste. Think I’ll give the coping saw a try and see what the results are, can’t get any worse. 😢
When you are using crappy stringy wood - like me, I had to use the saw. The wood was too soft for sharp chisels or even a sharp knife.This wood on the video is awesome. Wish I had that...
Thanks for the video, a nice comparison. I woodwork in my apartment, so I use the saw to help minimise how much loud banging happens. I think I prefer all chisel, but my neighbours don’t
Thanks for sharing.
Very Nice Video!!!
For saw it's definitely a skill thing at for beginners. 1. Breaking blades is very off-putting 2. Line creep is scary. For chiselling it can sometimes be slow because you can get too precious with waste removal AND working to your line. Whack out waste then clean up the shoulder is best for me.
I just end up using the chisel, chopping and splitting first butI do tell myself I'll use a coping saw...next time.
That said, I've not done 16 pins on 1 board so not really encountered that time issue when the saw would kill it.
Good video man 👍 for me it depends on the thickness of the material. If it's 3/4" or above, it's the coping saw, if it's around 1/2", I think it's more efficient with a chisel.
Both my chisels and coping saw are cheap ones. I had already made up my mind to sell my chisels at an upcoming garage sale and get some nice richters. Maybe I should do the same with the coping saw as well.
Great video.
My downstairs neighbours say they prefer the fretsaw. So I guess I'll cope without using the chisel where possible.
No need to hammer the point home.
Good stuff!
Cope out the waste. After lots of DT'S I've gotten good with my fret saw. So I go right to my line with my saw. Which only needs pairing to clean up. For me it's definitely the most efficient way as the piece stays in the vise. I've tried the "stacked" method of chopping the waste out, but it's still slower than individually coping and clean up in the vise. But on odd days I still chop out the waste just for good measure.
I am thinking a brace and bit would be the quickest for the bulk removal… 😮
If you do your woodwork in an apartment like me, the coping saw is also easier on the neighbours!
Right On!
Before I had a fret saw, I had to use chisels. I’m ambivalent about either.
thanks
The presentation is great but I wonder why Americans so much prefer the insanely small pin-to-tail ratio. European dovetails tend to have them optically more or less the same size. But that is off-topic of course, I really like your video.
The small pin came about because it makes it easier to differentiate between hand cut and machine cut. If you make it small enough that a router could never get in there it's easy to prove that it was hand cut.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo Ah, thanks for the explanation.
Right now I lean towards the coping saw to remove the waste. I've done both and found chopping out the waste just seemed to fight me the whole time. I'll try it again once I get better than a Big-Orange quality 1/2" chisel however as I get the feeling that may have been the limiting point for me.
A fret saw that is smaller than the saw kerf makes things very pleasant.
I used to have a fret saw blade in my coping saw. I found it to go considerably slower and be far less fun. But to use their own. Everyone has something different they like.
I let the wood tell me which method to use. Both work. A turning saw is definitely easier than a coping saw.
Nah, I couldn't cope - I saw it coming...so I just butted it and made a bee line out of there.
Go slow to go fast!!! Also, I would rather take all the time in the world, I love being in my shop
Team saw
I still enjoy the chisel better. Just what I like.
There is no right way, but an efficient way and it is using the saw, coping saw blades are inexpensive vs the time you spend sharpening the chisels. More life for chisels and sharpening stones, plus time. 🙂
I only have a coping saw, not a turning saw and next to no skill yet. So far, I definitely prefer the chisels. I find the coping saw a lot more fiddly.
I prefer chopping with a chisel. I need coping skills.
👍
All I can say James is you seem to have a very sharp bit there friend
I like the chisel better
What about drilling out the waste with a bit and brace?
You would think that would be slower but it actually ends up being considerably faster. I thought about including that one as well but I didn't have two more sections to remove.
I had to read the title 3 times and realized I missed "h" in first 2 times.
I made a coping saw using the kit from taytools. I found using it for dovetails kind of janky. I want to make a turning saw but where can I find turning saw blades?
Www.Toolsforworkingwood.com they have a turning saw kit
A few questions, James. Why do you call it a turning saw rather than a bow saw? Is there a difference? What about the blade? Would you describe the one you use, along with where you got it? Do you twist it so that part of it, the front part for instance, cuts vertically while the other (rear?) part cuts horizontally, like the one that Frank Klausz uses?
