Driving the APT - Railway Documentary
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- čas přidán 3. 08. 2011
- During the production of "A Story Of Steam" we filmed at a number of places including the Crewe Heritage Centre.
We were able to speak to the trustee volunteer at the centre, William (Bill) Andrew.
After finding out he had worked on and driven the APT we asked him if he would mind talking about what it was like to drive the APT and what was involved.
This was long enough to put into another 'short' documentary.
Many thanks to William Andrew and Brian Porter for their help and Also to Lawrence Essex and Jonny Lee for their fantastic help during production.
Music by John Beagley and can be found here:
www.soundcloud.com/johnbeagleymusic - Krátké a kreslené filmy
I can listen to this gentleman for hours.
Poor old APT having to watch its estranged grandchildren driving by every day.
It's useless comparing the APT with the TGV, as the APT was designed to go round bends at speed - it was a 'tilting' train like the Virgin Pendolino and some high speed trains in Italy. The TGV on the other hand was designed to run on dead straight tracks with little or no bends at all. The TGV trains cannot corner at high speed, nor can the ICE trains or as most tragically seen, the Spanish AVE trains. In this respect the APT was a very different type of train with a unique set of demands.
Remember the tilting system is to make it more comfortable for the passengers; APT cant's go around curves nominally any faster than say a TGV regarding the train tipping over as the AVE did.
The ICE T can...
And the ICN from Alstom & Bombardier ( InterCity Neigezug > InterCityTiltingTrain ) Since 2002 it drove in Switzerland
@@Martindyna New AVE trains, if I remember correctly, have a tilting system based on a pendulum, similar to the APT (in the sense that it is not controlled electronically), due to the curves it must navigate at high speed in mountainous terrain. ICE can go round sharp bends on routes in Switzerland, but are typically restricted to 125 or 140mph on most sections.
What a unique interview! Thanks!
Had the APT been allowed to succeed and more conviction shown, I've no doubt it would have assumed public affection just as Concorde was.
It would probably even beat the class 390 if it went through a modernisation program
Exactly!
@@saifshah3352 Not a chance.
A project cancelled before its time :(
I'd love to see this back up and running again.
A great video; and a big thank you to all involved!
Got replaced by the well-known, and loved; HST.
The APT wasn't replaced by the HST.
The HST was in use from 1976, whereas the APT was used from 1980.
The APT sort of lives on now, the power cars were updated & became Class 91 loco's for ECML use. The tilt system was sold to Fiat, who reworked it & is now fitted to the Pendolino's.
@@jasonlittlewood3874 The APT traction motors were sourced from ASEA and were presumably 3 phase induction motors (8000 BHP total per train from the two power cars) while Class 91 was state of the art DC. Other aspects of APT were indeed applied to the Class 91.
I was under the impression that FIAT already had their own tilt system but they improved upon it by purchasing some of the BREL technology.
@@Martindyna No they were DC machines. The power electronics to drive AC induction motor didn't exist then. DC machine were controlled by Thyristor phase angle power controllers. Essentially a big lamp dimmer.
If only they got this back into service. That would be an amazing sight.
The tragedy of British engineering is such that it won't. What happens is the engineers come up with something good that doesn't immediately work so they fix it and it does. But by then the minsters have decided that it's a terrible idea and it will never work and don't take into account external conditions or the fact that it's still in testing. And the whole thing is scrapped and it's up to preservation guys to rack up the funds before it's cancelled so you can at least look at it rather than have it burnt.
Network Rail and Britain’s major passenger networks on the mainline would not be happy to allow a vintage consist on the mainline. The cost to restore APT-P to running order is also in the millions and that’s even more than what it costs to keep Flying Scotsman in service. APT-P’s NDM car would have to be full rebuilt, the controls would have to be completely rebuilt and safety equipment would have to be replaced and upgraded to today’s standards.
i spoke to a guy at the heritage centre last week and they want to get her back on the main line for railtours and things! let's start throwing some money in and see if we can achieve what the government couldn't and show the world what we can produce once more.
I love this train and am saddened that we came so very close to the APT being rolled out but it was (I think foolishly) abandoned at the last minute.
Such a skilled gentleman
I always wanted to ride on the APT in the 80s as a child, but we lived near the East coast mainline, not the west, so it never happened.
It was a pretty fantastic train, and years ahead of its time.
