The Rise Of Mage Bot Laners - Are They Better Than ADCs? | League of Legends
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- čas přidán 25. 08. 2024
- In recent years, mages have been frequently spotted in the once known "AD" Carry role. Today we'll be discussing AP/Mage bot laners, and whether they might be stronger than marksmen themselves.
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#LoL #Champions #Mage
Once upon a time on the rift, there existed a 6th role, one so OP and specialized that it had only 1 champion in it before Riot removed it. Yes, I'm talking about River Shen, may he Rest In Peace.
Heh
River shen is only the most acceptable version of roaming supports
Sad that bard who is supposed to be alternative for river shen but bard cant never have that same impact like river shen had
Why did i know
@@mozkuthehermit5909 the modern and better version is actually River Pyke
I think you are missing some important factors
1: lost chapter is a HUGE power spike for lane pressure, its so huge that 1 season after the mages being meta on bot lane, riot released mythics with adc quiver
2: the autoattack diference on early game is not so high, a 55 ad 0,65 as vs a 65 ad 0,8 as is really negligible
3: botlaners dont really know how to play against mages, especially champions like draven who are really vulnerable against skillshots
4: mages can easily run tp as a summoner, since they have sufficient wave pressure to get a cheated recall what is easily more worth it than a defensive spell on early game
5: after level 6, some lanes have the potential to just get you from 100% to 0% if one cc is landed with the help of their supports (especially veigar, lux and syndra, yes the later two are viable too on botlane)
I’m surprised more people aren’t playing syndra bot. I’ve done pretty well with it because she can push wave with all her abilities being AOE until level 6 and then 100-0 an adc with her ult
@@murpl1462 my only problem with syndra pos rework is wave managing wile also hitting two spells constantly on enemy Champions for stacks, but yeah she's really powerful
Another 53% wr apc for a long long time was Cassiopeia, who was also not mentioned on the video
Lost chapter is also getting buffed (200 gold cheaper) in an upcoming patch iirc, so this could be a huge buff to botlane mages in both the support and adc role
@@alliu6562 That buff is live now
wow thats just like my ranked games, ive seen veigar too much times actually :( ... with TP ...always ...(
To be fair playing Mages in botlane fels way more easier than laning mid against half of the matchups
It is because there is much more burst in game now I think. Like, assassins matchups are harder to deal with because they now need just one good engage and you're basically dead as mage (we're talking about midlane). While in the past they could deal you a lot of hp but you rarely were in danger of dying if you had full hp. Even after the durability patch there is much more burst than in the past.
@@user-ve1xi4kh2r yeah, after durability update, they buffed assassins again, because they had low winrate. So no real change.
People kept saying ADC is too strong not realizing it’s not the marksmen. It’s supports and dragons that’s op. If Kog is fed and isn’t next to his support then he dies instantly to any assassin. That goes for every adc. But when support gets ahead they make everybody tankier and usually has a way to speed up allies or cc enemies. It’s just like when people say bot diff instead of support diff. Supports win the lane usually. Supports make the top and jung incredibly hard to kill in team fights and shut down assassins late game with abilities like polymorph. Everybody can kill the ADC even if the adc is with the mid. But not if the ADC is with the support. Support is op and cheaper support items are going to make them more OP
That's what I've been saying too. Mages have some form of agency because they have much more tools at their disposal than ADCs who just output raw damage. If an ADC gets ganked its typically up to the supp to do the best they can to deter the gank and turn the tide whereas ADC has to make sure to stay out of range and just click on heads. but generally the only way an ADC gets fed is if the supp makes the plays to get them those leads not the other way around.
as a new player i would love to hear more about how the roles became what they are and why they attract the classes they attract. and of course what you think how the different roles could or should work instead.
Marksmen were explained in the video.
Enchanters are obviously gonna play in the bot lane so that they have use of their abilities in the early game. They are also often not gold dependant, meaning they are fine with their adc taking all the farm.
Vanguards (engage tanks) play in the bot and mid lanes so that they can use their playmaking potential. In the bot lane, its about the enemies being squishy, and the vanguard always having someone to follow up. In the mid lane, its about their proximity to the rest of the map that makes them so very useful. Whenever a vanguard gets enough bonus damage vs jungle monsters, or are given some kind of self-sustain, they sometimes see play in the jungle for the same reasons as they are played midlane.
Assassins ("slayers") and burst mages are usually played in the midlane so they can roam and kill squishies, or make 2v1 plays in the enemy jungle.
Divers are almost always played in the toplane because the longer lane allows them to look for more 1v1 opportunities, much like bruisers. What really sets them apart is their mid to late game, where divers like playing for objectives, while bruisers try to draw pressure to their island.
Catchers primarily played as supports because they can stop enemies from engaging, meaning they peel very well for their adc.
