Battery ESS Fire: Neermoor, Germany Incident
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- čas přidán 4. 07. 2024
- Join me as I delve into the recent BESS fire incident in Neermoor, Germany, unraveling the events leading to the thermal runaway and explosions. This comprehensive analysis sheds light on the critical importance of safety protocols in the battery energy storage system industry.
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00:00 - Intro
00:38 - What is a BESS (Battery Energy Storage System)
00:55 - BESS Construction
01:39 - BESS Fire Suppression
02:45 - Number of BESS fires per year
03:12 - Neermoor Germany BESS Fire
04:14 - Lanyu Taiwan BESS fire
Woow.. color me NOT surprised!
I live in Irvine Scotland and 2 weeks ago there was a fire in a Battery storage/ recycling factory in a town 2 miles away called Kilwinning. The fire took more than a week to put out by many fire units and loads of people were evacuated from the nearby housing estate or told to stay indoors with doors and windows shut because of the smoke from the Lithium batteries exploding.
The factory/storage unit was totally destroyed. Didn't see much on the MSM about this ... I wonder why?
Thanks for sharing! This might end up in next weeks video. It's a topic I've been wanting to tackle for a while because many of these battery recycling centers are hoarding batteries. There have been a number of fires in fixed facilities like this one.
@@StacheDTrainingalso, Mr Battery-Fire guru: what is the recycling process, from an engineering, chemistry and energy discharge/dissipation point of view? I'm hoping you're in a good-ish position to pass along at least some pointers of where to find out more about these processes, and hence risks.
... Thanks.
Fenix Battery Recycling of Kilwinning.
The name though: Lithium "Irony" FauxFate?
Says "Permanently Closed" on Google.
They are typically shredded in a slurry. It's a wet process that allows the materials to be reclaimed in the slurry. It's also not particularly cost effective. Many companies have gone out of business trying to solve this problem.
@@StacheDTraining Yes , its the same as plastics recycling mate , i used to work in the shire recycling some years ago , and the amount of plastics that went to land fill was considerable , not because it was not possible to recycle a great percentage of it , but because it was very expensive to do certain types of plastic , exactly as you said .... not cost effective .
Even glass which is very recyclable , the glass has to be good quality and free from ceramics and certain types of glass are not suitable , when you take a tip truck load down to the glass recycling plant , the plant we used , one the biggest and a well known brand would have the glass go down a conveyor, and if there was any bad glass or other contamination , they would reload our tipper and it would go to landfill , and the amount of contamination would only need to be in excess of a spoonful in a whole tip truck load to be rejected .
Apparently in making or recycling glass , any contamination is a huge no no .
If it was up to me we wouldn't be making large lithium storage batteries. Lead acid for UPS systems, that's it! This whole "green" energy thing is getting out of hand. Still no safe way to recycle lithium cells....
Lithium Iron Phosphate aka LiFeP04 aka LFP batteries are much safer than lithium ion batteries. I have had backup lead acid, AGM, and forklift batteries for 35 years. I began utilizing LFP lithium batteries since 2017. Nothing compares to their capacity to store power in a smaller lighter footprint using a chemistry that doesn't suffer from thermal runaway. They also have 10 times the lifespan as compared to lead acid batteries. Electric Vehicles, scooters, and electric garden tools use the lithium ion battery packs that suffer from thermal runaway if they are damaged. As far as going all electric on everything, its a stupid mistake pushed by Globalists and UNelected non engineers.
@@kimmer6 LifePro, batteries, are still capable of thermal Runaway
@@kimmer6 No using NMC batteries was NOT a mistake. It was a patent work-around.
In the early aughts Chevron used the NiMH battery patents developed for the EV-1 to block the developement of electric cars. Specifically they sued Toyota and Panasonic (the battery supplier) over the RAV4 EV.
A couple years later Elon Musk, while developing his roadster, decided to use hundreds of commodity 18650 cells (commonly used in laptops at the time). His strategy was to use armor and active climate control to mitigate the dangers of the relatively volatile battery chemistry.
@@malcolmwhite6588 Wasy less chance of that happening. Nice try.
