WHY Couldn’t they CLIMB?! | Emirates flight 521
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- čas přidán 7. 06. 2024
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On the 3rd of August 2016, the #flight crew of an #Emirates Boeing 777-300 performed a go-around, when their #landing on runway 12L in #Dubai went wrong. But instead of accelerating and #climbing out normally, the #aircraft fell back down on the runway. How did this happen?
Please note that this video was made, based on the public final report and Emirates Airlines have not been involved or approved this video. For all sources see source list below.
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Below you will find the links to videos and sources used in this episode. Enjoy checking them out!
Sources
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Final Report:
reports.aviation-safety.net/2...
Aircraft Used: 777-300 from Captain Sim
captainsim.net/products/m777/...
Emirates Video: Emirates Airlines
• Women pilots fly Emira...
Emirates Sim Video: Emirates Airlines
• Dreams Soar Simulator ...
CHAPTERS
-----------------------------------------------------
00:00 - Start
00:22 - A flight in progress
03:08 - Windshear escape
04:49 - Go-around and missed approach
07:30 - Thermals
11:13 - Final approach
12:50 - Reducing tailwind
15:05 - Correct landing procedure
16:37 - Floating
19:42 - Go-around!
23:31 - Not enough lift
26:42 - A tragic twist of fate
27:44 - Investigation insights - Zábava
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Ok
I am totally shocked that boeing had no clear audio and visual warning (like a fat red frame around the main display or so) if you press toga but autotrottle doesn't come with, that this is highlighted. That is sooooo not understandable, that is criminal to not highlight this information.
Well, without watching your video yet. If I wasn't climbing immediately after rotation, my first instinct without even thinking about it would be to check the flaps...
But in this case, I don't blame the pilots at all. It was an unfortunate result of automation doing exactly what it was programmed to do...
BOAC 911, March 1966 crash! Must Do Video content!!!
why aren't we developing a system to prevent critical information going unnoticed? A small screen in the cabin which is set to destination airport, showing all the recent updates like an instagram feed, no matter which radio channel you are using, what you are hearing or not. Each tower has its own channel, where they constantly post stuff like
Lufthansa flight bla bla.. aircraft type bla bla.. go around due bla blaa..
Emirates flight bla bla... aircraft type bla bla.. landed, experienced heavy tirbulance
Qatar Airlines flight bla bla.. aircraft type bla bla.. landed... bla bla..
Pilots can use the screen to monitor what is going on at the airport no matter if they are on the other channel or different people talk over eachother and something goes unnoticed. This whole thing can be done without any complicated engineering application. You got internet or some other connection both on the plane and in the tower right? All you need is few cable connections, a small monitor in the cabin, a software update or an extra computer for the tower where they can automatically or manually enter the recent activity, and a server somewhere to connect it all globally. I swear with help from a few friends, i can fix this dumb problem in a short time. On the other hand the entire industry is acting like there aren't many simple solutions to such simple problems. The cost of such a system would be laughable even if a single airline was paying for the entire thing for every tower and plane, alone. I don't even know how many times we heard "they didn't hear it" in your videos, and i dont know how many of them ended with tragedy. I am not sure if the industry is full of really intelligent people or just a random bunch who just convince themselves that they are intelligent. People follow eachother's every move on social media, we all know who was where, what they ate, what they did.. and all that crap. You can't follow what is going on at the airport where you will attempt a landing soon. Sorry for the language but as a passenger, hearing such stuff is just pissing me off.
The name of the firefighter who gave his life to save the others was Jassim Al Bloushi. May he rest in peace. _/\_
Yes, indeed.
Amen
I share those sentiments.
@@salemabdulalhassam3726 you would if he gave his life to save you or one of your family and friends (assuming you have any friends)..... I have seen a lot of rubbish in comments on CZcams and other places but never something so insensitive. You should be absolutely ashamed of yourself and you need to go away and think about what you have said and what sort of a heart you have.....
@@garyhaber6957 lol get lost. Greetings from Dubai
7 emergency exits out of 10 cannot be used and the cabin crew managed to save EVERYONE on board?! This is more than incredible! Amazing job.
Indeed.
Not to mention dealing with a bunch of annoying Indian people grabbing their hand luggage .
Everyone*
If I remember correctly, a firefighter died though 😔
Even more incredible as the remaining 3 exits were all in the rear of the aircraft.
Sadness for the firefighter who lost his life trying to save the lives of the people on the plane, and for the family he left behind. Even when it is "only one" there is heartbreak and sorrow. Sincere condolences to his loved ones. May he rest in peace.
Indeed 💕💕😔
@@MentourPilot Much appreciation for your channel and all your incites and comments. You are a pilot any passenger would feel glad to have in the cockpit.
Yessir. A really important thing to remember. This firefighter must be on history honor roll of hero. His courage, dedication and sacrifice touches our hearts. As you importantly point out even one is very sad. Thanks for reminding us!
I dont know what's worse: being the only one who died or being the only one who survived
@@uebankarasov Personally, I would prefer being the only one who died. Especially if I was rescuing others. I could rest peacefully knowing that I had done my job and done it well. Contrasted with if I was the only one who survived, the survivor's guilt probably wouldn't let me live a peaceful life.
As bizarre as this may sound, I was one of the crew members on that flight, seated at L2 (second door on the left hand side). Even after 7 years I still remember the voice of the captain giving the command to evacuate!
Btw, the video is very well done! Good job!
If this is true I commend you and the rest of the crew on the evacuation. I've heard people give crew members crap for it being a "just a server job" not realising how much more work and training it is. It must have been such a stressful experience, especially with so many of the passengers trying to bring their luggage and causing blockages while only a few exits worked! I hope you recovered quickly from any injuries and still enjoy flying
@@rustledjimmz8967 I appreciate it! I quit flying two years ago, but yeah it was a very stressful situation, even tho the whole training is very intense, when it happens in real life you have to count on your gut on the decision making. Flight attendants are a little bit of everything: psychologist, nanny, nurse, waiter… so proud of all of them!
@@_natalycamillo - Well, congratulations to you on losing your "dream job" with Emirates. Someone died in there, so they probably had to blame all the crew and just get rid of them asap. That company is a disgrace to all the aviation community. You are also a disgrace, because you actually were an Emirates slave. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Is he still flying?
@@under90secondsI honestly don’t know!
Reading someone else’s comment, it dawned on me how the difference in your tone of voice compared to TV series’s narrators makes such a huge difference. You are calm and soothing, educating people and helping to calm people’s nerves. The TV shows use suspense to get you to stay through the next commercial break, thereby raising the anxiety level of already nervous fliers. Well done! Yet one more reason I love this channel.
That’s why TV is dying and safe, educational streaming platforms are thriving. We vote with our subs, not biased Nielsen ratings.
Which is one of the readons I don't watch tv anymore. For decades.
"The TV shows use suspense to get you to stay through the next commercial break, ", with 20 minutes of commercials in the last 30 minutes of the show. I've learned to be not hooked in by the first 20 minutes add-free.
