Parental alienation vs parental estrangement.
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- čas přidán 9. 01. 2023
- The US research paper discussed in this video is:
Schoppe-Sullivan, S. J., Coleman, J., Wang, J., & Yan, J. J. (2021). Mothers’ attributions for estrangement from their adult children. Couple and Family Psychology: Research and Practice. doi.org/10.1037/cfp0000198
The UK charity for people experiencing estrangement is Standalone.org.uk.
Thank you for watching. If you are dealing with a family estrangement, please look after yourself and get professional help if you are able.
Please drop me a line below to tell me what you think, what your experiences are and if there is anything you’d like me to cover. I can’t do this without your support. Please like and subscribe if you enjoy the content. And if you can make a financial contribution towards making the videos, no matter how small, please check out www.patreon.com/thescapegoatclub.
Much love, Chess xxx
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This is a personal account of my experiences. I am not diagnosing anybody in my family as narcissistic. If you are in danger of physical abuse & harm, from others or yourself, please contact your local emergency services immediately.
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DISCLAIMER: The information contained within the CZcams channel 'The Scapegoat Club' is not a substitute for professional advice such as a doctor, psychologist, psychiatrist, or other therapist. The information provided by the CZcams channel 'The Scapegoat Club' does not constitute legal or professional advice nor is it intended to be. Only a trained medical professional can diagnose psychological or medical conditions.
My mother I think would fall into this camp. I have outlined to her an ongoing pattern of boundary violations and, for years, fired warning shots both verbally and in black and white writing.
Eventually I withdrew and extricated her from my life to a large extent. Without doing this I would have continued to be sucked into unhealthy and destructive cycles of her self sabotaging, needing me to rescue her, then resenting and undermining the help that she had asked for, then, pathologising and demonising me for withdrawing assistance that she was sabotaging....rinse and repeat.
She this Christmas sent me a note saying she was sad I hadn't stopped by and that it made her have to once more face the "reality of family breakdown". The whole message was of the tone that the problem was not her behaviour but my feelings, and that, once they vanished, we would once more be able to resume a relationship.
When I left her a note explaining my boundaries and encouraging her to stick to them if she wanted a relationship with me, she simply forwarded me a CZcams clip of Dr Sam Vaknin explaining how Narcissists abuse you (as such, she effectively accused me of having a personality disorder and of abusing her - in other words, having boundaries makes me the bad guy.)
Many of the other parents you describe sound similar to my mother.
Hi Prince, I’m so sorry to hear your story. So many things resonated. And actually I had a similar thing from my mum this year. She sent a card saying she wants to hear from me ‘when I am ready’. On the plus side, that’s the first time (ever?) that she has acknowledged that I have a say in the relationship! On the downside, I feel the connotation is that, as in your case, it’s more like she’s humouring my feelings and once I get over my problems, I should repent and get back to conforming to their demands.
I applaud you for your boundaries. It is so hard to do. Especially when we are accused of being the abusers. It’s maddening… but I keep trying to remind myself it’s all a part of their delusion. I don’t need their validation and even if I’m the only one who knows the truth, that is enough.
Hang in there, my friend, you’re not alone. ❤️🩹
Although both your mother's are from your perspective, hoping your feelings are a fad that passes (which is wrong to not acknowledge them as real emotions and figure out a way to heal); you are also both putting your mother's on the defensive with the change or else ultimatum. If someone were accusing you of something you did not see as true in yourself, would you not defend your emotions? Although mother's play an integral role in forming your emotional base; as adults it is your job now to either rewire what you feel does not work for you, or reimagine your life through your own adult eyes. If your first move is to blame or outright eliminate, then you are NOT really addressing anything. This sets you up for guilt and anger later in life when your mother's have passed and there is no chance at rectifying the emotions constructively. This does not apply to actual physical or mental abuse done intentionally. If you could walk in each other's shoes, you would see the perspective will always be skewed and that trying to understand may be all that is possible
The thing is estrangement and alienation can be intertwined. A teenage mind can be highly emotional and ready to take a parent's side. One parent can say actually a small amount against the targeted parent to validate the emotional teenager's negative feelings. The targeted parent can have had an emotional event that pushed away the child further exacerbating the issues. Mental health is probably mixed in on all sides.
It's wonderful you're studying psychology. It will empower and prepare you to dealing with the narcissism you've suffered.
I hope so, and thank you! I think the more therapists there are out there who really, truly get it, the better.
