All About Make Up Air | This Old House
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- čas přidán 1. 07. 2024
- Richard Trethewey is in the Cape Ann kitchen with a lesson in make-up air
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Richard Trethewey gives a demonstration on the importance of make-up air in the Cape Ann kitchen.
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All About Make Up Air | This Old House
/ thisoldhouse - Jak na to + styl
Finally!!! I've had this question for sooo long and I couldn't find an answer!!! Thank you TOH!!!
Excellent demonstration.
I don't have that problem - I have a leaky older home! Lol
We live in a 1962 built rambler, no problem with extra air either lol
LOL
leaky home heated with wood is the best!
Amazing video so well put together
Brilliant demonstration :) now I get what "makeup air" is
Great explanation. Thank you
Awesome demo
I'll favorite this video for the next time that I build a $1M house.
If this info was well known, building codes would make it mandatory to implement this when installing exhausts. We all deserve a fresh and greaseless kitchen.
great topic
Wish some of these short videos were longer and a little more in depth.
Nice
Good information ℹ️ thanks 🙏
What brand makeup air return system is this? Where can I purchase one?
I would build an inlet on the back of the stove or wall. Duct it to the outside, with a flap on the inlet (outside). No motor, just the duct work. When you turn on the stove vent, air is sucked from outside through the duct work you have installed. Since the stove is hot, this will offset the cold air from outside. During the summer it will work almost as well, sucking the hotter than outside air supply, away from the stove, but won't work as well as well as winter time.
Randy ... that's how NEW commercial kitchens are done.
Sure, and the kitchen staff quit in the summer due to unbearable heat and humidity, and plumbing bursts or staff quit in the dead of winter.
Excellent demonstration. Also mention that no makeup air could lead to a dangerous situation of pulling carbon monoxide into the home from gas hot water heater exhaust, etc.
that risk depends entirely on where such units are located and how they are ventilated for combustion air etc.
Once I added a makeup air system for the kitchen fan, I tied it into my (80%) furnace, too, so the furnace drafts better. Literally any appliance that ejects air from the home can benefit from a makeup air system (tho not all *required*)
Very informative.
Why not put the inside vent from the air recovery system under the fridge to help with efficiency?
That’s what I did. Increases the fridge efficiency, and expels dust bunnies from under the fridge 😂
Which Brand or model number fresh air system did you use in this video?
Whats the make up air unit you install in this house, with filter, and heat ?
Great video. Thanks. My only question is what’s the ideal location and distance for makeup air in relation to the hood? Presume it has to be close and in a location that pulls steam upwards?
I hear ya, me too. I would like to vent fresh air behind range and below hood so it gets mixed in and goes right up & out to avoid having to preheat it and reduce exhausting conditioned air. I havent yet seen it done like that and I'm wondering why.
Nope. It doesn’t have to be close or any particular orientation (up/down). As long as it’s in the same enclosed airspace as the kitchen, which normally means anywhere in the house. Interior doors are supposed to have gaps under them, so even in another room, makeup air will distribute fresh air to balance pressure in the whole house.
This sure is interesting to the extremely wealthy people who can afford to build this way. The rest of us are putting in range hoods that have no vent to the outside and basically do nothing but light the stove and get grease everywhere. It was amazing to see how much air that hood was moving and creating a negative pressure in that big kitchen.
Nonsense...those pseudo range hoods installed in 99% of spec homes are designed to spray grease all-over your cabinets as a feature, not a con. It helps condition the wood and prologue their life.
(Sarcasm)
@@cup_and_cone Hamburger Helper grease is certified by J.D. Power to extend the life of your 60-100% wood cabinets by 3-35 years. Plus how will you know your Ellio's pizza is burning in the oven when you're upstairs playing NHL 20 while your fancy range hood is sucking all the smoke outside?
Superinsulated homes save homeowners cost in energy over the long-term. It's not about wealth, it's about not being a dumbass about what to prioritize when people buy homes.
Depending on the city code, there is a limit of 400 CFM where you do not need MUA, so you can have a Vent with 400CFM vented out and no Make-up-air needed.
Are we not all rocking teppanyaki grills these days?
All of these videos consider only the kitchen exhaust fan, but ignore the bathroom fan and the furnace (or do all such houses have heat pumps?), and, it appears, the make-up air fan is controlled by the switch for the kitchen exhaust fan. Are there make-up air systems that sense the need for make-up air (say, with a differential pressure sensor, like the meters that they show in some of the demos) and turn on automatically and introduce enough air to make up for however much air is actually needed [say, if the kitchen fan and bathroom fan (and furnace) are on at the same time]? [Variable-speed, or, at least, multiple-speed fan on the make-up unit?] Or, are "tight" houses still leaky-enough for a furnace and bathroom fan to not need make-up air? -Or, does the furnace get its air (combustion AND flue) from outside? [Every house I've ever lived in had a multi-speed kitchen fans, too.]
