Good Game Design - Super Meat Boy: Motivational Punishment
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- čas přidán 11. 09. 2024
- Super Meat Boy is hard. Like really hard. But for some reason people keep on playing it. Why? Well, let's talk about it.
Thanks to theGame Boys for feedback and help on this episode.
Kid's React To Super Meat Boy: • KIDS PLAY SUPER MEAT B...
Sunder's LevelHead: • LevelHead - Super Meat...
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Besides the quick respawn the game also does not restart the music when you die which makes it less frustrating.
+noseminer Yeah thats a nice suttle feature :) keeps you going
Yup just like Celeste
I play geometry dash, so I get that.
@@blokvader8283 its a "semi-msuic game" so in gd its necesary
@@gergoanghelyi8159 No need to use "semi-music" it's just a rhythm game.
I hate when games set you back too far for dying. It sucks because I want to practice the specific parts that keep getting me, and not be distracted by the parts I managed to survive. Super Meat Boy shows just how often you need to die to finally get it right and I love when games let you die without too much punishment. If I have to beat a whole bunch of sections each time for an attempt at a harder section, I won't be able to experiment and practice. That's why I love checkpoints and games without lives. These aren't arcade games so there's no reason to limit my attempts. That's what I can't stand about the DK Country games.
+OtakuDaiKun Yeah i think a lot of games have evolved from lives since then, glad too because I just want to play more of your game! lol, don't send me back!
DKC games have checkpoints though. Granted the SNES games only (usually) have one per level. But they take maybe 5-10 minutes to complete.
Have you tried the Returns games? They have multiple checkpoints per level (except for the bonus levels).
EDIT: Okay, this was an *old* comment, I don't expect an answer...
Dennis Clausen I think he’s talking about his annoyance with lives, DKC doesn’t give you that many, but there are some cheats to give you extra, that’s how I played it
OtakuDaiKun It’s funny cuz Dark Souls came out and a lot of people now don’t care for losing a lot when you die
This is exactly what keeps me from playing Dark Souls.
You mean i gotta walk through that whole maze again?
It just FORCES the trial and error over large repetitive sections of the game.
I KNOW where the secret was, Why do i need to grab it again? It quickly feels like 30 minutes wasted when you die.
Granted, i'm sure it's rewarding when you beat the next level, But make it optional, Let me play on easy then (Checkpoints). And give rewards for players who try it again on a harder setting, which would also mean you know the route a bit, it's just tougher without checkpoints. And this would be the real game so to speak with the real ending. That would be, in my opinion. much better. (The game could "finish" the story in a mediocre way a chapter or 2 early etc, have the main character die story-wise or whatever :P they can figure it out. Not too much extra trouble. twice the avg playability or more.
I wouldn't call this a rage game. A rage game is designed to be _unfair_. This game on the other hand, is 100% fair. Like you said, every death feels like your own fault, and through this you improve and learn.
This. This needs to be better understood. I herald Super Meat Boy as one of the best games ever, and spit on IWBTG. IWBTG is memorizing combined with horrible difficulty, wheras Super Meat Boy is almost purely about skill. (Some maps are easier to just memorize one specific set of events, but I can only think of 2 or 3 of them)
Ernie Bernie I actually think memorizing is using "actual skill". I prefer it. It's reason why I hate rougelikes so goddamn much.
But IWBTG is an unfair game because it kills you off without telegraphing.
My point with the distinction is that in SMB there's many maps that have pretty much only one way to do them, but there are others where there are multiple paths. Like the Cotton Alley dark world map where you jump up and there's sawblades on both sides going around with different lengths and speeds. You can memorize an optimal path that requires some skill to pull off, but if you're really into the game and the skills are at their peak, you can just do it by intuition and reflexes. First or second time I did that map I did it in two tries. I didn't have a preset strategy. IWBTG however requires you simply to memorize a set route. There's only staying within the route, and the occational break. Any deviation is punished.
I guess Rage games can be a mix of both. SMB just feels so much similar to a Rage game, yet, not even a tiny bit unfair or surprising. It's the perfection of a genre in that it take away it's flaws and fills it with brilliant design.
People could design more games like this, or even a game with both elements. Why not?
100% honest. Iwbtg Is pretty unfair. While its fun to complete a hard section, the game is really hard to get in to. And pretty much yells at you for the first 30+ Minutes. I can Admit this despite being a fan.
“Each stage is short too.”
*CoughCoughCOTTONALLEYLEVEL20CoughCough*
lmaoooo
Fuck Cotton Alley, fuck xoxo
Great episode, Sno'
+Mark Brown You da man Mark, thanks dude!
