The Open baffle speaker experiment continues.
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- čas přidán 28. 03. 2021
- So, here we continue the OB Experiment. Just to start at the VERY simple beginning I created a pair of speakers by cutting 2 round holes in 2 flat square slabs I did this on purpose to leave lots of room for improvement. My intent is to determine lines of how far does it go, or how far can we take it . These experiments are designed to help us determine the value of whats being marketed to us by the mainstream audio industry. The question behind this experiment is how important is a loudspeakers cabinet ? The cabinet on many occasions is the most expensive part, and the subsequent question how hard adn or expensive is it to make a great sounding speaker , and of course how important is the individual driver in this equation ? Sop come along for the fun !
Cool experiment. I have a community workshop shop near me that I’d like to start using their tools to build some diy speakers. I’ll probably get woofers etc. from parts express too. Thanks for the vids
You bet Max, Rock on Bro.
That punch definitely comes through! Sounds great!
I've been messing with OB designs for a couple months using spare drivers, spare crossovers and foam insulation boards. Funnily enough, I've found room treatment to be much more important than Linkwitz makes it out to be. I had all sorts of mid-high distortion/sibilance that has all but disappeared after adding Roxul S&S panels along the front wall, 6ft to the rear of the baffles. Cleaning up the rear wave (2khz-16khz) made a big improvement in soundstage clarity.
Its got me looking into hybrid dipole/IB designs bahahah 😁
Thanks for the video and the food for thought!
This was really interesting. 😮
Kicking off my Saturday morning grooving and reminiscing to my high school days to Rosanna. Rossana had talent! Thanks Mikey!
Yeah she did. She was a real Fox. ;- )
Very cool! You could also attach a left and right side MDF panels (side wings) piece attach them at 90 degrees to the front panel. Take measurements and adjusting them to different angles like GR Research does for their DIY kits, they have a 3rd Party company cut out the speaker driver holes from MDF panels on a CNC Machine
Do you think that a pair of 18inchers will go to low 30Hz or low 40Hz? In a 400sqft room?
Very cool man, even your OCD calmed down after you turned the volume up very clearly - seriously and I’m not being derogatory at all ✌🏽 brother 🇦🇺
Thanks man, I calm down when music is is playing for sure.
Clean bass. I had never thought i would even consider making an open baffle. I do now
Yes, and this was an example of what a simple style with zero calculation or design.
Hey.
Couldn’t find anything for 21 woofers, can show where did you buy them from?
Thank you
I like your premise but frankly you have discovered why OB is good - they are fast and dipole. You do not need high end high power upstream amps and tubes are fine. That is less relevant. The physics of OB just works. And these are not "cheap" I have built some OB's that are amazing for sub $500 all in - that are more than enough for most rooms . 15" LF drivers are enough. Full ranges are ok but either compression horns or dipole ribbons are better. And try H for the frames they do work better. Active X over is the right idea Mini DSP HD is only 200. What you don't see here is placement is key. The fun in this is experimenting with the designs and drivers. You will see different results but you will still keep the slam speed and the dipole benefits. I am off boxes forever. Remember the old theaters? They mounted many Altec 604's on the sides of the screens - no boxes and they drove them with tubes and they sounded fantastic.
No, they didn't sound fantastic in old theaters. Also theaters do things because they're inexpensive to do and not because doing so will make things sound better.
There’s quite a following and some good samples of these around, fascinating cf commercial products.
But there is no supply chain commercially for these
What's how much of difference between 200$ behringer crossover and that K231 Stereo 3-Way Active Crossover.
Did you take your plywood to a shop with a CNC machine to cut the holes? OR did you take 1/2 the diameter of the drivers and drill a screw in the middle of where the holes would be cut out, attaching a string that’s 1/2” of the whole’s diameter to pencil and the other end to the screw. to draw a perfect circle. Use a jigsaw to cut out the hole.
You made that open baffle way costlier than it needed to be to try something out lol
Have you seen what's in that room, this is a relative tuppence!
