How Recoil Affects Handgun Accuracy
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- čas přidán 29. 06. 2024
- Does recoil cause the muzzle to rise while the bullet is still in the barrel, or is the bullet long gone by then? Could a loose grip cause bullets to impact higher on the target? We used a high speed camera to help figure out what's really going on in the eyeblink after you pull the trigger.
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I think we all know that the teacup grip is a no-no with a modern semi, but the sandbag support on the revolver got me thinking that that there may have been something to it with a revolver before we figured out modern gripping styles.
Would be interesting to see a Chiappa in the recoil cycle with the low mounted barrel and how much it actually changes the recoil 'cycle' from a 'normal' revolver.
Fun vid for sure.
This principle was definitely known and understood well before it was ever observed on high speed video, so I agree that it's certainly possible the teacup grip was adopted in an effort to counteract POI shift from muzzle rise. Probably a misguided effort, however.
🍝🦆
I like these type of analyses. As a geologist and engineer I appreciate you doing these kind of studies.
Recoil don't affect Mansfield.
The laws of physics yield before his rigid adherence to blind tradition.
That’s right! 😂
He doesn’t have soft, squishy tissue. When he shoots a pistol, it’s the steel on the gun that gives.
@@LuckyGunner Fnet=MA. Can't escape it.
@@user60521123 I would doubt that it's the cylinder blow out since it's not really vectored down, but radially. rather, it's likely the "equal and opposite reaction"/physics of the detonation and slug being pushed down the barrel.
Thinking about it in a force vector diagram - The explosion wants to go out in every direction, but the cylinder and barrel force it to act linearly along with the slugs motion and friction acting on the barrel.
You would also measure some rotational force from the rifling as well, but it's somewhat negligible compared to the linear force along the x axis.
Manny is unimpressed by physics.
For future high-speed videos: to help measure movement in the frame, use a background board with 1-inch squares marked on it. That way, you can compare movement between frames and get a pretty precise idea of how much distance the gun has moved.
What I was going to say. Tganks.
Centimeters would probably be more useful here with how small the movement is
Maybe related, or maybe not... I didn't learn how to effectively double-tap until a shooting acquaintance taught me how to use that muzzle rise instead of fighting it. Like everyone, I was taught the "death grip" to try and fight muzzle rise. He showed me how to relax my grip and fire single shots until I found the correct tension where the the sights fell back on target. Once you have that down, you just begin hitting the trigger twice as fast as you can and you'll land both shots within a palm sized group. When I used the proper "death grip" as taught by my military instructors the muzzle rise transferred back to my forearms and the second tap would always be high, or just wild. When you relax the tension in your hands the recoil (and muzzle rise) stops at your wrists. It takes some experimentation with single shots to find that correct tension, but once you have it and repeat it enough becomes muscle memory and very easy.
Love the conclusion, "shooting is fun and so are high-speed cameras!"
But I have noticed that subsonic 147 grain 9mm ammo (900-925 fps) does consistently impact higher than 115 grain (1100 fps) in my Glock 19... I thought I was going crazy for a bit, then found a gun forum where someone suggested the same theory that you're testing here. Thanks for the video!
For revolvers you can use the principal of conservation of angular momentum to understand muzzle climb. The short version of this is that the rise depends only on the mass of the bullet and not the power of the cartridge. The muzzle rises faster when shooting a full power .357 compared to a standard .38 but if the bullet weight is the same, say 158 grains, then the rise is the same. If you own a wheel gun you may actually notice that the sights point a little low because revolver makers understand this and compensate for muzzle rise when fixing the zero. It would be interesting to compare various bullet weights to see how much they affect muzzle climb and I would anticipate that lighter bullets will tend to shoot a little low compared to heavier ones.
You don't see observable muzzle climb on auto loaders because the spring is barely compressed during the time that the bullet is in the barrel. Very little force is exerted on the frame so the slide effectively moves freely. The reverse linear motion of the slide cancels out the angular momentum of the bullet moving forward. As the spring compresses more you may start seeing some rise but most of it happens when the slide impacts the back of the frame transferring much of the angular momentum from the slide to the frame. Needless to say I'm happy my physics degree is finally useful (ish ;-) ).