Control mages tend to be played mid as they are great at pushing out waves using their superior AoE damage. This means they will always have lane prio, but also that the enemy assassin or diver wont have the same ability to roam. Control mages also tend to have weaker laning phases, so the shorter lane serves as great protection.
@@ViktorLoR_Mainu Divers = Bruisers.
Both Juggernauts and Divers like to play around objectives, because both classes shine in teamfights, since they have either a lot off CC/lockdown (Camille, Vi, Renekton) or tons of AoE (Sett, Darius, Illaoi).
I think you mistook Bruisers for Skirmishers (Duelists) who love to play on side lane and splitpush (Fiora, Jax, Tryndamere).
At first there were no designated roles. 5 players were just thrown in and did whatever. Jungle was incredibly damaging so only a few of the available champions could jungle, as for the other lanes. Players just did what works best for them and riot balanced around it.
@@gustas8048 the playerbase figures shit out themselves, indeed. 😆
@@walkelftexasranger divers don't have "a lot" of CC but has 1-2 potent easy to land cc. renekton stun, camille hookshot2, irelia stun, jarvan ult, panth jump etc
Karthus adc having a 53%+ WR for like 5 patches in a row lol
Its only because only one tricks play karthus botlane so the wr and pickrates are massively skewed.
we all love a good singer.
but qiyana gets gutted even though only one tricks play her riot clown moment :D
based sadness pfp
with 1% pickrate and mostly mains playing him. I mean Xayah and jinx had 52%+ wr with 25% pick for like 3 month. Thats much more of a problem. 53% wr with 1% pick is completely fine.
pointing out the dash range of melee champs compared to typical ADC range puts numbers to something that actually bothers me a lot. I play Wukong bot a lot because once he hits level 2-3 depending on the opponents if they don't give you infinite respect you can just dash on them and end their life. It's kinda crazy that I can play a melee champ bot lane and do better with him regardless of my support than I can with an ADC I have 500K+ mastery on.
THIS is the reason why I find Nilah so interesting. She has 2 dashes, great wave clear, resistance to both AD and AP champs with her W and best of all, insane scaling.
It's like if an ADC had to adapt to the modern days of league and this was the monster that was born.
yeah, i sometimes play gwen apc, and it's funny how exploitable it is. she also has an insane late game, so she doesn't get outscaled and can pretty much be stronger than the adc in every stage of the game.
Jax adc is literally torture for botlaners
@@venteanariI've played it too, her W makes the range difference disgustingly irrelevant sometimes, I do have some difficulties farming depending on the support.
I want to point out that the lost chapter cost reduction and dcap buffs single-handedly sent karthus bot to a 56% WR
It is also MR nerf sno?
Coming from dota, I don't know why people are so obsessed picking marksmen archetypes of heroes in that 1 specific lane, when there are multiple lanes and multiple styles of gameplay.
For me, picking Akshan/Vayne top is a clever move, as it changes the lane equilibrium and how can change the matchup to be much more favorable compared to using the default "meta".
Also, Jax adc is a big brain move from the person in happychimenoises' video.
Because ppl that play lol are stuck in stuck in current meta, I played lol when it came out and coming from Dota I played wierd stuff and everybody was flaming me because I went ap bot or vayne top lo and behold some famous guy does the same and it's OK to do now
@@Nobodyfromnowhere42 Both of you doesn't understand a single thing about how this game works... That's why. Do some research before complaining...
@@alexandrereynaud7884 Sure, try explaining a complicated interaction between how old rageblade works, and how it gave Jhin an insane amount of damage that they needed to make a whole rule to not allow people go for rageblade on Jhin during that time period?
@@Nobodyfromnowhere42 they don't say caitlyn support is viable unless a pro player used it in a tournament hahaha
Simple. "Complacent gaming syndrome". There is no real rule that states you have to play the way the current meta is, but people are so used to it that the very idea of trying something different to mix things up will just be treated as the wrong way to play the game. Honestly, why I find LoL so stale as a game, which it doesn't have to be.
my issue with ap botlaners is this. Marksman are only allowed in a SINGLE position on the rift consistently, outside of 2 outliars being quinn and kindred (graves is not a marksman anymore, he is a bruiser). Any time a marksman tries to leave botlane and sees ANY kind of success riot gutts them into the dirt, a few examples
1. ezreal mid, sure it was a little strong, but far from broken, and was deleted from the game in 1 patch.
2. ezreal jungle, it wasn't even that strong, it had strong dueling power, and that was it. riot proceeded to GUTT ezreal out of the game for 2 years after that.
3. kog'maw mid, he was playing as a weaker xerath, and riot gutted him for that
4. kog'maw jungle, now this was an issue with bloodrazer more than kog, but still another example
5. lucien mid, riot gutted his e resets and w ms boost for daring to leave botlane
6. lucien mid AGAIN, this time riot fucking EMERGENCY REWORKED THE ENTIRE CHAMPION OUT OF THE LANE
7. vayne top, the hashinshins got that one gutted even though it had under a 1% pickrate, so they never even saw the damn pick
8. tristana has been nerfed for going midlane more time than i can count at this point
9. the most recent example Ashe support, rather than letting her play her utility role, riot just gutted the entire build and "made up for it" with some fucking attackspeed on q
that is my issue with ap botlaners. the fact that no other class is gimped to one position but marksman.