+snomaN Gaming I say Pause Ahead!
+snomaN Gaming Pause Ahead is a great game...it is short but man...HOW CAN I BEAT THIS...it runs on the easy to learn hard to master thing
“Death isn’t punishing”
*coughs in achievments*
:'(
Very insightful, and you found a way to talk shit about the fine bros. Whats not to like? Subbed.
+chasenallimcam Subtly, even. Most people aren't even going to notice the jab.
A small question: Aside from the Whole "React" scandal, is there any other problem with the FB? As someone who have watched them for some time, I'm curious about it.
What's wrong with them?
they tried to copyright the concept of 'reacting', insisting they invented the idea of making react videos and trying to insist they deserve a cut of any monetized 'react' videos.
What's wrong with Fine Bros? All they ever did was try to copyright a word that didn't belong to them. And that was just silly. Nothing to think they're bad people over.
I always tell people that Super Meat Boy is great because of the near-instant respawn. A lot of people i know raged at it and i played through it and thought "that was tough but way too much fun!"
+Max Out Of Ten Yeah it keeps drawing you back in, that's the beauty
+Max Out Of Ten Imagine, if each death has slo-mo animation. Want faster - Only $0.99 for 24h!
Hotline miami
Why did you get likes
@@zaidlacksalastname4905 Hotline miami
Du du duuuuuu
Did I ask
@@theeveronever1554 yes because you said: "did i ask" which is in itself a question.
Well, i completed Super Meat Boy on 106%, picked up all bandages, all worlds have A+ ratings and stuff, so let me tell you my expression from this game.
Super Meat Boy was extremely hard to complete. I passed first 6 light worlds nearly 6-7 years ago and then went back. 3-4 months ago i fully completed this game. It took me nearly 30 000 deaths counting all times i played SMB to complete everything in there. It was hundreds of hours. But what made me sit in this game for so long? Good graphical design, good programming execution, amazing soundtracks and amazing game design, as snomaN Gaming noticed. It doesn't make you hate the game because of lags and when you die it's *fully your fault*. And after every single death you learn how to control your little meat cube, making it passing extremely hard levels and becoming much better with it's controls. Also, instead of "I wanna be the Boshy!" you don't have to complete everything and everywhere to reach the end. You can pass the game completing only 6 light worlds and you can complete 7th worlds plus all dark worlds, if you want to see the true ending. Maybe i said the same that snomaN said, but i wanted to emphasize those sides of the game. Love Edmund McMillen for this game. :D
Yeah great points! It's got a lot of depth!
Holy shit its actually shuriken
Shuriken255's Channel same here I love suoer meat boy! Except the kid level 5 hours well spent.
this makes me feel better about my 11k deaths to finish the game 106%
The kid was pretty easy to unlock for me. It took me 3 hours. For the first one I had to leave but I beat it on the next two
Dark Souls...
A punishingly difficult game however even finding something as a simple piece of clothing becomes incredibly rewarding.
Bosses are challenging but leave you feeling satisfied whenever you overcome them.
And oddly enough, the story doesn't necessarily revolve around you, rather it revolves around the world. The game is difficult but I wanna keep exploring all the world's intricacies, seeing how many different ways I could traverse it.
Chaoz Gaming 0:16
Dark Souls does the opposite of SMB that makes it good challenge. SMB relies on a fast iteration time to make the difficulty less punishing, but in Dark Souls, brutally hard though it is, what helps is *everything* in the game follows the exact same rules.
Dark souls has ton of bs places
Celeste!
Idk man, Bed of Chaos do exist though
I love VVVVVVV and think this fits it pretty well.
Phenomenal game!
I love VVVVVV as well, but it was mostly the optional stuff that was hard. Damn fun game though.
+Ernie Bernie Doing things the hard way, anyone? Although it's easy once you have done it once.
There IS that one AMAZING hard community level too. ugh, I forget it's name...
Binding of Isaac rebirth, although doesn't set you back to where you died, you have that urge to try and go farther or beat that floor.
+HomieEzie HD Now with afterbirth, there are competitive dailies that encourage you to improve to beat your friend's scores.
Super Hexagon.
Though the difficulty can get batshit crazy from the get-go (hence the first level being labeled Hard difficulty), it motivates the player to continue in many ways; through really damn good chiptune music that changes in pace as time goes on, quick respawns, non-disruptive narrated reminders of the player's progress towards "beating" a level, and steadily adapting the player to a randomized set of obstacles that they will have to face in later levels.