@@kimmer6 funny guy! You are one with a “nice try” I used you comment “ a chemistry that doesn’t support thermal runaway” and merely said still possible and certainly has occurred- less chance as you say but some unbiased academic studies have demonstrated they can and do- less energetic but produce lots more hydrogen gas
Live in Victoria Australia. A 300 megawatt Lithium ion battery storage system north of Geelong, caught fire and took several days to extinguish releasing toxic fumes.
Yes and by my calculations, if all of Victoria utilise that whole 300 MW battery storage (assuming it would suck down to 0, which it wouldn’t) would only supply the state for 15 minutes so total waste of time and apparently 300 MW set up will be a few million dollars I think😂
You cannot extinguish those fires. It burnt out on its own.
@@malcolmwhite6588you suck at calculators man. MW is not energy so it can't last any amount of minutes.
In Canada the government is working to shut down coal mines to save the atmosphere, and promoting windmills. Meanwhile they think it's okay to mine cobalt, and lithium to build batteries that catch fire, and pollute the air. Our government is made up of morons.
at the end the batteries will kill the planet the lithium ion battery is not a renewable resource and the fires by thermal overrun , and in many parts of the planet the water is not a renewable resource and is draught in several parts
Relying on massive lithium batteries in cars, trucks, homes and businesses for energy storage is a huge mistake. This technology is neither mature nor safe (yet) and it may be a dead end. The deceptive greenwashing of this hazardous technology is costing taxpayers billions through subsidies, increasing energy costs and increasing insurance rates, thereby making our economies less productive.
that's 'misinformation' apparently.
I couldn't agree more .
Just like cars with internal combustion engines which burn in hundreds every hour. You think this will cause the insurance cost go up?
Marxism. We have to destroy society so we can build it back better. Where have we heard that before?
I read the one lithium mine in the USA uses 4 billion gallons of water a year . . . In Nevada.
Also notice the array of fans on top. Those fans require energy, typically 30 watts or more each. They are there not only for hot days. Battery's when charged or discharged loose energy through heat. the energy conversion into a battery and out is not for free. All those fans are also needed to keep it cool under load.
All the greenies leave this rather sizable losses out of their calculations. Literarily the same when you charge your li-ion based phone quickly. Charging often slows down because the little phone battery is getting too hot. It is exactly the same losses just on a very different scale.
They don't. Because the alternative would be 100% loss. We now quite often have so much regenerative produced power that we switch off the generators. And that is 100% loss or financially even more. No production but costs are running.
@@jfnotk255 True, how ever when you all calculate it. Including the ludicrous production costs, pollution and the gigantic difficulty recycling this toxic containers, wind mills; any solution wind mills are NET energy loss. Without tax-payers money they would be all gone within 15 years.
30 watts? No way. Severely understated. Maybe you left a zero off. My cheap $21 energy efficient box fan burns up 74 watts. If these commercial duty fans are rated 1/2 horsepower each, they probably use 450+ watts when they operate.
@@kimmer6those are probably 3 phase 5hp and up. Not even in the same league as the largest home air handler fan. I sure hope as part of a safety interlock that WHEN the fan fails (Not if, but when), that particular battery bank is isolated
@@jerrykorman7770 I have no experience with those BESS fan units, only other industrial 1 and 3 phase motors. Yes, I can buy 5 hp 3 phase fans as a typical BESS cooling fan..... but for God's sakes the guy said 30 watts to run each. Desktop fans run more than that. A 5 hp fan motor will burn up 3800 watts while running at design speed not to mention starting load spikes..
A review of the total battery storage in the usa, found that they would last 8 minutes.
Yes , its bloody laughable isn't it , we have dipstick politicians in Australia telling us how wonderful dis dat and the udder ting is , and they are mandating as fast as their little legs can run inferior battery and Ev tech , they do not have a bloody clue , but they know the greenie evangelists will vote for them .
All i can say is , thank christ i`m old with one foot in the grave , because i dont want to see where these politician dipshits are taking us .