Riot does the same thing with crit items. any time an adc DARES to no want to build those garbage fucking items (garbage until recently) riot would gutt the champion and then throw a crit scaling into their kit just to force them to build items that were objectively trash
but i want you to imagine if any other class was treated like this. "we dont like that bruisers are going midlane, so we've reduced all of their magic resistances from 32 down to 14, but increasing their armor across the board by 3". there would be riots in the streets and riot members would be tarred and feathered if this ever happened. yet when it happens to marksman its fine??????
This so much this any time they dare tho be played anywhere or anything else they get hotgix gutted (lethality xayah lasted about 3 hours before the hotfix nerf if I remember correctly) people complain about bot laners being over buffed and "league of bot side" and "every other role has variety on the champions! Suck it up!" But they are the same people who cry at the sight of a vayne top. Make up your mind people.
@@dragonsreingsupreme1 right? XD. Vayne top hit a 1% playrate in top lane and all the hashinshins rage shit their pants about it.
Reminds me how this season nilah was viable building lethality bot and then they gutted her
This aged horribly...
@munchiemunchie5226 i mean. Midlane adcs already got gutted. Top 30 most picked is litterally only smolder, and he's at a 45% winrate, so not what i'd call viable.
And adcs top arent real other than vayne and her GARGANGUAN 1.9% pickrate. You know. 23x less than the top 3 being aatrox, sett and darius.
So not really. 2 weeks of tristana mid and watching her immedietly get gutted, and then the adc items get gutted proves my point even harder here actually.
I'm surprised that Heimer didn't make the short list for AP bot laners. He's already one of the safer laners in the game because he can keep pushing the turret line up, and when you pair him with a lockdown support or someone with a grab, he can be a serious monster.
Or Anivia, she ticks all the boxes to 🤔
@@midgetlover011anivia doesn't have the range, as her main dmg comes from the E-burst and her E has around the same range as her AAs which is lower than most adcs irc
@@Dashkanan1 This. and she doesnt have much of a passive.
You cant reliably stay behind turrets and exert pressure simultaneously as well in bot (which is why Azir doesnt like going down there either) and shes very short ranged; but also having two champs ready to auto your Egg AND the risk of minion waves makes it awful to play around your passive. Plus you still have a lot of ttention from junglers and no way out
I actually use Heimer when playing into Draven and Nautilus. Heimer's turrets are so strong that Draven can't readily take them out early game without taking a lot of damage. Plus, Heimer Bot takes Teleport typically, and nearly all traditional marksmen and supports do not take TP, allowing you to show up with a very quick Lost Chapter.
@@Dashkanan1İt's higher than most adcs
I find it interesting how often different roles rotate to different positions often, like assassins in top, mages as support, certain tanks as junglers, and yet most people don't like it when a marksmen rotates anywhere besides bot. Many don't like facing them top or even mid, and would rather not see them in jungle. The only role not allowed to change the status quo it seems.
The problem is that almost every adc aside special cases like Graves Kindred or Akshan (and uuuh Quinn I suppose) has been designed by Riot with the idea of being in a duo lane, thus at lower level than the average and generally either relying on support protection or engage to do their things.
Whenever a adc can actually go to a lane, they get a higher influx of gold and experience than they would normally in a duo lane, basically reaping the benefits of the class (high dps, range and strong scaling) without any of the downsides (vulnerability and lower base stats), so almost every time one of them is viable in another lane, they end up being op, unless they are specifically designed as solo laner like the 4 above.
supports get hated when they rotate out of bot as well
mages in bot are the what adcs are in top
cancer
@@dicorockhimself for same reason of adcs :P (most) Supports, expecially enchanters and tanks, are designed by having lower level and even less gold, so often they have insanely inflated base stats or base damages to compensate. Meaning that if you give them gold or items, they're insanely op.
See Pyke before they nerfed him into the ground, or pretty much any of the tank supports in ARAM which become basically unkillable.
@@worldiefeard8396 oh i know i was just stating the facts about them both being the roles not allowed to rotate
As someone who has played taliyah bot for like 4 seasons and has even been recently successful with Diana bot, mages are definitely stronger bot than mid. Especially because imo burst tends to be more useful than “consistent damage” mainly cause in contest of consistent damage and burst, burst will just kill the consistent damage before they have the chance to get all that damage off
Also, supports can add onto that burst with their own damage and make it much more easy to land with cc.
