Why Was There An Archon War? [Genshin Impact Lore Theory]
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- čas přidán 2. 06. 2024
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I always believed that this was Celestia’s way of maintaining control; better dealing with Seven Archons than hundreds. There’s also the possibility that the “New Management “ of Celestia decided to curb any possible future rebellion from Archons teaming up
If we will take what you said into account, then for me it was dumb because by removing 100s of gods and giving their former lands and people to the surviving 7, this granted the 7 a power boost since, if my memory serves me right, it is said that an Archon's power is measured by the Lands and the People he/she rules.
And if this is proven true, then this case in Genshin would parallel the situation of the Roman Empire, later the Byzantine Empire, here in our real history whose Emperors had to carve up their territories into 100s of smaller provinces including their armies as a means to prevent its Governors and Generals from gaining more power that can start a Rebellion or a Civil War.
The best analogy I could think of regarding Celestia and the Seven Archons would be Vought and The Seven from The Boys.
Same thoughts. It would fit with a theme where the current Archons are not opposed to Tsaritsa's plan of persumably bringing Celestia down. A succesion of power that ultimately ends with humans ruling the world. Venti and Zhongli essentially joined the human world at this point marking the start of a new age.
@@kacperwoch4368
That theme kinda falls on Fate Series too especially the Fate/Grand Order game where Humans have outgrowned their need of Deities which ended the Age of Gods and kicked off the Age of Men.
Yeah i whole-heartedly agree that it must’ve been for control, with the addition of having a series of “minions” to enact the will of the divine.
Ok, hear me out… we’ll find out more in Natlan. It wouldn’t be very surprising to me if the literal Pyro Archon, whose ideal is WAR, would know about the biggest war in Genshin.
I hope so. In the Teyvat trailer Dainslief does say that she’ll share a secret with us.
Now that I think about it, how does Dainslief know what we’ll experience during our future journeys? Is the Dainslief we know from the game the same Dainslief that narrates the trailer and character miscellany or do they only share the same VA?
Or maybe it is Dain from the future
@@mvalthegamer2450That's what I was thinking as well because Dainsleif said he was accompanying the Abyss sibling during their journey... but the sibling already finished the journey and is now waiting for the other to do the same and learn the "truths" of that world. Though Dain & the Abyss sibling parted ways before they finished said journey, that still implies that he already saw a lot of what the Traveler is ABOUT to see in the future... maybe i'm completely off lmao but that kinda makes me think that Dain is "from the future" in that way. But we'll see 💀.
@@RenHeng_canon one theory I’ve heard is that we’re are in circle of Samsara much bigger one. That covers whole planet. Our sibling knows the said truth.
What I find interesting is that Neuvillette tells the player that the sovereigns don't have access to their full power as it is being stolen by the archons. Which makes me think that the sovereigns are the source of elemental energy and the archons are just "borrowing" that energy and channeling it into themselves.
I mean, he made it kind of obvious that 7 dragons -> whose power was transformed into 7 gnoses and celestia needed 7 gods to carry them. And if there is such a power like the 7 sovereigns you need only the strongest of the strong to be able to carry it and PROTECT it! That’s why the archon war happened is my opinion…
This also makes me think that the Traveler’s power mirrors the sovereigns and not the archons. I started to think this back in Sumeru when I realized the traveler’s power looked nothing like Nahida’s then when we were introduced to Apep how his power looked similar to her’s. Now that Neuvilette was introduced and seeing how he’s basically an improved traveler and how they can both use each other’s orbs as well kind of convinces me of this.
This doesn't add up. For example, Andrius, Beelzebul, Morax, Marchosias, Osial and Decarbian for example are known for using elemental abilities to great effect without using Gnosis.
Personally I think the Gnosis just gives them extra knowledge/divinity to do things they may not have had the ability to do prior, like for Morax, it may have been milling Mora. For Beur it may have been the Akasha, etc etc. 👍
@@F1ll1nTh3Blanksconsidering how common elemental energy is both in teyvet and in mythology, it's likely that they can use them, it's just the gnosis makes them stronger
Isn't Apep an original Sovereign? I was wondering why Neuv said that all of the original Sovereigns are dead.
