I think that the little cubby hole in the wall is a grenade sump, I remember going over fight position plans of the current US Army and they always suggest digging a 3 foot deep by 9 inch wide or so hole deeper than the floor of your fighting position to chuck any hand grenades into if they happen to find their way inside. Of course that's just my guess it could be to store your vodka and borscht in.
I doubt it. If it had been built maybe 2 years later then possibly. Hand grenades weren't widely used at the beginning of the war. It wasnt until around 1916 that they really became common. Yes they still had and used hand grenades but not nearly enough integrating when they were a rare threat
The Imperial Russians had more experience than most in trench warfare at the beginning of the war thanks to the extensive use of it in the Russo-Japanese war ten years earlier. Despite losing that war as well they learnt many lessons from it which would prove useful but as it ended up not decisively so.
Spent my childhood in those trenches playing war in the "Puotinkylä" region marked on the map :) Oh and those trenches are not "just outside of Helsinki", they're in Helsinki - don't know if those regions were parts of Helsinki in 1917 though. Of course some of them are outside too.
The scallop was probably to take the front tripod leg of the MG. It would have allowed them to move the pivot of the gun closer to the firing port, resulting in a wider field of fire.
That's what I was thinking. Also, because they used water-jacketed MGs, that scallop might be some kind of extra space for a fortress mount which allows the MG to be pulled inside in case of heavy barrage (pull back and down via a rail in the mount). Not sure if that is the case in this, but I've seen similar "contraptions" :)
This wasn't mentioned in the video and although it might not be the case in that location, an interesting fact is that many of those trenches are actually cut into bedrock. That's because most of the hills around Helsinki, and in the southern Finland in general, are actually bedrock formations. So if you wanted to fortify a position with good view and fields of fire you had to cut rock to make them. I'd imagine that those were some of the most durable field fortification of the war. Also those trenches actually did see a little bit of action. When the Germans invaded Finland in 1918 to help the white counterrevolutionaries there was some fighting between them and the reds defending Helsinki that took place in those fortifications. I know there was a was small battle in Leppävaara (Alberga in the map shown in the video). Of course the reds, who were basically militia with little to no training, didn't fair well against the veterans of the German division. There are a few places where the trenches have been restored, and some of the artillery positions are almost fully intact. Also I remember going into what probably was a storage cave from that time period in Espoo about 15 years ago. When I lived there there were trenches and a couple of what I think were pretty intact shelters (they had roofs and locked doors) in my back yard.
All this belongs to a very large system of fortifications and numerous coastal artillery batteries that, in addition to Helsinki, also encompasses the city of Tallinn on the south shore of the Gulf of Finland and numerous islands inbetween. The aim of the fortress was to block any naval assault on St. Petersburg, then capital of Russian Empire ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_the_Great%27s_Naval_Fortress ). Some parts of the fortress are also remain and are accessible for visiting in Estonia.
Regarding the rumor that Chinese laborers were used to construct the trench, I saw a couple of quick clips that looked like they were Chinese trees of Heaven. At least in America wherever the Chinese stayed for a while they would plant these trees they look kind of like an extremely large fern. I'm guessing that they would have followed the same tradition in other countries. Really enjoy these videos. History forgotten is history repeated.
Apparently the roofs have caved in because the bunkers were dynamited after the war(s). All that iron and steel was too valuable left lying in the fortifications.
Early fortifications had wooden roofs later they made all concrete shelters. And its true that russians bring chinese workers to work here because all finnish are producing material to imperial army in factories around capital area. But in Helsinki area there are fortifications from Napoleonic wars via Krimean war to modern times. Inc. parts of Pjotr-pavel sea fortificatios with functional restored 12" guns. And after I ww civilians stole everything valuable from those trenches.
This is very cool. My mother grew up near one of these trenches, they had a house around what's marked "Alberga" on the map. She told me stories about them and of course, the chinese builders were involved as well. Though she was born in the 50's, so it was all second hand information as well. But I imagine the trenches were in a much better shape 50 years ago than they are now. Also, I believe they used some parts of those installations in WW2 as part of the air defense ring around Helsinki.
Some of the bunkers were collapsed on purpose to prevent hazards (as they were in pretty bad shape after 50 years of no looking after) when eastern suburban areas of Helsinki were built (IIRC)
When I see fortifications like these overgrown with forestry, I have to wonder what the sight lines were like when they were built; the land had to have been almost bare of trees.