As a mid mage main I used to play secondary support, but recently I noticed it is way easier to just go secondary Botlane and play Seraphine and Veigar whom I already play mid, just in botlane and it has proven itself really effective
The times when I play Seraphine bot and my support is Lux is the time enemy botlane has no chance of existing while we also outscale them
i'm still kinda new, play all roles and i genuinly don't understand the benefit of playing botlane as opposed to solo lane. don't you feel much weaker playing your mages botlane instead of mid. i mean you're gonna be down 2 levels for no real compensation.
@@bigsmoke4592 I play botlane because I get autofilled, not because I want to :)
Yes, it feels much worse playing botlane than mid but it does so for other roles too because my main role is mid
I play Cassiopeia bot. She doesn't really have the advantages of other mage botlaners, instead she plays like traditional ADCs with her consistent and sustained damage. One would think Azir bot is similar, but it's really not the case because he's so much more dependent on solo xp for his scaling than gold
It's probably cause it's such an old change, but something I don't see talked about when concerning how botlane meta developed is that your AP stat did no damage to turrets so having an AD carry was necessary for pushing. And sure, that probably seems irrelevant to league today, except that riot has, for better or worse, decided to balance the game around the meta that developed in early league. That's partly why aberrant playstyles, like classic funnel strats or roaming janna top, get nerfed out of existence by changes to fundamental mechanics. Both developers and community seem to have largely accepted that those early metas are the core league of legends experience.
Also league's balance and meta being so heavily influenced by pro play is likely why AD carries are seen as the standard, even if AP carries might often be better in solo queue.
Great video.
I'm genuinely curious why we don't see mages in the bot more. As a mid main that can't play marksman to save my life, when I get filled bot I STILL try to play marksman in an attempt to learn, rather than choosing a safe mage I can already play. I have no idea why.
The meta has been marksman bot so long that I struggle to choose or even think of playing anything else. It's interesting to say the least.
Honestly I think ots because marksman have been so pigeonholed into botlane it feels awful to play them anywhere else. Barring a few exceptions marksman who try to branch out get nerfed into oblivion so if you want to play a marksman and like the playstyle. You have to go bot.
I wonder when Riot will play around the idea of having a mage bot laner in the same fashion they played with the idea of having a melee bot laner (Nilah)
Nolan really isn’t a mellee champ
Look up original Mordekaiser
@@fillphd however awful he was it was still funny to see him q3 1 shot lmao
Zeri, ezreal, just not quite magic damage.
And Zeri is nothing but a balance issue lol. Either way too strong or way too weak
lost chapter is the problem, when your only weakness in botlane gets covered with 1300 gold its not balanced, assassins can burst down mages but adcs cant and with nearly infinite mana they have all the pros and none of the cons
Its 1100 now aswell lol
@@donvitopatata direct buff to ap botlaners kekw
They literally have no movement, you can just stun them or go all out and you Will probably win
@@nicolasespejo3039 they have better self peel than adcs you can't just stuns them
Can we tanks get an MR grievous item or what
Ong I could have a cool name like Midas's Cloak or something
Just yesterday i've saw my Draven Blitzcrank bot lane get destroyed by a Veigar soraka, it already says a lot to me.
Veigar is an especially bullshit situation in bot lane. At level one he has absolutely nothing to out-damage a direct engage from your average adc, but that’s not your main concern; the support will be there to have his back, to add on to the additional form of self-peel and pick potential Veigar already has. That’s what makes him such a pain in bot lane, you get punished for engaging on him and you also get punished for doing nothing to him as he’s going to start clearing every wave faster than you can and it’s difficult for your jungler to make up for it because of Veigars cage combined with whatever additional peel the support will bring. It borders on a lane lost at champ select.
APC are some of the most fun characters to play, because theres nothing better than watching the ADC start flaming you when they start loosing.
I think the biggest problem with AP carrys is damage output is not consistant since you had to hit the abilities and marskman not. Soo missing 1 ability with and apc is the diferences in winning or losing a trade. Marksman auto attack damage is not avoidable so is easier to stack check you when they are ahead and apc dont have that priviledge.
My freind and I love playing Asol APC + Anivia Support. They work so well together for so many reasons. And they both scale very well into late.
you can go cass apc too, and usually you out dps the enemy at lost chapter assuming you can reach them
Great episode. Tbh I'm almost 50-50% AD-AP botlaner to adapt on team/having fun. Don't forget the Varus AP build, that's a great way for a Botlaner player to add AP and to 100%→0% with 1 R-WQ (even on tank).
i do this with cariopea. cus she is basikly an ad charakter in playstyle already, also the ult matters more in 2v2 than 1v1 while the spit rarely needs to be used in lane so i can usualy use it to nope a jungle gank
My favorite AP Carry is hands down Taliyah. Now, granted, my favorite champion of all time is Taliyah, but still. She fits the roll kinda like Karthus, her Q replaces her Auto Attack. She trades some of his damage for her Wombo Combo and better zoning. Works really well with engage supports or even other mages with more consistant CC like Swain, Lissandra, or Morgana.