They actually turned it on to see how long 😅😂 4 minutes 😂🤣🤣🤣😂😂
Sure bud. So the billions of investment that’s gone into them means nothing - all of those investors are wrong and you’re correct? If so why aren’t you taking a massive bet against them?
Otay mesa has left the chat! still burning in san diego...
So, I have a math question. People say that Li-ion battery fires are not that frequent, however, you quote 30 fires in BESS in the last 2 years ... 15 per year. Given the relative energy distribution, any government that was taking an objective view on these systems would deem them unfit for deployment and shut this down until a better plan and solution is in place. Consider if this happened to 30 power stations in a two year period. There would be hard questions that need to be answered.
I suppose it is the times that BESS and other applications get a pass on safety.
How many wall marts caught fire from solar roofs? Another sign it isn't green energy it is destruction of the green in your safe.
Some really nice insights and ideas to keep in mind. Thanks for your time and sharing
Saving the planet, one environmental catastrophe at a time!
That is the best way to describe it.
How many ice cars would you need to produce the same amount of pollution?
You mean ones full of gasoline when they crash and burn? Or just driving around operating normally?
WOW they kept that quiet, I can't find one news item on the incident, only random reports by forum users
Can't let those conspiracy theorists get ahold of this one and blow it out of proportion. Lol
It's challenging to track down any fire incident. Many do not hit the media. This particular incident was covered in Germany, but all the articles were in German.
Finally a confession the battery industry set these up in a bad way knowing its all full of extremely flammable lithium. These people are not honest. It's good that somebody is realizing we need to have flame out design for lithium batteries.
It's not toxic it's green gases. Yes I'm being sarcastic😂
Thanks for the warning.
Battery nightmare.... No such thing as a Safe Battery
Yes, Gazoline is much safer. It can not burn.
You mean…no such thing as a safe LI battery
@@onerider808 LFP is safe. NMC nd NCA are safe as long as you handle them correctly LTO is very safe and stable in itself.
Even water is dangerous when verheated or undercooled.
Yep, these lead acid batteries in cars are super dangerous....
This is smart and good what he said.
The burning module could be kicked out from the container if it is on a sliding table. It could fall then into sand or possibly a water trench, so that it is as far away from the container.
Possibly it started with a single cell. If we have on every cell a temperature-sensor and the capability to kick out a single cell automatically, then we could save the other cells and decrease the problem.
Battery powered future becoming less certain in real time.
Not really. There have been record amounts of investment in grid-scale batteries in the last 5 years, not to mention EVs or other behind the meter stationary storage.
Thermal plants are out constantly, for months out of the year. Batteries aren’t.
Flywheel storage is a viable alternative to batteries. Cheap to make, recyclable, LONG life span, lots of cycles. Basic materials (steel, concrete, some carbon fibre, copper).
The Cannock fire UK 2 days ago had very similar characteristics. Media pretty quiet on the subject.
Why not just use warm water batteries?
@@thesaddestdude3575 ?
For grid-scale energy storage, the lithium-ion battery is the most hazardous. The vanadium redox flow battery has no risk of exploding or catching fire.
thank you for this information.., 👍🤗
Yes mate I used to work in the health system here in Australia and if I am not mistaken there used to be a standard or such which stated that any service room must have at least two doors one in and one for out or vice versa.
Net zero fantasy madness
Wait until you see what LNG, LPG and gasoline can do.
@@deltab9768And have done, repeatedly. Ocean spills, oil rig disasters...
You the Chubby Emu of Fire Department content! I love it.
Large lithium batteries should be banned. Anything bigger than a cell phone.
A battery bank for charging your cellphone is already iffy... 20000mAh or higher...
Come on man, allow me my eBike battery. 😂
Yes, if you've ever held a hot cell phone in the summertime while it's in the sun, the battery is even hotter and will be able to burn you. I'm surprised how hot it got, I dropped it immediately!
Vape pens are smaller than a cell phone and go boom.
Go all the way! Demand that lithium batteries be no bigger than your brain!!!!
I just scanned several German news about that
- there was ONE container burning
- that unit was stored, not operating
- firefighters were able to pull that container forward to isolate it from others.
