"A Machine PERFECT for Making PCBs at Home" Is what they said!
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- čas přidán 18. 04. 2024
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In this video we will be having a closer look at the Carvera CNC machine. I initially got interested in it because the makers of the CNC claimed that it is perfect for milling PCBs at home. So I obviously had to check it out ;-) So this video is kind of like a review in which I show you all the good and bad things about the Carvera and ultimately show you whether it is truly capable of making PCBs at home. Let's get started!
Thanks to JLCPCB for sponsoring this video.
Visit jlcpcb.com to get professional PCBs for low prices.
Thanks to Altium for sponsoring this video.
0:00 Why Carvera CNC Machine?
1:30 Intro
2:17 Unboxing
3:47 First Power Up & Problems
5:35 Testing the Example Projects
7:37 BIG PROBLEM: Missing Software
8:16 PCB Milling
11:23 Verdict - Věda a technologie
I found it to be very reliable to use the laser to etch PCBs instead of trying to route them. I spray a coat of black enamel spray paint. Laser etch the circuit, then into copper etchant like the usual method. I use a cheap 200 dollar solid state laser.
Good idea :-)
Yeah I was wondering if some kind of laser or optical process would give better results, though I guess if you're drilling at all you'd have more tool offsets to worry about.
As an eastern european "cheap" and "200 dollars" don't mix too well for me 😅
@@YoureNotGettingMyNameDolan It's cheap compared to the multiple thousands of dollars that many lasers cost.
@@skylerlehmkuhl135 oh
The whole point of doing DIY PCBs is that you're done in a couple of hours, rather than waiting a month from China. You can do iteration after iteration. Then once you get it right, you order from the cheap chinese companies.
That is correct :-)
Sure if your cool with giving away your work. Surely your aware China takes copies of everything sent to built there for technology.
@@1014p I would never send anything there to rando PCB companies if I was designing something for sale, but like it or not, nearly everything which you want assembled for cheap would have to be sent there anyway.
It doesn't take a month for JLPCB maybe 2 weeks tops. It literally took longer for me to receive PCBs from OSHpark located in the US than it did from from JLPCB. I will say that OSHPark's silkscreen is amazing and the cheap silkscreen option at JLPCB doesn't do a great job with fine detail graphics but it's not a big deal and works perfectly fine for footprints.
@@atomicskull6405 I ordered something from jlcpcb just the other day and lead time was 28 days. Probably has to do with location (I'm in the US).
Even if it took 2 weeks, that's 2 weeks vs 2 hours.
What a prototyping powerhouse! If I'd just do pcb's I'd probably keep looking, but if I needed a whole suite, I'd go with this! This and a 3D printer could make anything.
That's a nice unit. A good review also. I use a cheap CNC for PCBs if I want one and also only single sided. I've learnt lots of techniques to make the cutting work well. I use Diptrace to design my boards. From there I use bitmaps for the track exports into Vectric 2D and then out to Mach3 for the cutting. I have made dozens of boards this way. Works a treat.
7days ago?
@@mojiburrahman3956 WHATTT
@@mojiburrahman3956 patreon
@@mojiburrahman3956 Black magic
@@mojiburrahman3956 Yes Patreon 🙂
Honestly the software missing is more a pro than a con for me, because it means you can use absolutely any program.
Having a propietary software could be the start of limiting the machine to operate exclusively with their software so you end up forcefully relying on them rather than just searching for other program to run, like already happens with some 3D printers
So long as they let you use any program and those options are available. Otherwise, you have a very expensive brick.
*cough* ChiTuBox *cough*
Yes, and then tomorrow when they stop making it, lose interest, or go under you own a $4000 brick.
I def agree on this.
I see your point, but there is value in having software that's bespoke to the machine from an end-user standpoint. It just *works* out of the box. Though I also feel it should allow G-code from any source provided it's set up for the machine.
Yeah, I've seen the downfall of many Kickstarter 3D printers by up-and-coming companies, being that they use proprietary software. They might look slick and professional on the outside but trade away a lot of practicality.
