POOR THINGS vs Puritans (Or, We Need to Talk About the Children...)
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- čas přidán 11. 09. 2024
- As unbelievable as it sounds, the internet watched one of the best films of the year and not only completely missed the mark on what it's even about, but also whipped up a good ole fashioned "tHiNk oF ThE cHiLdReN" moral panic about it too.
Here's why the puritans are dumb and wrong about Poor Things.
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Bella says at the end that men seemed to prefer her better when she had the mind of a child. That was the point. Essentially it is a critique on how men view women and relationships.
This movie was INMENSELY racist against Latinos.
I guess you support that huh.
But Lanthimos is not speaking against the male desire for child minded women here. He's playing it out for his fantasies and that of the male audience. Tarantino shows his proclivities for feet in his films. What does Lanthimos show? He repeatedly shows sadism. Violence and sadistic cruelty to animals and people. The sadism of POOR THINGS is Lanthimos calling all women to see a film of a self determined Bella free herself from patriarchy and sexual exploitation, just so he can shove down their throats, the most gratuitous sexual exploitation of Emma. The double standards are no different than sexploitation films of the past. I think Lanthimos is a covert redpill misogynist. It's their typical passive aggression
But was this the only way to show it? I don’t think you have to be a media illiterate puritanical fascist to think this was a pedophilic portrayal of the content.
strangely no like on this comment 🤔
That may have been the coarsely added and very brief point that drew Emma to take part in the project, but the mass of the film simply exploited her sexually for the consumption of the director and his male audience. There are major conflicts with this film. It's like the director wanted to make an old school sexploitation film but with today's feminist climate, he had to manever, shove some feminist messaging in it sonewhere, and market it it as progressive, to get away with his true vision. The ultimate vision being - What makes my peen happy?
A line I'm surprised you never mentioned, one that directly summarizes the theme of the movie and feeds into your take, is with the grand madame of the brothel talking to Bella. "We must experience everything, not just the good but degradation, horror, sadness, this makes us whole Bella. This makes us people of substance, not flighty untouched children. And we can know the world. And when we know the world, the world is ours.". This is something I think a lot of the discourse ignores. Sometimes, you have to have unpleasant and uncomfortable experiences to learn about yourself when you're in a situation the world never prepared you for. And even then, not every human experience can be precisely demonstrated in a way that emphasizes safety above all else. I kind you not, I once came across a comment thread where someone was arguing Steve Carell's character in the 40 Year Old Virgin could not consent to sex since it seemed he lacked basic information (like properly applying a condom). Yeah, he should have been informed but he wasn't, and that line of thinking just results in permanent infantilization and condemnation of him, you know, trying to change that. Making mistakes is as important a tool in education as proper information.
Yeah I did want to incorporate that quote, and a lot of the stuff in the latter half of the film (the brothel, the general, etc) in general, but this video would’ve been an hour long 😅 I’mma talk about a lot of it on my postpartum stream this week (as well as in my upcoming second Sade video :D) but you’re 100% right
This is so true! AND the movie itself is one of those uncomfortable experiences but the great thing about fiction is you can confront the discomfort and its fiction! It didn't actually happen! So you are lot more safer to actually experience and tackle your discomfort! This is something I learnt from Vivian's Salo video and Contrapoints' Twilight video haha
I’m immensely flattered for my work to be mentioned in the same sentence as ContraPoints’ 🥰 but yes, you’re totally right!
Not sure I'm articulating this well, but I read that as a way for the grande madame to manipulate Bella's desire for knowledge/experience to keep her entrapped in her service. Big Joel made a recent video essay about the short story Omelas, which explores the idea of utopia - he reads the text as an argument against the necessity of suffering, which is a fallacy under capitalism. I think that applies here within the context of the film and Bella's interest in socialist ideas
@@ciaolife I can see where that reading comes from, but I don’t really subscribe to it just because in the actual scene, the line of reasoning with that line is almost completely removed from the issue with the baby. All she really needed to convince Bella to stay in service was the little trolley problem trap. I think the speech about experience is part of what she genuinely believed and is part of the movie’s thesis.
Bella is a child in the same way the teens of Riverdale are minors: Not really.
For most of the film Bella does not act like a child. The "baby brain in an adult body" is just a device to give us a naive earnest protagonist to guide us through the movie, in the same way Riverdale characters are teemagers is just a device to give us characters without adult responsibilities and free time to get into wacky adventures. Riverdale teens act like miniature adults in every respect except holding down a job and paying rent.
OMG yes! teenagers in MEDIA =/= teenagers IRL. It's fiction! Fiction!
i do wonder why they didnt just do an amnesia plot device if thats what they were going for
@@32kuba32 An amnesia plot wouldn't have worked. The original mind would still be beneath the surface, and its simply not phantastical enough, archaic spelling intended. The novel was conceived to play with tropes invented by Mary Shelley and other Gothic writers, a dialogue with other writers across time, and while there are interesting amnesia tropes in literature, they have other trajectories.
@@catlulu00 Agreed. How about Rory Gilmore? She was 25 when she was 15.
She absolutely does act like a child. And even if referred to as a toddler and a baby by people working on the film.
Watched Poor Things recently (with my mom of all people which was…uncomfortable) and I ALSO interpreted it as essentially a Bildungsroman coming of age type story. I felt like while Bella’s sexual journey is focused on, there’s also a lot of emphasis put on her PHILOSOPHICAL development, understanding ideas and concepts which have yet to be explained to her. I related to her journey a lot actually, especially her intense curiosity and desire to experience everything.
Yes! This film very much reads to me as a work of philosophical fiction. Most of it is just people talking about society and ideas and all the stuff I find super interesting :D and I love movies like that
as do i!@@vivianstrange
except they literally never deep dive into her philosophically and they just pass over extremely important moments of realization. the ending is completely different in the book, so much so that it changes the story. it would be comparable to if Neo never woke up from the Matrix, that is how big of a plot point was left out. this movie is a cismans reinterpretation of femme's suffering through a fetishistic lens.
i'll be honest, i wasn't mad at the sex scenes or sex work in poor things, more of the ways that mark ruffalo's character seemed to be attracted to the childish aspects of bella as a character. i love the progression of how she is given books by harry and martha and ultimately realises that he is an idiot and grows more as a character. thank you for this brilliant take on the movie - it's given me much to think about.
Oh yes, Duncan is utterly contemptible, he’s practically a caricature, and I loveloveLOVE how pathetic the text makes him out to be 😂
He wasn’t attracted to her because of her childish aspects, he was attracted to her nativity and how easily he could manipulate her.