Here is a whole series ov videos on the topic. czcams.com/video/wUyz6iin-lk/video.html
a turning saw id larger then a coping saw but the blade can easily turn at both ends allowing you to make larger cuts that can turn. it is the fine bandsaw of the hand tool world.
a bow saw is any frame saw that it tensioned with string or bucket on the back. buck saws, continental joinery saws, and turning saws are all bow saws. and they are all frame saws. that would include the large ruboe saw and coping saw, but those are not bow saws.
the blade comes from Gramercy: here. it is a very fine blade and can turn in about 1/4" radius. toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/GT-BOWS.DRED/Gramercy_Tools_Turning_Saw_Line_-_11ft._Deep_Red
Yes I twist it much the same a Frank Klausz does. that is why I was using short strokes at the beginning close tot he handle. he used the larger continental saw. those are even faster as they have a greater stroke, but are FAR harder to control, and take a LOT of skill that I do not yet have.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo Thanks, James. You answered all my questions and then some. I greatly enjoy your videos and have learned a great deal from them. They and you are like having a good friend in my workshop.
What do you think about a rope saw that is the round one with abrasion all around?
they work well but they are slow in wood.
Accuracy is the issue. You can get closer to the line with a flat saw, and a round blade is harder to keep accurate on the lines. If you're worried about turning the saw in the corners, use a narrower flat blade. The narrower the saw blade the easier it is to turn. Have a look how jewellers cope with sawing metal. They use very narrow saws with lube to cut out simple and complex shapes.
I personally prefer the fret saw similar to what Cosman uses. I find the turning saw and coping saw too big and harder to control. I tried the chisel method, and did not enjoy it.
You also watch cosman
If you can get your hands on Frank Klausz's dovetail saw, it can be VERY quick.
Here is his demonstration:
czcams.com/video/YFqY73lelq8/video.html
Very interesting saw to see.
Yeah he likes those continental frame saws. They take a lot of skill to get close, but with that long of a stroke they're nice.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo It is also that fancy blade with the 90 deg bend. :)
I see a Jonathan kats mozes dovetail jigo the bench
yup. it is a good on. I have a couple videos talking about it.
So if you prefer the saw, that's copacetic.
Your only using 4 inch of blade why use such a big saw very uncomfortable in use
camera plays tricks on it. I generally stop 2 inches from eather end except for the turning portion. for that it needs to be close to the handle.
For me the only way to do dovetails is by hand using chisels. Learn Paul Seller's way of removing waste and you'll never do anything else.
That's the method I was using to remove the waist with the chisel. It's usually the way I do it when I want to send out.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo Paul chops out his waste and seldom uses a coping saw. One tool does the whole job. Ya gotta love it.
Frist commint
Woot woot. Congrats on first!
Next, we practice spelling with speed. Haha
there is one in every group!
I'll let you know after I make my turning saw. Sometime in 2027.
That quick? Ambitious
@@Apillicus yeah, I was trying to look like a proper woodworker in front of the internet. I'll never make one.
@@ricos1497 i believe in you, you just need to believe in you too
I would just say that for me, the product is the goal, not having fun. I'm not in it for money either, but I do care about making a perfect product. To me, the enjoyment is in producing something of high quality that I can use and enjoy. The process is just a means to that end. Any technique that produces the same result faster or easier is better to me, as long as it's safe and not offensive to the senses. Meaning no power tools, generally. But as long as there's no dust or noise, I just want to get something done as fast and as easy as possible. In the end, when I have the finished product, that's when I feel happiness. Until then, I feel mostly drive and struggle, not fun.
I feel for you then.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo Sorry. 😕 I know you work with wood for the love and joy of it, and perhaps expect to spread that to others in the same way you enjoy it. But it's not like I'm getting any less joy, I just don't get it until I'm finished. So the joy of woodworking for me is merely delayed, not absent. The joy of painting for me is the image, not the painting of it. Bob Ross might not understand that, but he doesn't have to for me to get a lot of joy out of painting nonetheless, and thus as much joy as anyone from his instruction. Same with you, man. Learning about tools and how to use them is the only way I'll ever find happiness in creating things with wood. And I want that very much.
I use a scroll saw i can cut on knife line