@@stephenhosking7384 And after every commercial break they repeat almost 2 minutes of show in case your tiny short attention span can't remember what happened, and padding a 30 minute show into 40 minutes plus 20 minutes of commercials. Even Pluto TV, which has the most commercials of any service, has less commercials than cable or airwave TV.
Who are those "already nervous fliers"? :D
Coming from a software development perspective I find it interesting that there is no feedback to the users (in this case the pilots) when they press a button that is inhibited. Especially such a critical button. Could be a callout like "inhibited" or a buzzer sound or whatever. I think such a feature could have gotten the pilots attention and prevented the accident from happening. At least it would insert another slice into the Swiss cheese.
That’s was actually similar to the feedback of the final report as well.
I strongly agree with you. I was going to write about the same in a comment but you ended up writing it yourself
As someone who works in quality assurance, I agree. That there wasn't sensory feedback about the TO/GA switch being inhibited was very significant, and if I'd encountered something like that in testing a system like this, I'd have marked it as a potentially critical failure, or at least a very significant failure. Glad to hear that this was addressed in the final report.
That would make sense, as even my bog standard, non-critical home computer bleeps or chirps when I click a button that doesn't then activate.
What an excellent idea. Usually the levers move when the button is pushed. Personally, on aircraft equipped with autothrottle, I'm already pushing the levers as I press the buttons. But I note this captain had flown almost his entire career with this company, who mandated 100% autothrottle use. He was therefore probably 100% expecting the levers to do their thing. Some kind of haptic or aural feedback would be very useful if people insist on flying aeroplanes lime this.
A few years ago I watched a video titled "Who Destroyed Three Mile Island?" and it really changed my perspective on how we blame people for accidents. In this Emirates accident, like many others, it is very easy to just blame it on pilot error, but that does nothing. People will always make mistakes. It's much more important to determine why they made that mistake to prevent it in the future.
Fortunately the ethos in aviation (the the level in which I fly - UK GA - as I document on my channel 😉) is to not 'blame' but to 'learn'. Indeed, if we never learn from an incident, we can never improve systems to negate similar scenarios in the future, thus saving many more lives. Alone, this is why aviation is almost the safest way to travel today.
Like the Japanese rail disaster where the driver was going too quick. It was actually attributed to the toxic culture of being on time and being punished if you were behind.
Exactly, i started working for a company that is very heavy on blaming and sacking people for their mistakes, below management. So Ive tried teaching them how there is a root cause for errors and mistakes, but idiots. We cant change the world and we cant fix stupid, unfortunetly stupid exists in all levels of business from aviation to goverment.
P lell I’ll pp😊😊long 😊 ppp
😊 plplp I’m pll I’ll l
I'm always so impressed by flight/cabin crew. They all work so hard to get it right. And when things can go so wrong in a just a few seconds, the margin for error is really a knife edge.
It is!
I think you'd have to have been there to know how the evacuation went.
Elizabeth….that is so true. Training to influence muscle memory and mental state responses to a potential situation changes from seconds to unknown…hopefully we did the right response choice, and there was time for mechanical performance to take effect. This was rather routine until the shear started the sequence. I guess the thing to take away from this is, confirmation of performance of inputs made, despite the automation. As a helicopter guy, I just learned something about the landing system on this aircraft, that normally given enough altitude could have made it a good day…maybe an (audio) alert could be added…perception dictates what we do, and then there is what is expected from the machine, and sometimes it doesn’t match up. I feel for the crew here, but this accident will help others. 🧐🙏🏼
I wonder what would have happened if they were flying with other aircrafts instead ? and how "fair" it is to statistically considered it as a B777 aircraft accident..
Isnt that weird though? That commercial airplanes developed from trillions of dollars are just barely clearing a knifes edge margin of error?
When you have a dozen buttons to press in a short period of time, and your training has given you the impression that these buttons always work, I really don't think it's the pilots fault at all here when one of the buttons doesn't work as expected. Even if they perhaps could have verified it.
Heroic effort by the captain and crew member combing through a smoke filled cabin looking for passengers left behind.
They had one button to push, and two power levers. They only did the first one. Airplanes will not fly uphill at idle thrust. That's pretty basic. You want to go around? You need to add thrust. These planes have been successfully flying Go-Arounds for almost 40 years. Why did THIS crash happen? Because they neglected to add power.
I think that the captain was deficient in assuming that the autothrottle would always work. Watch enough Mentour Pilot videos and you realise that many of the systems have various points at which they are inhibited and many reasons why they might fail. The operation of any button, but especially a critical one such as the TOGA buttons on the throttles, needs to be verified by someone.
@@tlangdon12 Mentour did a whole section of the video on how it was entirely plausible for pilots with their training to not know about the inhibition. And plane systems are so complex that you cannot safely assume that a system that reacts a certain way in one situation will also react that way in other situations.
@lbowsk yeah you go ahead and make a video and we will see how wrong you are lmao
@@lbowsk: Yes they failed, it’s that simple.
Okay, if I understood this right, the flight crew had just a few seconds to realize that the TOGA buttons didn't work the way they had been taught in training. They followed company procedure, letting the computers help with flying, and realized fairly quickly that this wasn't working as expected, and started flying manually instead. But those seconds lost meant that it was too late. So sad, especially about that firefighter who lost his life.
What I wonder is, what happens to flight crew after an incident like this? I'd hope they receive the extra training and go back to flying because it seems like they are very good at their job, I highlight the start of the video where their great CRM is highlight, just the training they received didn't account for this situation.
I just hope an incident like this doesn't lose someone their job, I don't know this industry well so I don't know the answer.
@@rustledjimmz8967no they will not loose there job I'm Cabin Crew in the USA lol
Yeah, this TOGA button behaviour is quite weird to have. An inconsistency like that can very easily lead to a situation like this where you expect an action to have a certain outcome (pressing the TOGA button->engines go to full thrust), because in all training zou ever did that's what happens.
@@rustledjimmz8967the captain was a UAE national so of course he didn’t get fired. The crew on Emirates 407 in 2009 wasn’t as lucky and got fired.
@@kukuc96 I agree. I don’t understand why you would the plane’s computers not to apply the pre-determined and programmed climb out speed on the auto throttle when the TOGA button is pressed all the time. It is hardly unprecedented for a plane to briefly touch the ground and still go around inconsistent behaviour by the automation just adds to the pilot workload at a time when they are already busy.
My heart sank when he said that they didn't even have 6 seconds for the engines to gain power. So glad everyone on board made it. Sorry for the loss of the brave firefighter; emergency workers truly do unbelievable work.
I think there’s a common perception that accidents termed “pilot error” means that the pilots were incompetent or negligent, somehow irresponsible, and should never be allowed to fly. While we’ve certainly seen a few analysis videos on this channel where pilots were completely unprofessional, I think the majority really emphasize there’s always more to the story. In this case, although of course unfortunate and tragic, I can understand how the accident happened and can empathize. My heart goes out to the family of the firefighter and all others who were hurt. I’m sure none feel this more keenly than those officers who were responsible for the aircraft and passengers that day. Hopefully this report will help to keep others safe.
Absolutely.
Well said!
