Olive Oatman’s Real-Life Horror Story
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- čas přidán 13. 05. 2024
- Olive Oatman was one of the only survivors of a gruesome tragedy that destroyed her family. Captured by an Indigenous tribe, she witnessed the unthinkable. Sadly, her tragic losses created a twisted ripple effect-her memories haunting her right to the bitter end.
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THat was very well done and with great sensitivity towards Olive. This is no a sensationalistic video, meant to inflame/excite people. It's a historical accounting. Well done.
I disagree. The story is revisionist history that panders to a population segment that considers themselves entitled to race-based special rights, a continuous flow of taxpayer money, and who are immune to responsibility for their criminal actions. The story ignores historical context and realities, and paints her brutal and savage slave owners and rapists as somehow victims... really?!?!
Such a very sad story. Of course, most of us have at least seen photos of Olive Oatman, but many like myself, never knew the entire story. It's no wonder, that she had such a horrific time mentally, as she grew older. This was a really amazing piece of history, and so well told. Thank you so very much for filling in the rest of her story.
at the age of 70, i have loved the old west for many years. ..i have read about olive, found the tats horrible, but until she was rescued, i believe she had a indian husband and 2 children. and found it hard to leave them...this poor woman lost her family as a young woman and then 1 more time lost another family she had grown to love. one can only imagine the heartache she endured....i hope she has found peace in death.
@@debmerrifield5426 So she had an entire family with the Indians??
@@desratlinda8639 yes, she had a indian husband and if memory serves me right (i"m70, lol) , she had 2 sons with him.....this was not the tribe that murdered her family and stole her and her little sister.....another tribe meant up with the 1st tribe and they traded things with that tribe, so as to get olive and her sister. this second tribe were very good to her and sissy, and she was grateful and if given the choice, she would have probably stayed with the tribe.....her little sister, somewhere during that time got deathly ill and passed on.
PTSD isn’t a new condition . I can’t imagine that she was able to cope .
Reminds me of the book Ride the Wind, by Lucia St. Clair-Robson. She wrote the story about a girl named Cynthia Ann Parker, and her family. Most of her family was massacred, save for a few family members. She grew up with the Comanche, and married the future leader of her tribe. It's based on a true story. It's a really good book.
It is a fantastic book! Historic and tragic. So it had to be a real story.
I have that book. It's my all time favorite book ❤ Her son was the last Chief of the tribe.
@@nancyvillines4552 Did you ever read the book Walk in My Soul ? That was a good one, as well. The author is from my hometown.
@@darkangel_1978 I haven't. I'll check it out though. Thanks for the referral.
@@nancyvillines4552 you're welcome. I think you'll like it.
Had she been allowed to remain with the natice americans im sure she would have lived a happy amd fulfilled life
Wasnt she basically a slave to them?
Not being abducted to begin with would have been happier
Maybe her life was better before she was forcefully abducted from her home.
Historically it has been shown that groups like olives father were known for their brutally oppressive altitude towards their own family members.
Daughters were treated as slaves towards their male relitives.
Fathers saw them as their properties to do with as they will and this behaviour was also held by other males in the family.
The fact that she had a full week in which she could have approached the white traders for help but didn't rather she chose to remain with this second tribe to whom it appears that she was consideredas a full member, that she accepted the tattoos etc speaks volumes.
a had been living in a society that has fully accepted her to the extent they broke one of their own taboo's by allowing her to bury her sister which was against their believes and practices speaks so clearly.
When she returned to do called civilised society she suffered public humiliation and distribution solely based on fact she had said facial markings.
8hoW he had been living an independent life in the tribe owning her own property etc now she was trapped by social expectations and hated it.
No one asked how she wanted to live they simply believed she was wanting to live in white society, her behaviour when those trappers were with tribe shows us she had no interest in returning with them.
OliVE is a prime example that no not everyone wants to live like a pack eat for society some prefer to be seen as the eagle flying high flying free just being themselves.
@@amsodoneworkingnow1978well said.
"The first scholarly biography of Olive Oatman, The Blue Tattoo: The Life of Olive Oatman (2009), debunks a number of myths that have circulated about her over the past century and a half."
It's a good book, enlightening
If you are meaning the one by Margo Mifflin, it's the best. The Mojave tribe (CRIT, Parker Arizona) allowed her to do some of her meticulous research in their historical library archives that are closed to the general public.