- there must be some miscommunication: Firefighters were told to open the container, the supplier said NOT to open - the truth has to be found.
I suspect the container was opened prior to contacting the supplier.
@@StacheDTraining Seems like they opened it after consulation with the operator/owner.
( Article on pv-magazine )
Do these things not need planning and building regulations? 🤔
I can't speak for Europe, however in the US we're at a time where the technology is out pacing the codes and standards. As an example, in Michigan we are using code that is roughly a decade old.
Great video! Where did you get the failure event list at 2:47?
It's in the description.
we recently had one of these installed in are district. we have made are SOP for response to them to limit response to cooling and exposure protection only.
Patrick, the term for the enclosure with no ability to enter is "cabinet" while the other is "walk-in enclosure". However, deflagration risks exist with both and I agree with your recommendation to any firefighter to stay away and never open a door for a BESS displaying any smoke/gas/or heat alarms.
What happened to the NEC’s two door rule for electrical rooms?
If anything, throwing water in these fires just makes things worse with environmental impact as it all runs off and seeps into the ground with heavy metals and chemicals…
Pumped water storage systems will never catch fire, unless you dump sodium or potassium in them.
Great point about having external access rather than normal container access, these things are a disaster waiting to happen .
I`d be really interested to hear after the event samples of the surrounding area and liquid run off areas to see how much threat the burning battery and fire suppression run off pollution is , this sort of thing is happening more and more often , as we are mandated to to become battery dependant , it would be nice to know the pollution effects and danger if any .
not once have i heard this topic mentioned despite many battery fires in all manner of battery related incidents .
I wonder if these fires are NMC based systems of if LFP is also involved, as in generally this is considered a much safer chemistry.
For home storage LFP (LiFePO4) is already pretty much the standard in the Netherlands, although there are no regulations enforcing this. Are there any fire statistics or safety tests that show this claimed advantage?
There have been a number of LFP related fires in ESS as well. LFP is harder to get into thermal runaway, however when LFP does fail it releases significantly more hydrogen. So in some ways LFP is better, in some ways it is worse.
@@StacheDTrainingHi, can you point me to a study/ factual evidence to support this claim about more hydrogen released from LFP? Thanks.
I guess local building codes must be changed such that the energy company is required to pay for training for all areas firefighters before a bess location can be built. Kind of an important aspect to ignore.
what companies were the batteries makers and their integrators onto those containers? If a pattern is found perhaps it could be handled in a way not to keep happening so often?
Let me ask a question. What about designing the unit with a remote fill pipe? The trucks show up at the site. They connect a hose to the fill pipe that is at a safe distance from the BESS and they fill the module with water. This would require the BESS to have all air intakes and electrical connections on top.
I didn't speak to it in this video, but Telsa has the right idea. They allow the fire to burn and control it be not allowing it outside of "the container". They deal with the flammable gas issue by intentionally igniting the gasses in a controlled way.
@@StacheDTraining I can only guess there are no standards. If I were an insurance company I wouldn’t insure these systems or the property they are on. Most certainly I would never have a home system unless I could keep it at least 20 feet from the house.
Does anyone know of any videos where they test to see what happens if entire lithium array ignites at once?
Stay safe april 24 2024 09.00 PM
Batter ess, germany fires
These things are definitely not going anywhere. They are here to stay. In my state, California loves these things because it allows them not to have to invest in more power generation for the few times the current capacity would fall short. They could just top up any shortfall by dipping into the batteries.
gee, I am NOT a fireman, but I did watch Towering Inferno when it came out, and know you don't open a hot door.
Imagine a battery exchange/re refuel station.
I can see why it's not a thing now.
I noticed in the first clip a fire truck doseing the "Battery Fire" with water!? My understanding is you don't put out a lithum battery fire with water.
How about a different chemistry like lithium iron phosphate?
We've been using lithium-ion in consumer electronics for decades, mostly safely.
However big capacity units are better served with safer chemistry, Sodium-Ion and Iron-flow for example. Battery energy storage is vital to get right, especially if we aim to get control over climate change and hope to have modern human civilization in 200 years time.
Newer engineered units have blow-away tops in case of an explosion pressures!