I know that sounds like semantics, but Duncan was too dumb to see her as anything other than an attractive adult woman who was cognitively impaired.
Tbh, I think Bella knew from the beginning how much he's an idiot. She just accepted from him what she wanted, world travel, sex and introduction in society, without falling for his BS. Somehow I feel she conned the con: or even better, she let Duncan con himself.
Not Mark's EVERY character. Which is pretty absurd by the way.
@@mihaelabiolan819 Nah, the text created a character rarely exists in the real world. That's all.
The one thing i will say is that i found her behaviors early in the movie to be SO ENDEARING. Just a grown woman PLAYING and being JOYFUL for no other reason than the pursuit of such.
FBI ALERT
Can't believe this is the first time I'm witnessing somebody doing a proper reading of the best film of the year. God, I love this.
Why sleep on Kadija's video?
@@kostajovanovic3711so glad I saw this comment. I was scared to watch because I loved the film so much and I love them😭
Yes!!!!!
For me women's sexual liberation as written by man is just.... It's not new to me. I feel like when men discover feminism the first thing they're able to access is our sexuality. It's all we've been to them, so naturally that's the first part they notice, and then honestly... It's often where they stop. It's just a more robust view of the same thing. It's good, it's just not sensational like everyone thinks it is. It's a baby step at most. I think Emma Stone's hand in the project improved it, but I did not feel like I was watching new ground being broken.
Okay! I thought I was wrong in the sense that I didn't think the film was PDF-filic but was meant to be like this uncomfortable discovery of self-liberation as a woman. I was that person and felt very seen by the movie.
you and me both! I related to Bella SO HARD
There is no way a man that isn't "that" falls for the baby Bella. Literally no way you can't stand her for like 5 seconds, let alone "love her".
In the movie every man loves her... for no reason. Mark Ruffalo's characters doesn't and falls for her... for no reason. She also doesn't really feel pain, apparently.... for no reaon.
The amount of awful takes I’ve seen on this movie… it’s like they watched the movie like ben Shapiro watched barbie, furiously scribbling notes instead of trying to understand it
It's not as deep as yo think it is.
I haven't seen Poor Things yet because I had it on my list of "movies that look interesting but might be too much for my mental state right now" and I have to say this video gives me the impression I should move it up on my list of things to watch.
Great analysis. But I also think that even without this understanding, people watching Poor Things should have been able to trust the filmmaker enough to accept that they're going to be uncomfortable sometimes, because that's what great art quite often does. Poor Things is so overwhelmingly beautiful that reducing one's reaction to "eww it's sexually immoral" says a lot more about that viewer than about the film. It's ok, let yourself be uncomfortable, just take it in and live with it for awhile.
On the other hand, I keep feeling that Lanthimos wants, or at least anticipates, negative reactions, because part of what Poor Things is saying is that our standard, normal, "civilized" understandings are extremely inhuman - they are anti-human. The same learned impulse to keep sexual desire under tight control is also the impulse that allows us to know about the poor and suffering and respond without compassion. Bella can't do that. Despite being a "monster" she's the most human character in the film.
This isn't great art. This is child rape. You need your computer searched.
Wait what? Sexuallity and "the poor" ? How do you relate the two lol?
Emma Stone's Oscar was well-earned.
I would have been glad if her or Lily won (though tbh I was rooting for Sandra Huller!). Not disappointed at all in the outcome.
(and Lily Gladstone should already have an Oscar from Certain Women but I digress)
Fair assessment!
@@looney1023watch Lily Gladstone in fancy dance, it’s coming out this year! Genuinely her best performance imo and she’d deserve to win for that
Great video. It always shocks me the see the "left" shaming women's sexuality and doing the "what about the children" when Emma Stone is 35 thing.
why are we defending elites and when have we ever thought people in hollywood had good takes on this... especially pedophilia which is quite rampant there?
Pretty sure nobody cares about Emma Stone doing whatever she wants...
@@edgardoMurnia I have seen people infantilizing her and implying she is being exploited (in this film). And I've seen people call this film pedophilic, I don't think they believe it themselves but I have seen it.
@@user-pq4fc1mc7q Calling the film anything has nothing to do with Emma Stone.
And Implying that because she's 35 she couldn't possibly be exploited... it's weird. I do not think she was, personally, but her being 35 doesn't mean anything.
@@edgardoMurnia Yes it does because they're calling it that because they are saying she's playing a literal baby. As if she's just in diapers drooling for the entire runtime. And not a full grown adult.
Of course a 35 year old person can be exploited, I never implied otherwise. I think ignoring what she has to say about her own experience, is infantilizing her. You can see how topical this film is.
Framing the other side of the debate as wrong/stupid isn't what this film needs. It's a highly interpretable piece and there are many legitimate reasons to criticize the film and sex trade too, and painting it all as prudishness is childish. Bella was lusted after when her brain development was that of a prepubescent. She was bubble-blowing while an adult touched her private parts. The book's parts from Bella's husband's narration are impactfully disturbing. The film fails as an adaptation in a lot of ways, and its commentary is toothless. Dogtooth is a very popular work too and that didn't cause what you'd call a "moral panic". Sometimes male filmmakers just miss the mark when depicting female sexuality.
Well first off, the movie really doesn't show the passage of time well. Because Bella does not grow like a normal child I assumed she was around 7 to 10 years old. She's in the body of an adult so would likely have had adult desires from the start because of hormones.
Additionally, someone wanting sex is irrelevant when there's such a large power gap. If not pedophilia or outright rape it at least feels like exploitation of the mentally ill. Now while I see no problem showing such things if there's a point to be made, the movie doesnt really call attention to the questionable relationship.
The way the film shows the passage of time is not specific, true, but you assuming how “old” she is is just missing the point. You’re taking it far too literally.
Also, not quite entirely sure you fully understand what consent is
@@vivianstrange She understands what consent is. You seem to not understand that there are scenarios where a person would be unable to give consent. She's groped while blowing bubbles like a child (oh but she giggles, that makes it fine). When she leaves, she's a rebellious teen who's fascinated by the first douchebag that came her way. Please go read the book where the passage of time is much clearer. You've missed the clues that are there in the film about her age. Through a character with an adult body but a child's mind, the focus of the narrative could be solely on the mental power imbalance between adults and children.
I knew you’d have the most sane take on this stupid discourse. Love your work!