Olive was very pretty. Such a sad story. Hope she is at peace.
😂😂😂 I'm sorry I didn't see it..The beautiful part.
I read the story last year . Very thought provoking. You told it beautifully.
An overall good presentation but a few corrections, The Oatman family did not invade Yavapai Territory. This area was within the friendly Pima-Maricopa domain. The Yavapai that attacked them was a raiding party 65 miles from their village. According to Lieutenant Whipple, who in 1849, was sent to study the Mohave tribe, he reported that the tattoos on a triable woman's chin was the sign of a married woman.
8 minutes in you show a photo of Alfred L. Kroeber. In the photo he is standing next to Ishi. The story of Ishi is fascinating for those that are unfamiliar with it. At least two books were written about him.
Intriguing story. A strong and unhappy woman. I wonder what happened to the tribes. Thanks for this video and fantastic narration.
There were 22 different tribes in AZ 😮
I think we can fill in the blanks
Been to the town of Oatman, bought the book about her story. Amazing.
Same here. I live in Laughlin, NV (A small town in Southern NV that's 40-45 minutes away from Oatman) with my 2 kids.
@@lynettetaravella2578 my husband & I used to go Laughlin a lot, rent a houseboat on Lake Mojave
This is so awesome as I live in Buckeye and this is not to far from where you are describing! Small world.
She was buried in the
West Hill Cemetery
Sherman, Grayson County, Texas. Sherman is about an hour's drive north of Dallas. The cemetery is near the intersection of hwy 56 and I-75.
I-75 does not run through Texas. It runs North-South, from Detroit, MI, to the tip of South Florida.
we get got a highway 75 here in north texas @@--Skip--
I live north of Ft. Worth , will add this as a must see!! Thank you🎉❤!!
**She IS buried in Sherman, Texas in West Hill Cemetery .
I've been to her gravesite. **
Thanks so much... over 20 years ago I went to Oatman, AZ it was east of where I lived in a vacation home in AZ. I never new the story of the Oatman family. I wish I had. I clearly remember visiting there, an the sweet little burros that meandered thru the streets. It was a tiny, quaint little tourist attraction.
Knew*
I loved this story. I didn’t love what happened to this family, but I like how it was wrote, and how this person narrated it. Keep them coming!!
Amazing, this is all based on facts not made up fantasy. True west magazine has articles on her. Thanks for not stretching truth for a story.
I am a distant cousin to some of Olive Oatman's relatives. I would need to subscribe to ancestry to figure out exactly how this is so.
There are lot of videos and writings on this story. I wasn't even aware of it until now. It would be interesting to know how you are connected to her.
My husband and his family is also related to Olive Oatman.
@@KateRandolph-yz8ef
Then, please say "hello" to your husband, my cousin, for me. :)
Fabulous story. However tragic, what really stands out is the kindness of the rescuers from the other tribe and the willingness of these people to part with much valued items. Horses, blankets, etc. They valued her life. I enjoyed this historical account as it had redemptive qualities.
Heard this story before with not a real ending. She had a daughter and happiness in the end. Thank you. ❤
I had no idea about this story. Thanks for sharing!
What a gift it must have been to be accepted by those Native Americans.
Kinda like Dances with Wolves….. Such a Beautiful People ❤
Taken as slaves?????
Sad but really interesting. Well done! Thanks for sharing.
I had heard of her but this filled in details. Truthfully l am disappointed that she turned on the people who saved her. If her book had portrayed that part of her life accurately it would have been just as interesting, but it would also have had heart. It seems even back then people enjoyed the fruits of victimhood. I wonder if she really did have children. Sad if she did, and abandoned them so completely.
Or maybe she left her adopted tribe and children behind because she knew the danger she posed to them. White women being with Native Americans at that time was seen as un-Christian and sinful and sooner or later someone was going to "rescue" her and murder as many of her tribe as they could. That may also be why she "turned" on them in her collaboration with the author of the book about her supposed life with the tribe. She may have feared the retribution of "good Christians" who would have disapproved of her love of her tribe.
@@ArachnerdGCexactly. When she married the adopted a little girl named her Mary anne. Her brother got married but all the children died. The last one was a 4-year-old and then he's not on the census again. So, something got him.