Only downside is that your q gets blocked my minions
@@aemcra6256 True, but you can work around it with practice
In meta where dragon priority has gone out of controll so you need cc and stronger abilities to get that priority
Most adc champions do not have this options so you need good wave clear mages and those have some form of cc in their kit
In the end of the Video you said :"Picking Vladimir or Kennen in the Botlane is kinda troll". I play Kennen a lot in Botlane with good success. Great poke and great all in potential + escape when i get ganked.
I remember it as a response to the early 4 man dives and the start of the assassin meta after the marksman rework.
I play ziggs only bot, something about my entire life being dodgeable whilst their autos not so feels like balance
I main Ziggs. On mid. But all your abilities being skillshots (especially the difficulty of landing a long range q) makes him so freaking annoying sometimes. I love him.
Actually, there is a reason bot is where it is. The reason is that there was back then, and still is now more to gain from having a strong presence in the botside river than in the top side. Before there were heralds there was basically no reason to control the topside until the baron spawns. So naturally, people figured out it’s better to send the double lane into the place where there is more to gain for the team. By the time herald(s) were added it became such a strong convention that it is now difficult to break, although even with heralds, there is not really any need for two people to be there except for when it actually spawns, and pro teams usually rotate bot for it if they want the objective, so there still isn’t really any reason to send two people top rather than bot. There is also a reason two people don’t go mid
I swear every time he pronounces xin Zhao I just think he has to be able to speak Chinese because his pronunciation is just so good but every other Asian word he says is also so well pronounced like when he got sponsored by sakuraco and Tokyo treat he pronounced every japanese word extremely well
Im Chinese and have a background with Japanese btw that's why I'm saying that
Didn’t vars mention that he was Asian in one of his videos (I remember it being on his third channel), so he might be Chinese.
I genuinely like Brand and Lux for AP bot roles. They work at bot anyway, and if you give them enough gold from farming, they are that much more dangerous. Most likely Vel'Koz can also do it for example.
Kennen as an AP bot is also a pretty safe pick, because of his E escape tool. And at level 6 your engagement potential is insane.
Swain also works in this role at bot.
Played some morgana as ap carry a couple of times. Kinda worked, when you don't go 0/5 in the first 5 minutes
As always it's dependent on meta (As vars says) but there's just something so inherently broken against mages having consistent curves compared to adc's, meaning that while marksmen are hella busted late game but to a lesser extent, so are mages. Check out all the mages in bot lane, they are all p solid scalers, meaning that as a mage you have an inherent advantage over the enemy marksmen because the lead they will inevitably gain then transitions into a situation where as a mage you just auto win. I say this as a disgusting Karthus bot main, I can auto win my lanes because I bully marksmen while having the immense scaling ability to just press r and win any fight. This is a problem individual to Karthus but it's a common theme among mage bot laners. Seraphine ult, Veigar cage, Swain e, Karthus ult/q, ziggs w, they all have abilities to force interaction or no interaction, meaning as an adc you're at the mercy of the mage for the first 10-15 minutes of the game. So in summary, mage bot laners just have the ability to screw over adc's early on and still scale incredibly well.
Karthus is literally turbo broken
As a support main I say... good.
Bully the bullies (ADCs). They're awful in general.
You'll get Vaynes trying to 1v2 a Draven/Leona under enemy tower at the level 2 point and then they flame you when they die and proceed to run it down.
Make them miserable. They deserve it.
@@Empmortakaten it's just digusting adc's giving bad rap (cookielol)
Well they do get compensated for having high consistent unavoidable damage. I know its proplay but in a coordinated team, adcs are incredibly important in the current meta right now.
A PSA that Karthus Seraphine and Veigar should be perma meta this patch :)
I remember the time when my friends convinced me to play LoL again two seasons ago, it was like that episode of the Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy where Billy finds Fred Flintstone and tries to make him fit in the modern world
I was coming back from season 4 and holy shit the game was so different!
As a bot lane player, I LOVE playing mages. Ziggs is one of my favorites, and when I play Kai'sa I tend to go all in on AP poke since I really don't trust my team to use their cc to peel, if they even pick something with hard cc at all.
What I don't like is that no support seems to know how to play alongside an AP bot laner. It sucks to pick Ziggs or Karth and then have your support pick Lulu or other bad synergy pick, or having a Senna shove lane all game and wonder why you can't farm or poke. I would absolutely play an AP bot laner in most of my games since it's easier to play safe and I can be a little more independent, but the amount of flaming I get is unreal.
Adc have been shafted due to ever shortening ttk.
Many adc kit revolves around hitting enemy multiple times as fast as possible.
With as cap being 1.8-2.5 you are not gonna get more than 5 hits realistically when most fights last less than 5s.
So most adcs need to have extra utility/chunk potential.