This is why I'm completely against lives in videogames. They're redundant, and serve to bog the player down in load times, transitions, whatever else they can throw at you to pad playtime, while adding nothing of significance. Meat Boy did away with lives, and it's less rage-inducing than some NES/SNES titles, all because you're not thrown back to the beginning of the game for making a dumb mistake.
We don't see lives in many games nowadays, mostly just first-party Nintendo stuff, but they're still completely pointless, and need to die off. I don't think Volgarr used lives either, but I could be wrong. Man, I love me some Volgarr.
GREAT VIDEO, MAN! I love this series.
+Casposaurus - The Channel That Hugs Back Yeah man! I agree completely! Instead of padding, like you were saying, now devs just want us to keep trying and play all of their game! Volgarr didn't use lives either and it really pays off with games like this. If you had limited tries, it just wouldn't be fun, and dare I say - bad design :P
Thanks Casp, you da man my friend :)
+Casposaurus - The Channel That Hugs Back Lives are a recessive trace we got from the arcades. Necessary for monetary purposes back then, not really anymore. Some games like Crash Bandicoot don't make you mind it so much, but megaman is annoying when you want to get back to that and you have to go all the way through to try again. Personally I like how They Bleed Pixels dealt with that, you make your checkpoints, they're have a lot to do with scoring and are purely based on your skill, if you could not know your own limit to make one sooner or simply not skilled enough to make one, you are reminded and the game puts you BACK to learn them.
This refreshed lives in an interesting way.
Hey, Kirby Star Allies technically has infinite lives
Pretty sure the Touhou bullet hell games do this pretty well. They may look insanely hard but the part that I love is how you learn how each boss attack works and where and how to dodge it. If you got hit and lost a life, that was because you didn't read the attack pattern or you didn't read it enough to properly dodge it.
5 years later, but I think touhou's flaw on that is having a definitive game over, making you go through all the stages and bosses again, making it more difficult to remember the later on challenges
I think what really brought this episode together was when you showed the design working its magic on these kids. I actually gave up on Meat Boy a couple months ago in the Hell world. Maybe it had something to do with the fact that I didn't have a controller at the time, but now I'm gonna give it another shot! Great work Sno!
+SteveOHobo Oh dude! The controller is a MUST, and I think you'll have a much better time with it
Man, I couldn't imagine doing it with keyboard. And yet, during the Kid unlock, my thumb started hurting, so maybe keyboard is the way to go for that level :P
+SteveOHobo oh you cant just jump back into hell. I think hell is the worst. trust me, try playing couple dark world levels that you have missed because they are way easier than hell.
you mention how meat boy never changes, just your skill level. i love that in games, and i like when the the harder levels are unlocked at the start for you to try, fail at and then beat with a feeling of accomplishment once youve learned the ropes in the easier levels.
+Cupriferous Catalyst YEAH for sure! I like that once you get to the harder levels, if you go back to the old levels you feel like a total pro!
No mention of Celeste?
Oh wait, this video is from 2015 and you did another video on Celeste later.
Works for me
One thing the ultimate edition of SMB said in it's manual (my first introduction to game theory) is how they made sure to always make the music continue- it will never reset when you die like other games, which prevents you from hearing the same three notes over and over again. Team Meat is genius sometimes.
VVVVVV VVVVVV VVVVVV VVVVVV
honestly, VVVVVV is tied as my all-time favorite game because it took the lesson of short iteration time to heart and created something extremely difficult but entirely possible and even encouraging through the same means as Super Meat Boy.
+Ian Hitterdal (otend) Man that game is phenomenal. My one regret in this video is not mentioning VVVVVV hahaha its like the perfect example. So much fun
snomaN Gaming bonus points for that game: once you beat it the first time, it becomes short, so you can blaze through it again on a whim and just have a grand ol' time when you have an hour to kill.
I just graduated with my degree in game design and am working as a developer for an indie studio and these are some of the most informative lessons that I have gotten on this topic!
Meat Boy is amazing and I love that it takes difficulty the right way, loads of games like to add challenge in a bad way and it discourages people from trying. Meat Boy, despite being a thousand times harder than most those games is almost impossible to rage at and you always want to continue and improve. I've taken a fairly long break from the game myself and haven't put a dozen hours into it (yet), but one day I do believe I'll push to get all the no deaths achievements, I have just Cotton Alley Light & Dark worlds to complete without deaths, and whilst that's only 2 worlds it outclasses any of the others I've already done by far, but I can see myself doing it. Why? Am I saying I'll get it because I'm some ultra badass gamer pro? No, but because the game motivates you to continue until you succeed, regardless of skill and all that's standing in your way is your persistence and patience, something that's enhanced by its motivational style.