I guess there is a possibilty that Celestia didnt actually provoke a war. Maybe it is a sort of metaphor for "there were too many gods and eventually they started clashing for land and resources" since for me it seems that "Archon War" is sorta like a real world term "Fall of Rome" where it is not one conflict, but a bajilion of battles, wars, clashes and skirmishes lumped together under one catch all term
From what I can understand from zhonglis story quest and the history of deshret, this seems very likely. Many of the gods living in teyvats started fighting over land and it only became more vicious when celestia started dangling the offer of the gnoses for the top gods
@@kawansiesquad6659 this will also explain why there where no Archon War in Sumeru - Rukhadevata have already become a dominant god in the region by that point and no outsider dared to test her might. As for gnosis, I believe Celestia started awarding those as a form of official recognition to those that emerged victorious and also as a means of survailance and/or maintaing communication with them. As for Orobashi and other cases of neutrality - it is not consistent that Celestia punished all neutral gods. God of salt was neutral and her death was a result of her own failures, Celestia didnt care. As for Serpent God, it is possible that Celestia forced him to fight and helped Ei kill him not for being neutral, but for reading certain forbidden book, using the caos of the war to kill the god who knew too much without anyone questioning reasons why.
I kinda agree to this theory while also believing celestia had a hand in stoking the fires to devastating heights. It probably wasn’t an all out slaughter hunger games style but conflicts that kept snowballing and ended in an utter decimation of the godly “populace(?)”
@@ToscaTee The only way I think they stoked the fire was by provoking wars that they wanted or needed to happen (Ei vs Orobashi) and making it clear that whoever wins gets the Gnosis and as such would be recognised as a rightfull divine ruler blessed by and supported by Heavenly Principels, and not just y'know a blood-soaked upstart that slaughtered and schemed his/her way to power. Such prospects were, I think, too tempting for many gods, thus forcing them to fight even more ferociously and adding yet another reason to fight aside of practical ones. Considering that Celestia seems very disinclined to act directly such underhanded way of adding fuel to the fire seems very much on-brand for them
As for population of gods, well, I guess neither Celestia nor gods themselves are/were very intetested in maintaing their numbers. Its also quite likely that gods dont even see themselves as belonging to common race or group. I mean, Ei feels far stronger connection to Inazuman people than to, say, Zhong Li or Venti, and vice versa. And Celestial gods probably view themselves as higher beings compared both to humans and demon gods
@@fedorustimenko3057 yeah that’s what i meant lol
Also i didn’t mean populace by its literal terms. I know it’s not accurate i just needed a word to describe the number of gods present in the past. The only common traits gods have are their higher elemental power than other elemental beings (aside from the vishaps) and the desire to rule and “guide” (in their own way) over something, usually humanity. They may all have originated/created by celestia but still not enough to group all godly beings as a “species/race” unlike the seelies.
An important question: How exactly did Celestia intend to enforce the executions and exiles of the gods who were defeated or who refused to participate? Throw a Nail at them, or perhaps a Herald serving as a mediator for the War?
Maybe like what befell Orobashi.
They would curse the god. Orobashi's after he was cursed by Celestia brought a great famine where his people resided basically Celestia was saying, "Either you watch your people suffer and die or you kill yourself and relieve them of their pain"
The victorious Archons themselves might have a hand in enforcing the new order, such as when Orobashi was proscribed by Celestia to die my Ei hand.
@@nothmm8582Celestia is ice cold man, my poor god-snake didn't deserve that.
Maybe simmilar to how orabaci died. Hev someone who do participate in the war execute said demon gods who didnt partake
If theres a god that refuse to oartake in the war in liyue, either Rex or any other contender in the war would execute them
"And I hope that there isn't really big lore drops at that point" Well aren't you in for a surprise 😂
I’m gonna enjoy hearing Asters thoughts on 4.1 lore and main story
There was nothing related to the Archon War tho. Nuevillette did confirm that the Second Thrones won the War against the Heavenly Principals and thata waas it
@@nothmm8582 I FUCKING KNEW IT!
@@nothmm8582 Where was it we found the Sustainer of Heavenly Principles. I wonder if her sending us back was in hopes of us being able to be the ones to overthrow Celestia with our actions.
@@F1ll1nTh3Blanks if she turns out to be a shade this is a highly likely possibility
It's hard to control hundreds of gods.