It looks like open baffle is the way to go. The looks suck for WAF rating but the sound is amazing - fast, tight and clean without resonance. Your setup there might be good for movies also man, with open baffle subs
I have a pair of Tang Band 5" FR drivers mounted on a slab of 1" solid oak (8"X24") along with a sub. The sound is epic with impressive imaging, sound stage and live music impact unlike any of my other "box" speakers.
There you go ! You nailed it !
Great effort dough for those with lesser budget and are upcoming starters. Yes they didn't cost much, BUT look at your excellent gear making these even to this level. Its just my take bro. Please don't forget to drop by when you come to CR next time. For around the same price my current system I built will make your jaws drops. Gracias Mickey
where are you again ? by Arenal ?
@@OCDHIFiGuy I had moved to Sarchi and LOVE IT. Starting my reference system now. Wait till you hear it. Its a totally different tech, and sounds just amazing. The house is so well insulated so I can play at any volume to evaluate my progress. I hope this INSANE what I call WU-RUS situation ends. You are welcome anytime. Not only you systems grows better, but your hair as well jajajaja. Tuanis
@@obudaifourty9 Sarchi ? Ahhh mucho Muebles, no ? Artisanos. Bueno !
Puro Diezes! ( you know that one ? ) i forgot are you a native Tico or did you move there from somewhere else?
@@OCDHIFiGuy No hermano soy un Ungaro retired here after living in Jew Jersey and mostly PA for 39 years. I saw whats coming (since I lived under communism, when I left Hungary it was still under that IDIOTIC system) and came here. Last time I message you a few weeks ago I lived in Grecia. I LOVE it here.
I’d be curious how these do for home theatre. I feel like they’d out perform a lot of pricier options.
yes, would not
need subs, thats for sure.
I was wondering... What woofer are you using? I've tested quite a few 'Non Ideal' woofers in open baffle with good success but with much cheaper electronics. Can't afford electronics anything close to what you have but I do enjoy analyzing and testing drivers. If you could let me know I'd appreciate it. Take care!
Datyton Audio theres only one 21 in the
$300 range
OB is my preference. One reason is the money is usually going to the drivers and XOs, instead of the cabinet, which are expensive when designed to be inert. I have owned Accoustat 2 +2s, Magnepan 3.5Rs, and over the last 3 years Emerald Physics KCIIs (Clarity caps and WireWorld OCC wiring) , now have 3,4s + 2 SVS powered 12" subs, and still waiting on 2.8s with double 15s, hopefully my last speaker upgrade
Maggies NEED a crossover rework. We did one for Mike a couple years back and it transformed the sound.
i get it, but if you build your own cabinets you can achieve more. but yes open baffle does fill the room better, but at the cost of having to make it very very loud and massive amplification to get it...plus your room needs to accommodate the speaker. they both have their place but OB is just not the end all be all that people hype
the crossover however will make the largest impact, i can absolutely agree on spending money there though.
One woofer that is proven to work well in IB configuration is the Eminence Alpha 15".
The hardware quality in those elements is way better than some of the expensive speakers you are comparing them to. Many expensive speakers uses mid tier drivers.. Also when going up in size you get a lot more free performance in some regards, but lobing and other aspects become worse. Often speakers like these can sounds washed out and is higly affected by the room dampening because of the lobing effect from the center to center distance of the drivers is way to big. So the rear wave doesn't sound the same as the front wave. I would like to see a large coaxial driver with a large open planar tweeter in the middle. The voicecoil have to be in the 7+cm in diameter so the planar driver would fit inside. That way the rear wave would be equal the front wave. Anyone know of a company that makes something like this?
It must be the recording or mic. But it sounds bad? I'm a massive open baffle fan and busy building a set. But I don't understand why it sounds.... Bad?
It does not . Im saying that this good sound is as "bad" as it can get because this test was to form a reference for how hard it is to make a killer OB speaker. what we found here is a monkey can make a decent sounding OB speaker. Next lets see how hard it is to make a GREAT one .. ;-)
Open baffle's biggest problem is placement in the room. Ideal position is centered between "front and rear" walls" ,.....how's that going to work for you?