I am honestly impressed by this machine. I worked as a professional cnc CAM, CAD, 3D Modeling and 6 Axis CNC machinist for years but what I really want is a small tabletop machine that can do everything you've laid out in this video. I am 95% there to just ordering one of these.
I've been watching your videos for years but honesty my observation is that newer videos are not all that engaging than older videos. But all in all I appreciate your great work sir.🙏
Thank you Scott for taking the time and effort to look for these potential homemade solutions to making PCBs. I am hoping that as the technology develops something like the PCB maker you reviewed a couple of years back may improve and come down in price. $4700 (before tax and shipping) isn't exactly something a hobbyist can shell out. I'm hoping that it is just like 3D printers and the price will come down. I hope you keep looking for a good solution. I wonder if you might consider checking out a laser etched version like kwa mentioned in his comment below.
This sponsor or review video, is really nice. Its not perfect, but it had a lot of qualities that you really liked and could make good use of. Im excited to see the new projects you make with it!
EDIT: It is a review.
I was getting reasonable results with a modified 3040 and FlatCAM (double sided). This was down to SOIC without any levelling which is all I needed at the time. Though cheap boards and cheap cutters I found could tear out the surface material. I should retry now with my even more modded machine and sw levelling to see how well I can get down to TQFP64 :) Nice video, so hard to try to cover so many aspects in such a short time!
Since it comes with a laser: Is the lid blocking the laser light or is it basically like those open frame laser cutters when it comes to laser safety?
I just bought $100 worth of supplies for thermal toner transfer and ferric chloride etching. I'm still using EasyEDA to design and print the patterns to paper, but now I can produce the final PCB's myself in about an hour with drilling and via's. I used to be a CNC programmer while working through collage and would love to have a nice mill, but I'll still be doing the toner transfer method for my PCB projects. Why - because once you get the hang to it - it works! I'd say it's better then using a CNC, no matter how much they try to perfect it.
The more I check it out the better it seems! Amazeballs xD Brilliant piece of tech. Need to have this. Make absolutely anything
I have a Carvera. Was backer number 6. Love it, haven't done much pcb milling but it works when Im testinh things and dont want to wait a few days for a pcb, Also great for aluminum milling.
Very nice. I would suggest having a look at FlatCAM for milling, especially 2 sided PCBs. Works really well and was able to get all the holes to line up etc on a 2 sided PCB as well. Best of all its free
However, it is still beta and has some glitches from time to time. But it seems there is no anything better in open-source.
@@MSP757 yes it is , their motto is beta is always better 🤣🤣 The UI is pretty buggy to be honest, but the functionality works great for me, helps flip the gerber files around for milling the back side, even flip the holes around too so I can drill them last. Needs a bit of getting used to and not perfect, but works for me
You certainly cannot beat professional manufacturing with any diy/homemade machines/pcb's. That's my point,and I do not wanna argue with anybody.
Honestly watching this reminds me of how I used to proto boards and I don't miss it! Very grateful for overseas PCB houses being so cheap we don't have to deal with this anymore.
Like I always say, DIY is always fun and the best in some occasions!
Haha yes. Definitely useable in certain applications.
@@greatscottlab Yes!
This looks like a fantastic option for prototyping, combined with sending out for final product.
I think so too ;-) Still some software limitations but that will hopefully get fixed soon :-)
I had a question about the tool clamp size and type but found the answer on their site, so I'll leave the info here.
Comes with 1/8" spindle collet, 4mm, 6mm and 1/4" also available separately. The wireless probe tail shaft can be changed to suite the different sizes.
That UV exposure solder mask can be used with an additional mask that you print on a transparency film and lay over the circuit so you can prevent the UV exposure to the areas you want exposed pads. The unexposed mask can then be removed with solvents (acetone I think?) and the pads exposed without the additional milling operation.
The Carvera is expensive but is already a LOT cheaper than a comparable machine that has been on the market for a few years. I worked with the LPKF circuit board CNC for a while and those are a $30-60k machine. I went through the additional training classes they offered and still had issues with damage due to tool changer issues. It did produce nice boards when working right and it had decent software with good support so there is that.
I just appreciate the hard work you put in for us. Good video concept 👌. I love it.