Apparently you can use pressure sensors and program the system to turn on when the need arisea
You’re on the right track. A makeup air system need not perfectly “match” a fan. It can simply be a valve that opens when needed (large enough to meet any demand). No makeup air fan is required. Makeup air will naturally be pulled in to equalize indoor pressure. Also right, a heat pump or 90%+ furnace don’t cause net air expulsion.
And what about your dryer exhaust?
This NEW house
I have old house with no hood vent, just a kitchen side door to open ...
How do you cool the makeup air in the summer? Could be 6 tons of air conditioning. Where do you relieve the condensate?
Altho they do it here, there’s not really a need to have a separate heater/cooling for the makeup air. As long as it disperses, it will just put a little more demand on the primary furnace/AC. Only if your makeup air vent is right next to where people are does a separate system make sense. Put it in a corner (mine is behind the fridge) and no one will notice a stream of warm or cold makeup air.
He didn't explain how the makeup air's blower is controlled. Apparently by the same switch that controls the range hood blower. But what if you have multiple exhausts, e.g. bathroom fans, washer/dryer exhaust, etc.?
Could possibly sense a pressure difference and come on, but yes they did not explain the connection.
it probably runs 24/7 on a pressure sensor to maintain balance with all the other fans if/when they turn on, or tied into HVAC (for temperature set- when to turn on the coils or not)
Definitely could have explained more
Current sensor on the hood, so the makeup air knows what the speed the range hood is on.
That’s why it’s not ideal to have a blower in the makeup air system. Just as with his window hole, you don’t need to blow makeup air in. Just open a vent/valve, and air will rush in to equalize pressure. Mine is triggered from kit fan current sensor, furnace draft inducer, and smart switches on bath fans.
In Canada houses have air exchangers with heat recovery cores. It sounds much easier, and efficient than using a heating element.
Funny thing is, we have those in the US as well.
This Old House has episodes with Richard explaining how they work.
But do they operate at 700cfms? I doubt that.
@@MariuszChr
Why would you doubt that?
Would you as a manufacturer make a lower cfms heat exchanger when the 700 will work for every situation below it's rating?
@@scotttovey EVRs usually run much much lower cfms than this - those are designed to slowly but continuously replace/ventilate inside air
@@MariuszChr
Now; aren't you glad I'm not working on your HVAC system? 😏
👍😎
Did they put tape over the USG Durock logo? I mean, really? And yes, with all these air-tight homes now, you need to have a conditioned-makeup air supply (filters, dehumidification)... I had new windows put in on one side of the house, and now, running the hood fan, it will pull air in from the fireplace chimney. Fixed that by..opening a window! LOL...
Gotta pay to play! Durock doesn't send that sponsor check, TOH slaps some tape on it
LOL
Hold on, I got your make up air! Hahahaha
Could you please send me the specs of the make up air unit?
I have two kitchen range hoods 650 CFM each and need one of those make air units.
Thank you!
5K installed, hang on to your checkbook ! LOL
Why not add the make up air vent near the cook top?
And GREASE, guess about the same to clean, sounded funny when he said it.
One of the largest problems with modern, airtight homes...it doesn't matter what your R value is, leaving on a bathroom exhaust or kitchen hood for extended periods is creating that low-pressure zone and making your conditioner work harder than it needs to.
Timers on bath fan ! It's so cheap ! Just requires a neutral . But a modern house should have one in the switch box. I trained my mom to use one ! I told her if she doesn't I'm hard wiring the light to the exhaust together 🤣
Do people just leave those turned on all day?!
The answer to that is heat (or cool!) recovery ventilation. In Finland its mandatory in newer houses (past 20 years or so). All the exhaust vents move air through a heat exchanger that heats the incoming air. For example the house wher I live in, incoming 90 litres per second of air is pre-heated with outgoing 100 litres per second (or so) exhaust air. That's enough to heat the incoming air from +7 celcius to about +21 c, if the outgoing air is +22 c. Exhaust air is then cooled back to about +11 c. The procedure can be reversed if its summer.
If one were to install a kitchen fan like in the video, it would require compensation (or make up air, as said here) from the heat recovery ventilator. This can be done with pressure regulated switches. Ofcourse that means the outgoing air isn't necessarily enought to heat/cool all the incoming air, but that's why we have electric heaters built into the units and heat pumps for air conditioning.
Your fan is not changing the pressure in the room enough to make a measurable difference in the power consumption of your air conditioner.
