Online Seminar „Historians and the War: Discussion with Prof. Timothy Snyder”
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- čas přidán 12. 06. 2022
- moderated by Martin Schulze Wessel.
The seminar took place on June 9, 2022 and is part of the series „Historians and the War: Rethinking the Future“, which is a joint initiative of the German-Ukrainian Historians' Commission, the Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies, the Department of Eastern European History at Munich University, and the Ukraine-based scholarly journal Ukraina Moderna.
www.duhk.org/historians-and-war
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I should have listened to this historian before my many coments on this issue and crisis. It is akin to listening to oneself singing in the shower where we sound so much clearer and star like. I will have to look at his published work. Kudos Professor Snyder.
Anne Applebaum is also very interesting on this subject.
Also read and watch historian and the foremost Stalin expert Stephen Kotkin and watch Russian by birth, Oxford trained philosopher Vlad Vexler on CZcams, probably two of the most insightful voices on Russia and Putin today.
The Russian occupation forces in Kherson have ordered all libraries in the Kherson area to make a list of their Ukrainian-language books and destroy them. To me that sounds fascist, like the Papist Inquisition, the Nazi Party, etc.
thanks for the great talk.
How do we not learn about WW2 this way ??
I appreciate these talks so much. Very enlightening.
Snyder is very interesting here on the German perspective on this war and its disappointing limitations.
I hope he is - I had to pause at 7:38 because his starting point seemed way off to me (not German, Finnish), and I wanted to look at the comments.
What made me pause is that I don't perceive the slow German reaction as having really anything to do with Ukraine. More it feels like an unwillingness/inability to really see what was happening with Russia. I think we all in North/Middle-europe who were never part of the Russian post wwii world have had this hope, since the middle of the 90-ies, that Russia would become a normal country. And have been willing to turn a blind eye to so much (really starting with Jeltsin's coup in 1993, but really escalating under Putin since about 2007).
Our view of the future has been built on this dream.
We should have reacted more strongly at the latest in 2014, but there was still all the sunk cost of believing in "Wandel durch Handel".
And from a middle aged layperson's perspective it was astonishing how fast Germany was able to change wrt military aid. Pacifism, strictly staying out of military matters felt like such a bedrock of what modern Germany is. The memes created by this, or especially by the international pressure on Germany, felt really true.
(Yes, yes, I know this strict "self-defense only" paradigm has been gradually chewed away at since 2001, but still.)
Ok. Thanks for letting me vent, now I'm ready to listen to Snyder's more Ukraine-centred ideas about Germany's reaction :-).
Pausing at 36:49.
Yes, I'm familiar with Snyder's take on the colonial view of Ukraine (and tend to agree with it, or at least find it useful).
But when it comes to a specific German reaction to Ukraine, and specifically a reaction to fascist leanings in Russia I feel he forgets that from 1945 to 1991 (ish) many aspects of fascism was off the table in so far as they also applied to the Soviet Union. Staying alive, as nations, in this post wwii era was predicated on buying the Soviet interpretation of fascism. Only loony right wingers with portraits of Nixon or Reagan on their walls and subscriptions to Reader's Digest (which was very anti-Soviet in its European editions) could have strayed from the view that fascism was something totally different than whatever could be seen in the Soviet empire.
Another thing that I feel is lacking in the analysis is that it feels natural (to me, as a Finn) that German memory-politics would mostly focus on what was geographically nearby.
1. Not only is it easier, it is also arguably more important, to focus on mass murder that takes place in a quasi-civilian setting (camps) than what happens in campaigns of war.
2. If you start talking too much about places very far from post war German borders you will open the pandora's box of the 12-14 million expelled Germans. In order not to do this, you must centre the discussion away from places where there were previously German minorities. You absolutely needed to keep a lid on any kind of heimweh of this group of citizens.
Points 1 and 2 together means that the post wwii German idea of self _must_ be inward looking, must not look East. Must not see, must not criticise, must not get involved. The main point is that German-ness has no place east of the Oder.
And then post 1991? Travelling in the Baltics, Poland, Czech-and-Slovakia, Transsylvania, Western Ukraine - yes, a little bit of German interest might be welcome and permissible. But still in ~1995 in Estonia someone born in the 70ies can with a straight face say "oh, the Germans, that's our traditional arch-enemy, everyone knows, we don't have to discuss it".
I feel the time since 1991, although it is 30 years, is still too short to come to a comfortable view of German-ness in the east. It is still more important to show that Germany has no interest, opinions, claims in that direction.