Maybe the investigators should reserve the the term "pilot error" to when there is gross mismanagement by the pilot and have another phrase for cases like this. 🤔
@@dennis2376 It's a bit like "the landing gear failed" ... maintenance? design? handling during the incident? objects on the runway? ... or the diagnosis of "organ failure" in a patient. There's always more to the picture.
@@dennis2376 System error would be more suited in this case.
Sadly that fire fighter lost his life saving those souls onboard.
This is 100% PILOT ERROR! They didn't aviate, they didn't watch their own speed. They should never fly again
The more I watch of your videos the more I'm impressed by *just how much* stuff a pilot of an airliner needs to know and do to fly safely. And all within seconds as well sometimes.
Yes.
@@NicolaW72 True. Piloting is challenging. Unfortunately, the airlines no longer want to hire the best pilots. They only want to fill their woke race and gender quotas. Danger ahead.
I was a passenger who Escaped This accident Unharmed.Its a pleasure to Know what Happened that day Thankyou Peter❤️ Love From India
Wow, you are blessed!
“‘
did you grab your bag?
@@misterhamez i can only grab my laptop. The rest is lost☹️
Hey, atleast you're alive mate.
Material things can be replaced, but your life can't.
This is one clearly pointing at training deficiencies by the company and not pilot error. These two young men did what 99.9% of any pilots would do given the circumstances. Kudos to the entire crew for leaving no man behind!💪🙏
how can we prevent this in the future?I dont get this. not everyone can be a genius pilot and figuring out everything .
Lol, the gear actually already touched two times and they didn’t notice it. They were stupid enough to not notice throttles were completely idle and didn’t pay any attention that the speed was dropping dangerous low during a steep climb. Automation or not paying attention to speed when you’re trying to climb from a low attitude should literally be basic instinct to a pilot or anyone trying to fly a plane, yet this videos argues that automation has made them forget to do so. It’s akin to saying that if you have a good-enough calculator then you don’t need to know why 1+1=2, it was down to the basic instincts and in this case the pilots didn’t have any. It’s actually a whole reflection of their thinking processes and the style of problem-solving they adapt, many flight documentaries have shown how younger pilots in this era often overly-rely on automation and instead have lost more basic skills such as just observing the aircraft and watching the instruments, so its clear dilemmas like this is really only unique to younger pilots. Don’t pretend to sound smart and say “99.9% of any pilots” would have done the same because they wouldn’t have, these pilots were “young “ and failed to notice something overly-simplistic because of over-reliance on automation. Your comment just sounds dumb lol
Edit: And BTW, the pilots weren’t even young?? They were 34 and 37 lol
@@louish2037it's easy for you to say watching the video. But from inside the cockpit there were no visual or audible indication notifying pilots of sligh runway touch.
The plane has been flying for almost 40 years. Thousands of low level Go Arounds have been flown over that span. 99.99999 percent of them were successfully flown. No one crashed.
Actually, you have it backward. 99.999999 percent of B777 pilots have actually done Go-Arounds correctly and have not crashed since the plane was introduced in 1990. That's a LOT of Go-Arounds.
You’ve gotta feel for the crew here, they really seemed diligent and ontop of things and just made one tragic mistake. Shows just how small the margin of error is between normal flying and disaster
It's kind of interesting how the spoilers were able to detect that the aircraft was no longer on the ground and were able to retract, but the TOGA button won't deliver TOGA power
It's actually kind of concerning, really. If there is one button that should not be able to be inhibited, it should be the TOGA button.
I would be the first crew member sliding down like weeeee!
It's good that the final report brought up elements that emphasised that the pilots acted according to their training. I can't imagine how guilty they would have felt otherwise.
(before anybody comes to tell me they should have monitored thrust better, yes, of course they should. We all should perform perfectly in our jobs. Unfortunately, being human is kinda of a handicap for that, as this video illustrates by pointing out how limited our attention is, how easily we rely on technology and automatisation, and how easily training can makes us slightly inflexible)
Exactly my point 💕
Couldn't have told that better myself!
Now people walk/run/bike on the wrong side of the road, do not look before crossing, and have phone in face.
Pretty sure the training may be absent for the underlings ! ;-)
Exactly! Even without any negligent actions, or known negligent actions, we will all make mistakes based on assumptions. Many years ago I was told by a woman I met at a trade show, who claimed to be a grandchild of the engineer who created the adages that we call "Murphys Laws," that the reason he created them was to help prevent engineering mistakes by assuming things would always go wrong if they can, rather than assume that all of your careful systems would work or function properly in all situations. This accident shows what can happen when we find out the "something" that went wrong.
I thought this comment was very well-worded, capturing an unfortunate, yet unavoidable, truth.
Btw, it's simply "automation".
I really like the no-blame culture in aviation industry. Pilots actually did everything right due to their training, so when something happens very quickly that is out of the ordinary its easy to forget details and make mistakes. Big shout out to the professionalism of the cabin crew and rest in peace to the unfortunate firefighter that lost his life. Dangerous job that is not appreciated as much as it should be.
Yes, indeed.
More industries should be like that!
I'm a career pilot including captain on the B777 (the type in this crash). They didn't do everything right. The number one rule is don't crash the airplane. They failed at the most basic level. The captain was young and inexperienced. I think that played a part.
@@opinionatedopiner Your comment shows how little you know. Piloting 101 requires that every time a pilot selects a change in position of a switch or control, the pilot must confirm that the desired action took place. ALWAYS. They didn't do that. That is pilot error. But what do I know other than being one of the most experienced pilots on the planet with 45 years and 25,000 hours of flight time. What are your credentials? Maybe you can teach us all something.
An air-hostess on one of her first flights, is my daughter-in-law's Sister. All the hostesses and staff were extremely brave, and praised.
What stood out to me was the fact that the pilot stayed on board to make sure everyone had made it out safe. What a class act
That's his job. He should not have crashed the pane needlessly. I hope they fired him.
@@JohnBedsondid you even watch the video?
@@JohnBedsonbro Pilots don’t just crash on purpose bruh
@@JohnBedson Ah yes, the pilot felt the need to crash the plane and proceeded to do so. Are you even hearing yourself?
@@JohnBedson Seemed like he was a very good pilot, just was not trained for the situation.
I hope these pilots are still flying. I believe they were a professional crew that would have learned from this accident.
I hope not dumbass pilots that cant even realize something as simple as having no thrust shouldn't be anywhere near an airplane
I can't believe that more lives were not lost. I also can not imagine bunking out in full firefighting proximity suits in 120F temps. Wow.
Yeah, the B777 is a sturdy machine!
Genetic transfer of camel genes. Nature has mysterious ways.
we're used to this kind of temperatures between June to September every year.
@@MentourPilot The Boeing 777 is my favorite. I worked for American Airlines from 2000-2001, 911 ended my career. I took a trip from JFK-CDG on a 777. It was glorious!!
One of the biggest things I've learned from your channel is that pilots are humans and our safety doesn't just come from them. It comes from an entire industry which, among many things, understands pilots are human and works around these unavoidable realities. I really truly feel so safe when flying from everything I've learned - not just understanding the statistics, but really feeling and taking to heart the plethora of steps taken for every contingency.