This is why I love Super Meat Boy. It realises that a game doesn't have to be punishing to be difficult (of course there's also the amazing controls and the excellent way of teaching the player what to do, but I think that first bit is more important).
+DarkChaos Yeah I think they focused a lot on how he controls, otherwise all the difficulty and challenge would feel be for not, because it wouldnt feel fair.
Good content, I didn't like the jokes though, especially that they were all taken from elsewhere. I appreciate that you were trying to lighten up the tone of the video, I just don't want to hear the same jokes I've heard a million times. The 'its like X but not weird', the 'its not as bad as Y', the 'thats why they call it "really obvious thing" '.
Look forward to seeing more as you're able to delve into lesser covered titles.
i usually hate rage games but i remember playing this as a kid and loving it despite not being able to get past factory, the movement is just so much fun, fast paced but not ridiculous like the old sonic games and getting closer to completing a level feels so good in itself, and finding the patterns and path to take to complete the level is enjoyable. and getting to see 100 meatboys run the same level on the replay showing how many times you died on the same level is so cool
After I recently beat Super Meat Boy, I realized that it's my favorite game of all time.
I beat it 30 minutes ago
Nice episode!
"It's not that this guy gets stronger, you get stronger" : That is really what answer the question at the beginning, why I play games where you die over and over. This is so satisfying to finally beat a game like this.
And I agree, replaying the firsts levels of the game afterwards feel awesome because stuff that seemed impossible hours before became super easy.
+Skritz Yeah theres a lot of connection to the "accomplishment" principle here too, good call
“each stage is short”
“looks at the super meat boy forever levels”
(PS: I beat this game)
well except the cotton alley.
I think many secret levels in Super Meat Boy emphasize how painful it is to go back to lives screen after dying.
Also, try a game called LOVE. This is an example of too short times between dying and gaining control which results you in repeated deaths. Usually 0.3 seconds suffices but if your respawn point is near a death hazard, you'll often forget to let go your controls after dying, resulting a death. It could be solved by a level design but in LOVE you're the one who sets up respawn point.
+artman40 YEAH I've played LOVE! I liked it, but I agree, you could respawn and die immediately depending on where you set your save point. It's a pretty important part of a game, one that's often overlooked (how long in between a retry)
super meat boy fills you with *DETERMINATION*
+ricardogamer1303 Ayyyyy
Another thing about Super Meat Boy that I felt was a nice touch was that the music doesn't loop back to the beginning every time you die. It's what frustrates me about I Wanna Be The Guy, because you just keep hearing the first few notes over and over again.
+Thatchner YES! That is a HUGE benefit, and really makes the game flow better. So true
Discovered this channel from the Good Game Design episode on Undertale, and watched some more. I love the subtle humor (3:20 and 3:47, etc.) and it looks like we share a lot of opinions about games.
tldr i subscribed
+Eathams Hehe thats awesome, glad you enjoyed :D
same to me bro
What's going on in your avatar? It looks kinky.
The point you made about going back is so accurate. Super Meat Boy exemplifies good game design.
Give Up
It's the same room (with slightly different arrangements) 40 times, and it's very careful about escalating the difficulty. You can beat it in under an hour, but it's still a doozy.
Mozata yeah. And the sequel is much more challenging
The series that introduced me to your channel. Very nicely done man keep up the good work!
Now I really want to play super meat boy... Only ever played the trial version
+Recabilly It's incredible. You won't regret it!
Lol that phil phish comment earned a sub
+Toats lol thanks. Looking back, I really liked the movie but there was a lot of that in it haha!
I fully completed super meat boy nearly 6 months ago. I still remember the thorough rage i had on those few levels and how difficult it was to go through but the game was a rage game on its own no cheap tricks no unseen trap just tight controls and amazing level design it actually made me better not only at that but other games mostly fps. Props to edmund mcmillen
The game has great level design. The only thing I didn't like is the circular gravity objects that pushes meat boy higher or lover defending when and how you decide to jump. I beat the game but still have no idea how the mechanics works.
Hahah yeah they are REALLY hard to figure out
Those " Demon mouth thing" are called Black Maws.
Also, once I got Ogmo, I beat the game by using his double jump, but then I went through the whole game as Meat Boy, to Meatproof every level.