@@ArachnerdGCAny excuse to insult Christians, and wave hateful bigotry against Christianity eh? Must be comfy in that glass house, eh? Has it ever occurred to you that just because a person claims to be a Christian, doesn't mean that they are perfect or infallible. Anymore than a Muslim is perfect or infallible. Every single person in this world, regardless of their faith or lack thereof, is fallible and capable of evil, cruelty, hate, crime and immorality. Including _you_.
It could have had a worse ending with her lying about the tribe keeping her as prisoner, the white men could have slaughtered the tribe, so glad that didn't happen
Maybe blame Stockholm syndrome, but she was kidnapped and sold for a couple of horses. Sorry, but she is a victim and escaped from fear and brainwashing. Her slave owners are just that and pretending anything else is stupid
Great story. Please do one on Cynthia Ann Parker and Nocona. Their son Quanah Parker was the last Comanche war chief.
So sad. I feel for the tribe-family that did all they could for her,despite the possible consequences. 😢
She shouldn't have been abducted in the first place.
OBVIOUSLY. The Mojave tribe were unbelievably kind to her though, considering white people were brutally murdering their kind every single day and helping her could mean death for them. Or a book lying and slandering them.@@jackiemack8653
A lot of the pre-1880 pioneers were so full of arrogance that they basically killed themselves. They were going into uncharted lands, full of hostile people, and no amount of ammo would let them hold out.
Thank you for this video.
The tattoo on Ms Olivia's face was to show her elevated status as a doctor for her adopted people.
Thanks for that Rose , didn't know that 👍
Sounds like she had Stockholm Syndrome
@nickthurlow4456 Wrong. Read Captivity of the Oatman Girls
In Maui tribe, a woman gets tattooed when she has given birth.
@@sharonjones8497 I don't give a fuq about some savage tribe
Especially at her young age
She was a victim of severe abuse and trauma… that overshadowed her entire life…
We will never know the absolute truth of what and why things happened the way they did…
Maybe if she didn’t go back to the white society the whites would have attacked the tribe…
If she had kids she knew if she too k them with they would have been treated exceptionally badly…
I am sure her mind was extremely vulnerable as her heart due to so much grief and she was probably seriously influenced to turn against her captors in order to be restored to the white community.
As a white woman I have been treated very badly for my companionship with Indians… treated badly by whites and that was still going on till even this current decade.
If we don’t walk in someone else’s moccassins we can never really know.
I have heard this story from, Faces Of The Forgotten! Thank you for the post! ✌🏼😊
Glad you enjoyed it! It really is a wild story.
@@Factinate 👍🏻✌🏼😊
Thank you 💖🙏
We have a similar story in our family. This video was well done, fair and compassionate.
Truly fascinating.
Great narrator!
I have read this before and other books on the Indian tribes like Massacre, and Slave of the Sioux, very harrowing.
I would have liked Olive Oatman to eventually go back to the tribe, but now it didn't happen that way.
Thanks for the video.
Years ago a read a book called Walks Far Women. It was about a white child captured by Native Americans, excellent book. Plus the book about the life of Cynthia Ann Parker, Quannah Parker’s mother, also very good reading.
They made Walks Far Woman into a movie with Raquel Welch. It was pretty good
I also watched that mivie decades ago. But I thought she was a native of a tribe different than the one she married into, not a white woman?
How sad.
Great story....
This was fascinating! Thank you for sharing.
Our pleasure!
Some of The “movie clips” in this video are actually shots of the Kevin Costner movie, “Dances with Wolves”.
Fanny Kelley wrote a book about her captivity. There is a video here where someone reads the entire book.
So beautifully and respectfully done. And I love the way you say book. (buk? beuk?)
What a tragedy. It is interesting though, that when this was done to a white woman there was shock, horror, disbelief, but when the same things were done to millions of enslaved Africans during the Transatlantic Slave Trade (who were never reunited with their families and ended up on a different continent), some people still say slavery 'wasn't that bad'.
🎯💯
And, who says that? It was Black Africans who had slaves from one another's tribes and Arabs that brought Black slaves to other all other countries.
While no one I know thinks slavery of any sort of any people at any time in history to the present day is "just okay" Arabs are still selling blacks on the open market in Africa and yet no one does anything about it!
This right here
Who actually says slavery wasn't that bad?