For me it is astounding the number of things that can go wrong. Before it goes terribly wrong
Indeed.
You speak so well and the best part is that most of us with no aviation knowledge, understand you
I salute both pilots and crew, I have a minute's silence for that brave firefighter 🙏
I am a long retired airline pilot and I thought this was one of the best analysis of a crash that I have seen. For perspective I started airline flying as a F/O on the Lockheed Constellation and retired as a Captain on the B-757 so I flew with no autopilot to the full autoland systems. I believe that too much emphasis is placed on the auto systems today and there is just not enough "hands on" flying. In this case the Captain hit the TOGA switches and just assumed that the autothrottles were working. When I was flying an Air Florida plane took off from Washington National in snow and freezing rain without turning on the engine anti-ice and didn't push the throttles forward beyond the EPR limits, which were incorrect due to the ice, and crashed into the Potomac River. I always felt that if I was ever in that type of situation I would break the throttles pushing them forward before I hit the ground. For this reason I never hit the TOGA switches without following the throttles with my hand and if they weren't moving fast enough I helped them out. The automatic systems of today are fantastic and have made flying even safer but they don't replace the pilot they should just enhance the pilot's abilities.
Good stuff. Re: "For this reason, I never hit the TOGA switches without following the throttles with my hand and if they weren't moving fast enough I helped them out." I just retired as a B777 captain. My technique was the same as yours. Hard to imagine anyone not doing that, but here we are. Cheers
Glad to read that seasoned line pilots do what I, as a private pilot, see myself doing: when you need thrust for a go-around, don’t just push a button….ADD THRUST! Re training, I think it would be beneficial to have new pilots learn to fly the sim manually in every flight regime from takeoff to touchdown first, then add in automation one system at a time. These are, after all, just great big airplanes that obey the same laws of physics as little ones. The nose controls the airspeed, thrust controls rate of climb, and every pilot should be capable of safely flying them manually before being allowed to use automation.
I'm just a layperson, so forgive my ignorance, but I can't help but wonder what is the point of a TO/GA button, if not to immediately deliver full engine power?
I think the Potomac River crash has been covered on this channel. Sounds familiar and I seem to recall there even were some survivors...I'm a firm believer in old-school practical/pragmatic thinking. I appreciate wise use of good technology but the trend seems to be more and more contempt built into mindsets. Kinda scary to think a 30 something yo with that much flying experience would overlook something so critical due to habitual reliance on automation. Also, as some have mentioned, no clear warning upon pressing a button for a function that's been deactivated seems ridiculous. The amount of technology and thought that goes into these machines and nobody thought about THAT? Sounds to me like pragmatism is not only lacking in the cockpit but also in the design and engineering rooms. As technology becomes more impressive and complex, we also seem to be going backwards on so many levels.
@@papapetad 3 similarities as I see it between the 2 accidents. 1. They had not been trained properly for the procedure (training can never cover everything). 2. They were performing a procedure they had never done (takeoff in ice and very unlikely the B777 pilot had ever flown a very low go-around in real life). Neither 1 nor 2 should cause an accident. 3 is the big fail. They both commanded the airplane to do something but failed to monitor it to make sure it was doing what they wanted it to do. That is piloting 101. Getting step 3 wrong can/will cause a crash.
I WILL NEVER understand why people believe their carry on bags are more important than the lives of others!
Very unlikely it is a conscious decision. Fairly well known that in high pressure, high stress situations people will fall back into routine (hence in sport, it is important to always train how you would compete in high stress situations).
Very hard to break habits and do something new in a high pressure situation. Sadly this extends to disembarking planes.
IMHO hand luggage compartments should be automatically locked when seat belt light is on
humans are stupid overgrown monkeys. its that simple. we think we are superior to other animals until stress kicks in and we go full primal
The solution to this problem is for airlines to charge a hefty fee for clogging the exits with their stupid bags.
@@josephvanname3377 Charge passengers *after* an accident? That's going to be interesting!
Thank you for reiterating how important it is to investigate possible mistakes, not in the pursuit of assigning blame, but to correct those mistakes in the future.
My dad works at Emirates and a vividly remember that day. Was a long day at the office for him! Also, kudos to you for using the ACTUAL emirates boarding theme at 1.05
I flew with one of the Cabin Crew staff some time after this happened. I became an incredibly anxious passenger after a bad landing in Narita years ago and we were in the middle of a serious turbolence going out from Hong Kong. One of the crew noticed I was scared and came over to tell me that there was nothing to be afraid of because we had an hero Hostess on board. She came over to say hi briefly from her sector once things had calmed down and she was truly the image of serenity. I wish I could remember her name, I never knew the extent of the situation she was in until today.
Thank you for these videos!! I discovered your Channel recently and it's really helping to recover from my flight anxiety😃
I was on a horrible flight as a child and it resulted in making me terrified of flying. It really does affect you for life. I tried taking flying lessons to get over my fear and after only a few lessons my instructor went to Mexico to perform stunts in an airshow and there was a mechanical failure on his plane and he crashed and died. That only made my phobia worse.
As a former Cabin Crew member myself I can safely say that cabin crew are the most under-appreciated and under-valued on the planet relative to their true worth and capabilities. We are all trained to evacuate and capable of evacuating any aircraft of any size within 90 seconds of an evacuation order from the flight deck. I once had to halt our flight on the threshold of the runway because I saw the pax facing me in my jumpseat was having a stroke, that man survived and recovered to live again. Yet the pax in 3C who could see and hear the entire medical emergency unfold just 2 rows in front of him had the fucking audacity to complain to me (when I was securing the cabin for the 2nd time that night) that he was going to be late for his dinner reservation, luckily for me he had undone his seat belt while we were waiting for the paramedics to tend to the man that was having the stroke and all I needed to say to him was "sir please fasten your seat belt for departure, as I'm sure you can appreciate, the other passengers onboard are anxious to depart by now and won't appreciate any undue delays" was worth the look on that posh asshole's face to have said it as nice as I did coz he didn't know how to respond and didn't open his mouth for the entirety of the flight after that, RESULT 🎉🎉🙈🙈😂😂😂
Yeah. Way to go. Good thing you contained your emotions & maintained your composure. Kudos. We appreciate you guys more than you know. My cousin was a stewardess and retired from American airlines before 2000.
As a system architect and software engineer I sense a bit of bad design here. When the system put the engines in idle because of the partial touchdown it should have sent s warning of some sort. Sound, light, haptic, or all of above. Som alltid, bra berättat av dig :)
I am a total lay person on this topic but your comment is what my impression was as well. Seems like once the pilot hit the TOGA buttons it should have warned him of the auto thrust and perhaps even disengage it altogether so he has thrust control back? In any case, it seems you can easily say what the pilot could have done to prevent this after the fact but it seems unreasonable to have expected him to have thought of that given his training and how much was happening in the seconds he had to respond.
@@danelen What I'm struggling to understand is why Boeing would make the auto throttle disable the TO/GA buttons at low altitude, knowing full-well that a go around is extremely time sensitive and a high workload situation. If the pilot hits full throttle, it should go to full throttle, no questions asked.