Super Crate Box is also a perfect example. Highly addictive game.
+melack857 Hmm havent heard of it, I'll have to check it out!
And the music does not freaking restart when you die, that's a really good motivation to keep playing and trying harder, specially with a great soundtrack like SMB's.
Very informative, good job! Also, I love you for that Phil Fish jab.
+Metaknightkirby2 lol thanks. I actually enjoyed Indie Game The Movie, but yeah he was a little annoying in it
+Metaknightkirby2 Although I understand why people complain so much about Phil Fish, I actually liked that viewpoint because it reflects how doing a work of love for so long can impact on your overall mental health. As a game developer myself I could certainly relate to it and know that although that's not the case of everybodythings like that can really put you on the edge of a breakdown.
it's crazy how there's so many short levels in this game yet I remember a lot of the ones that you showed on the video. Really goes to show how good of a game Super Meat Boy is.
+PokoLokoChako Yeah very memorable!
Super Meat boy is a masterpiece.
Yeah, this indie game masterpiece is the one that introduced me to Steam. Since then, I kinda feel nostalgic about that fact sometimes when playing the game. Thanks for this game design explanation anyway.
I honestly wish more people would give the game a chance and realize how good it is.
1001 spikes, super meatboy, I wanna be the guy
I like these games, they really teach me perseverence and stayng cool when something goes inevitably wrong.
yeah absolutely!
Nuclear Throne was this for me, though you get stronger over the course of a run, what really matters is your ability. Playing the earlier levels now is a breeze compared to the first times. Let your concentration slip at the wrong time though, and you might die in a really stupid way.
Great example of a game where you go from "That's bullshit! I coud never had avoided that" to "That was totally my fault."
Thanks for a great vid!
Glad you enjoyed :) Great example
The replays of stages where you die often are basically a perfect representation of the process of being pregnant
I like how so many people are negative about the industry, but you (at least in this video), look for the good bits. Love that!
+drvanon Thanks! Yeah I try to look at the positives :)
My favorite game like this is VVVVVV
+Tim Wright Oh man! VVVVVV is a great example! Can't believe I didnt think of it before!
Another point: The game has a variety of characters, which make certain levels a lot easier. Especially Commander Video who can glide for a few seconds.
Yeah, i personally find "kid" the most useful character since he isn't as slow as ogmo and has a double jump. Commander video is nice for the earlier stages.
excellent explanation, I don't really have any indie game on my mind, but another great game that sorta links to this is Monster Hunter. While death is sorta hard in this game, you don't rly die unless you are being careless. Which makes me think, how about the game design based around risk and reward. In Monster Hunter, sometimes, you can quit your 2 hit then run away type of combo, which is safe. For a more all in approach, it can pay off by putting the monster on the ground, or not affect him enough and you'll get it for ridiculous dmg.
+Joshua Blake Yeah Monster Hunter is awesome! I don't have a 3DS but the new one looked great! Definitely that challenging gameplay that pushes you to do better
Well, you can wait for the new one that will come later. Monster Hunter X (cross), it seems like really really good. But hey, keep up the good videos ;)
Thanks for making this vid! It's nice to watch a succinct recap of the things I learned from SMB. My game, David, took a lot of inspiration from Super Meatboy and games like it. Hard, short levels, quick death/restarts, no "upgrades", level design and enemy design that attempts to teach the player how to win intuitively.
+Andrew “Ace” Armstrong That's awesome! I might have to check your game out! Can you link it?
+snomaN Gaming Sure! www.fermentergames.com/david/
I will always read "SMB" as Super Mario Bros :(
VVVVVV anyone? is it hard enough? Because I blazed through it in one hour (with 15 trinkets) doesn't mean it's that easy for other players.
+Lulink Yeah V is an amazing example, love that game
No game has made me curse out loud as much as this game. But it kept me coming back for more. Fantastic game, highly recommend.
VVVVVV Geometry Dash are some of my fav games, and i think they have quite good design
You wish
I think the GD level design depends mainly on the community. Still agree with you tho.
Baldur's gate! One mistake and your party gets wiped! But every time you reload, you know you've learned something.
+Francis Allard Awesome!
tfw finebros sells you on sno's theory
+PerrydactylShow It was the plot twist of the century
Another thing to Super Meat Boy's credit is all the red meatjuice that gets spread all over the terrain -- a visual reminder of where you've been and also what things killed you.
