Repertoire: The IDEAL Haydn "Paris" Symphonies
Vložit
- čas přidán 28. 08. 2024
- There may be only six of them (Nos. 82-87), as opposed to the twelve "London" Symphonies, but the "Paris" Symphonies are just as rich and varied, and just as epoch-making historically. These were, in a very real sense, the first important set of "public" symphonies, designed for a large orchestra performing before a large audience, and as such they mark a new stage in the medium's evolution. Here is my ideal list of all six.
Found the Sanderling recordings on Eterna vinyl in a local second hand shop. Love them!
Just wanna say: it's wonderful to see you talk about Haydn's music. You love it so much we can't wait to listen to it!
Thank you!
Agree! Need more on his string quartets, please!
17:35 I cheered when you said "Bernstein!!" The Paris recordings by Bernstein is one of the reasons I got so hooked on Haydn, and no. 87 is my favourite in this set. So overlooked.
Bernstein's LONDON SYMPHONIES set ain't bad, either !
Thank you Mr Hurwitz for another great talk.
Now I think we are all waiting for the ideal Mahler and Bruckner symphony cycles.
And the Bruckner 8 and 9 individually!
I just acquired the Kuijken set of these: I think it very convincing. Good balances, nicely prominent horns, use of harpsichord, good tempi (not too fast or too slow) and he does ALL the repeats.
Boring, grey, small-scale, uninteresting--so lacking in color and weight. I guess you figured out that I dislike these performances.
My favorite of these 6 is #86 as well, although the first two are essentially just as enjoyable for me. I’ll never get sick of these Haydn talks.
I have just discovered your channel and I am in heaven!!! So informed and so entertaining, and going to be very bad for my bank account...... I have only started to take real joy in Haydn in the last 10 years or so, and the exploration is proving to be wonderful. Coincidentally when I was reading music for my degree my adviser was the world's foremost Haydn expert after Robbins Landon (Edward Olleson) but, alas, he was unable to communicate his enthusiasm to a 20 year old more into Romantic and 20th century music. I just wanted to add my vote for the Ansermet set of the Paris symphonies which I have in gorgeous early Decca pressings. I know I am in a minority here, but I just love these performances (reedy Swiss oboe and all) and the sound on LP is fantastic.
Thank you for watching, and especially for your comments about Haydn.
The biggest effect you videos have had on me, Dave, is an increased appreciation of Haydn. Of course, I've always loved his music. But I hadn't explored it in sufficient depth. What joy it provides me! I've also gained in admiration of his extremely enlightened employer. Thanks, Prince Nick. Of course, none of us can be another Haydn. But we can all be, in some small way, another Esterházy. In fact, we all have to do our part to keep this music alive. Its future is not guaranteed. It has to be worked and fought for. So Dave, you keep going backwards through the symphonies, I'll keep going forwards through them, and we'll meet around No. 52 or so. Take care.
Thank you. I will do my best!
@@DavesClassicalGuide I'm in agreement with John Montanari. And I hope you get to the Haydn Piano Trios at some point--there's some great stuff in there.
John, “joy” really is the perfect noun for Haydn. I’ve always thought so, as recently as today as I listened to Dorati in #84. Dave, I can’t wait for your take on Creation performances. Don’t forget Forster with the sublime Grummer!
Likewise, I really enjoy the Haydn videos. Symphony 86 must be the only occasion where Largo and Capriccio appear together.
82: Karajan
83: Harnoncourt
84: A. Fischer
85: Ansermet
86: Davis
87: Marriner
I recently bought a Sandor Vegh's box set (Japanese edition) that gathered all of his orfeo live recordings. It looks like a cheap, bargain box set with a poor booklet and white paper covers, but the music inside is just great. And it includes 9 or 10 Haydn symphonies conducted by Vegh. They quickly became one of my favorite Haydn performance, but it seemed like nobody talks about it! Even David didn't mention any of them in his Haydn videos, nor any comments! So I thought maybe it's just my personal thing when no one really cares about them. I was wrong! It was a pleasant surprise when you mentioned Vegh's 'La Reine' in this video. Truly beautiful performance, as with other great ones you mentioned!
Thank you for this and all your wonderful reviews. I always listen to your reviews during my morning workouts. I get fit, educated, and entertained all at the same time, thanks to you. Regarding Symphony 86, I wish to strongly recommend Bruno Walter's of the late 1930s. Okay, the sound isn't terrific, but Walter was a wonderful Haydn conductor. Have you heard this one? Anyway, keep on listening!
Good news - the Sanderling set is available (cheaply) on iTunes and 7digital.
What a great presentation ! Such happy enthusiasm and knowledge. Your stressing the bigness and scale of these symphonies is absolutely spot on. Wasn’t that a response to Haydn finding he had at his disposal in Paris an orchestra of unimagined size, with a string section bigger than many a whole orchestra that he was used to. Haydn must have been trilled to exploit the possibilities of the range and power that that offered.