@@Asptuber maybe dont think about understanding russia first when ukrainians get genocided by them? This is exactly what he means
@@lenas6246 He is a historian, not a reporter. So I do expect a bit of historical analysis from him - and iirc (it's been nearly 2 years since this video!) this was in a _German_ context.
In 2022 I was shocked that we were back to a 18th century (I'm culturally Swedish) view of Russia. Now I just accept it.
(BTW, my personal view starting in 2014 is that sanctions is a game of cowardly bureaucrats. An aircraft carrier in the Black Sea would have been better.)
As a german landscape-architect I learned in the 1980ies a lot about the german colonial war in eastern europe. Konrad Meyer and Heinrich Wiepking-Jürgensmann have been a leading part in it, centered on the planned killing of 39 million people and the enslaving of another great part of the population as Untermenschen. killing the millions of jews was just the beginning of the mass murder that was planned to come with the so called Generalplan Ost. Both of them had been professsors at the technical university of Hannover during the 1950ies and 1960ies. Professor Gert Gröning and Professor Joachim Wolschke-Bulmahn spent a great part of their scientific lifetime to bring light into this dark history of our professsion. Only few honored that over years, german landscape-architects and even some historians just didn‘t and partially still do not want to know. So, thank you, professor Snyder, for your lecture, we germans still have a lot to learn about this murderess period of our history!
The colonial war was about land, Volk ohne Raum, agrarian land, from poland to ukraine as breadbasket, to russia, and to the Baku-region for Oil. Germany was to become „autark“. Germans were to be Herrenmenschen there, settling the best parts of the region and having the population there as slaves. The Generalplan Ost was lead by agrarians as Konrad Meyer, accompanied by Landscape-architects to create a landscape where germans can feel at home in so called Wehrlandschaften. Ukraine had the best soil, so it was a main goal.
Poland has a tradition in Littlerussia. But the "Ukraine" of today is MORE. Catherine II and Richelieu.
All the issues posed in this video are interesting. Unfortunately, the answers are inadequate.
To me the tragedy is that NATO was not empowered to leap in and cut Russia off early in the game so an entire nation, it’s infrastructure, it’s people and it’s economy would not have been devastated and face years of reconstruction and national grief and hatred related to Putin/Russia. Putin’s ambitions are so nakedly criminal and monstrous no horror film could even begin to match his depravity and blatant disregard.
you are making an assumption - about not being empowered - there is no real evidence of that - the simple fact is - it is not at all a matter of empowerment . The trick is not quickly triggering world war 3 - along with the WMD that go with it. those are not something to approach casually at least I am glad they are not .
To me the tragedy is the West broke their promises and expanded NATO, thus making this war absolutely inevitable (and the Ukrainian fascist engineering of the coup of the democratically elected government didn't help either--Jan. 6--eat your heart out!)
Guy is a Zen master!
David. E. Murphy, “what Stalin knew : the mystery of Barbarossa” (2005) mention that Hitler moved 2 Panzer divisions from Moscow to Kiev to deprive Stalin of Ukrainian and Azerbaijani resources and, presumably, gain them for himself. Jim
Generalplan Ost, but what is "the Ukraine"?
Snyder never talks about 1922 and Lenin who did put two countries, Littlerussia and Newrussia, into one. Two countries that had nothing in common. THIS is the problem and not the history of Lwow.
Usually we speak about the victory of the Soviet people. I've never heard about victory of only the Russians.
But in Germany we do. Maybe we don't talk about victory of Soviet Union explicitly, we talk about guilt towards yeah Russians(!). We don't talk about how many Ukrainians, Belarussians or Kazakhs died during WWII. By the way we don't talk about Kazakh causalties at all which is not fair to say the least.
@@valentinann7823 i think that is some kind of generalization. In Russia there are more than 190 nationalities ( more were in the Soviet Union -). then, in English, for example, the word 'Russian' has different meanings (1- nationality,2- citizenship). That means that all the people in my country are Russians (the Russians) by citizenship, but it doesn't mean at all that they are Russian by nationality. and honestly, I think that some sort of misunderstanding when we communicate,kind of difficulty of translation.
@@alenamerkulova1520 I didn't mean to offend you. I thought you replied to what Tim Snyder said about German memory culture. When Germans speak about Russians we mean all Rus. citizens. What bothers me is that when Ger. politicians speak about Soviet Union in context of world war 2 they don't mention former Soviet republics such as Ukraine and so.