Hi Mike, could you please point to me the track and the album you used to test your "experiment" with classic music? Definitely not a midnight track if you have neighbors:)
Do you think that the the addition of the open baffles subwoofers you already have, just to keep it with the same "technical approach", would add some notches to its performance? If you decide by any chance do a new video about this experiment, could you run SVR's Tin Pan Alley please?
Best Regards,
I think adding 6 -12" subs would defeat the purpose of using a 21 on the open baffles. The idea with the 21 is to eliminate the subs. To add the 12's would mean they do the infra zone and I simply dont think they would do it well. , it may be interesting to test but I have to kind of have a reason. In other words I have an aim of making a killer inexpensive speaker to sell along with my line and I would not ever want to sell the 12's to go below the 21's, why not I just ask myself. What if it is revelatory ?, dont have a closed mind Mikey.. You knw better then anyone sometimes things work very well that have no business working at all.. .. OK Ill Try with SRV.
Nice what are those 21in woofer you have there
Dayton Audio from Parts Express
The design is not "stupid". I think it is simple but cool. Swap the left and right speakers so the highs are closer to each other and imaging will improve. You tried to prove OB was easy and inexpensive and you did it. Thumbs up!
Id rather infuse a little of my mind into it and will show it soon
shouldnt these get a dedicated bass, mid and tweeter to get a full range? I also get a hollow vibe others have mentioned. but definitely its a promising design
Ill listen to see if I can hear what you two mean , can you gibe me a time code of a passage where its very obvious to you ? , make sure you are using headphones. There is a dedicated bass mid and tweet on these .. Its a 21 inch bass , its an 8 inch mid upper right and left then theres a ribbon tweeter mounted in cardboard hanging off the left and right sides
@@OCDHIFiGuy aaaahhh, now that you pointed it out! I couldn’t see it at first.
missing the highs - a tweeter is recommended and to get it perfect (close to) let add a second one to fire back to get a dipole like directivity pattern.
Totally different design but I agree..
Hah yea wondered the same. 8k for an open baffle get out of here. Good stuff.
There it is
Hey hermanito Mickey...... just dropped by again. Part Express's lowest Qts. large driver like this most likely 18" is around Qts. 4. The minimum for a great open baffle (woofer) should be 5 to 7 or EVEN higher. Tuanis
Bottom-up pricing of audio manufacturers is usually around 5 times parts cost. So this unit on the market may go for $8K. (Clayton Shaw has smashed that rule, though with his very afforable Caladans.) Also, a fully fleshed out speaker system would require drivers that are specifically made for OB: the restoring force would be higher to compensate for the lack of "spring" in the captured air of a speaker cabinet.
I heard they've already gone up
do the gr research subs add the last note in bass and can you feel it. can they keep up with La scala to add bass. your Open baffle speakers sound good but way to big for my room.
Hi Gene, the OB design was to show people what an OB sounded like with zero design at all. to give us am idea of hpow hard they are to make and it they are worth what people charge for them. So I started with zero design. Not bad.. You will see my next project where I add design to it . GR adds the right amount of bass and they have great adjustment ability, I will be trying some new 21 inch designs soon. If you cant feel those youre dead ..lol
yes its so amazing how with OB speakers the ONLY way to hear it is to be excessively loud. i love your experiment though, and thanks for using such high end gear upstream because without it your comparison is moot. so many reviewers do the opposite, amazing speakers on crap gear than criticize the speaker lol. love this man keep it up.
The sounds seemed smeared to me as well, especially the lows, the bass.
It's not my kind of sound either. Big hump around 200 Hz and nothing below 100 Hz. For speakers that big, I don't see it being worth it.
@@GersbermsYou need to compensate for dipole rolloff for the bass and that 200 Hz peak from the the augmentation with the back and front waves at 200 Hz.
What are u use in for drivers young man/
Daytom Audio 21" and AER 8" full range
@@OCDHIFiGuy Which BD speaker did u use young man?...They appear to have some excellent specs and ,of course,German made quality to boot!...anything over 100db can be driven easily with flea power...use yer lil pocket transistor radio to drive with and impress the hell outta yer clients....