Thank you so much 😀
I made a simple PCB for a passive crossover for a speaker im Building. Carved along the traces with a 90° v-bit and then added solder to the traces so they can handle more power.
That looks incredible! I wish I had the space for one and the time and imagination to come up with projects for it.
Looks very nice, I hope you get the issues ironed out. Thanks for sharing.
I've had great results from a generic "3040" ballscrew CNC that I've upgraded in three ways: 1) I replaced the odd spindle motor they provided with a high-quality 24000 RPM 3-phase spindle. 2) I swapped out the stock steppers and moved to closed-loop stepper/servos. 3) I added a probe input so I can capture a height map of the board before I ever cut it. Oh, and I chucked the printer-port stepper driver and went with a GRBLHAL networked controller that supports a ton of I/O and 5 axis. Anyway, the results are amazingly good, and definitely solid for creating your own boards, though obviously it's not going to add vias for you.
This is really a hobbiest machine at pro-sumer prices. I'd expect something a bit more refined for what they charge.
Yep, it gives off a strong Dremel vibe. There, I said it.
I enjoyed the fact that this particular video was sponsored by JLCPCB.
ha, ha
thank you from Morocco i learned lot of things from you and electro boom channels
Thanks for watching :-)
I like the new intro :) Thanks for showing us the machine.
I’m a machinist and I would really love to have a mill like this and the laser with it is really an awesome addition.
perfect machine is a dream.
the reality is that PCB manufacturing is a constantly evolving process with a lot of people constantly tweaking it to overcome different shortcomings stemming from software, mechanics and chemistry. this is why you should really rely on a manufacturer for any serious work
That is amazing! Love it!
wow nice video thanks Scott your the best
Nice! Your gonna be unstoppable!
Awesome and thoughtful review
I have a Workbee CNC and it was bought mainly for PCB prototypes. Just like you have said the software side is still very much work things out for your self and far from perfect. I can use it with decent results including double side and have made a few prototypes before sending away for pro boards to be made. This machine looks good and the tool change will save a lot of time.
For double sided, I imagine the “registration marks” (or zero X and Y starting positions) when flipping over must be near perfect. And the drilling of holes has to hit as close to dead center as possible.
@@stevebabiak6997 Depending on the complexity of the design yes it can be a problem to get it perfect. I use flatcam and it has a way to do it, but if you don't do it in the correct order everything will be wrong. It was a good 6 months of messing about before I had a good process to make boards.
Thank you for sharing
Thank you so much for this video!
You are welcome :-)
For soldermask you can use silkscreen screen. And for better solderability i use cold tinning ^^. And for the vias there are rivets :)
I worked as a biomedical engineer back in the 80's and I'd setup a system that did something similar. And boy, it was a booger to use. The mill was ok in the x & y axis, but z depth was controlled by a solenoid and thumb screw. The PCB had to be perfectly flat, or else. And, as far as I knew, router bits that small weren't available. A conductive ink was applied to the thru holes, then copper was plated to the boards in a plating machine . (Keeping the chemistry right was also a pain.) Then photo resist was hot rolled on from a carrier film, followed by normal photo resist procedures.
Took me many weeks to get the procedures down, and in the end, we never really used the system.
Better than running a test scoring scanner when I first started working, though.
This is a desktop mill. The build size is fine. The cost is less than Batam mill and unlike the Carvera they don’t have ATC.
Looks interesting! What was delivery time on the unit and how much did customs extort from you to get it to your door?
I've been developing CAM software designed primarily for CNC art/signmaking/engravings, and it works fine for PCB milling if you have a good file format that can be loaded in (i.e. images, vectors). It's called PixelCNC. It's still in beta and right now I'm working on a built-in tutorial system. If you have any suggestions for tutorials or need help with anything shoot an email to us.
Plated-thru holes, finish (HASL or ENIG), and solder-mask are must-haves for me. I can buy a LOT of top-quality PCBs from OSH-Park or PCBway for much less than the cost of a PCB milling machine.