Aaaaah, the joy of finally hearing a good take on Poor Things! Thank you, Vivian!
Thank you so much, especially for the accurate definition of Poor Things as first and foremost a coming of age story. It baffles me the ease with which the point was missed, all in the name of “political correctness”. This generation is very moralist while perceiving those views as enlightening and it’s quite distressing
I had no clue people were misinterpreting this movie that bad, thanks for the video, I had pretty much the same interpretation though you brought up some stuff that went under my nose.
I was a purist/hater about it 😅 (I was triggered and took it too literally on my first watch) till I saw Khadija’s video on it, and your sex scenes video: “Your discomfort is your responsibility.”
I’m glad to hear that :) you mean Khadija Mbowe? I didn’t know they did a video on it! :O
"Your discomfort is your responsibility" could justify a lot of nefarious things in life, couldn't it?
@@dr.emilschaffhausen4683 i mean, that could be said about a lot of phrases when you take them out of context
i dont think thats a good mantra to have! 😀
this entire video essay a, “she’s mature for her age” LMAOOOO
I watched Poor Things last night and I absolutely fell in love with the movie. I’m glad this is the first video I watch about it after thinking about it for myself.
I wasn’t sure whether I wanted to see this movie, but you’ve definitely convinced me. This is why I watch takes on media I’m ambiambivalent about by creators I respect. I don’t always agree with you, but your perspectives tend to broaden mine
That makes me happy ^_^ that’s what I try to go for
I have to be honest, I was appalled by a lot of the scenes. And I still think the critique is valid, because I dont believe a child can consent to s*x w old men. And i wish the movie would’ve discussed and explored how she was abused more. Because although it is acknowledged, little is done w that. And again the scene w the poor was also just a small glimpse of the film, it did not really explore much on it further. Yes child exploitation was at the center of the film, but it really lacked class-, race etc commentary. And that’s why i personally think it focused too much on the s*x scenes rather than working w the material it has layed out in many scenes. The socialist aspects were really kind of ignored. It felt like a lot of the film was just a storyboard and the way it was wrapped up was just empty, devoid of any conclusion or commentary in the end. In my opinion, that’s why it came off as a very much empty take on feminism and child exploitation. It lacked the necessary intricacy and thus came off as male gazey and focused on s*x, in the end it was feminism from a male lens w little perspective and complexity to me.
@@oatcycvx7454 well first of all I never said men can’t be feminists or understand a women’s perspective? In fact, I think they absolutely can if they are willing to change and understand and reflect. That is not what I meant with male gazey. I meant that it is very much doing what it’s criticizing, the objectification of women. Because the lens, through which we see the movie, really is objectifying Bella in a way. The topic isn’t handled with any nuance or complexity. Furthermore the fact that it tried to be disturbing, shocking and “feminist” is the reason why it fell flat because it was anything but that. That’s also why I’m criticizing the movie for not going any deeper with the class struggle or intersectionalities of women that make their life harder in this “cruel world”. And that’s precisely why I don’t like the ending. The message of “empowerment” is so flat. Of course empowerment is good, but the way it’s portrayed in the film is honestly really simple and lazy. It’s the type of “girl boss” liberal feminism that thinks turning one abusive man into a goat will turnover all these oppressive systems and that’s it. I know that the movie didn’t imply that everything was solved in the end, but they could’ve at least shown more and done more. I don’t despise the movie but I find that it’s really lacking depth, especially the ending.
@@idkwho9785 That makes more sense, I guess there was a bit a confusion on where you were coming from for me. I agree that it is kind of a redid "girl boss" trope and that there is definitely improvements that could be made. I still think that the reason why they objectify Bella is to really show that women are objected in real life, so in that sense yes they are doing what they are criticizing. Looking back, I do think there was objectification where it shouldn't be.. such as some of the pointless nude scenes and the excessive extent of s*x scenes. The s*x scenes weren't an amazing way to show the complexity of the problem, but I do think they still show struggles that women can go through. It still 100% could have been more complex like u said, I would have preferred that myself too lol. In total I think I understand where you are coming from now more than before, and I agree that it could have had more meaningful perspectives rather than promiscuity. Thank u for the further explanation.
Sorry for my English I am french.
It is very clearly explained that Bella grew up differently and very quickly in the film.
For me she was undoubtedly at the stage of adolescence, young adult at the time of these first sexual relations with Marc Rufallo.
I didn't feel any coercion or lack of consent from her. She seems to enjoy sex with him as naturally and healthily as possible.
Besides, he is the more stupid and immature of the two and when she is tired of him she expresses it clearly and does not let herself be manipulated which drives him crazy lol
This relationship which could have been toxic shows us a young woman who leaves no point of influence to this man and she calmly ends the relationship when she no longer finds her interest in it.
She does not have this straitjacket of Judeo-Christian puritanism because God raised her free-spirited. Despite a lack of experience and a certain form of adorable naivety, she is extremely intelligent, calm, collected and rational.
She does not show the slightest sign of regret, fear or distress at any point in the film even during her period of prostitution except the scene where she sees dying babies.
Bella is in a position of victim and confinement by all the men she meets but she is not afraid of any of them.
She only takes what she needs and ends up always being free in her choices.
@@tamara4591 yeah and you exactly pointed out the problem I have with the film. That being that fact that she is portrayed as this girlboss who very quickly learns and becomes independent and smart but completely ignoring the fact that she is in fact still a child at one point and children cannot consent to s*x with adults. Even if she didn’t show regret or wasn’t against the s*x, because she is a child she isn’t able to fully grasp the fact that an old man is abusing her. Of course she later realizes that but it’s literally never explored. The horrifying effect of that is never discussed. It’s a very much liberal point of view to think that she is free in all of her choices because she girlbosses her way through life and is independent. I personally do not subscribe to that and find that the movie lacks the intricacy discussing the systemic issues at play. I’m all for s*x education and I didn’t hate the movie. I just thought it was sometimes handled carelessly. Especially because of how important s*x education is to prevent s*xual abuse. I think it didn’t do a good job at showing that in a nuanced or meaningful way though.
I don't think you read me correctly so again.....
It is very clearly explained that Bella grew up differently and very quickly in the film.
For me she was undoubtedly at the stage of adolescence, young adult at the time of these first sexual relations with Marc ruffallo.
So I don't understand your comment because she's not a child anymore when she left ....
