The thumbnail. 🤣 I actually agree with respect to Martin's characterisation, highlight with the chapter names as POVs technique and which POVs to focus on. Esme and Akka were the ones I liked most too. I would have probably liked the book more had it focused more on them. But I also don't think Bakker's character work really is on the level I wanted, he too falls into the "look at my cool worldbuilding ideas, let me cram all of them" epic fantasy trap in my opinion. Kellhus was a bot, I don't care what he is supposed to symbolise, he's such a bot to me. 🤣 I gave this book 2/5 stars. It was not terrible but there was a lot of unnecessary gratuitous stuff and ultimately I felt it was underwhelming. Nice review, enjoyed listening.
Maybe I should have addressed the thumbnail because I didn't talk about that creature at all haha. Or maybe it's best to let people who haven't read it wonder. Bakker is definitely interested in creating a "historical" novel in a fantasy setting, so I can understand why he put so much focus on that. I'm glad he did also take care most of the time with the characters. I agree with you about Kellhus. Maybe he's supposed to be that way, representing and idea or concept rather than a person. But as a reader jumping into the novel, we don't know that, and may never know that until the end. And by then we're so frustrated with this boring character that the impact of that revelation is lost because we've had to wade through over a thousand pages.
Yes this is just an introduction. You cannot judge this series until you have finished the first 3 books ...... and that is just an introduction to the ongoing story that continues in the Aspect Emperor series. Yes Kelhus is the ultimate Mary Sue, once you see what he and the Dunyain are then they cannot be anything else. I find him fascinating because I cannot in anyway understand the perspective of a person who is not governed by the darkness that comes before, none of us can because they are not in anyway human.
Very interesting and informative video. I think you will have plenty of positive and negative surprises If you go on reading these books. Bakker surely does not write what is expected of him. The Blood Meridian influence is more eminent in the second arc, the Aspect Emperor books. The Dark Souls vibe also returns there with a bang. The world feels ancient, awe inspiring, dark, ominous and apocalyptical. Some incredible "cinematography" for you there. I hope you will reach these parts. Concerning Kellhus I wonder if even Bakker agrees with you in a way. I think he is more like a weird mirror for the rest of the cast. Once in an AMA Bakker said some interesting stuff on Kellhus' concept. I am quoting the passage "The preposterous idea was to write the only kind of scripture that could be written at the end of civilization, so one of the things I did was invert the biblical emphasis on belief and fidelity--thus the textual emphasis on ignorance, doubt, and folly. When I was fourteen I stumbled upon the problem of free will all by my lonesome, and it fucked me up large. The original idea, that of a prophet rallying humanity to overcome the No-God, grew out of the combination of that dark epiphany and my passion for epic SF&F. My old AD&D crew actually set out on a quest to destroy the Consult and the No-God! In university a few years afterward, I read Dennett and Hofstadter on memes, and the idea of turning my prophet into a 'meme master' struck me as a lightning bolt. The Dunyain were born. While studying modernism, I realized that fantasy actually provided the perfect literary vehicle. Where the modernist paradigm always features a protagonist struggling to find meaning in a meaningless world (typically through some form of love), I realized I was writing a photographic negative of that, the story of a meaningless character struggling in a meaningful world."
Wow, thanks for the insight! This sheds more light on Bakker's intention. It's something I wrestle with as well. Do you write a boring character purposefully because he represents something rather than being a living breathing character on the page? Do I sacrifice the reader's enjoyment and wonder to maintain this execution? I'd argue there is probably a way to do it and still intrigue the reader. The problem is, Bakker is writing an incredibly long series. So we have to read multiple books to GET his intention. By then do we care? Maybe we have a bit of a revelation that makes us enjoy that fact in hindsight, but we're cursing this boring figure the entire journey. Difficult to say.
@@JasonFuhrman Kellhus is a peculiar case. If you read more you will realise that the focus on Kellhus changes perspective. Without losing his any significance, his pov diminishes
I would say the most palpable influence for me was Dune. The Messiah figure, religion as a tool of manupilation and the Golden Path/Thousandfold Thought. Blood Meridian influences is very clear in Warrior-Prophet the way he describes the holy war marches reminded of the gangs raids on towns and camps.