Jlpcb is pretty awesome. I had a project that needed some custom pwm controllers. So I ordered the minimum amount of boards so I have 4 of those boards in a drawer that will probably never be used again. But I always save stuff because you never know when something will break. My philosophy is to keep spares around if you can. I can’t count the number of times I’ve saved the day because I healed on to a extra component for 15 years and they were no longer available and would have required a lot of work to integrate a newer version of the item into the system and sometimes it is almost impossible to integrate the new part.
Great video as always!
Thanks :-)
I recently got my first boards from JLC pcb and they worked great despite my questionable design!
Great to hear!
My last design from JLC was almost perfect except that - yet again - some of my holes were a bit too small. They fit each pin just fine but the ESP32 dev board has slightly angled headers already installed. The holes are just small enough that it’s really hard to get them installed :)
That’s one thing that I’d like about making them at home. I can fix mistakes more quickly.
A good alternative to coppercam is flatcam. I use it exclusively now when making prototype boards.
I built a rotary mill from scratch using Linux CNC on a PC I found on a rubbish dump(plus about $400 dollars in hardware). The reason I comment here about it, is that I use the Nefertiti bust, as you displayed, to test and tune the machine.
It's one thing to get good results from an example that has all the speeds and feeds set from you, it's another thing for the learning curve of figuring that all out for yourself. So I view your "I made this from scratch" a much more valid review.
I see a bunch of pads on the PCB either have the copper missing, or the mask not completely removed. Do you think this was an issue with the auto leveling? The speed/feed of the drag tip? uneven mask thickness combined with the drag tip?
use neutral oil for milling pcb, the result is perfect and more accurate :) i have a cheap cnc like 3018 and it works perfectly, and i love your channel !
Very interesting, thanks for the good content...
How would you compare the experience of milling a PCB to etching? I found the photoresist process to be painless and reliable in the past.
Thank you, I have two questions first when driiling the PCB,There is a metal base under PCB,will not broken as will touch the metal PCB,Second qustion are there protection from laser.Thanks
Thanks to you, I have made a functional plasma ball based off a 555 timer and mosfet! It really works well and I have it powered up at the moment and it's barely even hot and I hope it doesn't blow up sometime soon.
Thank you for all of your electronics basics and project videos!
-Jon.
Fantastic!
Thanks
വെയ്റ്റിംഗ് ആയിരുന്നു നിങ്ങളുടെ വീഡിയോയ്ക്കു വേണ്ടി 👍
this looks awesome. can't wait for this level of machine to get cheaper! :D
looks like an awesome machine. How is it with different materials, e.g. milling metal parts?
Your videos are great as always and in fact I have to thank you for your videos . They really helped me in my school project that is about 20%from my total grade and without your videos I don't think I would be able to make it. It was a small robot that measures the effects of climate change 🙂
That's great!
Wow, very cool. I think your review was good, I'm interested in getting one of these, I that's a lot of functionality for the price point. I could work around the issues while they polish everything up.
Glad it was helpful!
Is it possible to control that CNC with Candle? You could try using FlatCAM + Candle for the PCB stuff. It actually works really well.
Sounds like a good toll for rapid prototyping.
If you have an finished Design, I would go with an professionel Producer like JLC.
But during the Designphase there you have to: Try, fail and repeat until it works. Sunch an CNC sounds like an good option for multiple iterations.
Good for catching the little mistakes. We all make them, but having to modify and/or toss out a stack of PBCs because of a small mistake that you could have caught with a quick prototype, isn't good.
Looks like a nice machine, but those scratches would have upset me greatly if I had purchased it. Particularly on the cover!
Could you do testing on different PCB fabrication techniques, like professional from JLCPCB vs. CNC milled vs. DIY chemically etched?
I can put it on my to do list
Is this the easiest to use in term of home fabricated PCBs (other than using an etching solution approach)?
I did notice after laser etching, a bit of smoke escaping when you open the lid . Is there no extraction port to blow it outside (hopefully filtered)?
your video is so good and educational..love from bangladesh..
Thank you so much 😀
Awesome intro my dude :)
that's so cool, and i love your videos 🎀
Thanks :-)
8:50 This must be the perfect CZcams video, you used all three of your sponsors together!
Great video! I love seeing reviews on these types of products.