This was a very interesting video I got sent to by a friend. I agree with some of the points, but the one point I HEAVILY don’t agree with is 24:37. One thing I’m tired of in the discourse of this movie, and in many discourses for movies in general, is the lack of nuance. YES abstinence only education isn’t beneficial for children, but a father having sex in front of his sons in order to “educate them” is child sexual abuse. Period. If he wanted to educate them, why not provide them with a book instead?
That’s kind of my other dislike of this film. In the book the film is based off of, Bella was educated on literature, sex, etc BEFORE she left home. The films decision to remove this is definitely a choice. She called sex “ferocious jumping”, which in real life, we’d consider a person who doesn’t know these words mentally mature enough for sex.
Ultimately, I agree with most of your points, but I feel we REALLY can’t overlook these really important plot points.
I forced my parents to watch "Dogtooth" when it came out. Yeah, poor things, they did not get the allusion..
Well done *tips hat*
I hated everything about this movie.
First Yorgos Lanthimos movie?
9:00 oh thank god someone gets it, honestly so many takes about this movie made me want to staple "depiction is not endorsement" to people's heads and teach them how to actually analyze movies.
18:59 YES EXACTLY, POOR THINGS IS LIKE A SPIRITUAL SUCCESSOR TO DOGTOOTH, they're both what happens when people control information from others to gain a sense of power and what that does to the human brain, Dogtooth is just like 10x more bleak
thank you for this, i knew you'd be one of the few who got it, honestly so much of "criticism" and "discourse" about this movie just stems from people that have never seen another Lanthimos movie and don't get the world and tone he operates in. but anyway, thank you for this. i was gonna post a link to my letterboxd review of this for more discussion about the movie but CZcams spam filters are working too hard so if anyone's interested, the letterboxd is JamesIsTired.
In much the same way that Cuties depicts young girls being sexualized but doesn’t endorse young girls being sexualized?
I was in the fence about whether I wanted to watch Poor Things or not, but with your endorsement I definitely will. It sounds smart.
good lord, thank you for this video. the moral panic over this film has been insufferable, so it's a blessed relief to see someone else actually engaging with it as a piece of art.
I mostly agree but I do be disagreeing with your take on it being okay for them to do “sex ed” that way lol that’s fucked up imo
I agree
in your opinion? Lol.
@@edgardoMurnia look, I don’t have a PhD in early childhood development or sex ed here my guy I’m willing to leave room for the idea that my gut reaction of “ick” is not a fact or based on any rigorous study lol
@@RattlesnakeJakey A rigorous study of childs learning sexuality by literally watching their parents doing it?
Are you seriously saying that you would consider that as an option? Please do not have kids.
There are so many people on TikTok who are mad at Yorgos because Emma shaved for this movie (because of the implications!), but none of them seem to notice Ramy Youssef’s accent in the same film.
Also like zero characters in the movie are attracted to her “child like qualities,” they just see her as dumb and easy to take advantage of (which is still not good!)
What do you mean "shaved"? Like... her legs? What are the implications of that? And what does Ramy Youssef's accent have to do with anything??
I'm so confused! 😟
@@ahobimo732 people on TikTok are very upset that Emma Stone shaved her pubic hair for this movie, because it reinforces patriarchal beauty standards and because it backs up this misinformed belief (as Vivian combats in this video) that the movie is purposefully filled with men being attracted to her “child like qualities.”
My point with bringing up the accent is that this belief also means that Yorgos had such levels of control and attention to detail that he forced Emma Stone to do this (he did not), but did not notice the fact Ramy Youssef’s horrible British accent (I love him in this movie).
Love this review. The reaction to this film honestly reminded me of the heat shows like Clearance or Apple and Onion got for having neurodivergent characters be themselves.
Thanks! From a broken little boy who cannot stand the pain of the world, who recognizes his own shortcomings and makes sincere efforts to improve himself and others so that the world may become a better one for all.
Omg thank you so much 🥹 this made my whole week
Thank you thank you for so beautifully putting into words what I have been feeling about this film! I really appreciate your work and this was another great video 💐💖
I have my disagreements with your reading, but honestly I’m just thankful to have a competent discussion of this film
I'm so happy you made a video about this film. Absolutely loved it!
i disagree with a lot of ur points but there are some things that i am reconsidering after watching this (esp. her language and seeing the movie as a whole more allegorical). still i do think that the way it was shot a lot of the sex scenes feel made for the male gaze of viewers and i assume the director. also max mccandles is an irredeemable character and i feel the hypocrisy of how the movie ends his story vs duncan never sat right with me at all. thats bcs max was as mature when he met bella as in the ending. this is maybe a problem from the book as hes the main character there. esp then i tjink it reflects the authors view on emancipation and growth. Bella has this wonderful journey while max only growth seems to be that hes fine with ethical nonmomogamy! also i think the movies inclusion of socialism was Poor(haha)ly done. we see absolutely no followup on it. shes just eating grapes with her gf and boytoy at the end (which sounds nice but whats with the starbing babies in alexandria. Nevermind the movie forgot about them and so will the audience )
I’mma be going into this on my Poor Things stream tomorrow, so stay tuned!
The scene with the dad and his sons reminded me so much of Monty Python’s Meaning of Life Sex Education scene. I haven’t read the book, so I was curious if this scene was supposed to be a reference to that. Either way, I agree with your reading! It’s an awkward scene, but definitely absurdly funny and strangely charming
OMG that’s right!! I knew it reminded me of something but I couldn’t think of exactly what it was xD thank you hahaha
LOL you’re welcome!
Fantastic video essay btw :)
Thank you, I was actually going crazy from all of the bad discourse surrounding this movie.
One thing that bugs me about the criticism of this film is that it seems to imply that telling stories about bad things is somehow bad in and of itself. Among other things, this film is looking at the male desire to control and exploit young women, which is something that NEEDS to be talked about and most films don't even try.
Films like Larry Clark's Kids exist, but they are often exploitative or involve young actors. For any merits those films have, they still have a degree of exploitation that undercuts the point they're making.
Poor Things is able to tackle child exploitation with no children being exploited. Emma Stone is an adult woman, above the age of consent (and not even like early to mid 20s; she's been old enough to consent for almost half her life), who produced the film and has said nothing but positive things about the experience making it. All of the nudity is that of consenting adults, in an R rated film made by adults for adults. And yet under these ethically ideal, safe, controlled circumstances, we're STILL not allowed to talk about child exploitation? Is it only ever okay to talk about it in the context of real children who were exploited? That seems too late...