I walked the seige lines at Vicksburg a while back, and while the woods were beautiful, I just couldn't get the sense of facing cannon in the opposing lines less than a hundred yards away. Surviving photos showed the landscape to be barren. I wish the park management had maintained the terrain as grassland.
4:50 I once heard(I don’t remember from where) that these cutouts in the wall were places for the trench’s garrison to store their excess ammunition, weapons, etc.. If they ever had to evacuate the trench they could leave the gear behind and cover up the opening with a concrete block so it would look like part of the wall to avoid the enemies from capturing the left behind supplies and if they ever recaptured the trench they could remove the concrete block and get all of their supplies back. (I Don’t know how true this is but it’s interesting to consider)
It is quite possible that the Chinese were contract labour. Britian used a lot of contract Chinese labour, The Chinese Labour Corp, there is a Chineses war cemetetry in France. In WW2 however a great deal of the Atlantic Wall was built by Russian POW's. That is a whole story on par with the Concentration Camps. Though the German's wern't picky, political prisoners,and forced labour from Occupied countries were included.
Nice to see some totally unknown part of the war! However I do have to disagree about these being some of the only permanent trenches of the first word war. If you visit the Italian, also named the Isonzo front, you'll see trenches and fortifications that were used for most of the war, completly fashioned in concrete or stone. Most of the front barely moved here for three years, so there was ample time to costruct a permanent fortification network. Very interesting to visit, I do have contacts to arrange a tour if you or anybody else is interested. Some of these are very well preserved due to them being made of stone and rock and sometimes even just cut into the mountains.
I live in Kotka, about an hour's ride eastwards from Helsinki, the woods here are filled with old Russian trenches from this period, mostly around Fort Kymi and mostly in very poor condition, they're little more than shallow ditches at this point, but I have a lot of fond memories of exploring them as a kid.
Actually a very good construction. With those bunkers, fighting positions, lower walking area, and machine gun...basically bunker positions, that would be rather comfortable compared to other trenches.
That was my first thought too- a grenade sump. It looks deep enough. And it's slightly behind the fighting position, for noise and frag reasons. It was probably lined with some dirt as well, to cut down on blast damage to the interior concrete.
Whoa, that is an incredible find. You can see how they zig-zag the trench to deflect explosives going off in the trench... Those zigs just make it feel that much more claustrophobic when you have your head down... no thanks!
To feel claustrophobic you have to be alive. The zig zag not only limited blast travel it allowed sections to sealed off if the enemy got in. Better when attacking not to actually enter the system, run above it and shoot down at the milling mass below.
I think these where largely build to defend from Sweden. Sweden remained neutralish in the war, but when UK tried to rope them in, they warned that if forced to enter the war, they would NOT be on the side of Russia (ie Allies).
No, they were built in case of German invasion of Finland. Russians had realised after the war against Japan that their navy sucked and couldn't be trusted alone to defend St. Petersburg, their capital. St. Petersburg was really near the Finnish coast, so they needed something to beef up defences in Finland when WWI began. Russia at the time wasn't really concerned about Sweden.
Concrete seems like a good idea for structural integrity but I would think it would absorb shrapnel like wood or sandbags. Plus with wood and concrete the material becomes projectiles when hit with shells.
According to Finnish national broadcasting company's archives there were 3000 Chinese workers in Helsinki between 1914 and 1916. Also over 100 000 people worked at some point on the fortifications. Russia was worried about the Baltic security and St. Petersburg after they lost their Baltic fleet to Japan in 1905. yle.fi/elavaarkisto/kuvat/2014/img106297-previewImage.jpg a picture of Chinese workers in Helsinki 1914
I believe that some of these trenches saw actual use in 1917; a German detachment was sent to help the Finnish White Army against the Reds (finns and some russians) in the Finnish War of Independence/Civil War and some reds took positions in the trenches around Leppävaara. Their training and leadership being quite amateurish, the Germans drove them out after a short fight.
That's a sturdy looking trench. Any idea how thick the concrete is? Maybe its more resistant to damage from artillary than dirtbags or wicker. Was the ground paved as well? I'm sure it would have been nice not to slosh around in mud, was there any sort of drainage system?
Most of those trenches are actually cut into bedrock. Often the concrete is there only to smooth out the sides. I suppose the shock waves would have been a bigger threat in a trench like that than in a trench where the softer soil would absorb more of the blast. There are also drain channels in those trenches. Well, in some of them.
When did you film this? I had not heard of any new travels that both of you took to Finland. I remember that you went to Verustaleka a while ago, did you film this then?