You’re doing Amazing 😊 Keep up being AWsome!! Cheers From Canada ❤
Thank you so much!!! Love your positivity! Sending it right back to you 😍
❤to all scapegoats
And back you you 💚♥️
The courts gave custody of my children to my brother's in-laws citing that I was an abused woman(even though I was not in contact with him) That my PTSD was a problem , that my first husband suicide was problem even that happened decades before my children were concieved. Now my kids are saying they are afraid of me and saying that I told them to lie about abuse and I have a one year protective order against me. I don't know if I am estranged or alienated. I never abused or neglected my children. My son even acknowledged that didn't get the support is now saying he is afraid of me. My daughter as well. IDK.
I think part of this is attunement, kids almost always know how to attune to their parents but toxic or unhealthy parents can't attune to their kids only healthy parents seem to know how to do this
Wow- great insight! I really appreciate you sharing this thought. Yes…. I think you are spot on!
Thank you for addressing this issue.
I am currently reading "The True Drama of the Gifted Child: The Phantom Alice Miller - The Real Person" - a revelatory book about the renowned psychoanalyst (Alice Miller), written by her estranged son, Martin Miller.
It turns out that even the late Alice Miller, a highly intelligent and astute woman who famously criticized parents for emotionally neglecting and abusing their children ... was guilty of that very thing herself ... but she couldn't see it. I HIGHLY recommend the book.
I've been devouring your videos for months, but I only feel safe to comment now that my mother has been dead for 6 weeks (I'm 48; she was 78). Even though she would have been physically unable to hurt a fly for the last 6 months of her life, it's amazing how a feeling of unsafety can hang around a person like a miasma. When she passed away, I felt as though a lifelong curse had been lifted from me. I feel light, and free, and optimistic (optimism is new for me! It's wonderful). My only real sadness when she died was for both herself and me that she couldn't have been a kinder mother.
I know what grief feels like: I have experienced heart-rending grief multiple times when the dogs in my life have died - the kind of grief that makes you cry every day for weeks, and wonder if it's possible to die of a broken heart.
But when my mother died, I felt relief. I feel sad that my dogs were more of a family to me than my mother. I'm not a religious person, but I thank god for dogs.
I went to her funeral. I had to endure listening to people who were not her children eulogize her as "an angel" who "lived for her family", and who was "so proud" of her children. The "angel" comment hurt, until I remembered that Lucifer was an angel, too.
Behind closed doors, she was cruel, particularly to me (her only daughter). To give some examples: she told me that my father became a "bad person" when I was born; hence she blamed my existence for ruining her marriage (I KNEW that was an outrageous and untrue statement even as she said it, but even so, it STILL left me in absolute despair, and agonizing over the validity of my existence). She once expressed her worry to me that the only career I was qualified for was as a prostitute (despite the fact that I had recently graduated with a degree in applied science, and I was so utterly repressed and ashamed of myself that I was as chaste as snow).
She chose to have no close friends, so she used me as her companion, confidante, and counselor, until I left home in my mid twenties (another book recommendation: "Leaving Home: The Art of Separating from Your Difficult Family", by David Celani - brilliant!). The things she told me about my father still make my skin crawl (you could probably fairly accuse her of alienating me from my father, although he did a pretty thorough job of that himself. I have been estranged from him since I was 16).
I had almost no contact with her in the last several years of her life (I lived far away from her, and I would reluctantly return her infrequent phone calls when I felt up to it. For the last decade, she had my older brother living with her. I would characterize her relationship with him as emotionally incestuous).
Just like the mothers in the study you mentioned, I know my mother painted a rosy picture of her relationship with me to the outside world. But she told me countless times that I was over-sensitive, lazy, and a worrywart. Once she told my partner that she thought I needed psychological help (in other words, any problems she might have acknowledged having with me were due entirely to my character defects or psychological problems). I am 100% certain that she saw no fault in herself or her parenting.
Hi Samantha, thank you so much for such a moving comment. I am struck by how long you suffered from the covert cruelty of the things your mum said to you. I am shocked at some of them and can only imagine how hard it would have been to hear her defence at the funeral. I will definitely look at the books you recommend too- thanks for sharing those.
For now, I just want to say how glad I am that you are finally free from such a toxic relationship. And I’m glad you are part of this community and feel free to share your story. I feel very honoured that you are here. 💕💕
My mother abused me physically and covertly mentally, but she was controlled by a malignant father (my dad) narcissist. It has been a painful and confusing journey
I’m so sorry to hear this. I hope you’re safe now 🧡💛💚
@@thescapegoatclub like you, I'm studying psychology at uni. However, my narcissistic father is still around at age 90 (I'm 60 years) His abuse towards me never gets easier to process. Since mum passed on I have to be there for him (somewhat). He has meddled in my life and caused so much unnecessary angst, which has sadly overflowed onto my darling son who is now age 27. I am from Yorkshire UK, but have lived in Australia most of my life.