It feels like less a safety mechanism and more a sign of distrust in pilots. There is no good reason that I can think of to restrict the TO/GA buttons when a pilot can just as easily force the thrust levers to TO/GA at any stage of flight manually. It only serves to allow an error such as the one highlighted in this case, that being the thrust not being applied in a scenario wherein the pilot is used to using auto throttle exclusively.
If the buttons cannot be trusted to do their expected job, they should simply not exist. TO/GA buttons should initiate TO/GA thrust, no exceptions.
Exactly if you hit the go button it shouls say GO GO gO or TOGa TOgA Toga and work. If anyones at fault its ignorant Boeing.
@@MGSLurmey Maybe this is to avoid accidentally trigger TOGA when set reverse thrust? Idk, I’m haven’t seen a real thing. I think it will be too much information if it report everything in touch down. But a rejected order, like TOGA, deserves a callout warning.
in general, if a MISSION CRITICAL button is inhibited/does nothing, the safest design would be to make it physically IMMOVABLE. or at the very least, issue a loud warning that the intended operation has no effect.
It is amazing that there was only one fatality - may the firefighter RIP.
This is an unrelated thought, but it’s hard for me to think of 120 F as being compatible with human life, let alone with actually working to fight a fire.
I would think I had stepped out into Hell itself.
It’s pretty hot, yes
Correction, my underwear was the second casualty
@@euphan123 you were there?
@@0xf7c8 No s/he wasn't there. It's just that no matter the subject or video (wether something like this or any other subject on the face of the earth) someone always has to comment on their personal bowl movements. It never fails. This always remind us as to why the average age of viewers is so low. P.S. I was in error suggesting that this comment could have come from a woman. Women, no matter their character, never make comments like this. This is strictly a male phenomenon.
When I was in Dubai it only got hot at 46c. BTW I'm from an area where it snows.
An easy mistake to make tbh, with how much they need to do whilst planning a go around. The fact that no one from the flight was killed is a testament to how well the crew did. The captain will likely have nightmares and guilt for the rest of his life over the death of the fireman and what could have been. I'd trust him to fly still if he was the pilot of my plane, because he will likely never make another mistake, from now on he will quadruple check everything, and I feel so bad for all involved.
That’s a nice thing to say, kudos 💕
@@MentourPilot I do hope most sensible people concur with this. Often one mistake is likely in any industry or servjce, and how you then react is the thing that often produces flawless work after, and saving the situation well also. Hundreds of lives aren't often on the line, and these pilots are heroes for their actions leading to a good final result I think. My love goes out to the family of the fireman of course, tragic
Exactly, as it happens with any professional field, the longer one goes without incidents, the more likely it is that complacency and distractions can set in. Overconfidence is difficult to manage.
An "easy" mistake to make!!??
To fly you just need ...
POWER AND PITCH.
Then you monitor
Brain Height Airspeed. ..
You do not pick a donkey for a Derby....
@@redboyjan
Are you for real ??
These pilots are "heros"???
An unbelievable lack of basic airmanship.
I have to say that I love the fact that you give the meaning and explanation of all the technical abbreviations you use. When I hear a word and I say to myself: "I must google this" but you instantly give the meaning. Thank you. It makes follow up easier.
The Seabreeze Effect happens in Los Angeles when the high desert heats up in spring causing Gray May & June Gloom.
I'm constantly impressed by the airline industry's commitment and approach to safety. It's impressive how they take each individual incident, carefully investigate it, learn from it, and make meaningful changes that make every flight thereafter that much safer. So many things could benefit tremendously from applying that same approach.
It's probably the only industry on the world with that measure of safety investigation and incident investigation... Just imagine what the world would be if any industry works that way.
I'm sorry to disagree or at least partially disagree, but there are simply far too many examples within the airline industry of economic greed and political issues being placed above safety and transparency. How many accidents, featured on this channel even, have been caused/partially caused by poor maintenance or poor training - if these lessons were being fully learned from why do these remain causes of accidents? A few more specific examples of safety and lesson learning not being the priority include the 2019 English Channel Piper PA-46 crash that killed a footballer and his pilot, and revealed a world of reckless and dishonest rule breaking and lack of accountability within the private charter industry; the infamous missing Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 demonstrates the level of political interference and the lack of any apparent willingness to spend money fixing the issues raised in the investigation (such as proper tracking of flights or updates to aging 'black box' technology) clearly shows that cost is often placed above safety - a point further demonstrated by the disgusting conduct of Boeing throughout (and their overly close relationship with the FAA) with the 737 Max accidents, where so many safety corners were cut for purely financial reasons; or perhaps the attitude of airlines that flew passenger flights over Ukraine during the conflict in the Crimea and eastern regions in 2014 that resulted in the shooting down of a KLM plane, where they simply pointed out that nobody told them not to, so presumably according to them it was fine to fly over warzones without informing passengers to keep fuel costs and flight times down.
This is not always true...you should follow the story of how the 737 Max was developed...there's political and institutional corruption...to be dealt with
in my industry (trucking) they do this half heartedly and just install poorly thought out or plain old dangerous "safety system". some of them care more about saving diesel then actually practical safety. almost like the systems where thought up and programmed by the cheapest people who have never driven a truck in their life
Its cheaper to fix a part than pay many millions in lawsuits for hundreds of dead people.
Excellent report. As a retired 777 pilot I can see how this would happen. The reliance on automation was always a problem that our training department always covered during simulator sessions. One item not mentioned was engine noise. When the power is advanced to a high- power setting you can hear it quite well in the cockpit. Problem is in high stress situations the body starts to change in that your visibility starts to narrow (tunnel vision) and your hearing ability decreases. The stress of a low go-around which is one of the most dangerous procedures a flight crew can do would increase stress. I have witnessed many a time where pilots are affected by excessive stress while flying combat in a helicopter in Vietnam. I always briefed new pilot on this problem. After a while most pilots got use to the dangers of combat, so their stress levels dropped.
I was going to say, wouldn't the pilots have noticed that there was no spool up sound and no feeling of acceleration (being pushed into their seat) from the TOGA thrust? But your explanation does make sense. I'm not a pilot, but I have definitely experienced moments of brain freeze in high stress situations.
@@mdhazeldine Of course the pilots should have noticed. Every action should be monitored to confirm that the airplane does what it's told. That's pilot 101. The crew failed at the most basic level. (Imma B777 captain with 25,000 hours).
@@CaptainSteve777 The captain only had 7,500 hours and these accidents only happen on your worst day- otherwise we don't hear about it. If you have never missed anything in your 25,000 hours than that is fantastic, but it is beyond a reasonable expectation of a regular human. Admittedly it is a really big miss- but only for a few seconds. It seems like a poor company policy in my view considering how the system works- complete throttle automation except in this specific circumstance that is an emergency and we won't train you on it.