Later on, daily lectures from a Bolshevik cadre? 😜 Seriously, what about those Chinese labourers?! Where did they end up? Did any of them make it home?
Not much, as they never really got there... Except for reds during the Finnish civil war. They fought (very inefficiently) against the Germans in Alberga for a short while before (very unwisely) retreating inside Helsinki (to be utterly defeated).
Nothing happened in these trenches. They were made because Russians expected German naval invasion in Helsinki, which never happened. So these trenches never saw combat. These trenches were destroyed after the war as Finland gained indepandance.
Certainly true, although I suppose you need to prepare for then threat you think will happen even if it actually doesn't. The Imperial government would have fallen just as fast if they couldn't stop the Germans in the first years of the war.
Probably was for you to chuck a grenade into if one got into the blockhouse. With open trenches you tossed them over the trench walls. But that MG position had a roof. You have ~2 seconds to find the grenade and shove it down the chute. Grenade fuses still smoked back then, so you'll notice right away one coming at you. Definitely doable.
I'm confused, the angled concrete on the machine gun emplacement seems ass backward. If you think of arrow slits in a castle it's one hundred and eighty degree design. A wide angle at the backside narrowing to a small slit that is nearly in possible to hit or ricochet into or toss a grenade into. Wouldn't the way that is layed out funnel fire into the bunker?
Steve P with archery, the archer can actually shift side-to-side with his feet. With a heavy machine gun, it’s center is fixed on a tripod, so it can pivot but not shoft.
The end of the arrow didn't have to fit outside the wall before firing. Look at medieval gun positions they are based on the Narrow Back wide front design. Also we are seeing these positions naked! In use there was often wooden slats and or sandbags lining the apatures to lessen such problems. Sections of trench were often roofed with wood and had sandbags or erath piled on top to make covered sections. This stuff was and is time consuming and expensive to make, so you have the minimu of fixed works with Feild Works dug in bettween where needed at the time.
They were really far away from the front during WWII. Some of the fortified hills were used by anti-aircraft units protecting Helsinki from Soviet terror bombings, but those units didn't really have a need for the trenches.
They saw a bit of action during the Finnish civil war with Red finns defending and Imperial germans attacking. Now the reds in Helsinki were some of the lower tier troops with no prior combat experience and left the positions prematurely which made the confused germans think they had decided to abandon Helsinki and tried to parade march into the city after that. A german officer noted that they would be invincible if they had such trench system themselves.
I would recommend that you Visit the Great Patriotic War Victory monument and Museum in Moscow USSR if you get the chance. It is huge! and very interesting. Their hall of Hero's is somber it is where their version of our Metal of Honor are given out. The Museum has a huge pile of captured Nazi battle flags and many displays. Interestingly the only US M1 rifle shown is in about 40 % condition. On display outside is a large dirt and log trench system. Signs show the price in terms of man hours of work and amount of logs needed to make each; Meter of length, firing position, Machine gun point, first aid station, troop shelter etc. There is also a small lake with a sub marine, PT Boat and . A full Armored train including a rail road tie destroying plow is also on display. Next to these displays is the Russian Holocaust museum and monument that could easily be missed if you don't look for it.
okay, so this is a legit question, as I honestly dont know the answer I know you turned off ad revenue but is there still any revenue from those with a youtube red account viewing your content ?
Yes, but they were built at the Finnish-Russian border in the 30's against Soviet aggression - these were made during WWI (most sources state that the work started 1915) to protect Helsinki in case of German forces landing into southern Finland. I believe that some trenches saw actual use in 1917; a German detachment was sent to help the Finnish White Army against the Reds (finns and russian) in the Finnish War of Independence/Civil War and some reds took positions in the trenches around Leppävaara. Their training and leadership being quite amateurish, the Germans drove them out after a short fight.
In parts of France, where the ground is rock the defenses were breastworks built up of local material, and constructed shelters, mostly known as Pill Boxes at the time.. Only a small part of the Great War was mud and blood of the Western Front.
Maybe i have missed something in the video, but to me it looks like this concrete is missing its steel reinforcment? (maybe a reson why the bunker roofs collapsed)
Local people stripped off the steel after the war. All that steel was very valuable in a poor country like newly independent Finland. Bunker roofs are gone because they were blown up to gain access to the steel within them.