+Stratelier Ah yes , that is genius! It also helps show you what worked and didnt work from your past lives. So good
Took me so much time beating the first world, then when I got near the end of the game I beat whole 1st world in under 5 mins :D
Super Hexagon comes to mind, the respawn is even faster than here, you almost never go for over 60 seconds on a level, and when you start to get really good, time actually starts to feel like it moves slower. Like 30 seconds in Super Hexagon are FOREVER. Theres's also no obstacle in the game you just can't avoid, even if you somehow get yourself in a bad position after avoiding other one.
I really need to find the motivation to continue to 100% this game...
Did you ever do it???
I really loved They Bleed Pixels' design. For the most part it felt very fair, and added in depth combat into the mix, which few rage games actually do.
+Heartless7747 Yeah! I really enjoyed that game! It's SUPER hard, but very enjoyable
Super Hexagon does this too.
I agree with a lot of what you said and to be honest... In rage games, I've always the way they handle death as a form of negative reinforcement.
It's like the game is saying "No! This isn't the way you do it! Try again!"
Losing fills you with determination. (I'm sorry.)
+Asia Illumina Hahah, ya know, if I had played Undertale before making this, I might've said the same thing
+Asia Illumina Ya'll gonna need at least triple your current LV of Determination (as well as possibly some Liquid Courage) for the complete www.kongregate.com/games/UnknownJoe796/focus necessary to beat this one! Enjoy!
(I completely credit this for granting me the reaction speed necessary to take out Sans on the first try)
Made me think at the end of Long Live The Queen.
It's quite curious because as the visual novel with a splash of dating sim that it is you wouldn't expect it but it is very much a game of trial and error. It´s 20 to 120 minutes you have with the game to find a new plan and see where it leads you and how well you can execute it. And then you fall prey to poison chocolate and it's back to the drawing board, now with new information on how the game progresses....
I think it's a nice example of this sort of design being applied in a genre where it is a bit unexpected
+Vile Lasagna Yeah interesting, definitely didnt think about that genre lol, cool tho!
99% of platformers on scratch are good rage games
That was EXCELLENT!! I didn't expect something so short be so good, you proved me wrong. I loved so much the part about the little kids playing, especially the fact there were girls and they were determined. Also to be able to see all your versions running at the same time until "only i will remain" was a strike genius.
P.S. I don't quite like letting little kids see something so violent, BUT i myself grew up watching worse things and nothing happened.
why you wouldn't recommend a fine bross production?? just curious.
great video! and so awesome that mark brown is watching this too. the best game design series in youtube.
congrats
+Alejandro Foronda im sure you know now.
+SirGhostly hah totally
FineBros were obviously cancer for a while though.
Getting 106% in this game was easily one of my best gaming achievements. With every little achievement, I thought this was it, I can't do any better. But the whole game seemed to laugh at me, call me out on that warp zone I couldn't finish, and the last two bandages in it. It was a great experience to play this game.
Geometry dash has good design
"There's nothing to blame your death on besides yourself." You undestimate the power of sweaty bois
Hotline Miami has great game design
Battleblock theater! It's a perfect example of this genre. Not only does it share all the best features of SMB, it also is up to 4 player cooperative (or co-optional as they say). It starts easy, gets insanely hard, has fast respawn, no significant powerups, early stages replayed are easy etc.
+schnuerle What a great example! I love BB Theater!
+snomaN Gaming Thought of another one.
I forgot about Super Time Force. All the same properties as SMB and BBT. Even less respawn time that SMB since you rewind time, and fight alongside your dead character (not a later ghost of it like SMB, but they are there doling out whatever damage they did again when they were alive). Another phenomenal game with a terrific new game mechanic.
Ooo yes! I have this game but havent played it yet, definitely want to check it out it looks great!
+snomaN Gaming Yes play it my man! It's so addicting because of how you really learn and get better with the mechanics. It's the kind of game where you do something and it feels like you are cheating, like Portal, but they designed it that way. With all the character unlocks and multiple ways to beat a level, it makes you want to keep going. And take a look at the achievements for even more ideas - some are impossible but so satisfying when you do them. You are so responsive to comment! You just got a subscriber, keep it up!
want the list?! ok GD,osu,gd meltdown,and catbug
You had some footage/mentioned it, but I think I'm gonna have to go with Wings of Vi as one to mention. It's made by the creator of I Wanna Be The Boshy, but it was his attempt to make a game that was rediculouslly stupid hard, but fair...and I think he pretty much succeeded. Unlike Meat Boy, she does get powerups as the game progresses, but it's in a constant state of teaching you how she controls...you can generally always see the obstacles ahead, and since it's the way you have to go, you look at it and say to yourself, 'ok...how do I use the moves I have to get past this?' her jumps are a resource, and you learn how to manage them to proceed.