@@carbon1255 There's never been a flawless pilot or airplane, and never will be. The key is to have priorities in order. Some things matter more than others (like adding power on a low go-around). A pilot must never allow a large mistake, especially a large one that isn't caught quickly. Thankfully, I can claim a perfect record in that. As far as the company training, sure, modify it. I agree there is too much reliance on automation. Regardless, that in no way removes responsibility from the pilot to fly the airplane safely. Training will never be perfect either. This should have easily been prevented by a skillful crew.
@@mdhazeldine Just a few seconds after spool up should have been underway but wasn't the crash became inevitable?
(Should have felt the lever not moving within a second of pushing "the button" though)?
I know nothing about aviation…I’m just barely interested in it…
But this guy is so fantastic, I can’t stop watching his stuff.
He makes a simple bolt holding down a seat sound FASCINATING.
Literally! I just watched one of his videos yesterday where a seat came unbolted... and I was glued to my seat listening.
Thank you Mentour Pilot! You do an absolutely amazing job explaining in perfect detail every aspect of what has happened during these aviation incidents !!!
Cabin crew / baby sitters to the rescue, the unsung heroes ! Great vid as always .
Thank you
From one Ginger to another, your story telling is on point! Easy to understand and follow. Enjoy watching every video you upload.
Thank you! 💕
@Mentour Pilot I'm not in aviation industry. My greatest desire as young boy was to become a pilot but 30 years ago it was a struggling period in country I come from. I've found your channel recently and every morning while i'm drinking my coffee, preparing for work, I watch one of your videos. The way you are presenting incidents, accidents, procedures and news on both of your channels is exceptional! I guess that cadets you are working with are lucky to have such a great mentor. Keep up the excellent work! Greetings from Serbia P.S. I'm using comments section in latest video just to send you this message.
It's amazing how understandable and comprehensive these videos are!
Cheers to the cabin crew! This is a reminder to us all that their job isn’t only to serve us food and drinks in flight and hence they must be treated well and recognized more especially in these times that there’s a shortage of them in some if not most airlines. Also as usual, excellent job, Petter for this video - always informative!
I get your point, but I'd like to point out that people who "just" serve food and drink deserve to be treated well too. Low technical requirements of someone's job shouldn't be grounds to treat them like lesser humans.
The drinks and service are just a courtesy, their entire job and training are focused on safety in the air and during emergencies.
As somebody with no training or outside knowledge of the intricate details associated with flying, these videos are simply fantastic! It's not easy to be very knowledgeable about a subject involving concepts which don't come naturally to people outside of the aviation world, yet be able to create engaging, interesting and easy to follow videos about them! Huge respect to you, I love all your videos and think you're doing a brilliant job! Keep up the good work! 👍
what i like the most about your narrations is that you don’t talk down to people who have very limited knowledge of what you discuss. You are an excellent speaker as well
as I pilot i’m really thankful for these videos and the pilot community as a whole for sharing accidents and investigation information as I think it can benefit each and every one of us
I'm a cabin crew member I watch from that prospective
this makes me think of an expression I was taught: "practice doesn't make perfect. practice only makes consistent." they had practiced, and everything they did up to realizing the throttles hadn't advanced was consistent with their practice. I seem to recall one of the big three aviation channels doing a clip about go-arounds and saying their training included pressing the TOGA buttons and then following the throttles with their hand to feel positive confirmation the throttles had advanced to TOGA.
But what use is a TO/GA button if you have to follow the throttles with your hand anyway ?? Honestly it should either exist and do it’s job always or not exist at all, the middle ground is what caused this crash. Or at least there should be an audio warning when the button is pushed while AT is inhibited
@@almostyumi I'm not going to second guess the design since I'm not an aircraft engineer. But i know any change made to an existing aircraft has a ripple effect.
ironically a newer noob pilot would have probably spotted this.
Personally I think the pilots are the least to be blamed in this incident, as they were conditioned to react like that by their training. Maybe a bit of confirmation bias on the PICs part on the throttles not moving forward, but when you expect a system to react a certain way because that's how its gone in your training (when they throw issues at you), it's much much harder to catch it in high workload situations. Incredible teamwork by the cabin crew to get everyone off through just 3 exits before the central tank exploded
Thanks for all of the effort you put into these videos. They've been a fantastic source of education since you take the time to explain a lot of interesting details about the way certain systems on these aircraft work. I've been going through a lot of these lately for both entertainment and learning. I also really appreciate that you present the information facts first without manufactured drama, but are still sensitive to loss of life and injuries in the accidents.
I’ve watched shows like this before but watching you with your expert commentary makes these so much more interesting and educational. Thank you so much for being here and teaching me something new.
I have sat through many accident reports that were almost impossible to stay awake for. You are amongst the few who can intelligently animate the facts for our gain. Thank you.
I clearly remember this day. I was listening to a online radio station in my phone. Their office was near to the Airport. Suddenly they stopped the music and said something happened in the Airport and they are not sure what happened. After some time they said they have seen an explosion. Sometime later I got know this flight started from my home state. That was shocking news for me. Then after some hours only we got to know all the passengers escaped . Kudos to the crew.
RIP the fire man. He was a hero.
Thanks man, for the detailed explanation. The difference between your videos and other accident investigations is they make the people scared for flying. But your videos make us understand why it happened and the chances of repeating that mistake is near to nothing.
THE MOST DETAILED aviation stories on CZcams!!! Very well done!!!
Your narration had me spellbound. Amazing
I'm not a pilot, have very little interest in planes but absolutely love this channel. So much information, so much to learn. Thanks Mentour Pilot.
Im literally addicted to these aviation videos, I’ve watched every single one
Thank you for your support!
You are the best at giving insight into aircraft accidents. Nice job as always! 👌
I remember this story. In typical Emirati fashion they kept the Emirati pilots name classified but had no problem with throwing the Australian co-pilots name in the dirt
Interesting bit of information, thanks for sharing. I am not surprised.
Because in Asian and Middle Eastern culture it's all about face so if you can blame the foreign colonizer for it then you blame them for itBecause in Asian and Middle Eastern culture it's all about face so if you can blame the foreign colonizer for it then you blame them for it
The fact that ALL passengers and crew members survived is a miracle.
At the beginning of the video Petter did not warn about casualties, so I somehow expected that.
I would not have stowed the hear that early on toga.
I think there were far worse crashes and people survived. This actually doesn't seem like a miracle at all
@@siemniak I'm sure the passengers and crew would strongly disagree with you
From Allah the almighty
That’s really cool that you used to be an ARFF firefighter. I was trained in ARFF too but only after I started getting sick as a result of a toxic exposure while fighting a non ARFF related fire. Most people don’t fully recognize the dangers firefighters are exposed to and most other videos wouldn’t have mentioned those dangers. Thank you
The opening animation with frontal shots of the triple 7 do her justice, it shows how beautiful she really is..... she's my favourite aircraft to fly on.
It is always a pleasure to watch your very informative and well investigated aviation accidents.