DAMN, That was a GREAT EXPLANATION.
YES, your Physics Degree was very useful, T.Y. Andrew.
I wouldn't have said it in dept as you did but I'm just a Machinist, LOL.
@@Kyle-sr6jm So what id he say wrong ? T.Y. Kyle.
It occurred to me that the first bit of muzzle climb on the Sig is probably due to the barrel hitting the stop in the frame, and that transfer of energy back into the hands. That's probably exactly why they feel less "snappy": two smaller instances of recoil instead of one big one.
@@dewayner5388 Yes, that's my impression too. I think I commented as such on another one of these videos which compared a blowback to a locked system.
5:18 I tested this in a Ransom Rest and included the results in my first book, Beyond Expert. Shooting ten-round strings from an M9 at 25 yards, the first five shots were fired holding down the unit (the return to battery ledge on the right side) and the second five I allowed the Ransom Rest to recoil up as designed. This resulted in two distinct group centers about two inches apart.
The vast majority of POI change is due to shooter error, especially by unintentional movement due to anticipation (Pre-Ignition Push/flinch), however, how you hold the firearm during recoil does have an effect.
Excellent video with good information. An easy way to see how different revolvers act is to take one with good sights that is perfectly sighted in, now put a laser bore sighter in the barrel and compare the POA vs POI, the difference is very apparent it appears it should shoot low. I discovered this when making custom revolver sights and using a laser to get the sights close in the shop before taking it to the range for live fire. With autos and other firearms the laser could get very close but the revolver requires compensation for that movement shown in the video. Another interesting thing while testing match ammo in accurized revolvers is that I always got better groups with wooden grips than rubber grips, it probably wouldn't show up using a normal revolver and ammo at 25 yds but at 50 yds where I did my testing it did for me. Not saying rubber grips make your revolver shoot bad they are great for absorbing recoil it's just another variable in the mix.
I think part of the reason that the revolvers are showing more muzzle rise vs the semi auto pistols has to do with how much higher the bore is above where your thumb come across the backstrap of the pistol. The recoil therefore has a longer moment arm (or is it lever arm?) above the hinge point of your wrist in comparison to a semi auto. As soon as there is ignition of the cartridge and the bullet begins its movement forward out of the casing, there is an equal and opposite force causing the entire revolver to move backwards because there is no give in the chamber, whereas with the semi autos, that backwards force is initially getting absorbed by the slide (with minimal resistance of the slide spring) moving straight backwards until it reaches its limit of rearward movement, and only then does the rearward force act on the moment arm to the hinge point of your wrist, thus resulting in a delayed and less significant muzzle rise.
I'm liking your thinking
I doubt. In semi-automatics the action moves back while the bullet is in the barrel. There is no reason why the barrel would rise beyond friction and the spring which are minuscule. On a revolver the only thing that can move back is the actual weapon. Since the weapon weighs about 100 times the bullet the movement is also 1/100 i.e. about one millimeter. I find it surprising that it raises even that much on a revolver considering the flesh has easily that much give in.
Thanks for this informative video, Chris. Revolver sights slightly point the revolver's muzzle DOWN to compensate, whereas rifle sights generally point the muzzle slightly UP--and that's with sight line above the bore line. Revolvers have been around almost two hundred years. The Colt Dragoon was supposed to have its sights regulated for 100 yards and while less powerful than the military smoothbore musket of the day the Dragoon's rifled barrel gave the revolver comparable accuracy even without a shoulder stock and four points of contact--muskets usually lacked a back sight. Point--guns are complicated, but shooting doesn't have to be.
"A man's got to know his limitations." (Harry Callahan in Magnum Force, 1973).