You’re 100% right omg
Well said 👍
@@vivianstrange Loved your video btw! This and May December were my favorite movies of the past year, and I feel both of them have been unfairly scrutinized in similar ways (and low key made me embarrassed to admit they're my favorite films of the year at risk of being called a pedo supporter or some B.S.). Also loved your take on the title, and on the sex education scene (which I didn't even realize is kind of exactly what I was talking about; the ability to discuss sensitive issues frankly in a safe and controlled environment as opposed to repressing the conversation until it's too late).
No need to respond since your video doesn't really cover the book, but I was curious your thoughts about the adaptation removing the epilogue where "the real" Bella Baxter disputes the rest of the story (which is told by Candle). Detractors of the film like to use that as a gotcha, as in "the director/writer didn't understand that the book was written from the perspective of a misogynist, and therefore it misses the point completely". I definitely disagree, but I have a hard time articulating why aside from "that works better on the page and the film is still examining misogyny but from a different perspective." Wondering if you have an opinion on that particular aspect of it/adaptation choice?
Okay, yeah, you’ve convinced me. I think I do have some Puritanism that might come from being a parent of a young child, and tiredness with the “born sexy yesterday” trope, and I didn’t really assess how Bella was actually showing signs that she was as mature as a teenager who would naturally want to have a sexual relationship.
Also, I think I personally associate the face with sexuality much more than most people do, and I associate the body less than most people do, so it didn’t occur to me that, as you clearly show, the sex scenes are not sexualizing Bella, they are centering her emotions.
Good video, thank you.
We all have some puritanism ingrained in us thanks to capitalism colonialism and Christianity, but thankfully it’s something we can unlearn if we work on it :) and you’re so right about the rest
spraying cats with a water bottle is so mean......
It is literally the only kind of discipline my cats experience. Trust me, they’re spoiled as HELL
Agreed! It doesn't actually teach them anything but fear :\
A big-big thank you for your video, I was really confused seeing all this backlash on this movie completely not understanding its themes and Bella’s character.
Thank you for such an eloquent defense of a brilliant film. I am a lifelong passionate feminist, and very much against sexual exploitation. I admit this film made me uncomfortable in many parts, but I also recognized the genius at work in both the novel and the film. Art should make you uncomfortable, ask questions. It should afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted, and by that standard Poor Things is a masterpiece.
What question did the movie make you ask yourself?
I thought this video was adorable. Glad to see you breaking down all the nonsense and getting to the heart of the matter. You're so good at that. And I'm so tired of moral panics. Young progressives who act like old conservatives baffle me.
Thank you for knowing how to read and evaluate ART!!!
I appreciate the analysis of Bella's growth and agency. For me personally, the film did not do much. I was interested in the beginning, but got increasingly bored since her development kept focusing on sex. Idk maybe I am too asexual for this, but how much time do we need to spent an establishing that sex is something that can be pleasurable, that Bella enjoys. Or that it can be transactional and sometimes uncomfortable, when we got to the brothel. I would have loved to see her explore other parts of life in more detail. I also was very miffed that at the end of the movie, the stand-in for her "adventures spirit" was her clitoris, and that without it she would loose that spirit.
yes!! i'm so tired of both sides of the discourse saying "aaaugh if you're unconfortable that's your fault for being a prude" as of everyone kept saying it, when idk if it was just me, but i didn't see that many comments about that. I saw a lot more comments about Max and how he's rewarded with keeping Bella as his partner, taking into account it IS weird that in the start he was willing to marry someone with a child's brain, and also that the movie themes felt superficial. I don't like the counter-analysis to 'amount of time spent on sex scenes could have been spent on other parts of her philosophical journey' equating to 'ya'll need to chill about sex' when yeah some viewers might say that but a majority? idk
Thank you so much for this video and your insight. You expressed so many of the things I was feeling and thinking about Poor Things in a way that's so much clearer than I ever could have.
I'm very glad to have found you and your channel and look forward to watching more of your work.
aaaaahhh i’ve been waiting so long for ms.vivian to tell me how to feel about this movie
I know talking about media literacy is trite now, but that's only because the lack of it has been an issue for years, and it's only getting worse. People don't need things spoonfed to them any more, they need a fucking feeding tube
Finally youtube recomended me a good video on Poor Things❤
Yeah. I’ve understood a lot of movies and have lived 40 years with disabilities. I didn’t like it. Honest take.
That’s totally fair! It’s not everyone’s cuppa tea :)
Thank allah i dont have a twtr acc because seeing these takes would’ve pissed me awff…
The end of your video was the part of the movie that I wanted most analysis on 😂 honestly I felt like here was something very real about seeing Bella as a white woman reacting to suffering by grabbing the money and giving it away. Because it is subversive, Bella has access to money and uses that access to give it away, Bella understands that they need money and the value of money as an oppressive force for the first time (all along she has been provided for, even when we see her explore the city we don't see her once pay for anything), and at the same time collapsing in bed in the most white woman way possible. Even at the brothel, where the black comrade only shares pamphlets and stays quiet, Bella is the one who, having come from access and education and validation, almost from the very first moment demands conditions to change in a way that is more beneficial to both parties; while the other comrades, both black and white, remain silent. Yes, the sex was shocking, and every creaming their pants for Bella was annoying, but I was most interested in Bella as an outsider and insider to money, privilege, etc. it was a very interesting aspect of the movie to me.
Y’know, I actually have a lot to say about this, cause you’re right, and this aspect of the film was actually the most interesting to me too! I think I’mma do a postpartum stream this week to elaborate and talk more about it :)
For as much the sex scenes are very lively. So much of the movie opens up when Belle discovers good conversations & books can stimulating like if not better then sex.
Almost suddenly gets hit with harsh realities of being on the wrong end capitalist society.
The character I liked the most was Jarrod Carmichael played.
I liked that he told Belle the truth & then I felt bad becuz it wasn’t to better situation.
being cruel hurtful to someone just to spite them & make yourself look better is wrong.
Actually that seemed to be super reactionary... Like "see? Giving the poor money you steal from the ones that has it is childish, stupid and solves nothing".
I can't even conceive another interpretation
I didn’t mind the sex, movies are becoming annoyingly sexless. I guess I didn’t take the baby brain thing as seriously as everyone else. These things didn’t bother me.
I just ended up bored by the end. She doesn’t get changed by her experiences. She gets out of every difficult situation so easily that the tension slowly drains out of the movie well before the ending.