Wow, this might be the highest praise of a fantasy novel I've heard from you Jason. As I've said before, I've been hesitant to try out Bakker because a friend of mine and him got into a bit of a spat about...well far nerdier stuff I won't get into here. But if you're liking it...perhaps I may finally swallow my doubts and give this book a try. Very good review Jason. As for fantasy novels with great characterization, there are several I've read over the years such as the aforementioned Game of Thrones, The First Law, the Gentlemen Bastard books, Perdido Street Station and The Scar, Black Leopard Red Wolf, and so on. But I think we've gone back and forth on this several times, so I won't repeat myself here.
You should give this a try. It's far more Game of Thrones than any of the others you listed. Abercrombie and Lynch have good characterization but they still lack the "realness" I prefer. As much as I like them, they're a little more caricature than person.
I just finished this book. Great review! I really enjoyed it. I’ve heard a lot of comparisons between this series and Malazan and frankly I enjoyed this book much more than Malazan (which is not my favorite series). Agree with you on the philosophy… I got more “words of wisdom” but I’m willing to bet it’s gonna get a lot deeper in subsequent books and I like where he’s going with Logos … reminds me a bit of Psychohistory from Foundation. Will def be continuing with the series! Edit: also agree I didn’t get any Blood Meridian vibes but knowing that now makes me even more curious to read on.
I enjoyed the whole of the Second Apocalypse series, both the Prince of Nothing and the Aspect Emperor following it. The familiarity of the setting regarding the Middle East and the Crusades starts off fairly obvious and clear, but as more is revealed, it gets further and further away from anything I've seen before. I don't know if I would classify Kellhus as a Mary Sue, but he does not have many "character" moments. It's more constructive to think of him like a force of nature or an extremely complicated machine. If you empathize with him, there is something wrong with you. I hope you continue it. I think there is a lot to appreciate in it, but it also gets pretty bleak, and I wouldn't blame anyone who let it go.
Great to know you enjoyed the rest of the books. I do plan on continuing to see where the story goes. I hear the second series is a bit different, especially with more poetic prose.
Nice review. Kellhus immediately became my favorite character, but because of what he represented for the story and especially the themes. I get the impression that you might like him less and less. But we will see.
Thanks! I don't mind a character representing something in a story. I'd argue everyone does in this book. Just with him he stood out like a sore thumb because of how unrealistic he felt. And maybe that's the point. He's supposed to be a force and not a person. Like Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen. But he doesn't feel as detached from reality as that, which is why he became the ultimate bore haha.
Cnaiur boring?! Weeper... lol in all seriousness I've enjoyed your videos talking about the book. Like others have said, I can't tell if you liked it or not but i hope to see you continue with the series.
@JasonFuhrman this is one of those books where u must go all in. There is so much foreshadowing and nuance hidden in plain sight. It demands your attention like most books don't. If you just go do your thing and come back later you will find this really frustrating. At least that happened to me 😅 the second reading was waaay more enjoyable then the first
Ah I knew it was a good idea to subscribe. This series is so gripping. I read it when it 1st came out. Bakker had a hard time with his online interactions and he kinda disappeared. The books have kept coming though and I’m seeing a new interest in the original series. I absolutely rate these books (or rated) I’ve had a lot of life since the last reading - wondering what I’ll think now. Great channel - new fan! 😎
thanks! Glad you're enjoying the content. This has been the closest fantasy book in recent years that felt like it reaches beyond the genre. My hugest complains (and I mention it in the video) is how detached from the characters I often feel while reading fantasy. This one fixed that for the most part for me. Did Bakker have a hard time with criticism? Is that why he vanished? I've noticed that can be a trend with creative people. I find you need to embrace the criticism and not let it push you away. I tend to write fiction that is divisive or for a small audience, which means most people don't enjoy it, so I get negativity in that regard. But I think once you realize your work isn't for everyone, it bothers you less and you can use it as a learning experience.