Thomas Fey is an odd choice, David, for 84, as I believe this symphony absolutely proves your 'vibrato,' case, hands down. It simply doesn't work without a full texture for that marvellous tune in the first movement. Nor indeed in the second movement, or the finale. Fey does his best, or, the orchestra does, but it sounds at times like a metallurgy class! I do enjoy Fey's fire and humour, though.
The recording through which I got to know this symphony was Bernstein's, which is a trifle mushy, but infinitely more sympathetic, I feel!
The Bernstein Paris symphonies are revelatory! Everything you say is true about Haydn. These symphonies are for big orchestras! They are romantic! The slow movements of 86 and 87 are wanderings through changing picturesque landscapes, like Gainsborough, or scenes in Mrs Radcliffe. I’ve been doing a lot of research into 18thc things and one thing that stands out is that the romantic starts fifty years earlier! The word is used of landscapes in the 1740s! The “classical” is also “romantic.” The mid 18thc love of Ancient Greece included a back to nature desire - to make gardens natural and travel to wild places. We have to get out of the Victorian attitude to the 18thc which they didn’t understand - or thought was a bit wild and naughty.
Well said, and very true!
With a degree in early modern history I couldn't agree more. The 18th century is the most caricatured of all centuries in the modern mind...and the Victorians have a lot to answer for! Not a period of dry rationality to be overcome by the likes of the romantic poets...flogging that old dead horse: (think Dryden Vs. Wordsworth) Just stick a (usually bad) powdered wig on it and an occasional prancing minuet that is enough for the movies. The 18th century was dynamic, and changed immensely as it went along. I have to say that in musical pigeon-holing both Schubert (5th Symphony) and Mendelssohn (Italian Symphony minuet) share some of that stereotyping urge which set in early.
@@duncanmckeown1292 as far back as 1740 travellers were exploring wild landscapes and discovering that glaciers and forests were part of the music of nature. A revelation for me was that they didn’t think of writing music about such things because the idea of music helped them see nature - they saw nature in terms of music - Handel concerti grossi for example.
About 86: it's like walking through a sculpture garden at various times of a day. So vivid and true!
An excellent "big band" alternative to Karajan in Symphony No. 82, if you can find it, is Colin Davis and the Concertgebouw, a pairing of Nos. 82 and 83 on Philips - comparable orchestral sound-scale but not as hard-edged and blunt as Karajan. Also, I think Davis sounds more attuned to Haydn's dance rhythms.
Thanks David for following up the Londoners with the Parisiens.
I have the Menuhin set on EMI, which is elegant but doesn't rise to the level of these performances. I agree with you on the superiority of no. 86, which ought to be called "Le Roi." I had completely ignored the Karajan set after finding his London set too schwer. The BPOs playing of no. 86 is absolutely transparent.
BTW, Decca has reissued the Monteux/VPO/Decca recording of nos. 94 and 101. He gets my vote over Sir Thomas for best "Clock" symphony. Beecham really runs the slow movement into the ground.
The whole Sanderling set is on CZcams.
And now for something completely different ...
82: Thomas Fey
83: Adam Fischer
84: Sigiswald Kuijken
85: Bruno Weil/Tafelmusik
86: Frans Brüggen
87: Tel-Aviv Soloists Ensemble
Absolutely agree that number 86 is the best. And not just of the Paris Symphonies, but of any symphony - a truly astonishing work. I think that only number 103 rivals it in terms of originality, drama and creative power.
Dave - greetings from the Penal Colonies. Thanks for the thread. Here are my nominations.
82 - yes, Karajan with those trumpets in the finale. Mind you, I could so easily nominate him in the other 5 symphonies, not least H86
83 - Ansermet.
84 - Dorati
85 - Marriner
86 - Bernstein
. What a finale!
87 - Dutoit
Best wishes, B
This is a great list. I love Ansemet's Paris Symphonies and the 'Hen' is the highlight. The 'french' sound definitely suits the music.
Dave, you certainly know your Haydn, and I'm so grateful for how you communicate your enthusiasm for his music. Sometimes I think not enough of the Classical Music listening public realize just how outstanding and groundbreaking the Haydn symphonies are. I'm curious what your opinion is of Ansermet's Paris Symphonies?
I don't think they've held up very well, sadly.
Great David. I have seen many critics saying that Haydn was inspired by folk music to create so many works ... I prefer to consider an obvious conclusion, made by critic Otto Carpeaux, Haydn was the greatest melodist of all time.
I wouldn't say that. I would say he was the most original creator of musical ideas, with the understanding that an "idea" need not necessarily be a melody. That was his greatest achievement--expanding the range of what the subject of musical discourse could be. Melody was only one part of the equation.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I agree with you. I just said that Haydn was also a genius of great melodies.