@@christinamiller6740 Usually people who are trying to make their own actions in the present seem ok.
Heartbreaking
Did Olive's brother ever marry and have children? The question of whether Olive had a native american family could possibly be resolved with dna testing if he had.
"After about two years, Lorenzo grew tired of retelling his traumatic story and moved on. He married and began a new life in Minnesota as a farmer. By all reports, Olive was a good public speaker, and she seemed to enjoy the lecture circuit. For nearly six years, she made a very good living traveling around the country lecturing about her experiences."
"Lorenzo and Edna had four children, but only one survived. One son, Denver, was listed in the 1870 census Arendahl, Fillmore CO., MN, at age four, but was not mentioned again."
Apparently, neither had children or ones that survived to adulthood.
I heard he was married and had 4 kids at least and maybe a couple more that died young.
They seem to have died.
@@WVgirl1959 At least one lived to 1945.
@@WVgirl1959 Lorenzo had a son named Royal Fairchild Oatman (1882-1945) with Harriet Rants (1886-1960), one child William (1919-1998) for him at least.
She should have stayed with her adoptive family...the people who loved her
Sorry, but slave owners are NOT adoptive parents. Try passing that wacko notion off on the ancesters of black slaves. Moreover, this account is a sanitized version of the true story that tries to paint the brutal savage as almost human 🙄
Yes l agree
She was endangering them by staying. The 2ed tribe that she was with, treated her as one of them. If this is the true story.
@@lillydragon2525 If you kidnapped a neighbor's child, even if you treated them well, whatever your definition of well is, still doesn't absolve you of your heinous crime. Both Indian tribes, or whatever colloquial or current PC term you wish to use, acted for their own selfish best interests, and the concepts of freedom of choice or human rights were beyond their comprehension. Defending their actions is the epitome of hypocrisy!
@@ryewhiskey9286 You call them a brutal savages but they are % human, not almost. There is no such thing.
Character portrayed in the streaming tv series in the beginning of 2010s
HELL ON WHEELS
What a story. This could be put into a serie or a great movie with Martin Scorcese or another good director. People all over the world would gain knowledge of life stages.
The victim's race is wrong, can't be seen making a movie where whites are victims, that's not allowed anymore.
One account I read was when she was rescued the soldiers took her to Fort Yuma in her native dress as they didn't have women's clothing on them reportedly. She was shockingly dressed as a Moabe woman, stripped naked from the waist up, wearing only a skirt. Her breasts bared and her face tattooed with blue ink, wearing wild wind whept hair. She looked every bit as a native Moabe.
🤔 you seem to be using a lot from Dances with Wolves”!
what happened to her sons ?? Surely she tried to trace them or they revealed identity of their mother? Any body know ??
"Hell on wheels" has a similar character
Has there been a movie made about her life?
Read the book Captivity of the Oatman girls. Her sister Mary Ann and her were walked for miles in bare feet. Her little sister died from mistreatment and malnutrition
Wow! I didn't know she went to UOP!
There is an interesting episode on the series: The Ghost Inside my Child that shows the reincarnation of Olive Oatman,new name Olivia with memories of her past life as Olive.
Really? I don't believe in reincarnation, but still find those vids interesting. I'll see if I can find it.
@Hatbox948 You might also find the narrative of a young man who was a fighter pilot in WW2 James Lenninger who was named James Houston in his past life.
He remembered his shipmates names,the name of his Air craft carrier-Nitomo & his sisters name, who he was reunited with after he asked her several questions about their family, only her brother was privileged to know.
I was born in a U.S. Army hospital in Paris France to a career military NCO.
We moved to our next duty assignment in Ft Benning Georgia,then on to Sandia Base, New Mexico.
And yes,I joined the military as well=USAF.When overseas at my base in Germany my buddy & I caught a hop into Spain and rented a car.When we were driving thru the south of France I knew exactly what roads to take to get to the coast & it felt like HOME.
We never left the area in Paris for the 2 years we lived there.
I could go on about my 34 years of meditation practice=making up for lost time and my other mystical Kundalini awakening experiences,but I won't bore you.
As a footnote according to spiritual savant Sri Yukeswars , the Holy Science narrates how the Yugas act as our spiritual evolutionary steering mechanism.We are currently on an ascending spiritual evolutionary trajectory for the next 10k years.