@@JasonFuhrman They really went for him on the forums over his depiction of women - he engaged with his critics and he did defend himself badly at one point which didn't serve him well at all. It might be guesswork on my part, but it must've been tough and it was early internet days. We've all had to toughen up since then when online. Thanks for your reply! :)
@YoBassCharles I've heard about his criticisms regarding his depiction of women, but it's strange considering how much time he put into developing Esmenet. I guess they wanted her to be a warrior and not a prostitute.
@@JasonFuhrman People have such firm ideas about what is acceptabe when it comes to what women should or shouldn't do and how they should be represented. So many voices jostling for control of the perception...when we are just human; flawed and imperfect, but also heroes and demons too. He did a great job shaping that character.
From your vlogs, it was hard to tell if you liked it or not. But you did finish. It has been said PoN is just one really long prologue for Aspece Emperor. What I found interesting is that there is no 'Sauron'. You have hints about the Consult and the No God but not who theyvare or what motivates them. You do get more backstory in Warrior Prophet of various characters which you will eithe find interesting or will just turn you off. Ibdo see some similarities with Blood Meridian. Neither shows a good opinion on human nature as people wander around doing horrible things. Unfortunately, I found McCarthy's writing almost painful to read.
Definitely a prologue novel. Good stuff in there but I don't like disjointed story construction. Imagine buying this when it first came out and having to wait a year until the next volume. I'd feel ripped off. Blood Meridian is a tough one for sure.
Good book enough though it was a setup for something bigger. Ive been watching CursedArmada summary videos on this book. Really cool visualizations & music and a great companion for following along since I know Bakker’s material is often dense. His videos and the audiobook really helped me digest some of the material. He already started on the 2nd book worth checking out for whenever you continue with the series ; czcams.com/video/X1plQoIpux8/video.htmlsi=1rSWcXJw0454vKyo
Hahaha that picture.
Epic thumbnail 😂
The thumbnail. 🤣
I actually agree with respect to Martin's characterisation, highlight with the chapter names as POVs technique and which POVs to focus on.
Esme and Akka were the ones I liked most too. I would have probably liked the book more had it focused more on them. But I also don't think Bakker's character work really is on the level I wanted, he too falls into the "look at my cool worldbuilding ideas, let me cram all of them" epic fantasy trap in my opinion. Kellhus was a bot, I don't care what he is supposed to symbolise, he's such a bot to me. 🤣
I gave this book 2/5 stars. It was not terrible but there was a lot of unnecessary gratuitous stuff and ultimately I felt it was underwhelming.
Nice review, enjoyed listening.
Maybe I should have addressed the thumbnail because I didn't talk about that creature at all haha. Or maybe it's best to let people who haven't read it wonder.
Bakker is definitely interested in creating a "historical" novel in a fantasy setting, so I can understand why he put so much focus on that. I'm glad he did also take care most of the time with the characters. I agree with you about Kellhus. Maybe he's supposed to be that way, representing and idea or concept rather than a person. But as a reader jumping into the novel, we don't know that, and may never know that until the end. And by then we're so frustrated with this boring character that the impact of that revelation is lost because we've had to wade through over a thousand pages.
Yes this is just an introduction. You cannot judge this series until you have finished the first 3 books ...... and that is just an introduction to the ongoing story that continues in the Aspect Emperor series.
Yes Kelhus is the ultimate Mary Sue, once you see what he and the Dunyain are then they cannot be anything else. I find him fascinating because I cannot in anyway understand the perspective of a person who is not governed by the darkness that comes before, none of us can because they are not in anyway human.
I think I'm going to jump into book 2 soon.
Very interesting and informative video.
I think you will have plenty of positive and negative surprises If you go on reading these books. Bakker surely does not write what is expected of him.
The Blood Meridian influence is more eminent in the second arc, the Aspect Emperor books.
The Dark Souls vibe also returns there with a bang. The world feels ancient, awe inspiring, dark, ominous and apocalyptical. Some incredible "cinematography" for you there. I hope you will reach these parts.
Concerning Kellhus I wonder if even Bakker agrees with you in a way. I think he is more like a weird mirror for the rest of the cast.
Once in an AMA Bakker said some interesting stuff on Kellhus' concept.