You have an important job here. It is a good idea to refresh your content. Even though you covered a topic, you can do it again. Re-upload or re-visit topics.
Fire extinguishers are a topic that needs to be covered. Changing batteries in smoke detectors is another lol
I recently covered both topics in other videos while discussing incidents.
Most new EVs no longer use Li Ion batteries. Instead they use LiFePh batteries - which are far less susceptible to fire.
I agree that ESS manufacturers need to have fire expert input. I think that they assume that cutting off the air/oxygen will suppress the fire.
There's Red Flow batteries. Why are they using these dangerous batteries? I use them away from my home. Flow batteries can't catch fire. Madness....
Confused on your analogy of venting. Do FD s not use the EV blankets to suppress the O2 to put out the fire?
No O2 puts the fire out does it not?
When these batteries fail, it is a self oxidizing fire. Thermal runaway can occur in the vacuum of space.
Battery energy storage is another whole layer of technology, cost, complexity, resources and risk associated with 'green' energy.
The regulatory laws for these batteries have been ignored, the largest they should be is laptop size.!
Can someone please calculate the carbon footprint for this particular instillation including the precious metal mining, manufacture and transport costs. "Ah yes" say the Net Zero zealots "they don't all burst into flames".
Fires in large Tesla shipping container Mega Batteries have happened in South Australia and Bouldercombe, Queensland Australia.
The best thing you can do is isolate like he said, build the units (I said build not find a cargo container) and build it to contain the fire and a exhaust system to control the outgas and fire. If we can build a rocket engine (which these things basically are once they get going) to withstand thousands of degrees and super high pressures this shouldn't be a problem that can't be solved. The real problem is greed, these companies want the profit but don't want to spend what is needed to make them safe.
In my opinion having it in a closed shipping container makes sense, however all these battery storage systems should have another container stacked on top which is connected via a pipe. The top container should contain a minimum qty of brine solution that can be used in case of a fire to deluge and totally submerge the content in the battery storage container. Brine because it’s conductive and naturally shorts out the cells, gravity fed, so no pump required.
Lithium ion battery fires create their own oxygen. That's why they burn under water. There are a few YT videos showing completely submerged Teslas sending up flaming gasses that burn on top of the water.
Upcoming batteries will be redox flow technology. Less density, but non flammable and no memory effect and cheap material (no lithium). Will hopefully solve many problems for stationary projects.
As an engineer im warning you fire fighters. Waking into one of these things is like walking into a loaded cannon.
The reality gap gets wider every day.
Seems like a strange way to "save the planet".
Imagine half way across the ocean and the boats batteries catch fire.
It's already happened to a ship carrying EVs.
Just wait until our electrical grid is dependent on hectare-sized, wind and solar charged BESS warehouse complexes. Imagine the chaos when power is needed badly due to adverse weather events, and the increased demand overheats a unit, and initiates a battery thermal runaway fire that destroys the entire facility and blacks out whole states, as we saw in Texas a couple of years ago. When was the last time a storage pile of low-sulphur coal caught fire outside of a steam generating plant?
Just because it has a door doesn’t make it a building. It’s a battery. If it’s on fire, don’t go in.
Seems they have not got these Li on batteries right yet🙄
Gaz UK
It's
'exacerbates the situation'
not
'exasperates the situation'
Although to be fair the whole situation is exasperating!
One incident per month?! Wtf? Unactable.
In the midst of a global existential crisis, we're betting our entire ecosystem on these misunderstood batteries. We're doomed.
By owning an ev car there's a possibility of it catching fire with serious consequences to life and in some cases to homes. It might be a small risk, but it's there to catch the unwary
Yeah.... J. B. More green - more green - more green for the US.
Exasperates? I think you mean exacerbates!
Tomato Tomato.
@@StacheDTraining
No. It's a different word.
Indeed,
exasperate= to make annoyed
exacerbate= to make worse
Clearly they need to be further APART from each other
I have no education in terms of Fire-prevention.
But,
could Nitrox13 be a solution ? ( i.e. a Gas containing only 13% Oxygene and 87% Nitrogen )
Man can breath itfor a short while, fire dies of.