+Uratoh42 Yeah I love Wings of Vi, I especially like the way her jump works, how it saves the jump if you fall off the ledge instead. Made for some really unique platforming. It is REALLY hard, but like you said, fair. I never felt unjustly killed, its just stupid hard haha!
I'm sure I'm not the first person in the comments to bring up Dark Souls as a rage game that encourages you to improve yourself as a player. But yeah, I think that one counts.
+PermianExtinction Yeah thats a perfect example! That game was phenomenal!
+PermianExtinction I personally like the way it also keeps you on your toes by punishing complacence. You can easily learn most enemies' attack patterns, but as soon as you get too casual about trying to rush through an area, you'll find yourself mobbed and dead before you even realize it. The game's all about careful planning, and massacres you if you ignore that.
I wouldn't say this game is "well designed" or anything, but flappy bird is a pretty good example of how effective motivational punishment can be for keeping players hooked
Duuuuuuude you need a de-esser plugin
I think the best easy to learn, hard to master game I own is Super Smash Bros' 3DS/Wii U. You can easily pick a character that fits you best, but soon you learn that you should always stay behind Mario when he does his Smash Attack, and then learn some characters have better recoveries and that if someone's holding onto the ledge, you purposely steal the ledge and knock them out of there! Then when you get into playing as some new characters, you learn that Link has a bomb attack and you can use it to have double recoveries! This is only 3 examples out of many small tactics to use!
N+
Great game!
I think another game that really hit me well in this kind of rewarding game design was actually They Bleed Pixels, with one clever addition: You decide where the checkpoints are. So while unlike Meatboy, the levels are long and complicated affairs with lots of precise actions, if you were struggling with something you could decide that it was worth burning the checkpoint on it. It made it feel really rewarding once you got better at the game and used less and less checkpoints as crutches.
Geometry dash, I'm so hooked
+Matthew Gardasanic Yeah that game's fun!
+snomaN Gaming YEAH!
One of the best expression of the "motivational punishment" principle in my opinion comes from the game Dust Force. Similar to Super Meat Boy, the levels are somewhat short (usually taking around 2 to 3 minutes to complete) but unlike Super Meat Boy, it starts you off from the last safe platform you were on. It has a ranking system that ranks you in 2 categories: completion (how much of the level you've cleaned / how many enemies you killed), and finesse (how many times you died).
If you get a S rank in both categories of an easy level, you earn a silver key. These keys unlock newer, more difficult levels in the same area. If you get an S rank in both categories in these levels, you get a gold key, which unlocks even more difficult levels. Even getting to these levels can be challenging, and it requires you to use what you've learned earning those keys even just to open the doors to those levels. I'd go so far as to call this "skill creep" principle (similar to power creep, but with personal skill rather than earning new abilities).
+Czarewich Yes! Dustforce is an amazing example. I love that game!
I know one...SUPER MARIO MAKER
Hidden blocks are the exact opposite of what this video is praising.
exepting Troll levels (Sorry if I have Bad English :v)
This reminds me of Prinny: Can I Really be the Hero. It has really good level designs as well, not to mention a pretty unique level system and making you feel weak, but at the same time keeping things obtainable and feeling strong enough to do things.
+wilbwri Oh wow interesting, haven't heard of that. I'll have to check it out!
@@snomangaming I believe they are putting ports of it in Switch soon, I may need to try them out.
Good game design in FPS's?
+Peaceful Explosion Good idea! I'll have to look into that
snomaN Gaming Great, Thanks :3
+Peaceful Explosion Basically Half-Life 2.
DaFox Yeah, you're right.
Like legitimately snomaN Gaming: developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Bounce_%28level_design%29
developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Loops_%28level_design%29
These two level design techniques might be worth looking at in linear FPS games.
The Souls series (excluding the second one, which was just hard to be hard) seem like the truest form of that principle. Each time you die, it's because you died doing something wrong- you missed a tell, made a bad decision, or got too close to a ledge. So the next time you come up against it, you learn from your mistakes- you dodge that attack, you go left instead of right, you stick to the wall instead of the edge- and progressively get better each time you go through it.