I would have liked more coverage on the safety features they have or haven't included for the laser engraving feature. Since they have it fully enclosed, they could have some sort of vapor filtration system, but that wasn't mentioned, so I'm not sure. I would also be curious if the lid material is rated for the frequency of their laser. There are a lot of companies adding laser engraving features to their products, but most of the time they fail to adequately account for the required safety features and I think that needs to be called out any time a review is done.
Looking at the website for the Carvera, it doesn't seem to have a separate system to control laser fumes, like a fan with exhaust tube or carbon filter to create underpressure in the enclosure. The dust extraction system seems to also really be just dust extraction, no carbon filter.
However, with how well the enclosure seems to close that should be quite easy to fix, either add a hole with filter or exhaust tube, or even just slap a fan with a carbon filter in there to just circulate the air within the enclosure and wait a few minutes before opening it after a job finishes.
Regarding laser frequency, they sell a separate 'laser protective cover', which replaces the plexiglas cover with a solid lid with a small window in it. So the plexiglass probably isn't laser-proof. It does come with presumably proper laser goggles, but they're just the kind that's a shop safety goggle with a laser filter, not like the diving-goggle type. I'd say it's not great, but by a long shot also not the worst for laser safety. The price and complexity is a safety barrier all in its own probably, a lot better than a €300 laser engraver from aliex without any enclosure and with questionable safety goggles, and probably not even an e-stop.
Will the carvera cam software allow the double sided PCB?
I haven't tried SMD boards at home yet. What am I seeing @1:15 following the soldering? What are the two probes with blue light doing? UV?
Love the automatic tool changer.
This is something I'd love to have, but I can't quite justify yet. I'm still trying to justify my laser cutter/engraver. :)
was the drill bit used to remove the solder mask from pads spring loaded? if not that is pretty impressive precision, milling the mask off without going through the copper is hard
A 4th axis and auto tool changer are super awesome.
4:11
Oh my god, cases with slanted io Or usb ports gives me nightmates. I had a case that was like this and my 40euro usb headphones kept breaking, I have spent 120 euros on many headphones and even the 3.5mm jack ones have the jack have a loose wires bcs of gravity making it slant and my usb headphones had the DAC in the usb itself as a board, the usb kept ripping off the boards WITH THE SOLDER PADS so I couldn't repair it. Seeing you use a pc case with slanted I/O gave me nostalgia
To prepare GRBL to GCODE PCBs I use Flatcam Beta 8.994, it is the absolute best software for that purposes and there are tons of videos on YT about how to use it. (it's a bit tricky to find the beta but not impossible)
UV light and Chemical etching can not be replaced by mechanical milling. Learned this very early on in my career.
Just a question if you have any thru-hole parts, what do you do about plated thru holes? How do you get signals from one side of the board to the other? What do you do about a silkscreen? PCB's are so inexpensive right now, and turnaround time are so fast that I just don't see the point of machining one yourself. You end up with a board that has design limitations and is of lower quality.
Was a nice video. Could you go a bit more into detail about the fabrication of the solder mask, or create a separate video about it? You apply the mask, cure it and then remove the cured mask from the pads? So if the machine is well calibrated, I would not remove any copper and would not have to create a mask for the solder mask and etch it but how do I calibrate the machine for such low tolerances as I modify the pcb when applying the solder mask. Not sure if my comment makes sense to you ...
Very informal video thanks (:
Glad it was helpful!
Looks like a decent enough mini mill; and having an ATC spindle helps set it apart from the typical 6040 style routers. However, for PCBs, I think I’m gonna stick with outfits like JLC, PCBWay, etc…
It'd be great for proving prototypes before sending off for them though.
Fully agree, why spend thousands of dollars and hours of time only to get a much worse product than what can be bought for very little money from a skilled company.
Could you have the CNC do a partial mill-through on the front of the board and the final cut on the back so you'd only have to flip the full board along vertical or horizontal axis for cutting?
JLCPCB wait time for me in Charleston South Carolina in the United States is now over three weeks and I still haven't received the package using the ground shipping. What they don't tell you is that if you want it super fast you're going to pay 30 or $40 more for the shipping. So it's more expensive than they lead you to believe.