Where mages shine being in bot
Note: this is not 100% accurate, but is somewhat true
Toplaners are pretty strong into most mids,
Midlaners are pretty strong into botlaners,
and botlaners are pretty strong in the toplane
1) Not all, but quite a few Top Laners can outlast in the early game the mana pools of most Mid Lane Mages and they are also tanky enough to deal with assassins
2) An extra set of CC abilities goes a long way with engage supports
3) Ranged auto attacks are OP against melee champs in the early levels (before a tank / bruiser can rushes Plated Steelcaps)
@@bohomazdesign725 So, what I said?
To add onto this, junglers also do decently in lane since they usually have good waveclear and sustain
When I play mages bot the biggest difference I feel is items. Mage items offer many more ways to respond to a game and I can comfortably build armor and a ton of health. Seldom do I feel weaker than my adc opponent even at 40 minutes purely bc I have health and defense while still having more than enough dmg to nuke anyone not building defense
Its so stupid... a Seraphine that goes Rod, Seraphs, Rylai's, Demonic, Rabadons and Zhonyas will have around 4000 HP, with another 1k effective HP from Seraph's shield and her W. Yet she will also deal enough damage to oneshot squishies...
How does video that is so good only had 7.5K views!?
this map looks so cool omg
you sort of mentioned it but I think ap carries have better synergy with engage supports and controllers (veigar, brand, lux) than ad carries. Every time I play as ziggs/veigar/seraphine bot, I can chose to poke them out of lane with ziggs + lux, cc chain the enemy adc or support from range with ziggs/ seraphine + veigar or just go for a kill lane like nautilus + ziggs/veigar as the root makes it so much easier to burst enemies down. Mages also do not suffer as much as adcs when they perma group up with their team because 1. though they are level dependent, they have utility and 2. they clear waves well, which means their income is not as bad as adcs and 3. their threat level in mid game is absurd. Trust me, after level 6 roam mid with ziggs or veigar and they would not have a fun time.
This might seem a little troll but I think Asol could be considered an AP bot-laner due to his infinite scaling and similar playstyle to swain. What he lacks in safety and defense he can make up for in roaming potential.
I played it on release and holy shit is ap bot asol great with someone who cannot cc covets his weak early so he van easily become a monster
It's pretty fun as long as your team has ad. you'll always be able to do something. Early you are weak but hey you get to farm and stack stardust.
God auto correct do be making ne sound like i was high when I Commented lmao
I think its really weird that everytime a magic dmg build for an adc pops up riot tends to nerf it to the ground. Happend to kaisa and varus
to zeri as well, when she used to have lux ult on like 10 seconds cd
@@stoppons6131 so a standard lux ult?
9:00 *jhin raises his hand*
In Wild Rift especially in competitive. This is more meta than the PC version. Believe me, there's a lot of Ziggs bot and even Zoe bot.
I am Vel'koz apc enjoyer ever since ProGuides suggested it in one of their videos 😅
Honey wake up! Vars just dropped!!!!
I’m an ADC main, but I love playing seraphine or veigar bot and I have great winrates with them. Funnily enough, my best ADC is MF who you can basically play like an AD mage.
you forgot malzahar, brand, and my personal favorite, diana :D
Casseopeia bot also exists but nobody plays her, even though you would think ADC players would have the mechanics to make her work
She carries a stigma of being too difficult of a champion to pilot. Used to be Azir or Kalista levels of difficulty. Even though they fixed her like 4 years ago
The problem with Cassio ADC is that she really wants levels for her passive, it’s that simple
@@stanislavmegued554 true, all you really need to know now is how to move while spamming E and zeri players already do that
@@murpl1462 Yeah, even easier compared to Zeri, because E is targeted, while Zeri Q is a skillshot
I usually play adc Bot then I play League (Wild Rift).
This video made me actually want to try out playing AP Bot.
Asol bot is pretty good and flexible. Best with certain supports but its pretty good overall.
My main champs are Ahri, Syndra and Viktor and I will gladly troll them into bot lane whenever I get auto filled out of mid. Especially Syndra can have nasty combos with supports like Lux, Morgana, Swain or other CC heavy enchanters. I'd almost say that I pick her more often bot than in mid lane due to assassins being slightly annoying. Viktor is probably much better mid than bot but he's fun and once lvl 6 you just automatically win lane.
Season 1 my bro and i use to run dual diver in bot
Its almost as if this mages are a counter to adcs in general. Thats why they are played there. Its exactly the same reason adcs are played top and mid on ocasion. Its not a "regular" pick, its a counterpick
Phreak actually talked about this! Mages are made significantly stronger in lower elos due to players straight up forgetting to take MR runes. They are still strong, but their winrate is slightly inflated silver and lower.
Nah. What I hve seen is a 53 percent Wr all the way up to gm.
As I say to my friends when playing Viktor bot: the glorious evolution happens in bot lane
Wouldn't respective resistance penetration/shred/ or removal also be parameters that also affect damage for both attacks and abilities?
nowadays i play vex and my premade does brand. it's fun and effective
Mages outpoke ADCs, which is why mages are traditionally played mid instead of ADCs.