Usually Steel is inside the concrete, the concrete parts in the video are so large, that the steel "harvest" of them doesn't look that plausible. You would have to blast it to pieces that are smaller than the net of steel rods. And there are no cutting marks of steel rods coming out of the walls either who would have been cut of right there. (or the walls would have been blown up too. I'm not doubting that there were bunkers who were blown up, but the one they showed doesn't look like that to me. (more like someone was short of steel building this bunker and trenches, and that's why they are still there -> no stell in there)
Small bunkers with roofs like that were all blown up after the war. They all look more or less the same, I've seen many. The thing is that those roofs were supported by heavy steel girders (at times even parts of railroad track) that were not in the concrete but under it. (For those who can read Finnish: yle.fi/aihe/artikkeli/2014/09/29/helsinkia-kiertaa-1-maailmansodan-linnoitusketju-katso-kartta )
If the Russians used Chinese labour to build their trench system, they were far from alone. The British and French did the same. Look up the Chinese Labour Corps. 流芳百世!
Wonder where it goes: suomenmuseotonline.fi/fi/kuva/Rakennushistorian+osasto/mustavuori_i-13_12-p.jpg There are many caves connected to those fortifications.
What's not likely about it? The Russian empire wasn't a paradise by far, but they didn't treat even their prisoners like the Soviets did; and in this case those Chinese were actually hired workers
"You should probably read up on the institution of serfdom before making such claims" -- There is a big difference between serfdom and slave labor to be murdered later, as under Soviets. Perhaps you need to read up on it. Since my blood boils when I read millennial video gamers and their defense of murderous Soviet regime, I will permanently mute you now.
More a case of of the officers shitting themselves at the prospect of loosing their machine guns and the punishment that would follow. It's a shame because they where reputedly the best trained gunners in the world during the early part of the war. If only they had used them more aggressively.
The machine guns were considered to be a support weapon , large heavy difficult to move, take time to set up and need a lot of logistical supply of ammunition to be effective. Mounted far back they have the range to cover the front line, and widest possible feild of fire, so your troops duck under cover and the guns sweep over the top. If the front line falls the guns then cover the retreat and next line. Also from that distance you have the best chance of Enfilade fire. Look at later fortifications , the same concepts apply, easy to criticise with 100% hind sight.
I think that the little cubby hole in the wall is a grenade sump, I remember going over fight position plans of the current US Army and they always suggest digging a 3 foot deep by 9 inch wide or so hole deeper than the floor of your fighting position to chuck any hand grenades into if they happen to find their way inside. Of course that's just my guess it could be to store your vodka and borscht in.
I doubt it. If it had been built maybe 2 years later then possibly. Hand grenades weren't widely used at the beginning of the war. It wasnt until around 1916 that they really became common. Yes they still had and used hand grenades but not nearly enough integrating when they were a rare threat
ammunition magazine for the machine gun i'm guessing
Or kvass and mayonez.
The Imperial Russians had more experience than most in trench warfare at the beginning of the war thanks to the extensive use of it in the Russo-Japanese war ten years earlier. Despite losing that war as well they learnt many lessons from it which would prove useful but as it ended up not decisively so.
Spent my childhood in those trenches playing war in the "Puotinkylä" region marked on the map :) Oh and those trenches are not "just outside of Helsinki", they're in Helsinki - don't know if those regions were parts of Helsinki in 1917 though. Of course some of them are outside too.
Helsinki is so much fun to say. Helsinki!
The scallop was probably to take the front tripod leg of the MG. It would have allowed them to move the pivot of the gun closer to the firing port, resulting in a wider field of fire.
That's what I was thinking. Also, because they used water-jacketed MGs, that scallop might be some kind of extra space for a fortress mount which allows the MG to be pulled inside in case of heavy barrage (pull back and down via a rail in the mount).
Not sure if that is the case in this, but I've seen similar "contraptions" :)
Interesting comments
This wasn't mentioned in the video and although it might not be the case in that location, an interesting fact is that many of those trenches are actually cut into bedrock. That's because most of the hills around Helsinki, and in the southern Finland in general, are actually bedrock formations. So if you wanted to fortify a position with good view and fields of fire you had to cut rock to make them. I'd imagine that those were some of the most durable field fortification of the war.
Also those trenches actually did see a little bit of action. When the Germans invaded Finland in 1918 to help the white counterrevolutionaries there was some fighting between them and the reds defending Helsinki that took place in those fortifications. I know there was a was small battle in Leppävaara (Alberga in the map shown in the video). Of course the reds, who were basically militia with little to no training, didn't fair well against the veterans of the German division.