Target shooters at the 25- and 50-yard lines customize grips so that they get the same grip each time. Light target triggers reduce the amount of trigger-squeeze disturbance. Using very consistent ammunition each time makes the revolver more precise. Even the positions used will affect the zero--as Chris demonstrated, the difference in point of impact using more sandbags to stabilize the revolver was significant for small game or target match shooting at 25 yards. Chris warned us! After sighting in from sandbags, fire without sandbags to validate and verify.
Chris mentions "squishy bits" but the entire pistol is "squishy" given the forces involved. Semiautomatic pistol slides move back and forth, and sometimes the barrel flops around. Revolver pundits used to think that this made semiautomatic pistols less accurate than revolvers. It's complicated--but for the vast majority of pistol shooters, this question of revolver versus semiautomatic accuracy is academic.
Pistol shooting is easy--,ake sure the pistol is loaded, stay close to a large target, point the pistol at the target (sights help with precision pointing), and trip the trigger without disturbing that precision pointing. Hole in target = SUCCESS.
Gripping the gun the same every time is why everybody should have custom made Herrett's grips or stocks made for you for your gun. Hands down the best mod you can make.
I noticed this many years ago with revolvers. Thanks for confirming my hypothesis explaining the reason for it, and thanks for explaining why it is less pronounced (or nonexistent) in semi-auto pistols. It all makes perfect sense with the high speed video.
Another great educational video in the books. I truly appreciate your empirical approach to these topics Chris!
One of the best analysis I've seen in a long time. Thank you. Very interesting and informative.
This is one of the most informative videos I've seen on recoil ever. Thanks Lucky Gunner
Interesting as usual Chris! Thank you for the educational entertainment this afternoon!
As a handgun hunter, this is a very interesting test. I remember reading an article from the 60’s talking about this phenomenon (with a different explanation) and hadn’t thought much about it until now. I’ll definitely nbe double checking this season.
Everyone knows you don't feel recoil in anything smaller than a .44mag just ask Manny Mannsfield.
I'll never forget being in a shop where a guy was looking a 10mm Glock vs a 44 magnum Revolver and the clerk said, "yeah, 44 is nice, but when a 500 lb bear is charging you, all that power doesn't matter if you can only get off one shot due to recoil before the bear is on top of you"
Smart clerk
You will get off 2-3 shots with the 10mm for every 1 with the 44
8 rounds of .357 that you can get on target in 3-5 seconds will always be more effective than 6 rounds of .44 that takes you 6-9 seconds to fire.
What if you get 1 shot of 500 S&W Magnum for the 500 lb bear.
@@jem_lucinamain3777 the 500 SW weighs so much just take a shorty 12 gauge at that point
A very good presentation and high production quality. I will forward this along.
What a beautiful, well thought out video! Great experiment. Well done Matt! Looks like fun!! I wish I could make money having fun like this everyday!
When I started handloading in the mid 1970’s, I determined that barrel time was the biggest factor in determining elevation at 50 feet (no time for trajectory to have much effect) when shooting a wide variety of loads from my 8-3/8” Model 27-2. A very light, fast bullet got out of the gun before it rose much, and struck low, but a slow, heavy bullet took its time in the barrel, and hit high. Strangely, my 6-12/“ .357 Blackhawk would place most everything within a 3 inch circle at 50 feet.
Fascinating results! Also looking forward to that 80X review!
Clear, concise and entertaining. Thank you!
As usual, some of the best technical firearm info on the tube
Another great video, Chris!
Thank you for your work on this.
I love this kind of info!
Thank you Chris. Very interesting video!
I learned something and enjoyed it!
Really interesting videos on recoil…. Thank you for the great content!
absolutely love your videos they have taught me so much on how to handle my shotguns and many other things
Another great video, Chris.
I have a 3" S&W Model 24. Those heavy slow bullets really push the gun around. The sights definitely take into account the muzzle rise at the shot. You can just look at it from the side and see that the front sight is noticeably taller than the rear.
Fnet=MA. Can't get away from it.
People tend to forget there is more to that than just that speed and acceleration of the round. Can't get wrapped around the axle on fps.