@@OCDHIFiGuy AER full range are not $1,600 per pair but rather $16k ;)
The audiophiles FOS i built my own open baffle speAkers to go along with McIntosh system
So they sound very good... with $75K worth of electronics. Now use those same electronics with the big rig: the subs and the big panels. Now THAT would be a very interesting comparison.
Hi Craig thats normally how I have them hooked up and the difference would be very big of course.
I don't understand the jokers that say you can't hear anything over a CZcams video. Is it the best way to experience what something sounds like, no, but I'm using these stupid little plastic, powered JBL desk speakers that aren't loud, but I jumped involuntarily when the first note hit. They are probably the same people that say room treatment is 90% of your sound, yeah you can smear and have resonance, but it still sounds like a good system. You can tell just standing silently in an extremely challenging room, sometimes you have to move your ears in a room to fix. Prisoners sure were quiet. Good info, I got some "full-range" Mark Audio speakers with free cabinets, haven't gotten around to trying other enclosures or non-enclosures with them yet
Rock on Bernese Mountain Dog !!
I find it oddly humorous to watch the same experiments that I performed 34 years ago. 😂
Lol. You don't know that things cycle ? My GF just got some Bell Bottoms. And the newest Porsche is NOT electric.
@@OCDHIFiGuy I mean it. It is beautiful watching the hobby continue! It's also reminding me just how old I've become!
Those really do sound engaging, and pleasant to jam out to, and the classical had balls, especially when cranked up a bit. Nothing against him, but I’ve often wondered how much R&D someone like Clayton Shaw put into Spatial Audio before bringing a speaker to market. Maybe it was a lot? I just dunno. I could be totally off base. Pure Audio Project with their modular kinda thing, seems rather cool.
Yes, its a great idea truly, Im pretty sure Clayton has tried a million different things . His recent speaker seems to have hit the mark, as people dig them and I think hes selling the shit out of them. Give me a few years trying everything under the sun and you can count on an innovative killer design . This is a test mule. just to start with absolutely zero design elements knowing this is the worst things will ever sound, so the fact that its even listenable is a surprise to me the fact its halfway decent is nuts... lol I will put some Mikey into it now for proto. Goes a little somethin like this. The 21 will go sideways in a ripole folded cab and a 20 inch or so wide plank (baffle) will stick up on its own above the separate sub cab, yet be mounted to the sub cab, and that baffle will hold 3, 8 inch midbass in a vert line next to a planar magnetic mid and next to that a ribbon tweeter. Ill tell you my intention with the design over the phone. it will be a proof of concept.
Just a casual observation larger drivers/radiation surface and larger voice coils = better sound
not necessarily it equals more sound but speakers need Amps and a DAC. My rig sounds so good because of the quality of components mixed with the quality of the speakers plus the cables and room treatments plus the AC power conditioning and extra grounding .
Catching up on my mikeys
$1650/pair manufacturing cost would be $6600 retail.
A HiFi enthusiast that listens to real music? Its nice to see. The sound isn't my cup of tea; though, it isn't bad.
WOW
LOL I am so curious when the day will be you break the pattern.
Peruvian flake or oil base?
it was Diesel Fuel this time around... out of a Locomotive . Just call me Casey.
$22,000 for a DAC??? Oh my.
No, it's $26,000 right now and I'm sold out.
I disagree. Those speakers sounded very hollow. Almost like they were placed inside a glass cabinet. The classical music was less offensive and sounded dramatically better. Probably because the music has no bass. The old jazz 🎺 amplified that hollow sound. But it was more difficult to determine how much is the speaker vs the crappy recording. Really crappy recording. Shelby Lynne's "Just a Little a Lovin' " (popular audiophile test track) revealed that hollow sound again. Really difficult to listen to. Not enjoyable at all. The bass was much richer, but just a bit distorted.
OK so theres gotta be one of ya , did you listen with headphones ? I also noticed
some distortion during the classical, though we did not hear it as it was my microphones on the Samsung phone being redlined /overdriven . It was very easy to listen to over here which was a huge surprise. Remember this was a lets start with zero design elements experiment. Ill throw some design at the next one .