There are 3 big reasons that mages have traditionally been questionable picks in the bot-lane role:
- They don't deal well with fights that aren't 1-1, as they have no offense after their volley of abilities.
- They need their abilities to farm, leaving them too vulnerable with so many enemies nearby.
- It is difficult not to run out of mana while farming AND also fighting against two enemies.
Some mages, such as Karthus, do not run out of mana and have abilities on short cooldowns.
Other mages, such as Ziggs, easily solve their only problem - mana - with itemization (and runes).
Most mages are still terrible as bot-lane picks. Even with mana items, they struggle to farm AND fight.
But this isn't the end of analysis. Viability changes by ELO:
- In low ELO, opponents get hit by poke and do not take advantage of enemy cooldown windows.
- In mid/high ELO, opponents are "trained" to play cautiously and still don't go in when they should.
- In the highest ELOs (other than pro play), mages get punished severely. Bot-mage is almost unplayable.
- In pro play, deliberate caution is the rule - so again, they don't go in when they should be doing so.
If RIOT wants mages in bot-lane not to be a thing, they need to:
- reduce the ability range of some mages
- increase the mana costs for some mages
- increase ability cooldowns for some mages
- start calling Karthus an ADC and be done with it
But even then, poking supports are a smart play when everyone plays so cautiously. So mages will still be in bot-lane. Xerath support is actually pretty good. It's the same tactic as a Jhin or Ezreal support, where you just harass the enemy ADC so that they cannot farm. Difficult to punish due to the range of it. Doesn't help that a lot of gap-closer mechanics are going away, and tower diving is about to become less safe to do. Expect a lot more mage supports incoming.
Why do you consider Kennen bot troll? His w passive has an ad scaling, and stacks based on auto attacks, as opposed to ability casts, His q is a skill shot like mostotger adc abilities. With a nashors tooth and the new hybrid marksman items, id say hed make a good mage botlaner, if you put in a little time.
I wonder whatever happened to Cassiopeia bot. I'm glad she doesn't go down there anymore, but I haven't played pvp in a long time and I didn't see her mentioned in the video
why does your summoner's rift look cooler than default
Also in ur scaling calculation you miss represent the factor range plays.
Ränge is the most important scaling metric.
And the only adcs that can match images range with aas are jinx q kog w maybe Cait with rapid senna late and aphrlios with r.
Every other acc can just get gunned down before they even get to aa
Would Ryze be a good AP Bot Laner? He is missing range but he scales incredibly well late game with consistent DPS.
I have been playing asol bot lane and its kinda nuts.
8:25 not exponential. Just higher order polynomial, or in this case, about stats total to the third power (crit, as, ad).
What are your thoughts about Heimerdinger, Syndra, Cassiopeia, Neeko botlane?
Almost anyone can go boy lane now a days and the simple concept of ADC isn’t as prevalent a thing anymore which is interesting to see.
The problem here is that the other way around is still not possible. ADCs are still chained to bot lane and cannot be played in any other role (unless you're Kindred or playing something cheesy like jungle Twitch). This is mostly due to the way the class is designed where if you gave them any form of agency whatsoever, they instantly become the best class in the game. Solo lane Lucian is one of the best examples of this.
While Riot has tried their hand at making ADCs that are designed to solo lane (hi Akshan for mid and release Zeri), they still don't have as much agency as your typical solo laner and/or need to be overloaded/overtuned to have some form of agency.
karthus bot is my legit tryhard pick
11:00 us veigar mains thank you
Lol I only play mages in bot, this was made for me. Been maining Heimerdinger recently
You forgot about Lethality/Magic Pen for abilities
QUALITY
I love Cassiopeia bot. Same dps as a adc with a support to back you up.
8:50, Jhin?
I'd feel more in favor of the AP Bot laner if Battlemages were designed to be able to function in bot lane opposed to burst mages. Like, it's just not fun getting CC chained from 100% to 0% (or getting chunked by 80% or even 60%) just because you got hit by a stray attack from either the enemy apc or support. And by battlemages, I just mean mages that value sustained DPS over burst combos. Heimerdinger apc isn't as annoying to go up against as Veigar apc, and I'd be Heim is the more interesting of the two to play.
Mfw I play this and get pentakilled by the opponent 0/6 Jinx because she hit her spike and gets 300 damage 3x/sec while my 600damage skillshot can miss, costs mana, and goes on a 3sec cooldown.
Is my Cassio pocket pick bad? 😭
I don't think Cassio bot is bad. But that pick feels significantly more risky than the other mages played in bot. Often it feels like without the right support or against the wrong enemy duo she just auto loses.
Whenever I played her after the first all-in either I get a double kill or I'm oom and enemies that know what they are doing would at that point start playing hyper aggro to kill me or make it impossible for me to farm or get a good recall.