There are a few places where the trenches have been restored, and some of the artillery positions are almost fully intact. Also I remember going into what probably was a storage cave from that time period in Espoo about 15 years ago. When I lived there there were trenches and a couple of what I think were pretty intact shelters (they had roofs and locked doors) in my back yard.
All this belongs to a very large system of fortifications and numerous coastal artillery batteries that, in addition to Helsinki, also encompasses the city of Tallinn on the south shore of the Gulf of Finland and numerous islands inbetween. The aim of the fortress was to block any naval assault on St. Petersburg, then capital of Russian Empire ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_the_Great%27s_Naval_Fortress ). Some parts of the fortress are also remain and are accessible for visiting in Estonia.
Regarding the rumor that Chinese laborers were used to construct the trench, I saw a couple of quick clips that looked like they were Chinese trees of Heaven. At least in America wherever the Chinese stayed for a while they would plant these trees they look kind of like an extremely large fern. I'm guessing that they would have followed the same tradition in other countries. Really enjoy these videos. History forgotten is history repeated.
I think what you're seeing is en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbus, it's indigenous to Finland and grows pretty much everywhere.
Nice to see Carl joining in for this type of content. :)
Apparently the roofs have caved in because the bunkers were dynamited after the war(s). All that iron and steel was too valuable left lying in the fortifications.
That happned a lot in Europe as well. Valuable scrap , and just in the way.
Early fortifications had wooden roofs later they made all concrete shelters. And its true that russians bring chinese workers to work here because all finnish are producing material to imperial army in factories around capital area. But in Helsinki area there are fortifications from Napoleonic wars via Krimean war to modern times. Inc. parts of Pjotr-pavel sea fortificatios with functional restored 12" guns. And after I ww civilians stole everything valuable from those trenches.
This is very cool. My mother grew up near one of these trenches, they had a house around what's marked "Alberga" on the map. She told me stories about them and of course, the chinese builders were involved as well. Though she was born in the 50's, so it was all second hand information as well. But I imagine the trenches were in a much better shape 50 years ago than they are now. Also, I believe they used some parts of those installations in WW2 as part of the air defense ring around Helsinki.
Some of the bunkers were collapsed on purpose to prevent hazards (as they were in pretty bad shape after 50 years of no looking after) when eastern suburban areas of Helsinki were built (IIRC)
Also vagrants were living in them.
@@paliggae yeah no doubt. back in early 90's there were hobos living in the forests, I guess that isn't very common anymore.
When I see fortifications like these overgrown with forestry, I have to wonder what the sight lines were like when they were built; the land had to have been almost bare of trees.
I walked the seige lines at Vicksburg a while back, and while the woods were beautiful, I just couldn't get the sense of facing cannon in the opposing lines less than a hundred yards away. Surviving photos showed the landscape to be barren. I wish the park management had maintained the terrain as grassland.
4:50 I once heard(I don’t remember from where) that these cutouts in the wall were places for the trench’s garrison to store their excess ammunition, weapons, etc.. If they ever had to evacuate the trench they could leave the gear behind and cover up the opening with a concrete block so it would look like part of the wall to avoid the enemies from capturing the left behind supplies and if they ever recaptured the trench they could remove the concrete block and get all of their supplies back. (I Don’t know how true this is but it’s interesting to consider)
Love the videos of the historic military fortifications and infrastructure. Please keep them coming.
It is quite possible that the Chinese were contract labour. Britian used a lot of contract Chinese labour, The Chinese Labour Corp, there is a Chineses war cemetetry in France. In WW2 however a great deal of the Atlantic Wall was built by Russian POW's. That is a whole story on par with the Concentration Camps. Though the German's wern't picky, political prisoners,and forced labour from Occupied countries were included.
Nice to see some totally unknown part of the war! However I do have to disagree about these being some of the only permanent trenches of the first word war. If you visit the Italian, also named the Isonzo front, you'll see trenches and fortifications that were used for most of the war, completly fashioned in concrete or stone. Most of the front barely moved here for three years, so there was ample time to costruct a permanent fortification network. Very interesting to visit, I do have contacts to arrange a tour if you or anybody else is interested. Some of these are very well preserved due to them being made of stone and rock and sometimes even just cut into the mountains.
I live in Kotka, about an hour's ride eastwards from Helsinki, the woods here are filled with old Russian trenches from this period, mostly around Fort Kymi and mostly in very poor condition, they're little more than shallow ditches at this point, but I have a lot of fond memories of exploring them as a kid.
I live in a area of Helsinki where there are quite a bit of these trenches. Sometimes its just fun to go in them and just look at the old structures.