Great video footage of one of the drivers of the APT-P train (class 370), nicely pointing out the variety of lights and buttons of the very 1980's dashboard, done by a very experienced driver who drove steam, diesel and finally electric locos in his professional career. In 1981 BR put the APT-P project under intense pressure to trial out passenger service between London Euston and Glasgow Central to point out to the money men the project was a viable asset, needless to say after a handful of trips the APT-P was withdrawn from public service which it unfairly never really recovered from, continued testing of various equipment--High Speed Pantograph, Dynamic Braking System, In Cab Signaling, Passive Tilting testing (basically to apply these tests for upcoming locomotives such as the class 90 & 91) and so forth, a mobile laboratory in essence, the APT team was broken up by BREL and scattered about which saw the very gradual demise of the class 370 APT-P (Advanced Passenger Train--Prototype) by 1986 which by then was running about in the northern section of the WCML. The APT-P as we see it today would not have entered squadron service on the WCML, the class 370 was a test bed prototype for the eventual design and build of the APT-S units, a variety of sketches and models were built but it would have most likely resembled the Inter-City 225 rake with the APT-inspired Mark IV coaches, the power cars (Locomotives) would have been at each end similar to the current Pendolino sets rather than in the center which would have compromised safety evacuation and access reasons. Despite it's brutal and unfair demise a huge amount of data and experience was gleaned by this limited-life class, we know most of the reasons why it was quietly withdrawn, mostly political and mostly for cost reasons as alternatives were sought based on the intense research undertaken. The Class 370 unit at Crewe can at least sit there with pride knowing she has contributed toward a faster, safer and efficient method of travel, and to be preserved gently as her descendants imperiously rush by. :-)
Thanks for the video.
Good to see Bill again after all these years. I worked with him up to 85 when I left BR and went into nuclear decommmisioning.
I had great fun driving the APT during test runs up to Carlisle at the weekends, nice bit of nostalgia for me.
And Bill if you see this, it's the overcoat kid ;-)
Despite it's incredibly short life, I think the APT has become something of a legend.....in a similar way that the Flying Scotsman, Mallard, and Blue Diesel Pullman are. It seems to have acquired 'mythical' status over the last 30 years. I was a truly amazing and revolutionary train that was too far ahead of its time and the money just wasn't there to keep investing in it. Remember our railways were state owned and run. There was no private sector involvement to provide funding.
Rob Tyman yes and the private sector didn’t think it worth investing in and bought foreign locos and MUs. Good old privatisation.
Fascinating video! And good on the people at Crewe for taking care of such a unique unit.
Pure Gold!
Thank you so much for publishing this. B-)
Fantastic video; thanks for uploading it.
It seems like the train itself already had in-cab signalling. So the train could operate upto 250kmh, just what's left is flexible speeds prepared for the APT if the fourth light is red. APT, brought down. Intercity 250, just on paper. Intercity 225, couldn't get the tilting on.
Excellent little documentary, very, very well made, and a great insight from one of the old BR guys. Thanks very much!
Excellent.
Once again,
This is priceless stuff: Bill's asides are the stuff of social history, unavailable anywhere else,,,
Congrats!
i like this train a whole lot..i hope they get it running soon..i am getting the hornby version very soon..awesome video of an awesome train!!
Loved the video
Really enjoyed this video.
Awesome !
Excellent video.
Somebody let this man drive the APT-P in Train Simulator!
@mikebeckettvids
Dear Mike.
Thank you for the comments. It's great people like it. Even if it was just something we filmed on the side when working on the "A Story Of Steam" project.
Thanks again = )
Very interesting to watch.
Nicely done.
Brilliant that!
What a great video :-)
Beautiful British Loco❤
1:08
such a beautiful logo,
as should be expected from
top British graphic designers-world class leaders.
it may be that the letters blend into each other
to convey speed, ie theyre going so fast the letters
havent had time to catch up
Fantastic train seen it at crewe brains done a top job of looking after the train a Fantastic British icon
Amazing as seen in cab the max speed is 125 the same as HST and the claimed top speed is 140 mph which is the same as the HST achieved on a speed run. The only reason APT was a failure was with regard to leaning around corners. The question is: had the tilt mechanism for APT been locked off then would APT have had as long and successful service record as HST? Unfortunately we will never know. Two things are certain in 2022, APT is still a thing of beauty and HST is a legend of rail transportation.
Very good this
@FM60260
Hi there.
It is located at the Crewe Heritage Centre and is indeed open to the public. Both for looking and entering it. There is a little museum on board with information, photos, models etc for the APT project.
Well worth checking out. There's more info on the Crewe Heritage Centre's website I believe.
Hope that helps. All the best!
i seen this train today and it brought me here.. i was wondering why there was a bunch of cool trains together near crew station
i think i may have been there. is there a tesco around there somewhere if there is ive sat in the cab of the apt
Very well done. Too bad to see the trainset rusting away on a siding...:(
Ok, so it's highly unlikely this will ever return, but when rail companies make new (fast) trains, I wish they would produce something like this. Awesome design.