Somehow she ends up with no sexually transmitted infection… ok. Then her evil ex husband just straight up tells her what he is going to do. She cares about poor people for all of two seconds before she is simply over it.
She is a rich girl who can call her dad and go home whenever she pleases. In the end she just becomes her dad.
It was beautiful, absurd, the script is wonderfully surprising and truly funny at moments. But once all that wears off I simply didn’t care anymore because she never really becomes human.
She feels like an android barely affected by what she went through. So I ended up feeling barely affected by the movie in the end.
I’mma talk about some of this in my postpartum stream on this video tomorrow :)
@@vivianstrangeUnfortunately I am going to be at work. I wish I could watch.
There is something else bothering me about both Poor Things and Barbie but I find I can’t express it yet.
They are both coming out of innocence and a complete unknowing of the real world.
This is not what is happening. Us women aren’t over here all innocent and unaware of the world, waiting to discover ourselves.
I don’t know how to say it well but the whole arc of these themes feels infantilizing.
Well the stream will remain up if you wanna watch it later :)
Thank you for this! I loved Poor Things so much, and while I understand not everyone will enjoy or even feel comfortable watching this, it felt like they were reducing the film down to the most barest of tropes or subversions of tropes without actually trying to experience the movie at all. Something I felt when I was watching it myself was that, despite the very clear themes of men trying to control and possess Bella and becoming increasingly frustrated when she evolves out of their reach, Bella is never really put in a....victimized position, in a sense? She wants to experience life and humanity the same way her father conducts science experiments, and everything, including the bad or boring stuff, is a new and interesting study for her and once she's over it, she moves on. Once she loses interest in sleeping with Duncan, for example, he doesn't get to touch her again. The one man who truly attempts to control Bella to the point of violence is the General, and he is quickly and severely punished for it.
Also.....I'm sorry, but people crying about the baby brain thing sound so ridiculous considering that like 5 minutes into the movie, we see goofy ass animal splices like the duck torso on the dog body, etc. etc. Like that should be the first sign that this movie isn't being THAT serious. Or are they gonna start screaming about animal abuse too?
Exactly! She’s never in that victimized position, and the way she talks to the general illustrates this. “I am flattered by your attempt to control me, many have tried, but I will come and go at my leisure.” I love it when female characters are allowed to exist in stories like this on their own terms
Oh, God is a fucking incredibile parent! Considering also the fact he was grown up by an actual abusive father, him breaking the cycle and being successfully nurturing and empathetic is such a win
Oh yes, and if he had functional penis he would probably fuck her! What a lovely, pure, paternal love indeed. ❤
This has to be said: this movie could have been done better. Period. It was triggering and I don’t lack the desire to see nuanced sex in film but it’s about the context like in all things. The cuts were deliberately disturbing going from explaining her infant mind in one scene to her getting non-consensually touched in the next. It lacked the real perspective of menstruation and pregnancy and stds for an Afab person and wasn’t explicit enough about the depravity of the men’s desire to control her. It’s just seen as some redeemable quality. It’s entirely from the male gaze and you see that. There are so many ways as we’ve seen to display female and fem sexuality without it being all about men and males and their attraction towards us. I would actually loved to see this film done differently especially after learning about the book and how it did not tell the story in this way. The critiques are not asinine, they are genuine and coming from a place that will ALWAYS critique pedophilia and patriarchy in film. If you didn’t have a problem with the sex scenes, critique the way you may engage with pedophilia already or normalize it.
After listening to your conclusion: how does the movie prove this? It doesn’t emphasize that anywhere else besides that scene in Alexandria.
@@vivianstrange .... not everything is about you babes. the fact that you chose to see all that i said as a bunch of words to call you a pedo is concerning lol. I just came back to this comment to see if you would actually consider the things i said, guess not.
Just how you don't have to be a avid racist to ignore the racism around you, you dont have to be a pedophile to ignore the ways it shows up in our society. not considering how that fact in this western patriarchal society shows up in our film and media is irresponsible in my opinion.
This comment deserves a response from the creator.
You need to talk about the continued misogyny and exploitation of women by male writers and directors. Even progressive ones.
Emma herself has said that she is comfortable with Yorgos and trusts him more than any other director. She also was a producer for the film and agreed on the sexual liberation part of the character.
I’ve been waiting for this since I saw your Letterboxd review
Thanks to the algorithm to suggesting me this video! Great analysis, you have a new subscriber and I’m looking forward to watching more of your content! ✨
best video ive seen on youtube about poor things. You perfectly detailed valid frustrations with a lot of the audiences' discomfort and misdirected claims of problematic material towards the film. Just great. And i draw cartoon titties so I'm especially defensive of sex in media
Victoria is drowned... Long live Bella. This is like a metaphor for the death of Victorian puritanism. Thanks for a proper critique of the film. You completely got it.
“A metaphor for the death of Victorian puritanism” is my favorite description of this movie omgggg
Thank you for this video. I am definitely going to watch more from you. I liked Poor Things, but when I tried to explain it to someone else, they kind of went "ewww".
I hope you enjoy! I have all my media analysis videos in a playlist if that helps :)
I've always hated the puritanical side to are culture especially when it comes to art which is just a reflection of the ideas that already exist within a person or people. You can't defeat something if you dont knoledge it's even there. Dark art takes something that's negative and lets us think about it and sometimes even turn it into a weird kinda positive with things like laughter. Knee jerk reactions can be so frustrating to listen to.
Eh, having had "abstinence only" and self-educated via the internet, I would take that over a demonstration involving a parent. Like, obviously a parent should HAVE CONVERSATIONS about sex, try to destigmatize it, make sure your kid knows they can come to you with questions, but this kind of demonstration... I have vivid memories of dozens of horny fanfics I read while learning about sex. I DO NOT WANT vivid memories of any member of my family having sex. Hope they're getting as much as they want, hope it's good, happy for them, but I will take crappy self-educating over having that burned in my brain, thanks.
Honestly, I feel like the right answer is to hire two people and let them demonstrate and teach together. That sounds like the best of both worlds.
In spite of agreeing with everything you said, I didn't like Poor Things... It bugged me, but it was just mmmmeeah, boring.
woah thanks i havent seen poor things yet and was skeptical
When she first ran off with Duncan, she felt more like a young teen than an adult to me. And I think the knowledge and experience gap between Bella and Duncan created a big power imbalance. That power imbalance is why it was so easy for him to kidnap her.
But by the end of the movie she definitely seems like an adult.
Well yes there may have been a power imbalance, but that isn’t mutually exclusive with the fact that she did very much want it.