@@valentinann7823 no, you don't offend me. I really don't understand why in your culture you use the Russians (regarding WW2), instead of the Soviet people. And I have tried to explain what the reasons might have been for that.
Germans always had a superficial view of the world
After 1917 there was a "bread peace" with some entity in Ukraine. That did not last very long.
The German memory of the Holocaust, as Synder calls it, or the persecution of the Jews in Germany is diverse and not centered on Auschwitz! But is rooted in local rituals (memory of the boycott of Jewish businesses - April 1, the book burnings, the destruction of synagogues - November 9, the deportation of individuals - "Stolpersteine", etc.)
I think he is actually thinking of the American memory of the Holocaust. It tends to be Auscwitz centered, because that's where almost all of the survivors who moved to the US post war were imprisoned.
In German history school books there is no mention of Ukraine at all.
@@oleksandra440 Have you counted the number of years in history in which "Ukraine" is the official name of a nation state or even a territory?
P. S. Let's have a look into the teaching of history in Ukrainian middle schools, nowadays and in the past decades.
@@Namuchat Yes, plenty lot of times, as it is the name of a sovereign state.
Stolpersteine are about deportation, i.e. camps. Closing of Jewish businesses in Germany neglects the majority of Holocaust victims, who are in Eastern Europe and had never been to Germany. So yeah, you're actually demonstrating what Snyder is saying.
I9
Pfffftttt
22:56 - Prof. Snyder is wrong when speaking about 'colonial tradition vis-a-vis Ukraine'. Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth had no colonies and Ukrainian lands were not a colony. It was a part of the country with the same laws. To draw this 'colonial analogy', imagine that a monarch from Mali or Morocco becomes King of France in 15th-16th century or that in the House of Lords in Britain we would have a great overrepresentation of wealthy and influential nobelmen from India.
What you say seems pure unreasoned assertion. At no point does prof. Snyder refer to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. He does refer to Poland since the 1970s. Mali/France and Britain/India are hardly the most appropriate colonial analogies for two neighbouring countries like Poland and Ukraine!
The Polish Lithuanian commonwealth appropriated Ukrainian territory making it a colony or colonies essentially absorb the laws of the colonial power so you are wrong
@@bolldamm3966 Do you mean "Poland since the 17th Century"?
@@pansaltman No, I mean since the 1970s. You can argue about what Poland did or did not do in the 17th, 18th or 19th century, but what prof. Snyder actually says is that "the Poles, since the 1970s […] have actually had a long conversation about Polish colonialism in Ukraine. That conversation has actually happened. It hasn't always been smooth. Very often it's frustrating. But they have had that conversation. And I would suggest that without that conversation, their policy towards Ukraine would probably be less generous than it is now."
@@bolldamm3966 Now, I see, However, this "conversation" is far from being completed. It is now in the shadow of the more urgent problems. I hope this will enable to achieve some reconcilliation in the future, after the war.
He is off that awful medicine finally. Isn't it nice to be able to perform minor semi voluntary muscle actions without needing to muster up a conscious plan of coordination? No more gulp.
Tim "Mickey Mouse" Snyder.
It’s such a shame that someone is well-meaning open minded intelligent and creative as Tim Snyder needs to waste his time with this kind of a group of stupid defensive people
Give the US back to the Indians. What is Russian colonialism? What is fashism anyway...? A word.
Related to death. The national anthem of Ukraine. The word is useless.
Hear Prof. Mearsheimer for a more
realistic view in Ukraine-war. Most non- Western people in the world
look at ukraine-war like Prof.
Mearsheimer....think about it !
what exactly are non -western people ? do you mean American ? then say American it is really hard to even consider what you mean with that description
@@pjpredhomme7699the West=Western people = Nato + Japan usw = USA + his allies ;
Non Western people = the world minus the West = how many billions ?
Mearsheimer? The clown that has absolutely no idea about Ukraine and speaks in terms like he's playing an RTS? No, thanks :D
Most "non-Western" (whatever you mean by that) people should update their knowledge and stop believing the perpetrator's (russia) lies about Ukraine.
@@azazamat Clown= Zelensky and you are his 4 year old son, thats why you don't know history .....but school will come to learn!
@@pjpredhomme7699 think about it:
big -. non-big; truth. -. non- truth;....
Snyder is more interested in his political agenda than in historical accuracy. Just check out the numerous gross errors in his book "Bloodlands" (mostly about Germany)