Damascus Steel - REAL or FAKE?
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- čas přidán 22. 05. 2018
- Out with the misnomer.
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I'm a 27 years old HEMA instructor and sword performer from Poland. I've been fencing since I was 12, evolving through sport fencing, polish saber, kenjutsu, to finally settle on renaissance german longsword (go Team Meyer!).
I do blacksmithing for a living. Feel free to check out my crafts at:
www.audentia.eu
Now go throw some cuts! - Sport
This is the kind of CZcams content I love to watch after midnight. Calm, educational, and covering obscure topics. The perfect supplement to my terrible sleep schedule
Thomas Northeast yeah the voice make you sleepy.
I couldn't relate more
I am watching this at 3:50 am and i have online school tommorow yikes
pro tip: watch movies at Flixzone. I've been using them for watching loads of movies during the lockdown.
@Casen Ace yup, been watching on flixzone for since december myself :D
I came here to help ease a knife geek I know into letting go of calling pattern welded steel "Damascus" and now I'm explaining 40k. This is the mark of good content.
It's great knowing that there are people like you keeping all this ancient knowledge alive. Keep up the good work buddy!
A lot of people are going to be butt hurt about this video 🤣
I am one of them😂
I would say the sword at the end of the video is pattern welded from a basic steel, and and a high-nickel steel or something. This is because the etch looks very deep, and you can see the "cold shuts" where the layers didnt weld together completely.
Didn't expect imperial inquisition!
nobody expects it... only heretics do.
Nobody expects the Imperial inquisition!
I don't know how will gets the cross reference. :D
@@xj770HUN Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Knew it. Just started watching forging on youtube and was like "how can all these mixed material twisted pieces be 'damascus' if theyre using all sorts of different materials?!"
Great video, very clear and coherent
^check out this guy's channel (and imgur too!)
The Sword's Path BTW, I'll be in Warsaw from the 25th of June til the 30th, of you wanna get beer or something.
Oh, you better be ready for the beer then!
Nice video.
Just one minor correction: those early swords were most likely Austrian and not German. The style is typical for the hallstatt-culture.
BTW: the steel that allowed the Romans to build swords and armours way ahead of its time came from Germany and was not your typical iron ore, but fragments of a giant meteor that had obliterated the entire area so that we didn't find any artefacts predating this event, which happened beginning of the Roman culture.
Ah yes, the "Ferrum Noricum"! Also, the swords in the picture are attributed to the late La Tène culture, Hallstatt's successors.
Ahhh yes, and if I remember correctly, because there wasn't a huge abundance of it, the armour and weaponry made from it were kept for veteran legionairies, such as the Evocati and Eagle cohorts.
4:20 You mention carbide formers. A lot of really great steels are actually pretty low carbon but there's a heck of a lot of materials science that goes into them to make them tougher, stronger and more ductile than anything we used to have, especially in the last ten-fifteen years.
4:42 Ret. Austenite : I doubt there's any retained austenite in a medieval sword, as there'd be nowhere near enough Mn, Ni or Mo. Pearlite's not a phase; it's a microstructure. Martensite's not a phase; it's the result of a type of transformation. e.g. Zero carbon austenite (basically just iron) undergoes a martensitic transformation and becomes ferrite with a different orientation. "Martensite" is ferrite with carbon, which couldn't diffuse out due to the rapid cooling, elongating the bcc structure to bct.
>carbides
Of course, maraging steels being a great example - they're very low on carbon and yet form carbides through precipitation hardening ("maraging"). Wootz is on the higher carbon end of the spectrum, however.
>phases/structures
imgur.com/VVP8I2r nomenclature, maybe? I'm used to calling Martensite a phase but nor me nor my uni teachers are infallible. I've always thought that microstructure and phase are interchangeable in alloys.
Also, I believe retained austenite did occur in medieval swords, mostly as a problem - with their imperfect temperature control, its formation would be unavoidable. Do note that ret. austenite was a major problem in the steel industry back in the XIXth century, long before smelters started alloying lots of Mn, Ni, Mo into steels.