Oftentimes we want things that we even know might not be good for us
I honestly can relate to Poor Things so much. I had a phase where I could truly get to explore my sexuality, it was actually quite like what Bella had been through. I got to explore physical pleasure and interact with different people first in an emotionally detached way and then acquire brand new feelings out of these experiences. In the movie these men around Bella might be mesmerized by her, they loved her and hated her, but essentially it had nothing to do with Bella herself, she only wanted to be happy and to see the world. And that really speaks to me, it feels just like how I witnessed men around me respond to my existence but I was too grounded within myself and my own experience lol. And Im very happy there's a movie talking about these things.
That’s great! I experienced much the same thing and I really loved how this movie did that
Honestly, I thought the film was strange, hypersexual, and Duncan is just an ass. It's still an exciting film. The hypersexual of the film is good because she is growing and learning and because she enjoys the freeing nature of pleasure, which honestly is super realistic for most people in the early years of developing their understanding of sex and connection; at least, that is my understanding of the film when it comes to Bella having sex
thank god, someone is speaking out about this, because the discourse about Poor Things has been bugging me so much, since people just simply don't get it, pretending they do
Those bad takes don’t deserve such a thorough response. This review would stand alone without that jumping off point, but if it’s what gave you the energy to write this, then so bit it. The mirrored parallels with Dogtooth are amazing and eye-opening. Thank you!
Thank you for this sensible (level-headed, logical, fair) review. Too many people out there do not get the point. Their moral panic reveals more about their own conservative (old-fashioned, reactionary) beliefs than about the movie.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember you mentioning this video as an example of an appeal to the algorithm in one of your 10 Things I Hate About CZcams streams.
Dear lady, if media analysis that features an in-depth discussion of Dogtooth to challenge the controversy surrounding Poor Things is conforming to the algorithm in any way... it never occurred to me that I would find a CZcams video featuring Dogtooth (beyond a passing mention for shock value).
This is the kind of media/social analysis we need; something that shakes us out of the Hollywood doldrums with genuinely challenging and subversive films and concepts, addresses human sexuality without shame while discussing a film as challenging - yes, I keep using that word, but I can't think of another word for Dogtooth - and gut-wrenching as Dogtooth in detail, with the kind of nuance that draws our attention to the quiet parts of the film that have so much to say (your mention of the sensual/sexual awakening scene between Christina and Bruce reminds me of a brief passage in Brave New World that's stuck with me since the first time I read it).
Tl;dr
This video is brilliant. In its own way, it's as radicalizing as your political content, and that is precisely why you shouldn't ever sell your media analysis (and your work as a whole) short.
P.S. Thank you for reminding me of parts of Dogtooth that I'd forgotten. It's an overwhelming film, to say the least, and too many of its details have slipped through the cracks over time.
I wish I had better words for my thoughts on this, but these will have to do.
Omg thank you 🥹 it’s really nice to hear that about the work I didn’t completely have my heart in
@@vivianstrange It might seem as though I'm buttering you up and going hard on the flattery, but it's neither. I genuinely mean it.
Even when you don't have the full weight of your passion and dedication behind it, the quality of your work is undeniable (I'm very grumpy about the fact that I can only watch your De Sade video for the first time once. I'm just beginning circle 3, and I'm already excited for Part 2).
nah, I can tell you're sincere, and I appreciate it ^_^
I had the same reaction to the sex education scene, even if my reaction to most of the rest of the movie was more puritanical. I still tried to confront as to *why* the film made me uncomfortable.
I loved poor things
I agree with a lot of what you said. I personally found elements of the movie uncomfortable because I was a very late bloomer so when Bella was a teenager the level of sex she engaged in feels wierd to me. That's just my own bias though and everyone is different. I disagree with a couple points though-
1. Max expressed romantic feelings and proposed to Bella while she was still mentally a child and he was an adult. They are not childhood sweethearts. If he was presented as a bad guy it would have made a good point about how men infantize women, however he was presented as a good guy the whole way through the movie.
2. I am not pro sex work and I appreciate the writer of the movie will have different beliefs to me, but Bellas work in the brothel was presented as empowering when I don't believe it is. I was fully expecting Bella to realise how traumatising sex can be when she doesn't want it but needs to do it with men she isn't attracted to survive under capitalism. Her discomfort was instead framed as part of the what it means to be alive and liberating which disappointed me.
I quite enjoyed Poor things. Especially Emma Stone's character, and watching her learn, grow, evolve, and self exploration throughout the film. I also was reading Bella as being autistic representation with how blunt, straight forward, and rational about everything she was. Like not poor bad autistic representation, but a good one. I mean I have ADHD, and I'm sometimes very blunt, or just say something without my filter catching what I said before hand. It's like Bella is relatable to all neurodivergent folks trying to interact with the neurotypical world. Granted this is also the fact that Bella is that way because of her father Godwin instilling scientific theory into her with the way she grew up, but barely any humanity, and empathy. So she explores and learns how to empathize, humanize, and be an individual when she leaves for the outside world. I also love how she's introduced to philosophy and reading tons of books with the older woman. I also loved the pro sex work, and having some sapphic sex too. Bella had the most powerful best orgasm through the entire film with her friend she made at the brothel. Also loved it ended with Bella's brothel Friend living with them now, and reading a book. Would watch again if it wasn't like over 2 hours who knows what future me will do. Also I found the setting rather interesting like is this set in a period piece Frankenstein kinda futuristic fantasy world?? The settings of the world were gorgeous, except for London of course London looked dreary. But I mean England did literally colonize the entire world so London being the dark dreary uncolorful world is realistic with reality.
Thank you for patiently walking through this movie and the sexual themes! I think purity culture has made it so hard to engage with sex
Such a great film! Great work of art. As Emily Stone said with one word, the summation of the whoke work: "It's a metaphor." Such an important classic and educational instructional observation of the human world and species.
I disagree on godwin being a good parent.(at best he was ok but that’s kind of the best to hopeful) Only becuz he himself was a child experiment. Who’s father did horrible things to.
So him offering Belle agency to explore the world on her own. Is good but bar is really low.
That’s why the ending scenes with them hit so hard becuz it’s Belle learning that he did what he thought was the best based on his personal experiences.
Liked video. All your videos are thoughtful ones about movies or current news topics that should be discussed.