It would be interesting to see all kinds of different pcb manufacturing technologies (classic, flexible, etc.) from you. Yes we can pay somebody to make a pcb, but wouldn't it be great to produce it themselves?
I will see what I can do :-)
@@greatscottlab :^)
But wouldn't that be disrespecting the all-mighty JLCPCB?
@@brandontechnerd Of course! You would be straying from the PCBway into the savannah where a wild Aisler could bite you in the ankle!
hohohoho omg nice! Might be the best desktop machine besides AdditiveProductionMachines. Very impressive. So complete
That machine looks awesome! I’ll bet they resolve those issues with firmware or software updates.
hah, man. this is almost my dream machine.
(i want to build one myself)
Definitely the features are paid for, they are certainly very useful and I would say that if it arrived better packaged it would be a good thing.
Like any complex machine, there are always adjustments to be made during installation.
Surely it is a nice top of the range, I dare say for semi-professional use, the hobbyist will hardly be willing to spend that amount to use it "three times a year" in all cases the range of accessories seems well developed even if the $ 299 for the PCB kit it seems to me a further increase in costs.
In the images I saw that the virgin copper plates due to their elasticity risk rising, to solve the problem you could try with double adhesive tape between the pcb and the work surface.
One thing to rationalize to reduce the movement of the spindle could be the zeroing of the height which could be done near the tool holder and not at the other end of the work plane, possibly if the zeroing did not concern only the Z axis it could be it is useful to place the tool holder to the left of the work surface.
I see you soon!
Thanks for the feedback :-)
Wow, $4000 is a lot of money but this machine still looks like it's a bargain considering all the features you get.
Ok, thanks for the feedback. Interesting opinions in the comment section :-)
Which photoresist and which uv-lamp did you use?
Great video! I would be interested to see your take on self-soldering circuits. Seen a few videos recently and I think it appears to be very promising tech for circuits with SMDs.
If by "self-soldering" you mean that the board has a built-in heater traces, then yes, it can work, but it's more of a party stunt than a way for you to avoid just using one or another straightforward method of soldering SMD components. If you're just getting started and are apprehensive about the process -- it's not actually that hard to solder components down to 0603 by hand with a soldering iron and fine-ish solder and flux pen, if you have good visibility (like a good magnifier or microscope). But it's also easy to use paste (if you get a stencil with the PCB, and even if not), and then place all the components by hand (again, magnifier/microscope), and then use some simple heating device like an old hot plate or electric frying pan, watching the solder melt by eye. That's way easier than using a layer of the board for the heater, which may or may not heat evenly, plus additional circuitry, plus you have to use low-temp solder because if you heat the PCB layer hot enough to melt ordinary solder you will burn the board.
@@Graham_Wideman I use low-temp paste (Sn42/Bi57/Ag1, mp=137C) with a stencil for my prototypes and reflow with a heat gun, it's about as easy as it gets for low to medium density designs. Mechanical performance (barring the lower melting point) is fine, I've had a dead board on my keychain for years and the component packages are wearing away faster than the solder.
@@treelineresearch3387 Yes I agree. You are adding to my point that there are multiple easy ways to go, and not to be apprehensive about SMD soldering.
Very good 👍
Thank you 👍
If all you need is a one-off or time sensitive board, pcb mills work great. Leveling is CRUCIAL since the cuts are do thin. This looks like a dream, but way outside my budget! In reality, you can get a decent milling machine for kess than $150. You can even add a laser to most of them for a cost proportional to the wattage of the laser.
I use FlatCam with my cheap CNC and it's pretty awesome
consider using flatcam for gerbers. it's not really advancing anywhere now, but current state is very capable for making pcbs
You should try FlatCAM to process the gerber files into GCODE. The program is a bit unstable, but it has a lot of tools that allow you to get your job properly done. I recommend watching a few tutorials first, because the program may not be that intuitive at first use.
Hello Great Scott, I have a real World issue. Have some boards designed in Eagle with smd and through hole components. I used the ULP script from JLCPcb but it outputs the BOM and CPL files only for smd comments not for the THT comp. I did talked with them but no success. Could you help please?