Ha, Harry Bhadesia's one of my lecturers and a really great guy. It is a phase but a metastable one. If you look at an Fe-C phase diagram, you won't find martensite on there.
Microstructure is not the same as phase. For example, I can have two pieces of steel that are both pure ferrite. One of them might have a grain size of 100 micrometres and the other might have a grain size of 10 micrometres. They contain the same phase but the 100 micrometre sample is going to be far worse for toughness and strength, due to less crack deflection and the Hall-Petch relationship.
Retained austenite is one of the commonly-emplyed tools that makes modern steel good- see TWIP steels, twinning induced plasticity. Retained austenite can transform to martensite (being a metastable phase) on deformation at low Ts. It's an energy absorption mechanism and allows for ductility by that shear I mentioned earlier.
Oh, that clears things out. Thank you!
As for retained austenite, it can also decrease toughness, converting into large-grained martensite under stress. That mechanism made it a problem 200 years ago, and I believe it would be as much of a problem long before, in medieval times. Things are different nowadays, when we can control and manipulate its formation into desired percentages and stabilize it.
420
This was an excellent video from someone well versed in the science and art of swordsmithing. Thankyou.
(BTW I think your sword is pattern welded, but you could write what I know about swordsmithing and Damascus steel on the head of a pin with a 4" nail).
*Thank you for sharing! I appreciate your voice in the topic of "damascus" whether it is real or fake. I agree with this video 100%! Also, I believe your knife is acid etched :)*
Have eny idea what chemicals are added to the steel before forging 1:9and 1:11
You have such an easy voice to listen to, calm and collected and covering interesting topics.
From witch steel is the blade of the lupine Made of ?
Excellent video and explanation
I heard the method to make true Damascus with the carbon nanotubes and stuff was lost to history. It this true or false
It is a half truth. Enough blades survive from the time for the process to have been replicated. Metallurgy being the delicate balance of inconstant chemical inputs and barely consistent output that it is, particularly in forging blades, there will always be people claiming because we've never made a sword that matches the hype(hint: no thing can ever match it's hype).
"True" Damascus for all intents and purposes beyond the mythical is just an originally forged ancient pattern-welded blade built of imported ingots. "Modern" Damascus likes to claim the same hype that the ancient texts capitalised upon. Nanoscale structures are emergent within any kind of forging (or anything really, the hype tries to make it sound like actual nano-tech was involved when it's clearly not) and it's cherrypicking to claim Damascus is unique in any nanoscale regard beyond the obvious effects of pattern welding.
I think it is far better to label them as metal forged from a metal ingot that was made in a specific way, in a sealed crucible. The special ore had to have traces of very specific metals for them to form the famous Damascus Wootz crystaline structures.
Solomon's Mine is one known location with ore suitable to make Damascus Wootz, and probably where Syria got their ore from. There were more than likely others though.
Other mines around the globe have different metal traces in their ore, but only a handful more than likely had the metals necessary to allow them to be viable to make Damascus Wootz.
That is more than likely where all the stories and legends came from, some Damascus Blades showed a resistance to rust, some were actually really strong, some were very flexible.
While they were all indeed Real Damascus, their metal makeups were different.
Pendray showed that he could create his own mixes of metals that as long as they had Vanadium and a few other important metals in them, they created viable Wootz.
His Real Damascus Stainless Steel blades were gorgeous. Shame he only made a handful of them.
Those following in his footsteps and have the ability to make Damascus Wootz Ingots should make a call out to world bodies and ask for a sample from old legendary mines in their countries and look to see which ones have that rare ore that is compatible.
I thought wootz steel swords were the original damascous swords. Supposedly being capable of splitting normal sword in two.
About the blade in the end, if was fake you surely could make a better one, a most elaborated pattern.
Seems to be layered forged, but too few layers and no folding.
I am right?