So Celestia decided, "why not let them kill each other first, to make them fewer."
What if "The Archon War" wasn't Celestia telling all the powerful gods and spirits of Teyvat that they need to have a battle royale? What if it's just the name for the era in history when the gods were the most unstable, with many of them shuffling around for power to one degree or another. Makoto and Morax firmly established themselves, while in Sumeru you had a group of friends that eventually faded away until there was one. Then at the end of the Era Celestia handed down the Gnosis to those that represented their respective element.
I always assumed the archon war was a Hunger Games type of event.
Celestia put the gods as surveillance but after something (maybe K’hanreia) Celestia decided that it would be easier if there were only seven gods to make sure they didn’t go rogue.
Didn't the Archon War happen before the Cataclysm?
Given that the Archons were summoned to deal with it.
@@patrickcarter2829 Ah that's true, K'hanreia probably didn't exist back them. But my theory still stands about the Archon War being an event to have more control over the gods.
@@grecia3146 true. Nahida did mention that the Archon War was a "game."
Honestly, that's a pretty good analogy; like an intense game of musical chairs, with the last seven contestants earning a prize (gnosis).
@@patrickcarter2829were there not also literally seven thrones on Celestia mentioned?
Although none of the Archons seem to go to Celestia.
@patrickcarter2829 stangely enough there are cases of seats being offered to a god who ends up rejecting it,like despite deca being killed by the rebellion (this part is very vague and weird considering that it implies that a group of visionless people+ a not yet ascended barbatos somehow managed to beat an almighty god) andrius was the one who got offered to become the anemo archon who rejected it,going to sumeru it is also very heavily implied that out of the three gods there celestia outright offered the gnosis to deshret who also rejected it and shared his throne with the other two,meaning that it could very well not be a battle to see who gets the chair,but rather who is willing to submit to become celestia's minions(the story of the dendro gnosis implies that getting it stops one from persuading their own ambitions)
I feel that after the second who came, the world was too unstable to sustain life for long, the demon gods helped, they used their power to protect pockets of humanity and life in general but that was always temporary. The archon war was a means of power consolidation, the Gnosis being fragments of what remained of of the primordial ones body and with them 7 archons could tap into the leylines of a 7 regions through the towers and lesser nodes(teleport points) to stabilize those regions with Irminsul acting as the primary system to regulate everything.
Fun fact, the standard definition of an Irminsul reflects that the towers of the seven are, pillars with a figure on top. Also many symbolic depictions of Irminsul have a nail stuck into the top of it representing the seat of power for the one who maintains order, the sustainer of principles.
In his Forbidden Knowledge-afflicted rantings in the Staff of the Scarlet Sands lore tab, King Deshret says that "The cycle of seven must be removed, because the secret narrative will be blocked." That makes me think that at least part of the function of the Seven Archons or Sovereigns is to keep Forbidden Knowledge, or the Abyss more generally, from leaking into the world. Wonder if that has anything to do with current happenings in Fontaine...
Updated:
Nevillete confirmed theory that each gnosis contains power of Dargons extracted by Primordial One.
Upadated 2: Dragon will be limited with its power, unless Archon with the same power perished, or refuse to use and keep gnosis for itself
I feel like we will get crazy lore in Natlan
*Thoughts before watching:*
We know the Archons are 'demon' gods. Therefore the other 'demon gods' who fought in the Archon War were never and to never be made alike to the humankind we see in Genshin. Unfortunately we are seeing the rise of the Second 'Archon War' with the allogene system. (See thoughts after watching below).
*Thoughts after watching:*
I believe the Archon war was a competition for who could kill the Seven Sovereigns and steal their elemental energy to be contained within a 'Gnosis' as described by Celestia. Therefore unto the allogenes of today, the old gods of the past are very much similar. During the final act of Genshin Impact, once the 'thrones have been engulfed by the abyss' there will be a requirement for 7 new replacements in order to stabilize the world structure of Teyvat.
Thereunto the allogenes of today, we may see them fight each other, for this dominion, scrabble and quarrel over a petty Gnosis; and we the viewers may think this is a valid approach while forgetting that Celestia is an enigmatic dominion and the nature of it's leader, unrevealed. There is no true God in this game, there is only Paimon (time) and Asmoday (the Sustainer; space). I also theorize that Paimon is Istaroth in disguise. The demon gods are liars through their teeth.