I’ll be flying domestically for the first time in 8 years on Monday. Because of phobia/ptsd reasons, I’ve only flown twice internationally in that time, when I absolutely had to. Monday is a work trip for what I feel is a very silly reason (they need to spend the budget!). I think the calm discussion and voice of all your videos, even discussing terrifying accidents, has helped me get to a place where I’m not in a steady panic attack of anticipation. I plan to wear my Positive Attitude t-shirt 👍
Hearing about the ways that pilots and crews train to avoid errors and improve interactions has also informed my efforts to improve processes at my own workplace (it’s a wonder any of our projects get off the ground at all, to be honest 🙂).
I’m glad to hear that it has helped you. I hope you will have a pleasant flight. 💕
Have a great trip!
Plenty of time to watch more Mentour, before your flight. Best wishes for Monday!
@@maryeckel9682 Thank you! I should start packing 😄
@@beeble2003 Thank you. Maybe I’ll watch (only the happy) Mentour Pilot vids during the flight to keep calm. 😎
I love how you blur most of the view in the "Correct landing procedure" section (15:05). That helps to show the difference between trying to look at two things at the same time in real life vs. on a screen where everything is quite close and in all in focus at the same time.
Yes, indeed.
Amazing video and analysis. I’m not a pilot I simply love travel. The extent of knowledge and training and expertise involved in your profession is amazing and awesome. Your dedication is absolutely incredible. I just love it. Thank you.
The work you´re doing is absolutely fantastic! Cant put a price tag on it, thank you
Thank you Petter for the thought-provoking information, moral integrity, genuine passion. An example!
I hadn't heard about this accident, but the way you described it, I could see how the failure chain was building up, and the investigation's results were basically what I expected them to be under those circumstances.
I really like these videos, as they highlight how it (generally) takes a long string of failures or oversights to cause a major accident. This isn't a concept limited to aviation; a lot of accidents or disasters in other quarters were probably caused by such a failure chain building to catastrophe. I know it's a bit outside your comfort zone, but I could easily see you applying your format to, say, the explosion of oxygen tank 2 on Apollo 13; that was a _classic_ case of a failure chain.
That’s exactly the point I want to make with these videos. Glad you appreciated it.
Very well put, sir. Also, I commend him for including, when germane, interpersonal relationship dynamics (CRM) and not shying away from discussing cultural psychological factors in those failure chains. Insightful and very thorough, indeed.
Amazing narrative Petter! Wow. I had not kept up with the aftermath of this accident. Explained perfectly.
The quality of your videos keeps getting better and better! You're doing such an amazing job! WOW!
Thanks for another wonderful video Petter. Learned the new term , "Children of the Magenta line". Paused the video to look that up. While I don't work in aviation, the increased use of automation in many fields, makes it tempting for older workers who lived through the manual to more automated ways, to feel a sense of superiority about their increased instant recall knowledge of the inner workings.
In that heat, 50C, from my understanding, more speed is needed to generate lift than at 25C. Idle thrust setting surely sealed the fate of the aircraft.
You are right. Quantitatively: 50 instead of 20 °C decreases the air density by 10 %, so that 5 % more speed would generate the same lift. I guess that this effect (as well as air pressure) is already factored into the suggested speed profile.
I had to look it up, too. For anyone wondering, this is what I found, I assume it's accurate -
A term used by old boomer pilots, old Designated Pilot Examiners, and employees at the Federal Aviation Administration, that refuse to accept the fact that times have changed and technology has improved in between the time the wright brothers first flew and when the Airbus A320neo first flew. These older pilots, usually refuse to acknowledge the fact that advances in aviation have made flying safer and more efficient. A derogatory term used to describe younger pilots that use the GPS functions of the airplane's avionics, like the Garmin G1000.A term used by old boomer pilots, old Designated Pilot Examiners, and employees at the Federal Aviation Administration, that refuse to accept the fact that times have changed and technology has improved in between the time the wright brothers first flew and when the Airbus A320neo first flew. These older pilots, usually refuse to acknowledge the fact that advances in aviation have made flying safer and more efficient. A derogatory term used to describe younger pilots that use the GPS functions of the airplane's avionics, like the Garmin G1000.
@@Julia-nl3gq what your search returned is a slightly inaccurate. Even "old boomer pilots" happily use GPS. But if it fails, they can easily revert to other methods of navigation such as pilotage, dead reckoning, VORs etc. Kind of like how if you're driving and Google maps navigation fails, then dad (who always gets made fun of for being a boomer) pulls out an atlas and knows how to use it, lol.
@@Julia-nl3gq where did you find that? The term “children of the magenta” traces to 1997, when American Airlines captain Warren Vanderburgh said the industry has made pilots too dependent on monitoring the magenta lines on the machines that are really flying the plane
Phenomenal work by the cabin crew
Absolutely 💕
Indeed.
im an aircraft mechanic for a major airline (20+ years). Your knowledge of aircraft systems is very helpful.. Keep up the good work, Thanks
Best aviation CZcams channel! Without question. Keep up the great work
This Man Sure Has Improved His "Presentation".... He Has Made This One of The Best Aviation Sites On CZcams... This Was a Great Report,,,,
Thank you! We are always aiming to improve! 💕
@@MentourPilot Also shout out to your editor. He's getting way better and better with his amazing animations! Very impressive, given what I imagine the budget is and how little time he has to make them.
You Need To Improve Your "Punctuation"... Not Every Word,,,, Needs To Be Capitalized;;;;;
Let them be, their positive was message was conveyed and that's all that really matters as far as this comments section goes
I love these videos. I could be watching them all day. I hope that you have a lot more of them planned for the future. Keep them coming. Great work. :)
I only felt 120 degrees once in my life living in California. It’s literal hell going outside, it feels like a weighed heated blanket is dropped on you the second you leave the ac
I've felt 118 degrees once living in Arizona. I was working as a lifeguard at the time and within four hours of the work day two of our guards had passed out from heat exhaustion. We closed the pool shortly after that.
Lol. You’re just not used to it. It’s a dry heat.
If it's humid, yes. In the middle East it's a dry heat - just like stepping into an electric oven.
101 is the hottest I’ve experienced in Ohio and I thought that was awful. Hope to never see 120
It was 118 in Sacramento couple weeks ago. I left Sac got to Vallejo where it was 114 and it felt so much cooler. It's actually painful when it's that hot
Love your video's, Petter. I am a ships Captain, Master Mariner as we call it, and find your attention to CRM very instructive. Even through we move in 2 dimensions and you do in 3 dimensions, we have to deal with a very large amount of untrained ship' officers that we encounter constantly. So trained officers will react and operate predictably, while the majority unfortunately does absolutely not. We are constantly required to use BRM, bridge resource management, to deal with complicated situations that would not be there if everyone had followed the proper training. Thanks for your ' absolutely fantastic' insights. I am a better ship' captain because of it.
This is a deep analysis, and always reminds me of the power of coordination and the effects of the failed systems.
I'm blown away. I would never have guessed he was an airport firefighter in his early career.
25:19 I literally threw my hands up in disbelief. Why do people do that!?
- "Oh look, the engines are on fire and the cabin is filled with thick smoke. Quick let's all start fiddling with the luggage compartments!"
Ik for some people their belongings are more important than other lives and the flight had departed from trivandrum and some malayalis are ignorant
I’m so glad I was recommended this channel. It’s so much better than those air disaster shows that used to be on Discovery channel. Great use of MSFS too. Loved this
I always really enjoy your accident investigation review videos! Its a very engaging and gripping story. Thank you!