Great video. Those background shots are aesthetic.
How about valyrian steel 😂
I think it is crucible and damascus. But only a very few times. It looks like sometimes (near the handle) the two steels are not connected properly so I would cross out acid etched fake. And one of the steel's look homogeneous and the other has a patterny surface. So I'm guessing crucible and damascus.
I caught the poke at Walter Sorrell.
I think the knife is crystalline damascus
I'm curious, why did you include a picture of Walter Sorrels when you talked about "wilful ignorance on certain smiths part"?
If you're accusing him of being ignorant of the difference between wootz crucible steel and modern pattern welded damascus (and yes, it looks very much like you are) you are very VERY much mistaken...
I went here to know what the hype is all about cause I prefer a clean blade with visible hamon. If damascus is better then I guess I'll stick to it
Thank you for the video.
My guess on your blades at the end is that it is faked a test, not pattern welded.
If it is petenwell there they assumed you did one, maybe two folds at the most.
In any case, it does not look like any other pattern welded blade I've seen.
do u make Damascus Steel
Man what are those fog effects lol
But how woud they be etched in the ancient world??
Interesting. as for the blade i would have to say pattern welded but only pressed one way due to the fairly solid area on the side. Plus woots would be extremely hard to make, as the art was largely lost when mass produced crucible steel came into being during the industrial revolution. Though there are people researching the process and have made great strides to redicovering the full process, we are not there yet.
It looks fake, because of this wooden pattern and the colour but I dont know what to think about the wipped layer. :/
Could be a result of different etching and repolishing cycles.
very nice and informative video , please add more.
Very nice, informative narration! Thanks!
- Rosie-Anne Quvus AKA "Carla Satana"
Nice video man
I dont have the knowledge to judge for fake or real at the end of the video
How and where to find small blades for bushcraft purposes of real Damascus steel is that possible or is it impossible
Great video keep going
I smashed the subscribe button
make us a damascus knife just to compare ?
I heard once that the steel was imported from place somewhere in India.
Interestingly, 10th century Muslim chronicler Al Biruni states that Indian steel has major issues in the cold winters of lands of the Rus. Perhaps the high hardness combined with low temperature causes issues with brittleness?
It was most likely a phenomenon known as "cold shortness", caused by too high phosphorus content in steel. It's been a major problem for steelmakers throughout the ages.
Interesting.
Though, why would he specify Indian swords?
Are crucible steel swords more prone to this phosphorous issue than other, "ordinary" bloomery works and pattern welded ones?
Promoting ignorance about the proper use of the term 'Damascus Steel' is indeed to be frowned upon, but Exterminatus seems a bit harsh. Surely a quick visit from the Officio Assassinorum would be sufficient...?
Bulat (also bulad, bolat, bolod, bold) is actually turkic and mongolic word just means "steel"
the steel is same but i did read that they mixed somthing like some kind of leafs with the steel to make it resist rust
im from damascus my grandfather had a knife similar to the ones you showed
i think it was a gift from his friend
Obada Ak Did ur know the original recipe to mixed and forged it.
no lol i just red that when i was searching about damascus steel
@@karlkarl7282 that's cool it makes u respect weaponsmiths of that time how hard there work was and its hard to know how each smith made a sword because it was the job secret u pass it down to your children only
@@sirano4042 no doubt
i think its more about their technique of sword making.
good steel + good blacksmith = high quality sword.
Etched fake.
1. You said it only took a couple of hours to make.
2. Large portions un-marked.
Czekam na kolejny film.
Jedna rada : Bądź cierpliwy i wytrwały.
Trochę czasu upłynie zanim przyciągniesz tłumy (o ile to twój cel).
Powodzenia szermierzu.
To me, I can understand when amateurs get this wrong. But when smiths themselves start mixing the terms up, I get angry.
I even caught a smith using the term ‘wootz’ to refer to pattern welding. I guess some smiths are just not aware that you can make patterns without pattern welding.