I am quoting the passage
"The preposterous idea was to write the only kind of scripture that could be written at the end of civilization, so one of the things I did was invert the biblical emphasis on belief and fidelity--thus the textual emphasis on ignorance, doubt, and folly.
When I was fourteen I stumbled upon the problem of free will all by my lonesome, and it fucked me up large. The original idea, that of a prophet rallying humanity to overcome the No-God, grew out of the combination of that dark epiphany and my passion for epic SF&F. My old AD&D crew actually set out on a quest to destroy the Consult and the No-God!
In university a few years afterward, I read Dennett and Hofstadter on memes, and the idea of turning my prophet into a 'meme master' struck me as a lightning bolt. The Dunyain were born. While studying modernism, I realized that fantasy actually provided the perfect literary vehicle. Where the modernist paradigm always features a protagonist struggling to find meaning in a meaningless world (typically through some form of love), I realized I was writing a photographic negative of that, the story of a meaningless character struggling in a meaningful world."
Wow, thanks for the insight! This sheds more light on Bakker's intention.
It's something I wrestle with as well. Do you write a boring character purposefully because he represents something rather than being a living breathing character on the page? Do I sacrifice the reader's enjoyment and wonder to maintain this execution?
I'd argue there is probably a way to do it and still intrigue the reader. The problem is, Bakker is writing an incredibly long series. So we have to read multiple books to GET his intention. By then do we care? Maybe we have a bit of a revelation that makes us enjoy that fact in hindsight, but we're cursing this boring figure the entire journey.
Difficult to say.
@@JasonFuhrman Kellhus is a peculiar case. If you read more you will realise that the focus on Kellhus changes perspective. Without losing his any significance, his pov diminishes
Cool good to know
I would say the most palpable influence for me was Dune. The Messiah figure, religion as a tool of manupilation and the Golden Path/Thousandfold Thought.
Blood Meridian influences is very clear in Warrior-Prophet the way he describes the holy war marches reminded of the gangs raids on towns and camps.
Wow, this might be the highest praise of a fantasy novel I've heard from you Jason. As I've said before, I've been hesitant to try out Bakker because a friend of mine and him got into a bit of a spat about...well far nerdier stuff I won't get into here. But if you're liking it...perhaps I may finally swallow my doubts and give this book a try. Very good review Jason.
As for fantasy novels with great characterization, there are several I've read over the years such as the aforementioned Game of Thrones, The First Law, the Gentlemen Bastard books, Perdido Street Station and The Scar, Black Leopard Red Wolf, and so on. But I think we've gone back and forth on this several times, so I won't repeat myself here.
You should give this a try. It's far more Game of Thrones than any of the others you listed.
Abercrombie and Lynch have good characterization but they still lack the "realness" I prefer. As much as I like them, they're a little more caricature than person.
@@JasonFuhrman *Shakes my head irritably*
I'll see what I think about it. It's on my list.
I just finished this book. Great review! I really enjoyed it. I’ve heard a lot of comparisons between this series and Malazan and frankly I enjoyed this book much more than Malazan (which is not my favorite series). Agree with you on the philosophy… I got more “words of wisdom” but I’m willing to bet it’s gonna get a lot deeper in subsequent books and I like where he’s going with Logos … reminds me a bit of Psychohistory from Foundation. Will def be continuing with the series!
Edit: also agree I didn’t get any Blood Meridian vibes but knowing that now makes me even more curious to read on.
Thanks! I plan to continue as well. I have all the books in both series, and I hope it wasn't a mistake to buy them all haha.
I was already going to subscribe but as soon as you mentioned Dark Souls you had me. Great video
Thanks man!
I enjoyed the whole of the Second Apocalypse series, both the Prince of Nothing and the Aspect Emperor following it. The familiarity of the setting regarding the Middle East and the Crusades starts off fairly obvious and clear, but as more is revealed, it gets further and further away from anything I've seen before. I don't know if I would classify Kellhus as a Mary Sue, but he does not have many "character" moments. It's more constructive to think of him like a force of nature or an extremely complicated machine. If you empathize with him, there is something wrong with you. I hope you continue it. I think there is a lot to appreciate in it, but it also gets pretty bleak, and I wouldn't blame anyone who let it go.