Storing massive lithium batteries in your house is the equivalent of storing massive amounts of gasoline in your house. There's a reason why nobody stores gasoline inside of their house. The same should go for lithium.
Unfortunately, these problems will scale up. Sadly, we have no real solutions for net zero or for storage.
Imagine a BESS going up in your neighbourhood, the mayhem it would cause, and blackouts lasting months by it.
You're blaming everything but these batteries 🤔
They're unsustainable.
Inside the containers its too hot. Thats the problem.
❤🎉🇦🇺
Also, its an unit, why would you open it when its known to be dagerous? You aint gona go look whats inside refinery fuel storage when fire broke out, why would you look whats inside battery storage when it caught fire. Bit wierd. Logical thing yould be just let it burn out and keep nearby stuff cool.
…and another one in Australia now.
I hope none of fighter was harmed.
Do I care about the batteries?
Not a bit.
You did not get into specifics on the battery chemistry used. My understanding is than Lithium Iron Phosphate and Sodium ion chemistries are safer.
The only reasons the Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt chemistry was used in cars was both for the extra energy density, as well as a patent work around to avoid using Nickel Metal Hydride (because the patents were owned by an oil company who prohibited the use of the tech in electric cars).
The original Tesla battery banks used the same batteries Tesla used in their cars. Even though a stationary application does not need the energy density.
I will trust your judgement on the use of fire suppression systems in such battery banks though.
There have been a number of these BESS fires that used LFP chemistry.
Unfortunately… people/ authorities won’t listen… they don’t want to understand these chemistries are super dangerous
I have a LiFePo4 home battery setup with a CO2 "extinguisher" near it (outside). The CO2 is to cool down. There is a lot of difference in the type of rechargeable lithium batteries. I actually wanted to have a Sodium battery, but alas, it was either LiFePo4 or no power at all.
As a proponent for battery storage, I say this: never ever stop making videos about the dangers and the flaws in these setups.
LiFePo4 however is much safer than Lead Acid. But never ever forget about what to do when the battery burns. Make sure there is an exit for the gas. Make sure that anything surrounding the battery can freely burn. Because realistically if it starts, the battery is gone, but your house doesn't have to be gone.
The chances however of the battery catching fire is much smaller than the chances of poor PV wiring catching fire.
Also: do not store your old phones with lithium batteries somewhere in a drawer, because those batteries can get dangerous. Those are not LiFePo4 and can really explode.
Wind power is so Planet Friendly? Nope!!!
Horrendous.............horrendous.................horrendous. What else can you say???????????
Thanks for the upload. With these systems proliferating, training and diligence are first responders main defense against injury, damage, and death. "Ho-hum... just another fire" should never be the mindset. Lithium batteries can be a special kind of evil.
Virtue signalling is expensive, in money, resources and human risk.
Interesting that i did not hear about that here in germany. No news at all.
It's OK, it's OK. Lithium-ion fires are zero emission, low calorie and gluten free.
The political parties have you convinced that EV are a free lunch. Only free lunches for politicians
I've said it a million times. Until some team of mega genius scientists figure out how to cram a small nuclear bomb's worth of energy safely into a volume no bigger than a milk jug this whole grid storage and electric vehicle thing will never be practical.
...You just described a nuclear bomb.
Forget putting out the fires. That is not going to happen and will only result is huge volumes of water-born toxic waste.
The focus should be on protecting innocent neighbours, and processing the toxic smoke as it emerges.
Territorial local authorities are not doing their job.
16 fires for hole planet? thats way less than coal mine fires that some burn ovr 100y.
To put out these fires you need something like liquid nitrogen, water and electricity is very bad
they Opened doors - thats like opening door on a gas fuel storage tank - just sayn
battery fires burn at multiple higher temperatures and contain its own oxizider, venting the gasses out reduce the risk of explosions.
If I were a firefighter, it would make me furious, knowing those fires can’t be put out. This ‘technology’ is the opposite of green.
What’s it going to take for government to wake up? These battery systems are dangerous and unnecessary.
MUSTACHE!