And I believe your blade to be pattern welded
Good video man!
Why wouldn't they forge the steel in Damascus ?
Because they can't accept that the best steel was invented by Arabs...
@@bretteur2legende probably. Jesus was born in the middle east, he most probably looks like an Arab as well.
@@MohamadKaakati Yes but in the churches they portray him like a blond californian surfer lol
bretteur2legende Jesus was a Jew, middle eastern and yeah they do portray him like Thor except in the orthodox churches like in Greece and Lebanon. There he’s brown.
@@whiterunguard6516 jesus was a muslim like all the other prophets
Haha, you really don't like Alec, do you? :P
I enjoy his content, but have been annoyed by his calling pattern welding damascus - would love to see more people taking on actual crucible steel projects, despite it being technically inferior.
For yours, my guess is pattern weld with very few layers/folds?
Hello there
The blade at the end looks an edched, the ones done with nail polishes. (Just guessing, not a blacksmith, not an metal expert, just another random dude on the internet.
Frank _ The question to you should be more basic than the one asked...” Is it edched or etched “ What do you think just another dude on the internet?
that Warhammer drop caught me off guard lol
Ooh this is helpful
your Plosives are popping on the microphone
Is that #Alitabattleangel sword
Lol at the music from Witcher
It looks very rough in some areas, and the pattern is irregular, but, like you said, that could be faked. But you wouldn’t do that, would you? *eyes suspiciously*
Anyone noticed the Witcher3 soundtrack during the title cards?:D
Also Thanks for this vid, this is exactly what I was looking for:D
I thought that as well
Dude . . . Love your work, but get a Pop Filter, please.
without Wootz it's not aDamascus steel. done. have a nice day :_:
So we still don't know the true forging methods? Because there are signs of carbon nanotubes in the steel. I can't quite remember which was lost, the method or the metal. And because they did indeed buy the metal from other places around the world, it would mean the forging method is still not known?
The method us known today. And gas been for quite some years: if you melt ore that has vanadium in it in a crucible together with a carbon sourse, like bones, and everything went good in the melting, you will get the pattern in the crystaline structure in the ingot.
@@Xirque666 Using traditional methods to achieve what we call Damascus steel is not the same steel as it was 2,000 years ago, so no, the method still isn't found.
Patern welded IT IS!!!!
not a good enough view on your blade to make a decision and also very hard to tell without holding it
So... the word "damascus" went down a similar path as the word "theory" then .
Sir thank you for your explanation on your video, however, putting all that a side, I remember when my grand father, (from Lebanon, Hamat) worked fixing guns for the police, army, and making knives, and taught me how to melt steel add carbon, and other elements teaching me to make the same material that he used, from there a continued making different patterns of what we know by what ever we like to call it. Really I don’t care how it is call, but I can say the designs taught by my GRANDFATHER, are nice and very strong. I like what I produce and I thanks him for passing alone all he new, thank you and have a good day.
Can't be legitimate Damascus, because we still don't know exactly how to make the wootz ingots. Some people have come close, but it still eludes us to this day. From what I've gathered in my research. I'm guessing it's pattern welded, but it would be etched.
If the end result can be replicated, which it can, than it can be reproduced.
i've just started to look into this topic. any tips or milestones ?? what terms should i search for?
But we do know how to make the ingot, and we have known for a long time.
calling mokume gane damascus triggers me
I'm hearing some Christopher Walken in this guy
modern pattern welding looks cool but seems pointless, your folding 2 sub par knife steels to make a fancy pattern in a knife, its like taking 6 two cylinder engines and grafting them together to make a v12, why bother when there are v12 already about, so many modern cpm steels just exceed modern pattern welded steels.
Why does this guy sound like the European Christopher Walken?
I had the power, the likes where at 999.
Geralt of rivia here
Lol i thought my game had opened when i heard that sound
Hey,the blade looks nice anyway.
Looks dont last.
@@Mitch_B67 ahh, that will be my midlife crisis's theme.