Another world beater, BUT in the THATCHER era.
I know a couple of ex BR Derby engineers who rode on APT when only BR employees could ride on it for their views on ride quality.
Both told me it was very good !!
THATCHER British Industry Murderer.
we want to recreate the photograph that launched the pendos in 2002, the APT and the pendo lining up together, it could be done but we would have to be quick and wait for the pendo service to Liverpool and hope its going slow enough !
Where did u get the music from?
@david40686
Two power cars for the APT remain. One is at the NRM Shildon and the other can be seen in this video. Most clearly at 01:08
yes one power car at 1:08 for sure know pete watermann said he took a complete set from BR to hide when the fall out from the APT was kicking off would be nice apt vs pendolieno
interesting stuff
how good would it be to get this running again
I visited here on Sunday and loved it. One question though, on the floor of the APT is a metal plate which looks like a large brake but I was wondering if this is a dead man's handle and if the pressure is taken off it, the train will brake?
Hey Michael. I can give you a lot of info on this speaking as a driver now as well.
That is correct. It is known as the Drivers Safety Device, or DSD for short. It has to be kept depressed at all times whilst the train's directional switch is in forward and the train is in motion. On older stock, the moment you take your foot off the pedal, the emergency brakes will apply.
On more modern stock however (I say modern... 90s onwards and any modified), there is another function of it. There's also something called the Driver Vigilance Equipment, DVE. This is an alarm that sounds if the controls aren't touched or moved for a minute. When it sounds, the driver has to momentarily release the DSD pedal and depress it again to reset the alarm. Look at it as the train basically saying "Driver are you still conscious?". With this addition, the DSD doesn't activate the moment a driver takes their foot off. It'll usually have a 2-3 second wait. On top of that, if the DSD is released or the DVE is not reset, then the buzzer will continue to sound for about half a minute. At which point the onboard radio will sound an alarm in the cab, and if that isn't acknowledged the radio will then send out an emergency message to the signal box to alert them that something has happened to the driver and assistance is required.
This is all so if the driver were to become incapacitated for which ever reason - either falling out of the seat or at the controls with the foot on the pedal, then the train will always be brought to a stand and someone being made aware.
If you're ever on a train like a multiple unit and sitting in the front coach behind the driver, you may sometimes hear the DVE alarm go off, along with all the other alerts and warnings in the cab - and maybe the occasional profanity from drivers being stuck at red signals or running on yellows ha ha.
It's all incredibly fascinating the amount of safety systems involved and how it all works. Not to mention all the other systems onboard trains.
@@safirgroup4600 Thank you for your detailed answer. It is amazing the different systems they have in place. One thing that shocked me was how sparse and hard the cabin was, it was a purely functional thing. The seat looked like something I wouldn't want to spend 5 minutes on, let alone 3 hours. I don't know if they have improved but after a quick search on a Pendolino cab video, I can see the dash still looks like it was made by Fisher-Price with big hard coloured buttons and a name like 'Mt First Train Cab. I guess we are spoiled by the insides of cars, buses and trucks these days but even a Bombardier Tram cab looks way more inviting. I don't know if this is intentional, after all the last thing you want is the driver getting too comfy but it is still something I wonder about.
Originally an American project they had no need for it as the tech was 'inadequate'. We had the biggest single advantage though. Supercomputers. It was re-engineered by RR and was found to be very reliable and very powerful but also very expensive. So the rocket motor found another use, collaborating with the French and the Italians for a multi-stage rocket. On nearly every launch something went wrong. The British stage worked *every* time. The other stages always had something go wrong.
They kept running the prototypes in service
for a few years I believe
Now that our railways are no longer state owned and run, I don't see why this cannot become a reality. It would be amazing to see an APT run on British train tracks again. The train seems to have assumed almost mythical status. Is there a British train more rare out there?
:( cant believe you done this vid
a old driver who still knows his stuff now days a young driver is a total cowboy
What a top bloke,and to think the APT was shelved because it didnt quite work first time out,I wonder if they will shelve the 70's because they keep setting themselves alight ?,I doubt it
will it ever run
A Future restoration to main line project?
I live here!!!!
Inside the train???? :P
This train is as beautiful as the Concorde, but did got it's golory.
Crewe men were only on APT for about a year.
Can the public actualy go and see it or is it stored out of view?
It was too good though according to some and took away all feeling of lateral G-force. As a result it made some passengers feel queasy. This would have been corrected with some minor tests and adjustments, simply by removing 2degrees of tilt. The result would have been effectively the ride you get on the Pendo's today.