We will be seeing more people with these psychic abilities & the amount of information being downloaded into the conscious minds of NDE experiencers is now into the unprecedented stage.
Just another tool for confirming how things are changing-SPIRITUALLY. SPEAKING.
Horrible what the natives did to them.
Why were scenes from "Dances With Wolves" shown. The Sioux obviously were.not Mojave. The information was good but the.footage shown tainted it.
How do we know this is the true story ? Did she retract the things she said about the Mojave’s?
Is there Any evidence to show that the Mohavi tribe treated Olive well and NOT like a slave ??
She wouldn’t have turned on the tribe had they treated her well, surely?? Maybe she was afraid to come forward for her own sake and that of her sisters when the white man visited the tribe?
I hope that someday someone does a story on Hannah Dustin who was also kidnapped by the Indians on the east coast. She was with hostile Indians and she escaped. With scalps and a boy.
She didn't take the boy, she planned to but he woke up and ran away, an injured woman also ran away, but yes she did take the scalps for proof and to get the reward 😊
They used Olive's story as an inspiration for a character on the TV show Hell On Wheels. They even reproduced her tattoo perfectly, although the character's story is somewhat different in the show. I remember in the 80's reading my grandmother's romance novels; there was a trend of historical romances with Indian braves marrying white women, and the women integrating into the culture.
Is that the girl that always has opium in her???
And has a baby with a black man but was a prostituir so the baby ended up being white
An always has opium on her
Oddly enough I just started watching that show this week and then this story popped up in my feed!
@@JD-ht4wnIsn’t it odd how stuff like that happens?
It’s so strange…
I’m sure you’ll enjoy Eva, she was a great source of strength in the show and the fans love Robin McLeavy for her version of Olive.
It really picks up around season 3; I’m sure you’ll enjoy it!
Love & Light from Miami Shores🦚
Stay safe mate✌🏼🌎
What people will do for a better life!
Hope you got Kevin Costner’s permission to use his daughters video from Dances with Wolves” as the little girl running away from Indians
Who cares
Stratten was a liar and a charlatan. He needed to be dealt with by the police.
She should not have in good conscience bite the hand that fed her by denying that the Indian family treated her well & accepted her as their own & saved her by trading 2 of their precious horses for her & her sister freedom, perhaps that is why she found no emotional peace through her betrayal of their kindness. Even her husband’s wealth couldn’t buy her the peace she craved perhaps because she could not retract to the public she was held against her will by the Indian tribe cos of her guilty conscience later
Love your home 🏡 absolutely gorgeous. Congratulations to you all. You have spectacular ideas on decorating.
Bit sad she turned against the people who had welcomed her and kept her alive. There was so much racism about at that time, though so perhaps understandable.
They lied about there book, shame on her, after that mojave people, cared for her.the whole story is sad im glad she worked with the orphans
Oatman!
Town of roaming donkeys. 😂
Hell on Wheels or Dances with Wolves
The story of Topeka would be interesting.
Poor Olive, and her poor adoptive family. If there's an afterlife, I hope they're together again in a land of plenty.
No adoptive, she had Stockholm Syndrome
Olive should have been granted and given her own rights to stay with whoever she choose since she was held by the Mojave people and treated kindly, instead of bringing her back to western society. Trauma such as this does have a lasting impact on children many years later. BUT … women in those days were NOT ALLOWED NOR GIVEN the right to choose anything, even who they should marry…this was all done by family members who wanted to their daughters to marry who they thought would take care of them, stay home and raise babies…another form of servitude, and many times woman were terrified, beaten and forced into sexual violence regardless of how old they were…age 14 was the normal age to get your daughter married off so there was less to feed and to clothe them…or even for selfish reasons, money, trade goods, etc. The reason I know this…MY OWN GRANDMOTHER in the early 1900s. This is one reason women wanted the right to vote and formed the Suffrage Movement in the 1920s. They wanted their voices heard and the right to choose. They wanted to choose their own candidates instead of choosing those by their husbands/men (even afterwards, women were told to vote the way men did). My mother was in this group for the right to vote, she fought for it. From what I see of today’s textbooks, they do NOT teach enough of history and only color-coat the surface, but not explain it properly the reasons nor the whys or even how it happened. I’m glad I grew up and was given the education i had, learning more about history and humanity’s past than what I seem to be seeing in today’s educational world of technological progress. Remembering the past is to trying to understand and doing better tomorrow, and towards the future. 👍🤔🦬
I’m really surprised that Olive would turn her back on the Mojave ppl who protected & loved Olive &her sister. At first she told the truth of how the Mojave rescued the two from an abusive tribe. - but later, the author of her harrowing ordeal convinced her to retract the truth w/ lies. He used money & sadly she succumbed to to it.