How much tho
400 CFM is a LOT of air for a residential kitchen exhaust! That's about what passes through a 20" box style fan on high speed. OTOH, that stove looks like it might be a 6 burner cook top, which is not your normal residential stove. I have to wonder what people are thinking when they build stuff like this and it might not get used to capacity more than twice a year at most.
Maybe they eat a lot of beans and fart a lot.
@@davenz000 Well after the expensive kitchen, they can't afford anything but rice and beans.
Get a Commercial kitchen in your own home, so you can sell cookies at the farmers market.
😎
Forgot to add on my comment; the regular heat and cool unit is more efficient than the duct work heater in the video; so why use the in duct heater? Looked like it was a electrical heating element anyway; the most inefficient way to heat.
The only reason would be so you don't get a cold draft, and to satisfy the building code requirement for makeup air at >400cfm.
There's no good solution until someone can come up with a heat recovery unit that can handle grease and smoke
Agree completely, this is like solving the problem by plugging in a big electric heater in your kitchen. That's more efficient? I think not.
I thought for a moment the room was so sealed it was going to create a vacuum and Richard would start turning blue.
Our garage is attached, but not climate controlled. A pressure difference builds up and makes it difficult to open the man door to the garage. The air rushing through creates a loud clanging of the garage doors. Can you talk about how to fix this?
Figure out why there's a pressure differential...are you leaving bathroom exhaust fans on?
@@cup_and_cone Nope. I do know whoever designed the hvac system for this house should find a new career. There are two units, one for the basement and main floor, and one for the main upstairs and a bonus room above the garage. There are however 3 controllers. The bonus room has its own controller, and there's a zone switch on the unit, so no problem right? Well, the ductwork that feeds that bonus room also drops off two vents into my bedroom on its way across the house. So if the a/c is on and both controls are set to the same temperature, my bedroom will be 3-5° below the rest of the main upstairs, because the bedroom gets air when the other upstairs needs it. So it's a balancing game between the two controllers to be able to regulate the temperature in the bedroom, and the rest of the upstairs is a few degrees off.
I have no hvac training at all, but I KNOW there has to be a better way.
Michael ... many new heating systems offer make-up air kits that feed directly into the burner area. (the cabinet or burner itself) This way you are not filling the whole room with outside air. (cold or hot) That may be what you need.
@@rupe53 It would seem the area of high pressure would be the climate controlled part though. The door opens in and is hard to pull back, as if air is pushing against it to hold it shut.
We're actually getting all new window on the house this week so I'm curious to see if it changes anything, though I'm not counting on it.
@@Studio23Media ... I'm not there but I can tell you the air pressure difference is not right. The original system was either not installed correctly or some changes have been made over the years. This presumes it's a forced air heating system. BTW, the changes don't have to be on the heating system itself. Changing the layout of a home, including moving doors can change the air flow. It could also be a duct that was shut off or disconnected up in an attic space. This is more common if the home has a central / common air return, say in a hallway ceiling.
And bees.
There is no way to vent from my kitchen. The condo board won't allow for a hole to be drilled in the exterior wall.
Right a demand letter . It's actually more important about managing c02 levels . More important to grease is to vent c02 and your range can produce alot ..It will mess with natural draft appliance. If you have a strong hood it could pull c02 when boiler or hot water heater is on
@@shahsmerdis I appreciate that, but I'm not sure you understand JUST how stubborn they are. Plus, id have to show all the work the previous owner did... ;p
@@shahsmerdis Most smaller/cheaper homes don't "exhaust" at all...they run the air through a shitty filter to pretend to catch some grease (which nobody ever cleans) and then recirculates it in the kitchen. Most normal homes are like this in the US, whether they are "allowed" to cut a hole or not.
It is however the most efficient option, no heating or cooling is lost.
Sounds expensive
Superinsulated homes quickly pay back in energy costs. My parents built a 2000 sq ft superinsulated house w passive solar and an air circulation system similar to show . All in, heating cooling averages
Not really . It's a filter and some duct work. The air does not need to be heated if it's right next to the exhaust hood. Not sure why they placed it so far away.
@@shahsmerdis if you don't need conditioned air, you can just open a window to let in outside air
😂😂😂
It was, as usual, perfectly splendid engineering, very neat and the rest of it. But is it technology looking for a home?
If the property is detached and plenty of access to outside walls in kitchen then surely a 6" OD (say) pipe from one outside wall and ditto from a wall at right angles, meeting in a plenum chamber beneath the range/stove, would work perfectly well?
Air from plenum chamber passing to the back of the stove so feed air (makeup air as you call it) doesn't come charging across kitchen.
No need to heat it either.
From a UK (well, mine then) perspective the depicted engineering seems to be an expensive way to achieve a result.
Can't see how this is supposed to be energy efficient???