I first bought the Bernstein set of Haydn Paris symphonies back in the 1960's when they first came out. I had no idea how great they were. If you want to save money, you can skip all the other recommendations and just buy Bernstein. Other great Haydn symphonies include no. 81 and the Dorati recording with the London Festival Orchestra can be downloaded for free. To this day, I think Dorati 81 is the greatest Haydn performance I have ever heard.
Definitely feel that if Haydn was alive today, he would also want to see his symphonies played by as big an orchestra as possible, especially this set. "Anaemic" describes many "authentic" performances perfectly. I've always regretted that Colin Davis doesn't seem to have done a complete set of them, unlike the 12 London symphonies, but I do enjoy his 82/83. I was very struck by a lively performance 40 years ago of no.83 by Ivan Fischer who had recently won a young conductor's competition and has deservedly gone on to great things with the Budapest Symphony Orchestra. Sadly I don't think he's recorded many or any Haydn symphonies.
I love the Bear symphony, I think it's one of Haydn's best symphonies. My previous favorites were Fischer (the first one I listened to) and HIPster performances by Brüggen, Weil and Harnoncourt but I agree that Karajan's recording is extremely good and probably better than all of those except maybe Harnoncourt's (and I'm usually not a big Karajan fan). What stood out the most to me were the very powerful bass instrument performances (the bassoon is especially good). The wind perfomances in general are excellent too and not buried at all (as he sometimes does in other music) and the string sound is of course marvelous (but that's a given with Karajan).
You can find the complete Sanderling here on CZcams also
Thanks for the tip! I couldn't find this one on Spotify at first (it's there), but I found it on that Classical Music/ /Reference Recording CZcams channel...and now it will be purchased lol. Holy cow is that a great set of Paris Symphonies!
Hi mr. Hurvitz.
As you know im a big fan of you and haydn.so i thought ,your the man to ask.why haydn never won much greater love ,in the listener's hearts? That he was a genius we all agree...i worked for more than 20 years in a local music company,for universal..the Haydn sales were always poor..even compered to Debussy or ravel..why was that ,ill never figure..but i have my guesses...but im curious al the same to your voice about it...many thanks. Moshe.
I have a theory (nothing more) that, symphony No. 82...being actually the LAST performed...and the "bear" bit being in the finale...was actually a Scottish reference. The commissioning being by freemasons from a freemasonic composer and played by a freemasonic sponsored orchestra! A farewell tipping of the tricorne hat to brotherhood's Caledonian origins.
Any chance you could rate the Mozart's Requiem recordings, I own the Neville Marriner version on Philips and I would be very interested to hear your views on it, (if any). I'm a newcomer to your channel and I enjoy your talk's and get a lot from them. Thanks.
Thanks very much. I won't get to the Requiem for a while. To be honest, I just don't like it very much.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank goodness I am not alone. Can't stand the thing...
@robin_saunders The Kertesz performance is excellent. The actual recording is a bit tubby but you get used to it; it sounds normal to me now.
Did you hear the recordings of the Paris symphonies by 'Le concert de la loge' conducted by Julien Chauvin? (on Aparte) I'ld like to hear your opinion about it.
Have they done all of them yet? I haven't heard them but am curious and wanted to see if they'd get through the whole set.
Hello..
Why are the copies that Bruckner attempted to keep in the Vienna Library not approved as master publications?
If it was found that his approval of the amendments was temporary for one reason or another .. Evidence that he tried to preserve the original copies?
Do you have any ideas?
None. It's stupid and wrong. I just think people are making careers based on the notion that they are smarter than Bruckner was.
Of these I only know Fey, Harnoncourt and Bernstein. I'd probably pick the latter for #86 which is also my favorite of the set and Harnoncourt for #83. I find them almost too weighty for my taste in #87 and also 85. For this and even more for #85 I like Marriner with a chamber orchestra (or Hugh Wolf). Fey is good in 85, though (admittedly, 85 is my least favorite piece of the set...) Brüggen is also pretty good for original instruments whereas I found Kuijken and especially Weil too "thin". #84 is the most underrated piece of the set, I think, Fey is a good choice, again I find my set favs Bernstein and NH a bit on slow and not sufficiently elegant side, it's Paris after all. ;) Probably have to try the Karajan eventually, it sounds like an unlikely surprise.
I happen to have the Bernstein and Harnoncourt and they truly are great. IHMO,I would disagree with Karajan.i have his EMI Haydn recording and it's just not right.
But you don't have his DG set, so I suggest you wait until you hear it.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I'll listen to the EMI performance right now but I am so put off by it that I am not likely to buy/ but I will look to listen via streaming. I just dont HvK at all in Haydn/Mozart SYMPHONIES.
@@frankgyure3154 Not EMI--DG