@@sophie-963 I’m sorry to hear this. You say you have to be there for him. I’d say you have a choice. And if, if, you decide to support him, you get to define the terms of that support. Can you define what is ok for you, and what is unacceptable? 🧡
@@thescapegoatclub when my mother died I made an agreement with my dad that I'd be prepared to visit him/engage with him if he left the past in the past and didn't attempt to ensnare me. What was I thinking?! It didn't take him long to break our agreement and I am again very traumatised. The main reason now for me to stay in contact is for a substantial inheritance. Hopefully my psycho sister won't succeed in having me written out of his will. Keeping contact at the bare minimum now, but I have been suffering CPTSD again this past week. Thank you for your kind words and I hope your week has has gone well for you thus far.
My entire family ignores my existence. I'm alone and crying on Easter. I'm done trying only to keep getting hurt over and over again. I'm done. I'm so alone 😢
I am so sorry you’re experiencing such a difficult situation. I hope you are able to take comfort in knowing there are many of us in similar situations and it does not reflect on you. You are worth love and if they can’t see that or give it to you, it is on them, and there are many, many more good people in the world. If you are in need, I hope you can reach out to a helpline to talk this through with one of the kind souls in our world. Sending support and ❤️🩹❤️🩹
@The Scapegoat Club Thank you so much! Yes, I did reach out to a help line and feel much better. I am also in therapy. I'm doing the work! They are not capable of dealing with their own issues. I keep going. I appreciate you very much ❤️
@@lauriemorales7605 this makes my heart happy 😍
@The Scapegoat Club Mine too 🥰
There are two sides to everything, and two diverse perspectives, one from the child, and one from the parent, and NEITHER is experiencing the exact same dynamics. Two different generations, two different places in life, and I see it as the child who has not lived the same life as the parent, passing judgement on their parenting skills which is only from the perspective of a child; and the parent assuming because they have already experienced their child's age that they know exactly what they are going through, but failing to see it is a different experience because it is NOT their experience. The assumption that parents should shoulder more, and shelf their own emotions so to allow their child to heal, does not address the fact that these "children" are now adults. From the reasoning that they are still children, well that applies to the parents as well... they are someone's child and processing their own emotional journeys. As both adults, one would only ask for what they themselves are willing to acknowledge. If you want a parent to recognize their shortcomings and see you as an individual affected by their decisions; you must also be willing to understand their struggle to be who they are as someone's child and not just as your parent. And a parent must be willing to acknowledge that their experience raising you was from the perspective of their own experience and not the child's, which is different, valid and obviously holds some kind of pain they personally experienced. The blame and defense solves very little. Both parties need to move beyond self and try to see where each other is coming from in their attempt at communication. Making assumptions and accusations tends to shut down communication. People desire to be heard, when they do not feel heard, they start to only focus on their own emotions out of frustration. A good therapist will encourage communication prior to disconnecting. Therapy for each individual is beneficial, but joint therapy is the best way to have each party heard and help them understand what they themselves should be hearing...hopefully from a non judgemental communicative approach.
You have pointed out and not really examined the outcome of something very profound you said. *"The assumption that parents should shoulder more, and shelf their own emotions so to allow their child to heal, does not address the fact that these "children" are now adults. From the reasoning that they are still children, well that applies to the parents as well... "*
Yes. Everyone is now an adult but if the parent refuses to acknowledge that and lower themselves from the 'parent' position into an equal adult position then they are holding themselves in a position of superiority. They continue to see themselves as the decider of whether their 'child' is right or wrong and if they decide the 'child' is wrong then they feel free to disregard the position of the child - regardless of that off-springs age.
So my question to you is, how do you get a parent to humble themselves? How do you get a parent to see you as an equal and treat you as such? If they want to maintain their authority/superiority position then they have to not use their own emotional gaps as an excuse for their inappropriate/abusive behavior. There's a general double standard there. I'm not allowed to use their crappy parenting as an excuse for why I have issues and behave how I do BUT parents are allowed to use the crappy parenting they received as an excuse for their treatment of their children. How do you get people (generally the parents) to own accountability for their behavior when they have as a defense mechanism simply blamed their child for their behavior (if you hadn't done 'x' I wouldn't have done 'y' attitude) or blamed their child's reaction (getting angry/being disrespectful/telling parent off) as the 'problem' and not what they did to garner that reaction?