Actually a very good construction. With those bunkers, fighting positions, lower walking area, and machine gun...basically bunker positions, that would be rather comfortable compared to other trenches.
That was my first thought too- a grenade sump. It looks deep enough. And it's slightly behind the fighting position, for noise and frag reasons. It was probably lined with some dirt as well, to cut down on blast damage to the interior concrete.
I love these kinds of videos, please keep them up
My guess about the big hole in the wall is ammo storage to prevent sympathetic detonations and prevent water from getting to it.
Dear Karl and Ian, please show what is allowed about the civilian underground shelters of modern Finland
Whoa, that is an incredible find. You can see how they zig-zag the trench to deflect explosives going off in the trench... Those zigs just make it feel that much more claustrophobic when you have your head down... no thanks!
To feel claustrophobic you have to be alive. The zig zag not only limited blast travel it allowed sections to sealed off if the enemy got in. Better when attacking not to actually enter the system, run above it and shoot down at the milling mass below.
I think these where largely build to defend from Sweden. Sweden remained neutralish in the war, but when UK tried to rope them in, they warned that if forced to enter the war, they would NOT be on the side of Russia (ie Allies).
No, they were built in case of German invasion of Finland. Russians had realised after the war against Japan that their navy sucked and couldn't be trusted alone to defend St. Petersburg, their capital. St. Petersburg was really near the Finnish coast, so they needed something to beef up defences in Finland when WWI began. Russia at the time wasn't really concerned about Sweden.
"Sweden warned that if forced to enter the war, they would NOT be on the side of Russia (ie Allies)."
Source?
Concrete seems like a good idea for structural integrity but I would think it would absorb shrapnel like wood or sandbags. Plus with wood and concrete the material becomes projectiles when hit with shells.
That moment when you confuse an In Range video with a Great War video .
. .
According to Finnish national broadcasting company's archives there were 3000 Chinese workers in Helsinki between 1914 and 1916.
Also over 100 000 people worked at some point on the fortifications. Russia was worried about the Baltic security and St. Petersburg after they lost their Baltic fleet to Japan in 1905.
yle.fi/elavaarkisto/kuvat/2014/img106297-previewImage.jpg a picture of Chinese workers in Helsinki 1914
I'm glad to see Karl getting to enjoy some WWI trench goodness too.
I can’t wait for their WW3 battlefield tours!
the game Fallout
That cutout looked like a place they would make fires.
Thanks Ian & Karl!
Great video
I do enjoy these historical videos! Thanks guys :)
I believe that some of these trenches saw actual use in 1917; a German detachment was sent to help the Finnish White Army against the Reds (finns and some russians) in the Finnish War of Independence/Civil War and some reds took positions in the trenches around Leppävaara. Their training and leadership being quite amateurish, the Germans drove them out after a short fight.
Very interesting. Thank you both for sharing this.
This is my favorite Karl haircut of all of them. It's also pretty cool to see Russian trenches for once too.
Two thumbs up--- I did not know about these --- GET INDIE NIDEL on the Bat-phone
That's a sturdy looking trench. Any idea how thick the concrete is? Maybe its more resistant to damage from artillary than dirtbags or wicker. Was the ground paved as well? I'm sure it would have been nice not to slosh around in mud, was there any sort of drainage system?
Most of those trenches are actually cut into bedrock. Often the concrete is there only to smooth out the sides. I suppose the shock waves would have been a bigger threat in a trench like that than in a trench where the softer soil would absorb more of the blast.
There are also drain channels in those trenches. Well, in some of them.
Here we are, over 100 years later and seems that they've forgotten how to build trenches.
Who the hell gave 5 thumbs down? Idiots! It was a great video!
There's always someone.
0:20 I hope there will also be a video dedicated to the french trenches.
CZcams is the new history channel thanks to groups like you guys, othius and Maye, the Great War crew etc.
thank you for it!
No this is real. Not the aliens.
Great video!
I feel like these trenches would be a shrapnel nightmare for the defending soldiers...
Glad to see Karl in the frame!
When did you film this? I had not heard of any new travels that both of you took to Finland. I remember that you went to Verustaleka a while ago, did you film this then?
I can only imagine what those soldiers went through while being in those trenches
Later on, daily lectures from a Bolshevik cadre? 😜 Seriously, what about those Chinese labourers?! Where did they end up? Did any of them make it home?
Not much, as they never really got there... Except for reds during the Finnish civil war. They fought (very inefficiently) against the Germans in Alberga for a short while before (very unwisely) retreating inside Helsinki (to be utterly defeated).