But her damage is really solid even early, and she definitely plays more like a traditional adc compared to Veigar, Ziggs, Karthus etc.
Also she's hella fun when playing duo bot with a friend on a poison champ like Teemo or Twitch
12:44 But what if you play him like an actual ADC? You can stun people with just your auto attacks as well as having a super ultimate. Ever since the new item update I've been spamming it (in pisslow Bronze FYI) and doing incredibly well.
Kennen adc just doesnt do enough damage due to preety much not having abilities if you dont build ap. His e is the only reason its somewhat viable, but not nearly as good as an actual adc
@@alex2005z *cough cough* 120% bonus AD scaling on his W passive *cough cough*
@@a1a7s45 oh no, 120% ad every 5 autos? What shall I do?
@@alex2005z On top of that you can just W and Q them after for a free stun which is far more utility than most ADC
@@a1a7s45 which doesnt make up for doing half the dmg
I still don’t understand how the lol community took 7 years to figure out that champions other than marksman can be played in the bot lane
The idea was that mages have very powerful ultimates so they should go mid to get as much xp as possible
@@ventu7907 you can play multiple mages
Playing Evelynn support is so funny now because of the MR shred benefitting both you and your ap carry 💀
Cringe
I still get some joy out of playing mages botlane, but I primairly play Syndra and Lux for mage option. Often getting griefed as a result cus they'rent play much if at all.
without having watched the video yet, i find it disgusting that karthus bot has 59% wr in euw
Are you the kind of person that only looks at wr and assumes yasuo is weak?
@@inbeing3464yasuo is pretty weak with the item changes
@@arieltabbach4946 no, people are just too retarded to know what to build atm. Yasuo is just fine.
exept he doesnt...hes at 54% wr gold+ with 0,5% pick. Ofc his wr is higher if only mains play him.
@@arieltabbach4946 oh no, you have to build bruiser items to be durable? or take 1 or 2 tank items????
wow, its almost like jax/fiora/irelia/camille and other champs like that have been doing that the WHOLE TIME and not complaining at all, no need for hotfix buff when they are forced to change build path
Another mage to go for bot lane is brand with two conditions. No assassins and 2+ tanks on the other team.
Apc like karthas right now are incredibly stronger than adc then all points in the game right now. Level 1 karth isolated q is crazy.
unless their team is v tanky/ we’re ap heavy/ i want to play a specific champ, i dont see the point in playing adcs. why does it matter how i kill them (with autos or abilities) if they die. mages can offer better survivability, are easier to lane, play from behind, and better when even with a marksman. dps is great, but burst is better
Like the main reason APC botlane works, or should be used, is if your team is full pants on head retarded, going full AD. When picking champions always be mindful of your teams CC power (Stun or better, slows do not count) and damage type. You will be more likely to lose (not always, but likely) a game by not taking hard CC vs a team with hard CC. Also will be hard pressed to win the game if going full AD, as the other teams tank(s) and even Divers just need a bit of armor to nullify your damage, regardless of who you play. Full AP teams are harder to shut out of the damage pool due to the lack of good MR items and how Mpen is calculated is different too. A mage going full Mpen will still nuke a full MR built tank where as a full Lethality/armor pen ADC will struggle to hurt a full Armor tank.
Hi Vars, i'm curious on your take on LOL's Wild Rift and why it's not as big as its competitors
I had an enemy veigar ziggs botlane. Viegar throws a random cage and ziggs W you into the cage. Annoying as fck to pkay against
pls do qiyana
Damn, remember when Corki was a marksman? I almost forgot
i feel like mage apcs are a consequence of the "assassin/toplaner" meta in mid lane. ad mid laners like irelia, akali, zed etc, and top laners like riven, mord and sion easily crush most mages even if they have hard cc(i know skill expression exists, but one missed q can mean instant death for a lux when laning against trendamere or garen. when playing mid lane there is a far smaller margin of error for mages when compared to bot lane.)
obviously im not saying mages are unplayable mid, but often times apc is more fun and interactive than mid lane
Trust me we still played adc when it was like season 3 and every single assassin two shot adc with no items and no ult, it has nothing to do with that. It's just that stats have caught on that a role that relies on having a team doesn't work when there's 4 player in your game that wants to f your mom.
ADCs are in a lost spot. They sorta win top lane in some matchups but only early for the most part (potentially screwing your team out of a tank), mid turns into recall simulator unless you can dance around mage skill shots, and theyve been getting pushed out of bot for the past 2 years.
Mages dont have to wait for an item or 2 power spike, they get lost chapter and have mana for the rest of laning phase.
1-35 min ADCs can be one shot by more than half the enemy team and past that they arent killing a top laner.
Heimer, Ahri, Zyra, Lux, Xerath, basically any mage combo with some CC makes for a nightmare bot lane that will bore you to death.
How does the map look like it's autumn or fall on summoner's rift? Is it just color shading?