Thanks for the video. I read the final report two years ago and ode to you for summarizing it all in less than 30 minutes! I was particularly impressed by the 777's A/THR and how it was linked to the radio altimeter and main gear tilt/un-tilt logic. So many assumptions were made by everyone involved (ATC, Flight Crew, and Firefighters) yet everything happened so fast to make a routine landing go terribly wrong.
A realtime replay with your commentary would be interesting to appreciate the swiftness of the accident sequence
Yes, that could be a good idea
@@MentourPilot A super idea for the intro, and perhaps for the outro too, after we understand the cheese holes better.
@@MentourPilot Oh yeah you can read out the transcript with a friend while showing the POV of what both pilot monitoring and pilot flying would be looking at!
That would give us non-pilots a "real"er sense into what pilots experience in these high workload situations
Every time I see one of these videos there is an increase in my flying comfort. Each takeoff and landing is backed by the knowledge gained from the tragic outcomes covered. Knowing that, I am a far more comfortable flyer than I might have otherwise been.
You are for real the easiest person to listen explaining anything. Hope you’ll train as many pilots possible cuz that would be a great thing for everyone involved in flying one way or another. This summer I met one of your students with whom you actually have video in your beginings… he is of course Pilot now,great simple Welsh guy and he just confirmed what I allready knew; you are really Great Great Mentor we all need more people like you in all types and directions of education at every level. Cheers from Croatia
They did as trained and the training had a blind spot. Sad to see an accident and death happen to catch it, but it takes review of the system, as you say. Your full exploration of the system failure causing the accident is why I like watching these videos.
Another great video, thanks Petter, you deliver a wonderful mix of storytelling and education.
I had to look up “Children of the MAGENTA line” , good pub quiz question!
Thank you for these new type of accidents videos without the thumbnails with a stupid face and also thanks for not doing all the crazy editing with your face and reaction things you did back in the day. This is exactly the content we want, factual, precise, objective with an immense level of detail and explaination from an engineering and pilot point of view. Also great visuals and great storytelling. It feels serious and mature just how these videos should be
I'm constantly impressed with how awesome your videos are. Thanks for the great content!
Very thorough description of the incident. You all do such a great job.
As a programmer for the past 25+ years, I know how critical it is to plan for all possible scenarios, no matter how unlikely they may be. In my profession, failing to do so may cause a program to crash, but nobody dies. Sadly, that's not the case in all professions. It sounds like the airline took the now-common "it'll never happen, so don't waste time thinking about it" mindset when designing and implementing its pilot training. This accident is the tragic, but inevitable, outcome of that line of thinking.
As a programmer, I know that no matter how hard you might try, it is in practice impossible to plan the optimal outcome for all possible scenarios in a system with any level of complexity. At some point the human in the system will act in a way you didn't expect, or the computer will kill one of the processes, or a server developed by a different team will return a web response you didn't expect. It's not always a matter of assuming something will never happen, it's just as often or more often that something just never occurs to anyone as a possibility.
And yes, there are plenty of software houses that rush stuff to market, there's plenty of code that assumes a computer's clock time won't be set to before the Unix epoch and just figure if it's an issue the code can be patched, but when it comes to systems with a high importance such as these, that require a lot of certification and so on, it's probably best to assume the mistakes weren't made intentionally to cut costs unless such a motivation and deliberate decision can be proven.
@@traveller23e While I agree that it's indeed impossible to plan for _every_ contingency, something like a simple generic feedback when the user makes a "forbidden" input is super-duper basic as far as programming is concerned. An audible warning along the lines of "TOGA inhibited" or even just a buzzing sound can't be too much to ask for. Especially considering how many less important warnings there are.
@@traveller23e "As a programmer, I know that no matter how hard you might try, it is in practice impossible to plan the optimal outcome for all possible scenarios..." - I never said "plan the OPTIMAL outcome"; I said "plan for all possible scenarios". You need to make sure your plan does SOMETHING for any given scenario, even if that "something" isn't optimal. In the case of programming, it means, for example, to make sure every possible input is considered when using an "if" statement. Too often, I've heard people say something along the lines of "that will never happen, so don't waste time programming a response for it".
To address your examples:
"At some point the human in the system will act in a way you didn't expect" - Don't you validate your input? Don't you show an error message, flag an error condition, throw an exception, etc if an input is invalid?
"or the computer will kill one of the processes" - In a system where this is possible, wouldn't you have something in place (especially in a critical application in which failure can result in loss of life) that would verify all processes are running and show an error message, flag an error condition, throw an exception, etc if it detects a process is not running?
"or a server developed by a different team will return a web response you didn't expect" - Don't you validate the responses you receive and show an error message, flag an error condition, throw an exception, etc, when an invalid response is received?
If you answered "no" to the above questions, then you are the type of programmer about whom I was speaking. You don't need to have a crystal ball and predict every potential scenario, but you do need to ensure that you plan for every possible scenario, even if that plan is simply to have a generic "error" response for any unexpected scenario.
@@nomore6167 Thanks a lot for this. I’m a beginner Full Stack developer and I learned a lot from reading this. Do you have any advice for me? I’m currently finishing my second year of college but I have around 3 years of experiencing freelancing in Java and php, and client-side languages. I’m worried about the difficulty of looking for job In the US while having no official BA degree.
Is there any advice that you could give? How was it like when you started out?
@@nomore6167 There's a difference between logging "Value should_continue was unexpectedly ja, returning -1" and "User typed ja instead of the expected y or yes, but we'll assume that means yes anyway".
What I'm saying is that your implication that the people responsible had made the deliberate decision of not handling that edge case is probably inaccurate. The edge case was definitely handled somehow (i.e. goaround thrust was not applied and there weren't any obvious warnings to the pilots), however as the report found in this particular case the somehow wasn't perfect. Likewise, had the humans in the system (pilots) been trained for this exact scenario and acted according to that training, the issue would have been averted. As I previously pointed out, unless there's actually evidence that people noticed the potential shortcomings in the system (in both the human and computer portions) and decided it wasn't worth investing effort into, it's probably safer to assume that it just never occurred to anyone as a possibility.
Been waiting for a long time for this. Thank you.
Just wow. You were very informative and gave more information then I ever knew about this incident.
Demonstrating the efficiency of the aviation industry, this accident made us change the go-around procedure and the way we train in the sim in my company.
Namely, from the "go-around" call to the "flags 20" call on the 747, we pause to make sure the thrust increases properly.
May the firefighter RIP and I find flight attendants to do an amazing job.
Gracias por tan excelente descripción y explicación de lo ocurrido en este accidente,como siempre el análisis técnico de los hechos y los factores contribuyentes son ejecutados de la mejor manera posible para ser entendidos por expertos y por los que no tienen mucha experiencia en aviación. Muy buen trabajo de nuevo gracias.
Thank you...this video clearly shows that the importance of placing blame is well overpowered by the minor details that, when examined by themselves, increased the chances of failure.