I was under the impression that it was corrected. Not sure why the existing APT set(s) weren't allowed to continue in service with limited further investment in a similar way to the Southern Region Bulleid Double Decker trains (in service from 1949 - 1971 despite their shortcomings).
Alot of money wasted but for the knowledge gained, some of which was incorporated into the Class 91 Intercity 225 project.
would be lots to do yes but where theres a will theres a way
Ted heath did NOT make the same mistake with RR's RB211 though - at least he had some balls to support it all the way through, Trent AWB and XWB wouldn't exist and Airbus would otherwise be heading to GE in the 'States or even a French company to provide all of their units. Trent AWB is considered the most efficient engine in the world! - eezy1972 - I'll send you a youtube link for Blue Streak.
APT was a head of its time...
Hi Scott, its not rusting to death has the coaches are made from aluminium so wont rust, fortunatly. Its in very good condition considering it went out of service 26 yrs ago, but like yourself i would love to see it "out there" but until i win the lottery or we have a very rich and generous person come along, im afraid its stuck where she is.
Even the bogies are aluminium alloy I believe which I was impressed by (London Transport experimented with Aluminium bogies too some time ago now).
WHERE IS THIS TRAIN AND WHEN CAN I SEE IT
It's at Crewe Heritage Centre. Just parked up in a siding. You see it on the way past into Crewe.
Was the idea at the time to standardise the control layout so it was same as hst? it looks the same?
tpvalley Yes so they built three sixteen car trains to do it
a damn shame. made in the days when Britain could still make things. some decent investment would have made it work
Tory Government mate.
is there a train in one cab ???????????????????
if we renationalise the railways and bring back our infrastructure I hope we build more of these and the intercity 250 but time will tell.
southeastern failways why would they there’s more advance and modern trains now.
Advanced passenger train, was so advanced it lasted 5 minutes.
actually waterman had nothing to do with the APT, BR stored it over Crewe ETD for around 2 yrs then it was moved to the Heritage centre, where it still remains. If you listen to what he says on certain videos he says " he" had to hide it for 10 yrs as part of the agreement, man he dont half talk crap !
Max speed of 155MPH
The APT is the basis of most modern high speed trains, as ever, British engineers were way ahead. It was brainless BR managers that cut short the most iconic train of all time. However, it did make the HST 125 class 253 (now 43) the icon it still is. What a shame. They are both icons in their own way. I miss the APT and what she could have been. I say, bring her back, a few refinements, and she is still ahead!
clearly there the opinion of an expert in such things....
Poor APT, must be lonely as the only existing train unit , why on earth British rail did'nt roll these train unit out on the network is beyond me. hope they get this unit out for a spin soon, it just sitting there rusting death.
A pity we sold it onto the Italians - we were just so close to having it totally perfected by a few more months.
They already had their own active tilting train technology; they purchased some of the APT features to improve on their existing design.
she was ahead of her time because the onboard technology wasn't good enough to handle how they wanted to run the train, it's like trying to access the net on a pocket calculator, lol. still sad that she could do 155mph yet our own tilting virgin flagships had to be bought in from abroad and can only do 125 - like diesels built in the uk in the 70's could do!
Microwaves??
Yes presumably in the kitchen.
berghaus
JAGUAR
Only spectacular by the fact that the project was rushed through at the end - It was 95% complete and was in test phase. The government said they were getting fed up with putting money on it and decided to sell it to the troubled Pendolino project- on the cheap I might add.Months later everything was signed off. And now we are buying back what we invented... . so in that sense, like Rolls Royce Blue Streak was sold off to the French for Arianne, yes it was another spectacular British failure.
Seem as though your a minority, and if you knew what this train produced through its test phases perhaps you wouldn't be so cynical. For a start we sold the tilt idea to the Italians, the power cars went onto produce the class 91s and pantographs on to the class 90s etc. some joke eh???
The Italians had their own active tilting train technology; they purchased some of the APT features to improve on their existing design.
The APT used ASEA electric motors, presumably 3 phase while Class 91 used state of the art DC motors and control equipment. Other features of the APT power cars were used in the Class 91 such as housing the motors remotely to keep track forces low (low unsprung mass).
It seems like the train itself already had in-cab signalling. So the train could operate upto 250kmh, just what's left is flexible speeds prepared for the APT if the fourth light is red. APT, brought down. Intercity 250, just on paper. Intercity 225, couldn't get the tilting on.
TheAmir259 yup, it was called C-APT. Probably one of first in cab signalling in British train that time