The lies she told about her Movavi family, probably played a big part in her depression.
She would not have been safe among Anglo-Saxons, had she told the truth, about how civilized and loving, her Native family was,
and she knew this.
Surely fetching water and food was what Indian women did all the time , so maybe it wasn't that different.
Why couldn't the whites leave Olive be? She had made a life by that time and was happy. It should have been her choice. Lorenzo could have just visited her. What a sad story. RIP people. RIP Olive. RIP all.
Why couldn't the Indians leave her be?
Well, women back in those days were looked upon almost as property and they wanted "their" woman back, plus they probably thought they were "saving" her from sub-human savages as Natives were viewed as at that time.
Great upload. I dislike this character.
Help me understand … on her public speaking tour, was she telling the false stories that Stratton made up? Even though she was treated well in captivity?
Who's here because of Hell on Wheels?
He destroyed every copy of the book he could find, however he didnt destroy all the books, but he did a good enough job that its now classed as very, very rare and if you ever find a first edition of this book it will knock you back several thousand pounds to buy a copy. Although thankfully it has been reprinted many times throughout the years so you can get a copy easy enough !! But if you do want to get a true first edition and you happen to have £2000 - £8000 spare you can get one, there are 3 copies for sale that i know of 😃 although if i had that kind of money spare, id be getting a first edition of watership down instead, lol
I always ask myself what language they they speak.
😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊
Your use of movie clips showing tribes other than Apache and pioneers of another era shows a lack of understanding. Please do more thorough research!
I wonder if she was tormented by telling lies about the people who were good to her, as well.
123
I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe that Olive was really happy with the tribe but instead sadly felt abandoned & made the best of her situation
Feel sorry for the native Americans again
Give up what they ask for. Still going on today. people will kill for tires!
She prolly would’ve had a better life if she hadn’t lied 😣😢 the Mojave did NOT deserve that reputation. Stuff like this sucks so bad. Think how differently the world could’ve turned out if ppl hadn’t been so fearful and hostile towards the Indians! 🥺😭 they were such beautiful people….. I wish the truth had come out before her death. What a shame.
What a shame she slandered her adopted family. Probably took lives of her family. Sad.
Wow so the Mojave’s saved her and she turns around and insults them and maligns them .??? Not cool Olive
The Mohaves could have taken her back to white people but chose to keep her there.... she was clearly she had Stockholm Syndrome
She was telling the truth
The massacre: Result of not accommodating re Matthew 5:38-42 KJV ...
Agree with thine adversary quickly….” - Jesus Christ, Matthew 5.25
The Mojave: Spirituality unites; all else divides. Olive would have been better off with the Mojave.
She accommodated her "original tribe", Matt. 5.38-42....
I am also "white" but not white.
The "whites" had an illusion of ownership.
Nice work, thank you. 🎉
She reincarnated. Don’t remember her name know, but I’m pretty sure it was on the show “The Ghost Inside My Child”.
That's rubbish
I always felt when young I’d have fit in better with Indignos Americans than white man. Anyone interested in further real stories Boy Captive of Deerfield is wonderful.
She was saved by the Mohave, and then betrayed the tribe by perpetuating a lie about her time with them. Whatever her reasons, that's despicable.
A Suffragette? Better she had stayed a Mojave.
Living is a tent in the desert?
No.
@@bluerayangel because they treat women so well
@@BayonetRed How about we fast forward to the future where hopefully everybody gets treated well ???
@@bluerayangel good luck, it's not in human nature.
That Ulster Scots Presbyterian preacher voice is like, way too much. He shouldn’t talk about American anything.
He has a lovely accent. It's a pleasure to listen to it. Why shouldn't he talk about American history. Don't we tell the history and stories of other countries, too?
Is this how Olive loaf originated?
No,it was yo mama
So, screw you
The Native Indians where treated worse!