Also cool they make the front sight intentionally taller to compensate versus the normal "hold the gun tighter wuss" coaching as the vid really shows even an iron grip can't totally remove the physics from doing it's thing.
I always wondered about this. Very interesting results.
Thank you for all the work you do! Wish I lived in a free
state I would buy ammo from you all.
Something I've noticed with my ruger lightweight commander 1911 (45acp) is that if give it a loose, one handed grip it will shoot as much as 2 feet high and to the right at 40 yards, following the same path it recoils, but if i hold with a firm grip it shoots perfectly. Just an anecdote
I enjoy your evidence-based approach to shooting sports. Always interesting and entertaining. Thanks
I have extensive experience shooting my S&W 500 Magnum 3.5" PC revolver from a distance of 25 yards.
My shooting was done with two hands, standing unsupported, using "Double Action ".
If I did not hold the grip high up on the back strap and with a super tight grip while aiming, the recoil would throw my shots off and my 5 shot group would be around 5"-6".
When I held super tight and concentrated with a total disregard for the impending violent recoil, than all my shots would result in groups under 2"!
The "tighter the grip, the tighter the group"!!
Very cool video love the slow mo!
Very interesting analysis. The scientist in me loves a good hypothesis and result, even if it’s not that relevant at typical handgun self defense distances.
I read about “transit bore axis” or something like that when discussing heavy magnum revolvers. It made sense when I read it. And, they tested it as well. Thanks for the video
Well thought out n very interesting tests. Thanks
No more wondering about this aspect of handgun shooting. Thanks, Chris. 👍
I have noticed over the years that changes in bullet weight in particular and somewhat less for velocity seem to effect POI much more in revolvers than autos. I speculated it was mainly a greater effect of the higher revolver bore axis on the rotational force in your my hand but this is the first time I've seen high speed camera footage to verify if this is true or not. Seems that is a partial answer but the rearward slide movement in autos before the rotational movement occurs was not something I expected would be such a significant factor. Unique and informative video!
very interesting concept, well researched and well presented; grateful
Fun topic! As mentioned before I would love to see this examined with some rifles. Maybe common AR and a lever action. Great job on this one!
That'd be great but for some reason lucky gunner always picks the most boring and obscure guns for his videos. Dude would probably do a review on .22 rifles or 9mm carbines only.
Thanks for all the work (and expense) putting this together. I've found that in almost every gun - semi-auto and revolver - heavier bullets impact at least a little higher at my usual sighting distances of 15 and 25 yards when the heavier bullet is traveling slower than a lighter bullet. Roughly calculated, a 0.03" muzzle rise translates to about 2" at 15 yards (8" sight radius).
Thank you! Good job!
Thanks for this interesting analysis.
Something else I noticed here Chris, and often the subject of vigorous debate, is group size from the two different positions (butt supported vs unsupported). Groups fired appear smaller from the supported position (which might tell us more about the accuracy potential for a given load/gun combo - important for hunting/defensive applications), BUT, you would still need to zero the firearm with the accuracy load from an unsupported position to replicate your off-hand shooting. Food for thought.
Pretty cool, when I learned about this it was regarding revolver stanced sights compared to semiautos. All explained here
In general I like to see conclusions supported with data or some kind of objective measure that minimizes bias. Congratulations for generating some interesting datasets that lead to some interesting questions if not hard and fast yes/no answers.
Well done!
Every thing that the old men taught me when I was 15. Thanks for educating a newer generation.
The short answer is YES! Years ago shooting a S&W Mod 29 44 mag I found that 44 special reloads would impact the target (25 yards) over an inch higher than a hot 44 mag round. Only reasonable explaination is the slower bullet gave the gun more time to rise.
Very well done video.
Great info!👍
How about one on recovering your red dot with recoil?
Thanks for all the time you spend on these videos...we all know how busy life can be.
Great information.
Fascinating study!
And the bullet will spend a longer time in the barrel the longer the barrel.