@@ray-al15 hahaha
yes mostly youtube forger is just too lazy, I can see their quality from the process on how they make the blade. Too much waste, beautiful pattern no deep technique and rushed finishing.
With modern technologies of smithing it should be easy to make more layered metal. In exception of the source of highly carboned ore there should be no problem making something close to the real damascus steel in a few days.
Your voice is like, if Bob Ross made swords. Xd
Fajnie że wyjaśniłeś te wszystkie kwestie autentyczności i pochodzenia "stali damasceńskiej" xDDD bo tak naprawdę to mało kto wie jak to jest na prawdę. Częściej wrzucaj filmy na kanał to zrobisz karierę jak skallgrim czy coś ;) Powodzenia.
Ps. Ten twój dziwer to autentyk i to (bez urazy) dość kiepsko wykonany. Widać tam jebutne delaminacje.
>dziwer
Pewnie, to jest syfny kawałek pozgrzewany ze śmieci, które znalazłem w warsztacie, nawet bez poczyszczenia przed skuwaniem. Uznałem, że nada się idealnie do filmu, bo widać w nim właśnie miejsca złego zgrzewu, w dodatku na linii zanurzenia w kwasie.
or know of any good companys or blacksmiths that make an ship to canada lol
7:41 why is the background the Quran?
świetny film, zawsze mnie wkurza jak oglądam te filmy w których wszystko nazywają damastem nawet w wykuci ogniu gdzie powinni być "mistrzowie" nie odróżniają dziweru od damastu. Wielu "kowalom internetowym" przydałoby się obejrzeć te nagranie
etched fake, awesome video
Modern steel does not exceed the qualities or performance of genuine wootz steel. True wootz steel is more flexible, durable and able to hold a sharp edge for much longer. The blade you show at the end is not even from crucible steel, let alone wootz steel.
Modern high carbon spring steel will outperform traditionally made steel in a sword, even though that traditional crucible steel will be very close like the result in the Ulfberth swords.
Hello Salam, you are one of my new sensei's and I will one day hopefully repay you for making me a master of sword.
Thankyou Sir, keep it slicey.
\m/
The sword at the end; much of me is thinking it's a fake, but another part of me is thinking it's real. But I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say it's fake. You said you made it a while back "in literally just a few hours". I would expect the production of high quality steels to take way longer than that, and the working of such steels similarly long. But as for visual judgement, it's a rather ugly blade, and one that's consistently level in some areas while marred in others. I feel that it's not even done; you're showing an unfinished blade, or one that failed during forging. It doesn't seem etched in any way.
That's my answer; unfinished if not faked.
What are you even talking about.
Why do you sound eerily like J'aquen H'Ghar from Game Of Thrones??
acid etched
I think it`s fake
Haha i can huff bamboo all day it's absolutely fake
At least my grandfathers they used to know how to make good stuff...
Lets just call the real aincient stuff Valyrian Steel.
Folded Damascus, real Damascus is too difficult in make in several hours and acid would make a much nicer and complex pattern.
Thank you for video. Its always funny to talk guys that are overhyping particular typ of sword/swordmaking culture.....but rarely do they realise that modern technology allows us to make much batter quality steel
..that blade at the end, lets say its acid etched...
Emparor protects
Thanks for the explanation, great work
Damscuz steal
Ne pryach akcent brat TY RUSSKIY!
All three.
At times you sound like Christopher Walken.
unfortunately for your argument, language is both organic and alive. so that when most people say that patterned welded steel is Damascus, then patterned welded steel is Damascus. No way around it.
You must know that the Damascene sword is the strongest sword in the world, but its manufacture has stopped since the 18th century and I doubt that there is anyone who knows the real way of making it.
This is not Damacus steel.
The blade in the end is a fake. It looks ugly, and that is my only resoning.
#wouldnttrimmybushwithit
Right but if you are about to buy a blade you cannot polish it before you make the payment. So that method is of no use. Sorry.