The Pale Princess and the Six Pygmies accounts the betrayal of the Archons, save perhaps Nahida (or Tsaritsa/Sibling?) who slumbered for very long. Think about how many hours you waste on Genshin Impact, slaving away your precious time to Paimon, a demon in disguise. Demons can take any form necessary to their goals, therefore be wise. This Paimon character may seem innocent but may be closely interlinked with Asmoday and thus we need to remember that the entire structure of Teyvat is an illusion save for whatever's beyond the moon and abyss, the stars and heavens above, that's the truth that has remained unrevealed.
These 'gods' are just a system for Celestia to exert it's control over Teyvat and that's why the Fatui and the Abyss are so opposed to the rulership of the gods. They stole the hearts of the original Seven Sovereigns and likely destroyed or threw the Primordial One, or the One before the Primordial One, into the Abyss. Who knows what lurks in the Abyss below, or the heavens above?
I don't think it's just surveillance, I think it's more than that. The vision holders are already the eyes of Celestia, so having Celestia appoint elemental being-humanoid fusions to rule over the world is their way of exerting control and misdirecting the worship of the people towards the lesser demon gods rather than the true god of Teyvat, which is an imaginary world, is itself likely the maker of the Seven Sovereigns, and that is the one that the people of Teyvat needs to seek. However, that old world is lost to the Abyss, which is why the Seven Archons are a necessity for Celestia to distract people and continue their confusion.
I also agree with your point that the preservation of leyline energy necessitates the construction of the Archon system, and by testing their ambitions in warfare - is somewhat of a fair practice, however I must warn you, are the allogenes causing a problem? Why did Ei enact the Vision hunt decree, was her true ambition to silence the elemental energy of her people to hoard it for herself? We see so much demonstration of divine authority and elemental power in the Inazuma arc, and that energy is consolidated in the Scaramouche plot in Sumeru. So yes, they are puppets, they are just vessels to limit and regulate the leylines.
So in concluding, I agree that the Archons exist to fill the roles of the Seven Sovereigns but it is a thieving system. The power of Teyvat should be granted to the Original One, before the Primordial One, whoever engineered Teyvat is the creator of the Sovereigns, therefore, all these false gods and illusions are so troublesome and the human forms of the demon gods are limited by their 'contracts'.
Yeah I believe the 'future Archon quests' are not going to be pretty.
The point you have about a 'Second Archon War' is interesting, but I think you're jumping to one too many conclusions about the nature of the demon gods in Genshin.
For starters, Paimon's allegiance or identity isn't confirmed. It's highly likely she's from Celestia, but so far she doesn't seem to have any memories, and her allegiance is with the Traveler, who is set against Celestia and their Heavenly Principles. Also, I don't think she's Istaroth, mainly because Paimon and Istaroth are inspired by two separate demon names, and I feel like the 'true name' of a god would be important enough that gods wouldn't just slap aliases with those names.
Secondly, the demon gods aren't 'liars'. They perpetuate the systems of Celestia because they don't have a choice in the matter, Celestia forced the Archon War upon them and effectively gave them a 'serve or die' ultimatum. Most of them don't like Celestia- why else would they not give a shit if the Gnosis gets stolen? They probably never wanted it in the first place. And, the demon gods left in Teyvat today care more for their own people than Celestia's objectives. (Also, the demon gods probably aren't demonic in nature, because actual demons exist in Genshin. So far, the demon gods are just seen to be a lesser form of divinity).
As for your meta point on 'slaving away your precious time to Paimon'...buddy, you're pulling a Matpat here- Genshin's a gacha game they uh...kinda need you to do that for profit...Plus we have no clue what the Pale Princess book is even talking about. And even then, the events it documents are likely of a pre-history erased by Irmuinsul rather than a prophecy of a betrayal by the Archons. (Plus, the current Archons aren't nefarious in any way, with many of them wanting nothing to do with Celestia and working with the Traveler, and above all, looking out for the well-being of their nations).