@@OCDHIFiGuy A little EQ and that "hollow" sound would disappear.
it's about the microphones as well. Best idea to me would be to use a dummy head microphone for the record and headphones for the playback.
@@ahnenpost5237 yep I've found it incredibly difficult to get the "open baffle sound" to record and reproduce accurately. They all come out a bit "hollow", regardless of proper measurements proving the bass is present. They really have to be heard in person (in the same room with the same placement) to fully gauge the sound.
@@lllllllllllllllllllll1lll1 you can capture the sound with a dummy-head - and headphone for proper playback.
I can send you an open baffle for around $7-800 that will surprise the hell out of you. Especially with a la dolce audio UA2.5 amp at $700. Pair it with an ares II and hold on to your pants. Just need a good sub
I've been saying spend the least on speakers for ages. Some people won't have that. So many expensive speakers are fairly simple boxes with inexpensive drivers.
Its not the just the drivers is the crossover network, Cabinet Rigidity, and the quality of the Caps, Inductors, etc. (Air Inductors much better, then crappy Iron Core! that are used and not using dental floss thickness copper wire that's jacketed with PVC!
Sounds out of phase through my speakers.
Interesting..
Swap the speaker positions...and listen...
This is an example of OB with no design. Next OB will have design then we can play with position. These are not meant to be taken seriously..
@@OCDHIFiGuy Nice to see you doin some experimenting...doesn't matter where you start as long as u start...will u be experimenting with h frames,etc;...I use an EMS model LB8EX ...an 8 inch field coil driver...I likee these because by varying the bias voltage on these you can 'tighten up"/dampen the diaphram when used in OB...I hear that the LB 12 EX is an awesome performer in OB....if I could afford them I would have gone that route...still might have to use a 15" in OB to get any amount of bass...prior to these I used the excellent sounding Dayton Audio PS 220-8 8" FULL RANGE neodium drivers in OB9(they are excellent for this app)...
I've come through the "speaker vs the rest of the system" deal myself Mikey - - I've run 900 dollar Polks in my reference system that I got for some stupid amount, like less than 600 bucks, absolutely love'd 'em - toe tappin', the whole deal - - are my reference speakers "better", well, of course, ya - but the music translated fantastically through those Polks and because they were dynamic drivers vs my panels, there were, no shocker actually, some aspects that I actually liked better than my reference - anyway, I really learned something from doing that and I agree with your suggestion that all the emphasis on speakers may just be a bit of BS.
It certainly has come in to question, huh ? I suppose I should try to find a speaker that sounds like crap in the rig... like lets make sure the rig cant make everything sound good... Anyone got some late model Focal or KEF or Sonus ? I have my doubts about them . Lets see if theyre founded ..
So if you round 1650 up to to 2000, then double it (the manufacturer wants to make a profit) to 4000, then double it again (dealers like to make more than the manufacturer) to 8000, then add shipping and your pretty close to 10,000. lol
Sorry but I do not see your point of being cheap speakers. 1600 dollars, come on you can go to GR Research and buy an open baffle kit for alot less and they would sound 80% better. It clearly shows you didn't put any effort into this. There even tube videos that show your basic design for 500 all in that still sound 80% better.
Always been about the music .Put a rig together enjoy .like all hobbies lots of BS. I always remember being told it was the source that was most important when I was younger. There were older people that told me it's the speakers that are important. Built rigs since I was 13 for lots of people who like different types of music. I always said that it should play anything and sound killer. To me that's the sign of a good system you just want to keep listening to music for hours and hours. I remember being at a show and this system was playing, the guy at the door asked are you coming in no it's not doing it for me I told him. He was not happy ,Probem was it did not sound good. I happen to be going past later and they had some floyed on so I thought why not .Don't know what the speakers were ,some weird design but the sound was no where near good, the guy demoing was not happy that I told him it sounded bad .
Its unreal what some companies peddle as good sound. Its more unreal when those companies have big names and the people listening trust that its good sound as well and are taught that bad sound is good sound.. .Some brands seem to have grown that way. Usually it starts with a killer review from the reviewers where it used to give the company a landslide.
I don't think they sounded very good.