Or, as mentioned earlier in the comments, simply a balanced flue/chimney to cooker hood, drawing out exhaust products, including CO, whilst allowing fresh air in for efficient combustion.
So Massachusetts law made me put a vent through my basement wall to provide air for my new water heater. Cold air in the basement all winter and cost me $700:!!!!!
Mass has always had a commie government. Move out and be free.
What type of water heater?. I put in new windows in basement and later new windows for the first floor. The second floor was a addition before I bought so had newer windows. I replaced oil heat with gas boiler and should have done some insulation in two rooms lower level. But what I did made a big difference in heat and comfort. No drafts. The original house 1945 and addition about 1990. Hot water baseboard heat I did not mention. Jersey Shore area.
I wonder if the make up air came in under the stove, then maybe it may not need to be conditioned.
I wouldn't want to stand in a 6 mph airstream conditioned at 55° while cooking.
They have those, sort of. The makeup air comes down from the hood to create a vortex right above the range. That seems like a better solution, since most of the cold air would mix with the steam/smoke/fumes and get sucked right back out.
@@bnasty267 ... that's basically how a new commercial kitchen is set up these days. Fresh air is ducted up right behind the stove / cook top / oven and very little room air is lost because the make-up air is right at the source of what needs to be exhausted. BTW, I can't tell you how many times I have been in an older restaurant during the winter only to have a draft come by each time the front door is opened. Basically the kitchen fan is sucking in fresh air right through the customer area. Problem goes away after 10 pm because the kitchen is closed and they finally shut the fans off.
My house was built 1990 and just has a regular forced air furnace... seems to be enough since sprayfoam didn't exist back then
Built my home in 1986, spray foamed!
@@kennyshepherd8311 that’s impressive. What colour is it ? We have regular pink insulation
my gut says that aint nowhere near 700 cubistic foot per minute. If the hole is 1 sq foot air would have to move 8 mph, 1/4 or half the diameter would push it to 32 mph, the hole in the floor seems half that? like sticking your head out the car window at 60 mph.
Do you really need that for little time you have on your exhaust fan?
If you create low pressure in your home, it can potentially prevent the combustion gases from your furnace, water heater, fireplace, etc from going out the chimney. It could cause raised CO levels in the home.
(Opening a window seems like a more efficient way to accomplish this, except during bad weather. But the make-up air system can be triggered automatically, making it more fool-proof)
“We don’t want to open the window because you already paid to heat the air.”
“Here is a thing that heats the air to ventilate the room.”
You realize that’s totally pointless? It’s not cheaper to heat air that doesn’t come through a window.
show the fan tessssssssssssssst wheechair larry
No more solar pannel commercials!!
So you're still bringing in outside air, but now you're heating it first.....and you're heating it with the most expensive way to produce heat (electricity).
It should not be that big a heater, maybe like a portable heater, and it just keeps the air from being brutally cold, it's not hot. As an aside, the nursing home where I worked had a huge system for preheating and precooling the air coming in. near the front of the building was a huge grille on the ground where a lot of care flew in. Then there were coils that heated or cooled in the fresh air depending on winter or summer. It had to be like this, there were many exhausts on each bathroom and a huge one in the kitchen and if the air wasn't changed, the place would have really, really stunk!
While a make-up air system might make sense for the house in the video, it's just a huge scam for existing old houses and should never have been added to the code.
shell game with inspector 4oo cfm ( no makeup required 400 or less ) with 8" ductwork and as he drives away install your 650. FYI that makeup air system is about 5K installed !
Update on my kitchen remodel: my inspector let me use this $65 part to pass for my 650 cfm hood: Panasonic FV-GKF32S1 Passive Inlet Vent
@@andotech From the Panasonic web site, this only allows a little air flow and probably would not meet code in other areas. From Panasonic: PASSIVE INLET VENT FOR MAKE-UP AIR
FV-GKF32S1 Passive Inlet
Inlet vent shall be through-the-wall mount type with body made of durable ABS and PP resin. Indoor unit shall have a durable open/close lever and be equipped with a washable pollen filter and sound abatement foam pad. Unit shall include a two-position adjustable damper for 12 or 18CFM air delivery. Inlet shall include 12 inches of through-the-wall sleeve that can be cut to the appropriate length. Inlet shall include outside hood with bug screen.
I only have electric appliances and heat so no carbon monoxide to worry about being pulled into the home. These sophisticated make up air systems seem like complete overkill for an older home with a typical 4 burner electric stove.
well im *first*
*PEOPLE* : *NO ONE CARES*
This is a horribly misleading video. Most states don’t require a hood exhaust for a kitchen, and over 80% of the population live without them
This doesn't make any sense. The wind just stopped blowing. It have nothing to do with anything else.