From my POV that's why more responsibility is on the parent. In my experience it's almost always the attitude of the parent that is the biggest barrier to healing the relationship. Adult children have spent a lifetime listening to and having to accept whatever their parent said/did. As an equal adult if a child says, "You need to learn to listen and stop certain behaviors when I highlight them." the reply general parental reply is "You're not the boss of me. I'm the parent. You don't get to tell me what to do. Who do you think you are? I'm not doing anything wrong. You just need to get over whatever I'm doing or not. That's your problem, not mine."
I agree. Both parties need to consider their perspectives. What would you suggest when parents do not consider their part in things, which is a very common feature in estrangement, and one of the points of the video?
Wish you well in your studies and life goals... I've seen a few episodes recently of yours. I don't find it fascinating, I find it horrific. To me it demonstrates these parents total denial of their behavior and how it has affected their children personally as well as alientating their children in a relationship with them. Just like spousal cheating, marriages don't make it if the cheating partner doesn't have any real empathy toward their partner's feelings of betrayal. The same goes with family or parental betrayal. It sure is about emotional abuse and their neglect to address emotions is abuse, emotional abuse, same old same old. No one owes anyone to endure emotional abuse and brush it udner the rug. My mother did the same thing as so many narcs do when she died she never contacted me before she died as she had estranged years before. I guess that was her last 'knife' in just for old times sake. I can bet you she was the victim those years with anyone she spoke with about me. Complete denial which is a hall mark about narcs...I don't feel that suggesting there is a gap of ages differences is aceptable as in the 70s it was 'normal' for men to abuse their partners, whole neighborhoods knew it was happening and did nothing. Abuse is never right even if the entire culture endures it.
thank you! this is such a validating and truthful comment. you are so right in what you say. there is no excuse for emotional abuse, maybe just reasons why it still continues. doesn't make it ok though.
I think I have normalised it so much, that I still have a tendency to find the arguments behind it. but I do agree- it is horrifying. the damage that this type of abuse does is unmeasurable.
It sounds like you are doing ok. I hope so! Thank you for being here 🥰
Surely both exist? My ex has NPD diagnosed and spent 9 years trying to damage my relationship with our son before he succeeded. Our son became hostile to me and our arguments about that hostility were used as evidence that I was an abusive parent. But our son and I had a lovely relationship until about a month before he left me. His dad argues we're estranged. But without his malicious encouragement, our son would have stayed under my roof as he was quite happy where he was. All I'd ever done was encourage their relationship so it was shocking to discover that his dad had been undermining me for years. Just because his dad chooses to define the issue as estrangement doesn't wash with me. His dad coercively controlled me and now he's doing the same with our son. This doesn't mean I don't believe in estrangement, it's just that I know it isn't why it happened in my case. I work in child protection, I know what abuse looks like.
I'm so sorry for what you are going through. Yes, there are both alienation and estrangement. Often it's perspective that differentiates. I hope that with time your son will see through the manipulation. Wishing you well.
Do you ever wonder if alienation is the result of childhood upbringing in a toxic family? In other words, there were definite issues within the family from the moment the child came into existence. The child is the product of this toxicity/dysfunctionality and later as an adult when they respond by alienation they are simply being what they were taught to be. They were not taught how healthy people deal with conflict or uncomfortable feelings. They unconsciously are following the script they were given or they have no script at all. Nobody really cared about them. This is not to say their behavior is justified. They don't realize that they are punishing their parent. They don't really know what they are doing. Or maybe they do know but feel leaving is all they have left and if the parent feels punished, well so be it. If the kid goes back into the relationship, the parent has learned nothing and will continue to treat the child in the ways that led the child to leave in the first place. Maybe it is simply a matter of realizing that blood is the only thing you shared. You are, in fact, very different people with different values. Maybe we can learn something from birds: they sacrifice a lot to raise their young, but eventually the babies fly away and don't look back.. Do we expect too much from each other? Do I impose my values on my parent and reject theirs? Moms don't want to take care of kids forever. They want to be free, too. One of us has to accept the things we don't like in the other if we stay connected. If neither party can change or adapt, alienation/estrangement results.
Hi Nancy, yes, I definitely think that these patterns repeat. If a child is not taught how to manage relational conflict, but instead sees things like the silent treatment or stonewalling as ways to manage things, then what else can be expected in adulthood, unless the child figures things out themselves. Thanks so much for your amazing comment!
Alienation is child abuse by the pathological parent, it is not a child trying a power move over the other adult. Its scientifically proven children do not reject parents, infact abused children have an insatiable thirst to be reunited with the abusive parent
Can you share the research behind this? Thanks!