This is very interesting. I think this explains the reason why cap and ball revolvers shoot so high from off-hand, unsupported. Long barrels with slow moving projectiles. I've always heard that it was the sight settings from factory. However, all the percussion gun experts, like Mike Bellevue and Blackie Thomas, still pattern high after sight mods. Never considered this aspect of the physics.
Good job Chris!
I've heard along time ago that this is a factor for revolvers with longer barrels, never thought about it much for pistols. The highspeed footage was enlightening, and now I'm curious about the 10" desert eagle
I've always been aware of this about revolvers, it's so interesting to see it in the flesh. It's also important to note there are several different semiauto actions to view, but that manufacturers have taken such things into concideration. Be it tilting, rotating, fixed, gas operated, or many of the odd ones I might have missed there is a lot of math that goes into these pistols and rise is one of those factors.
the lesson here: support hand grip is more important than your booger hook, understatedly.
Neat vid! And ya, just put my bulk order in today.
I smell a colander with The Slow-Mo Guys or Smarter Everyday. They are the people I would be taking to first about ultra slow motion footage and measurable data.
Really, really excellent
Sounds like it is time for a collaboration video with the fellas from Ballistic High Speed.
Recoil does start before the bullet exists. It does, in fact, start the instant that the bullet starts to move. That's simple physics. I did enjoy your analysis of how much it moves.
???? The video is titled “how recoil effects hand gun accuracy” obviously every guy ever has recoil, you aren’t correcting anything
@@VBCVeryBigChannel And the price of tea in China keeps going up!!!!
It would be cool to also see this with the PX4 rotating barrel
Cool! Thank you
I enjoy these even tho i often know the topic already. They do a more detailed analysis even tho ive done my own testing w loose grip vs tight & all.
I must say sometimes i get odd looks at the range.
Consistent technique, ammo, and aim.
The Cheetah's muzzle flip trajectory is interesting: it doesnt begin to tilt until the slide is at the end of its retreat. I wonder if this has to do with the fact that the barrel isn't tilting or dropping into the frame.
Lucky Gunner Nerapalooza is my favourite time of, well, any time.
“Firmly grasp it in your hand” - Patrick Star
Awesome topic! When you introduce this info into the topic of zeroing pistols with red dots, I think people can really benefit. I have found that my group sizes shrink considerably with a red dot sight on a handgun. I've seen a lot of discussion about techniques for zeroing, for example, immobalizing the gun in a ransom rest vs shooting unsupported the way you would normally shoot the pistol. After watching this, it seems at least with some guns, you should at least try to verify your zero with your regular shooting grip, and see if there is a noticable POI shift, and that it may not be "the loose nut behind the trigger"
The way I zeroed mine was wresting my wrists/forearms on something. The gun still interacts the same way with your hands, but there's a lot less wobble as you got something to steady your arms on
@@DWalter.27 that's what I chose to do also I found it difficult for some reason to pull the trigger correctly with the gun rested at the grip and the dust covet. Not sure why, it just felt really awkward.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, shows why we zero our firearms as we intend to use them rather than in some other grip/position/method.
+100
Yeah, any experienced revolver shooter knows that, generally, a heavier, slower bullet will print higher than a faster, lighter bullet, so it's important to know how each different load will print from your gun.
Also, just look at the sights on a revolver. You'll see right away, and you can see it in your video here, that the front sight is higher than the rear. That "negative elevation" needs to be there because the gun rotates upward during launch.
And I shared this to the fan group for the owner of the range. I didn't realize until he commented, lol. How was Yard Moose Mountain?
Interesting results. I for one am a bit surprised by the revolver at longer distance.
This makes me rethink zeroing my mrds on handguns on a supported bag. I think i may only rest my elbows next time and compare those results with shooting off hand.
Actually with the Browning style locking the barrel starts to raise before the gun itself by virtue of unlocking. However it still appears to be well after the bullet left the muzzle.
I have heard never rest the grip , best is just the frame , some can take the barrel , some can't . A rock will mar your gun & split your grip .