+Jagar Alagoria Yes absolutely! I think I may do another episode on that game
snomaN Gaming Extra Credits praised the second one for it's inclusion of player choice, and Demon's Souls was the first in the series and great in its own right, but Dark Souls so far has been the.. well.. Souls-iest of the Souls games- I really think it has more positive elements that deserve some attention. Including the fact that no matter your playstyle, you could beat the game with sufficient skill. A video on it would be awesome ^^
This is why the original Super Mario Bros. 2 (localized as the "Lost Levels") is one of my favorites in the series. Brutally difficult, but each level and obstacle encourages you to tighten your timing or become more comfortable with its mechanics. To this day I think it has some of the best level design of any Mario entry, and it really gets a bad rap from people used to the easier titles in the series.
+MrRobosquad Yeah I never beat it, but its fun for sure! Brings real challenge to Mario
4:33 "... that he becomes a part of you."
inhales
CELESTE REFERENCE
You forgot to mention the meat trail he leaves behind is meant to prevent the player from making the same mistake twice.
I really liked They Bleed Pixels, but I didn't analyze it on gameplay. I just loved the lovecraftian art style and also the combat.
+Timothy Rockwell Yeah its got a unique style, I dig it.
First of, this is an awesome video. I played through the game myself (though just once) and watched a lot of speedruns. What you say makes total sense to me and you really got me into the video with the captivating way you talk.
However, there is one thing I'd like to point out. Though I agree that for the most part this game is fair and works with the concepts you talk about, there are a few exceptions.
For examples I'll name: First of, the glitch girl grinding + live limit when you finally get her. Though admittedly this is something that you will most likely only find out after you've played a lot of the game and are already pretty good, this is still annoying and frustrating.
Second, the level 7-20. The level is incredibly long and requires almost perfect consistency at really hard jumps to get through.
I understand that this is not what you're talking about in the video. However, I'd prefer if you give the dark sides (ha) of the game a quick mention as well.
Also, I think a good comparison that you could have made are so called Needle-Games (mostly IWBTG fan games with a lot of spikes). Because what you didn't mention clearly enough, is that sometimes acquiring the skill to get through a level and proceed with the game can be very grind heavy. You have to be able to endure the same death over and over again without punching your screen, if you want to get better. The way you phrased it, it sounded like it's simple to not repeat a mistake after you've done it once.
+F. Funnyach This is all very good points, thanks for pointing them out! Yeah I agree that some of the end-game levels in SMB are crazy hard, but they are meant to be an added challenge for those REALLY seeking to stretch themselves. As for Needle games, yeah there are SO many that I think are just absolutely terrible. You're right that you do have to try over and over again to get some things right in certain rage games, but for some reason I still enjoy it. I like seeing my progress as I get better. One thing I've noticed about rage games, is that once you complete a section it is easier and easier to complete it again (like if you start over from the beginning of the game). It's interesting how that works.
I actually like the finite lives system, even preferring it. When great consequence is put on your failure, you learn to act with precision and focus. This is a great metaphor for life.
I'd never play "i wanna be the guy" because of the unavoidable deaths, but super meat boy is a masterpiece!
I personally think all of the traps in IWBTG are hilarious. The traps seem difficult to avoid at first but dying to them encourages you to try something else to avoid them.
I think Wings of Vi, as mentioned in the video, is my favorite "Motivational Punishment" game. It has the same ramping difficulty in level design as Super Meat Boy, but also forces you to learn the new abilities that Vi gains throughout the game. One thing I also enjoyed is that it's structured like a Metroidvania sort of game, but with Super Meat Boy-fast respawns. Instead of completing a level you find a new save point, and the feeling of finally reaching that new save point is ecstasy..
+SokiofSci Yeah! I really enjoyed that game despite the difficulty. Your right, it kind of messes genres, and it absolutely has this principle
Battle Kid is the apotheosis of the rage game. It's frustrating and painful, but it's fair and you learn and get better at the game every time you die. I highly recommend it.
its not a rage game by any means, but while playing Undertale, everytime i died, it felt okay. like. ill admit im not too good at video games, but something about my name and "you are doing good! keep going" being plastered on my screen, read to me by a familiar voice, along with how much all the characters in that game love and care about you, well, it certainly made even the harder battles playable.
i really like this series so far!! its very insightful and the graphics and clips are always clear. plus your voice is very easy to hear and understand. definitely subscribing!
+Emily R Yeah I agree, Undertale was interesting that way. I never felt frustrated and wanted to quit, even in the genocide run. Good call :D Thank you so much, I'm glad you enjoy :)
+snomaN Gaming Undyne the Undying made me ragequit, lol. I'm bad at games.
ViktorSinister oh my god undyne, even in her normal state, was so hard for me haha i had to get the temmie armor after 9 tries