Yeah, he’s not parent of the year by any means, and the bar is super low. Still, I guess I appreciated that he wasn’t a creep and the story could very well have made him a lot worse than he was
@@vivianstrange that’s a fair point. I see where you coming from. I guess breaking harmful family cycles is not simply.
To that godwin did better then his creator. In time become goodish father.
Honestly based on the society of the movie. Is best possible thing that could’ve happened.
3:44 yes! 100% that part is missed by most moral-panickers. For all colored scenes she is already grown. People grow up. Brains develop.
Oh really? Then why does she call sex "furious jumping"? This is childish description.
@@Antyoksydantka85 because "polite society" never told her about the usual terms they use. Furious jumping isn't a childish term, it's a descriptive way of saying that you do jump and you do it furiously because you make "angry" sounds.
this video is amazing, you really explained everything about this movie so well! if i see one more person trashing poor things for being ”problematic”, i might just send them a link to this :^) can’t wait too see what you upload next, have a great day/night!!!
also glad to meet a fellow queer anarchist 👋
glad to meet a comrade as well :) thank you for your kind words
14:35 I don't think Godwin bringing her into existence was immoral. I feel like you are relying too much on the word "consent" -- as if going against one's consent is somehow automatically bad. This is clearly not the case. Parents make decisions for children against their will all the time, this is not necessarily immoral. Later in life Bella appreciates that Godwin decided to bring her into existence, saying that she likes living.
Thanks for this perceptive it’s really great, also as someone that’s autistic and had some complicated feelings I really appreciate someone with the same condition’s thoughts on the film
It’s definitely one of my favorites. I almost didn’t watch it because of the premise and during the first 10 minutes of the movie I almost turned it off. I’m not the usual type to be into “artsy” films I like things to be straightforward no metaphors. But for some reason I actually enjoyed this 😂
You should read about this thing called feminism
I turned you off immediately when you sprayed your cat. He only wanted some love and attention. Will not watch your channel again.
okay byyyyyyeeeeeeee
(also, you have NO IDEA how spoiled my baby boy is; he gets more love and attention than you can IMAGINE.)
@@vivianstrangecan you please stop being stop INSANELY racist against us Mexicans in your videos?
@@akirathedog777 ummmm could you elaborate? I don't wanna be racist but I sincerely have no idea what you're talking about
I'm really glad I stumbled across this video. Unseen yet, it is now at the top of my list. Food for thought: this reminds me of Frankenstein (1933 version with Boris Karloff). Monster stumbles around the lab. His learning curve is accelerated. The villagers gawk and exploit him. And he becomes his true self and is burnt to death for it. It's a good watch and much deeper than most know.
Finally a video of someone who understood Poor Things
Great analysis.
My first Lanthimos was The Lobster and with Poor Things, I felt he was doing the same thing he did for love and romance stories in The Lobster, but for coming of age tales.
The worlds and characters are similar to us, but strange and different enough, that they ideally allow for a more nuanced and clear look at the strange behavioral patterns and traditions we have adopted to navigate these respective impulses and processes.
I found it so frustrating to see so many hung up on this born-sexy-yesterday thing, but I feel like I wasn't equipped fully to understand why they saw that, and even if I was missing something.
So thank you for spelling it out for me 😅
Also, I really had forgotten a lot about the particular details of Dogtooth, maybe I'm going to have to watch it again.
You are Fantastic!
🙏
This this THIS! Thank you for saying all of it!!
💜💜💜
New sub here on FD SIg recommend. Have plenty of direct eyes on the Empire's Israeli abomination (min 2 hrs/day) and looking for fresh material beyond the obvious. Hope you can provide.
Btw. Given the cinematic pap corporations pump out like Big Macs, "Poor Things" was refreshing, provocative and highly entertaining. Noticed you hit "all the men" who exploited Bella and hope you gave a review of the one who honoured her attentions ... you know, the one she eventually chose as "an adult." Now I'm off for a listen.
Great take on Poor Things.
Two points I differ on. 1. There was no "arranged" marriage. Max merely declared his intent to propose to God. An arranged marriage would imply God made proposal to Max. And 2, don't let myth of "parental lies" stop you from entering parenthood ... if you so desire. I never lied to my two, now very well adjusted, reasonably confident young adults. At best, I used "I explain when you're older" ... twice, and did so a soon as they were not so close to each highly emotional difficult event.
I know, their marriage wasn’t arranged, that was me being facetious lol
And as far as having children goes, I just don’t think the experience is for me at all. I get enough pleasure from being a parent to two cats, and that’s enough for me :)
@@vivianstrange Honoured you responded. I stand by my thoughts ... just in case others were mistaken as I may have been. Hope you do well.
Maybe I’m wrong, but it could be possible that some of the criticism thrown at this movie and movies with sex scenes in general is really just jealousy and resentment hidden behind a veil of progressivism. I know because I both understand this intimately and sometimes do this myself. You’re part of Gen Z and all you know is a worsening economy, a worsening job market. The likelihood of you not losing your virginity (especially if you look a certain way) and living with your parents well into your 20s is extremely high (something boomer’s can’t understand). So because you’re desperate, you turn to things like porn to relieve yourself and mentally simulate the real act of sex. I don’t know, but I feel like the last thing a person in this condition would do is watch a full-length feature consisting of attractive people having sex. For some, sex is everywhere, and there is this invisible pressure to do it. I don’t know, but like teen dramas that present these grand narratives of privileged adolescence, some of us don’t want to see conventionally attractive actors getting it on, thus reminding us of our perceived “failures”. I dunno. Hollywood just feels so demoralizing sometimes.
I think it’s the exact opposite because of the cancel porn movement, which was a movement started by a Christian organization, which did criticize the exploitation that happens around pornography, but it was for the purposes of Christian propaganda a lot of people aren’t aware of that especially the Genz that is anti-porn making everyone on every side of the political spectrum anti-porn so when they see anything showing any type of sexuality they believe it is inherently exploitative and misogynistic. Basically it’s a new type of sexual repression that is born out of a bad place based on terrible science. That now not only gives everyone the leeway to shame each other. But also can now do it from a moral high ground that is probably just as based in sexually repression as just saying that nobody should ever talk about sex because it’s gross.
@14:36 nope, his logic about bringing bella into existence was that the mother chose to end her life but the fetus inside of the mother did not make that choice. i know you said that all children are brought into the world this way but it should not be listed as a 'morally condemnable' i did enjoy this movie but thought that it focused too much on the sexual development of bella but i didn't lose my crap over it.
The way me and my autistic friends loved poor things cuz we saw ourselves in bella