1:49 at youtube's 0.25 speed is pretty awesome. cool video.
Chris, in my personal experience: with a non-death grip my 340PD with 357 magnums will shoot several inches higher at 7 yards, compared to the impact point when I have a death grip on it. Death gripped 357 hits the same place as my 38 wadcutter hand loads do, which is properly at the top of sights. (That's landing all shots inside a 2" circle too.) I'm not sure how that fits into the testing, but just my experience.
For anyone wondering, I use 357 for occasional range fun, but I carry 38. While you absolutely can shoot many 357 in one session (I did 75 when I first got it and was sad when I had to stop because I ran out of ammo lol), it will bruise your hands for days and you gotta have the mental will to not develop a flinch too. 357 out of a 340PD is brutal, but it does make for a fun time as you pass it around letting your friends all try it... once
Regarding muzzle movement in revolvers, that's something you would correct by adjusting your sights, you should have added this to your explanation.
NICE VIDEO
Very interesting!
One of my longtime doubts!
I frequently shoot out to 100 yards with semi autos for fun and I've definitely noticed vertical poi shifts from different ammos even with the same bullet weight. Because i don't notice horizontal differences, i assumed that the effect was caused by different velocities or pressure curves causing different bullet exit times within the recoil impulse. Your high-speed seems to disprove my theory however.
With high recoil rifles, how tight you hold the rifle to your shoulder will definitely affect the vertical poi which leads me to believe that the recoil is moving the barrel before the bullet exits. Or maybe there's another variable that I'm not considering.
I love my S&W Model 29, but these tests really have me thinking about doing more shooting with my autos. Rise appears to be less of an issue with them than revolvers, though I think with enough familiarity, the shooter should know where to aim their gun to get closest to the mark, with or without rise.
If you don’t mind, I would like to review the Cheetah next. Please send it to me when you’re finished.
John Browning Designed the Tilt Barrel , so it rises and tilts down to the receiver and Magazine to better allows the next round
to slide into the chamber .
Browning did design the tilting barrel mechanism, but the reason was a bit different than you're suggesting. This video might help explain it: czcams.com/video/qK6sNYz2aQg/video.html
Very informative, thanks so much .
Fun.
Now do another video with 12 gauge buckshot. I learned to aim about 10 inches low starting at 25 yards to get CM hits during quals. Some of the newer special purpose defense and tactical rounds keep a pattern half the size of standard buck and will tell on your marksmanship. (Which in 12 ga. is usually recoil sensitivity.
Lots of mass coming down that 18 inch pipe so I always guessed it was the action/reaction law and to a lesser degree some rearward thrust from air being forced out ahead of the shot.
But I'm no physicist.
A way interesting video. Dunno how scientific exactly - but it sure shows interesting stuff for everyone interested.
Way nice!
This should have been a colab with the SlowMo Guys
Definitely switching to the teacup grip
Good, thx
Fascinating science! Awesome videography, and comparison between semi-autos and revolvers, and discussion!
If two people are aiming their 12ga shotguns perfectly, and one person is 220lb and the other is 135, will the point of impact be higher for the smaller person?
Is there a gauge/load/brace where accuracy is unaffected for smaller people? If accuracy is even affected by body weight? 3:35
Not sure if body weight would come into play that early in the recoil process. The way the person was holding the gun could potentially be a factor. Like whether the butt was firmly braced against the shoulder. Even then, the butt pad is going to have some give before the payload exits the barrel. Using the push-pull technique might make a difference. I might try that with the high speed camera at some point. Anything with rifles would require a nicer camera with a higher framerate, but we could probably catch buckshot in flight without a problem. My guess is that at the ranges we typically employ shotguns, any point of impact shift will not be noticeable.
Its all about the direction of the recoil
I think you would get better results with some of the heavier handgun calibers. The difference is pronounced between heavy bullets and light bullets in the 44 magnum and 454 Casull revolvers. Heavy bullets are slower, stay in the barrell longer, and always shoot higher at intermediate ranges due to the muzzle rise.