Great to know you enjoyed the rest of the books. I do plan on continuing to see where the story goes. I hear the second series is a bit different, especially with more poetic prose.
Nice review. Kellhus immediately became my favorite character, but because of what he represented for the story and especially the themes. I get the impression that you might like him less and less. But we will see.
Thanks! I don't mind a character representing something in a story. I'd argue everyone does in this book. Just with him he stood out like a sore thumb because of how unrealistic he felt. And maybe that's the point. He's supposed to be a force and not a person. Like Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen. But he doesn't feel as detached from reality as that, which is why he became the ultimate bore haha.
Cnaiur boring?! Weeper... lol in all seriousness I've enjoyed your videos talking about the book. Like others have said, I can't tell if you liked it or not but i hope to see you continue with the series.
I do plan to continue. Not sure when, but keep an eye out
@JasonFuhrman this is one of those books where u must go all in. There is so much foreshadowing and nuance hidden in plain sight.
It demands your attention like most books don't. If you just go do your thing and come back later you will find this really frustrating.
At least that happened to me 😅 the second reading was waaay more enjoyable then the first
Epic thumbnail 😂❤
If you know, you know 😉
Ah I knew it was a good idea to subscribe. This series is so gripping. I read it when it 1st came out. Bakker had a hard time with his online interactions and he kinda disappeared. The books have kept coming though and I’m seeing a new interest in the original series. I absolutely rate these books (or rated) I’ve had a lot of life since the last reading - wondering what I’ll think now. Great channel - new fan! 😎
thanks! Glad you're enjoying the content. This has been the closest fantasy book in recent years that felt like it reaches beyond the genre. My hugest complains (and I mention it in the video) is how detached from the characters I often feel while reading fantasy. This one fixed that for the most part for me.
Did Bakker have a hard time with criticism? Is that why he vanished? I've noticed that can be a trend with creative people. I find you need to embrace the criticism and not let it push you away. I tend to write fiction that is divisive or for a small audience, which means most people don't enjoy it, so I get negativity in that regard. But I think once you realize your work isn't for everyone, it bothers you less and you can use it as a learning experience.
@@JasonFuhrman They really went for him on the forums over his depiction of women - he engaged with his critics and he did defend himself badly at one point which didn't serve him well at all. It might be guesswork on my part, but it must've been tough and it was early internet days. We've all had to toughen up since then when online.
Thanks for your reply! :)
@YoBassCharles I've heard about his criticisms regarding his depiction of women, but it's strange considering how much time he put into developing Esmenet. I guess they wanted her to be a warrior and not a prostitute.
@@JasonFuhrman People have such firm ideas about what is acceptabe when it comes to what women should or shouldn't do and how they should be represented. So many voices jostling for control of the perception...when we are just human; flawed and imperfect, but also heroes and demons too. He did a great job shaping that character.
You had me at dark souls
From your vlogs, it was hard to tell if you liked it or not. But you did finish.
It has been said PoN is just one really long prologue for Aspece Emperor.
What I found interesting is that there is no 'Sauron'. You have hints about the Consult and the No God but not who theyvare or what motivates them.
You do get more backstory in Warrior Prophet of various characters which you will eithe find interesting or will just turn you off.
Ibdo see some similarities with Blood Meridian. Neither shows a good opinion on human nature as people wander around doing horrible things. Unfortunately, I found McCarthy's writing almost painful to read.
Definitely a prologue novel. Good stuff in there but I don't like disjointed story construction. Imagine buying this when it first came out and having to wait a year until the next volume. I'd feel ripped off.
Blood Meridian is a tough one for sure.
Just reacently discovered your channel Jason! Great review!
Thanks man!
Thanks man!
Good book enough though it was a setup for something bigger. Ive been watching CursedArmada summary videos on this book. Really cool visualizations & music and a great companion for following along since I know Bakker’s material is often dense. His videos and the audiobook really helped me digest some of the material. He already started on the 2nd book worth checking out for whenever you continue with the series ;
czcams.com/video/X1plQoIpux8/video.htmlsi=1rSWcXJw0454vKyo
Awesome, thanks for sending!