Luke Bunyip, rumor is they did not make home, though that is just local rumor.
Nothing happened in these trenches. They were made because Russians expected German naval invasion in Helsinki, which never happened. So these trenches never saw combat. These trenches were destroyed after the war as Finland gained indepandance.
wow this is crazy awesome
@4:26 how does the concrete roof go missing?
Who ever did all the work, that's a massive civil engineering effort for an attack that never came.
Sar Jim that is one of the problems with fixed fortification lines
Certainly true, although I suppose you need to prepare for then threat you think will happen even if it actually doesn't. The Imperial government would have fallen just as fast if they couldn't stop the Germans in the first years of the war.
Good shit guys kinda wish y'all could have done a collaboration with Ind from the Great War
They are collaborating with him on an upcoming WWII project
Karl and Ian in Helsinki. Does this mean we will be seeing the videos of "Northern Brutality" soon?
Yup!
InRangeTV Awesome!! Been looking forward to it ever since Karl mentioned it on Primary and Secondary.
2:30 actually it actually is. Is it... actually?
acceptable content
Maybe that hole in the wall was for catching ejected casings from the MG???
Not worth it yeah that’s what I thought as well or you toss the empty belts down there
Probably not, if they had Maxim guns in these positions, they eject out the front of the gun, not the side
Probably was for you to chuck a grenade into if one got into the blockhouse. With open trenches you tossed them over the trench walls. But that MG position had a roof.
You have ~2 seconds to find the grenade and shove it down the chute. Grenade fuses still smoked back then, so you'll notice right away one coming at you. Definitely doable.
I'm confused, the angled concrete on the machine gun emplacement seems ass backward. If you think of arrow slits in a castle it's one hundred and eighty degree design. A wide angle at the backside narrowing to a small slit that is nearly in possible to hit or ricochet into or toss a grenade into. Wouldn't the way that is layed out funnel fire into the bunker?
Steve P with archery, the archer can actually shift side-to-side with his feet. With a heavy machine gun, it’s center is fixed on a tripod, so it can pivot but not shoft.
The end of the arrow didn't have to fit outside the wall before firing. Look at medieval gun positions they are based on the Narrow Back wide front design. Also we are seeing these positions naked! In use there was often wooden slats and or sandbags lining the apatures to lessen such problems. Sections of trench were often roofed with wood and had sandbags or erath piled on top to make covered sections. This stuff was and is time consuming and expensive to make, so you have the minimu of fixed works with Feild Works dug in bettween where needed at the time.
I would think that the Russians *really* went hard on this trench network because of their experiences in the Russo-Japanese war
Is there any evidence that these positions might have been used or at least manned during the winter war/WWII?
They were really far away from the front during WWII. Some of the fortified hills were used by anti-aircraft units protecting Helsinki from Soviet terror bombings, but those units didn't really have a need for the trenches.
They saw a bit of action during the Finnish civil war with Red finns defending and Imperial germans attacking.
Now the reds in Helsinki were some of the lower tier troops with no prior combat experience and left the positions prematurely which made the confused germans think they had decided to abandon Helsinki and tried to parade march into the city after that.
A german officer noted that they would be invincible if they had such trench system themselves.
I would recommend that you Visit the Great Patriotic War Victory monument and Museum in Moscow USSR if you get the chance. It is huge! and very interesting. Their hall of Hero's is somber it is where their version of our Metal of Honor are given out. The Museum has a huge pile of captured Nazi battle flags and many displays. Interestingly the only US M1 rifle shown is in about 40 % condition. On display outside is a large dirt and log trench system. Signs show the price in terms of man hours of work and amount of logs needed to make each; Meter of length, firing position, Machine gun point, first aid station, troop shelter etc. There is also a small lake with a sub marine, PT Boat and . A full Armored train including a rail road tie destroying plow is also on display. Next to these displays is the Russian Holocaust museum and monument that could easily be missed if you don't look for it.
Just watched lost battalion then i see this in my feed hhmmmm yall watchin me or something
0:33 is that a mace?
okay, so this is a legit question, as I honestly dont know the answer
I know you turned off ad revenue
but is there still any revenue from those with a youtube red account viewing your content ?
No, there is not.
How did they see anything with all those trees and. Brush🙉
Came for the trench. Stayed for the piles of deer shit.
Did the Finns use these same trenches to defend against the Russians in WWII?
No need. Soviets never got near Helsinki.
There were no concrete trenches further east?
Yes, but they were built at the Finnish-Russian border in the 30's against Soviet aggression - these were made during WWI (most sources state that the work started 1915) to protect Helsinki in case of German forces landing into southern Finland.
I believe that some trenches saw actual use in 1917; a German detachment was sent to help the Finnish White Army against the Reds (finns and russian) in the Finnish War of Independence/Civil War and some reds took positions in the trenches around Leppävaara. Their training and leadership being quite amateurish, the Germans drove them out after a short fight.
Actually ;)
The Italians during ww1 had trenches made of stone
In parts of France, where the ground is rock the defenses were breastworks built up of local material, and constructed shelters, mostly known as Pill Boxes at the time.. Only a small part of the Great War was mud and blood of the Western Front.
Some were made out of rocks and boulders in the Alps , but this one in Finland is quite unusual to have a straight concrete wall
Actually overload.
Nice music at the beginning!
Yes indeed! God Save the Tsar... a.k.a. Me!
I have been there where you are right now
Are you guys still doing the thing with Indy and the crew?
No. Video coming Tuesday.
Why people always throw junk into bunkers?
Some hobos used to live there.Kids also go there to hangout because it's something weird and exiting for them.
Maybe i have missed something in the video, but to me it looks like this concrete is missing its steel reinforcment? (maybe a reson why the bunker roofs collapsed)
Local people stripped off the steel after the war. All that steel was very valuable in a poor country like newly independent Finland. Bunker roofs are gone because they were blown up to gain access to the steel within them.
Usually Steel is inside the concrete, the concrete parts in the video are so large, that the steel "harvest" of them doesn't look that plausible. You would have to blast it to pieces that are smaller than the net of steel rods. And there are no cutting marks of steel rods coming out of the walls either who would have been cut of right there. (or the walls would have been blown up too. I'm not doubting that there were bunkers who were blown up, but the one they showed doesn't look like that to me. (more like someone was short of steel building this bunker and trenches, and that's why they are still there -> no stell in there)
Small bunkers with roofs like that were all blown up after the war. They all look more or less the same, I've seen many. The thing is that those roofs were supported by heavy steel girders (at times even parts of railroad track) that were not in the concrete but under it.
(For those who can read Finnish: yle.fi/aihe/artikkeli/2014/09/29/helsinkia-kiertaa-1-maailmansodan-linnoitusketju-katso-kartta )
If the Russians used Chinese labour to build their trench system, they were far from alone. The British and French did the same. Look up the Chinese Labour Corps. 流芳百世!
Oh look, a hole in the ground!
Wonder where it goes: suomenmuseotonline.fi/fi/kuva/Rakennushistorian+osasto/mustavuori_i-13_12-p.jpg
There are many caves connected to those fortifications.
"When war broke out"
I think you mean when "war were declared"
An imperial power actually paying for labour? Not impossible, but not likely either. ;)
Hey, you can always print more rubles.
What's not likely about it? The Russian empire wasn't a paradise by far, but they didn't treat even their prisoners like the Soviets did; and in this case those Chinese were actually hired workers
You should probably read up on the institution of serfdom before making such claims, just as a very quick and easy counter-example.
"You should probably read up on the institution of serfdom before making such claims" -- There is a big difference between serfdom and slave labor to be murdered later, as under Soviets. Perhaps you need to read up on it. Since my blood boils when I read millennial video gamers and their defense of murderous Soviet regime, I will permanently mute you now.
Tobasco da Gama Since you are making claims like this you, should know that serfdom in Russia was abolished in 1861
War were declared!
Russian trench system
Or lack thereof it seems
There used to be airsoft games being held in those trenches
Machine guns 750m back...
Defense in depth.
More a case of of the officers shitting themselves at the prospect of loosing their machine guns and the punishment that would follow. It's a shame because they where reputedly the best trained gunners in the world during the early part of the war. If only they had used them more aggressively.
The machine guns were considered to be a support weapon , large heavy difficult to move, take time to set up and need a lot of logistical supply of ammunition to be effective. Mounted far back they have the range to cover the front line, and widest possible feild of fire, so your troops duck under cover and the guns sweep over the top. If the front line falls the guns then cover the retreat and next line. Also from that distance you have the best chance of Enfilade fire. Look at later fortifications , the same concepts apply, easy to criticise with 100% hind sight.
Just heard God Save the Tsar and my heart stopped...
[Torille intesifies.]
Helsingin maalaiskunnan torille!
Something similar in Italy en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadorna_Line