As for Ei enacting the vision hunt decree? If her intention was to accumulate power, then, why stop the vision hunt decree? If she had any ulterior motive, she would've pressed on. Ei believed the vision hunt decree was helping Inazuma, and only by proving her wrong were we able to stop it. If she had selfish reasons, she would've ignored Miko and Traveler and simply continued- not like they could do anything about it. If Ei went all out, neither Miko nor the Traveler, even with the blessing of 100 visions, would stand a chance.
As for the point about the Archons just being an extension of Celestia's authority- yeah that's likely true, but the Fatui moreso have a problem with Celestia, not the Archons, whereas the Abyss just loathes divinity in general. Both the Fatui and The Abyss will admit the gods are actually divinity, and considering divine energy is something that can be interacted with in Teyvat, they would know if the gods weren't actually gods.
Also, we have no clue on whether or not someone created the world before Phanes showed up-, and actually fun fact, some translations imply Phanes already had a claim on the world before its appearance to fight Sovereigns. But at large, we don't know if there was a creator entity before Phanes showed up, and even if there was, it's important to remember humans are the creation of Phanes. If power was restored to The Sovereigns and whatever god came before them, do you think it'll end well for humans? Apep had no moral problems with destroying Teyvat, just stopped because she felt like it wouldn't accomplish anything.
To summarize my points into a tld;r: The demon gods aren't demonic in nature, and don't seem to be doing the whole misleading shtick regular demons do. Honestly, they're just kinda trying their best to sort through the utter mess that is Teyvat and keeping their people safe. A single obscure book and IRL inspirations of Gnosticsm isn't really a reason to consider them evil. Their actions have explanations rooted in the well-being of their nation as opposed to any selfish reasons that don't consider the people. Also, you're kinda going out on a limb at some parts, with the meta-Paimon commentary, and the idea that there was a god before even the Sovereigns, and that power should be returned to said god, even though such an event would likely result in the destruction of humanity. I don't think we'll see the Sovereigns restored to power either, mainly because most of them would use that power to enact their own ideals instead of protecting humanity
One final thing I feel the need to point out about your analysis on the demon gods; you're focusing a bit too much on Genshin's inspirations and/or looking at the greater narrative without looking at the characters themselves. If we look at the Archons from a Gnostic perspective, then they would be evil because they distract humanity and keep them imprisoned in the material plane and under the thumb of entities that seek to claim themselves as the 'true god'. But, if we look at the archons as they are presented as characters in the story, we have gods trying their best to aid humanity, despite their own flaws.
@@radiantbunny I have not played a Hoyoverse game since June so I'm out of touch but I'm following this world at a distance. This game is a gacha game and I've regrettably spent a ridiculous amount of money on it. I've wasted all my time. I could have been doing things better. Investing in myself. Nonetheless I like your rebuttal commentary and I read it in full. May peace be upon your journey and your fate in Teyvat, prosperous.
@@radiantbunnyah thank you, thank you so much. beautifully and logically written. i feel like the OP wrote that comment with pure bias from their bad experiences with genshin so it just spiralled down into more and more huge of a stretch.
paimon being istaroth has been debunked A LONG time ago. not only she doesn’t actually control the time but paimon and istaroth(astaroth in ars goetia) is two different demon and like you said, why bother have two entities’ identities overlap each other two combine it into one? if people wanna reach that far, they might as well say paimon is actually the primordial one 🤷🏻♀️ islandxd made a thorough video on that theory and tbh i think that’s a possibility though it still has some clashes with other facts.
we discovered from one of the world quest that paimon has a string attached to her that goes up to beyond the sky itself which means beyond the firmament. celestia still can be seen inside the firmament. so whatever “controlling” her must have been beyond this world. however, we also know the theory that teyvat is actually upside down. if that’s the case, wouldn’t it be logical to say abyss is currently at the top side?
if paimon is actually the best travel guide and companion like she always claim she is, it makes sense as well if she’s being tasked to guide us(who knows by whom) in order to ascend to the throne above. the traveler supposed to be ascending to the throne above if he/she is proven worthy. which is why paimon always control us when we try to go out of the bound since she needs to make sure that we stay on the “set” path. paimon is very devoted to lucifer and it has been theorized that traveler is actually the lucifer though there hasn’t been much confirmation to that.
Theory: Celestia DOESN’T need the archons. It just needs the Gnoses to be kept away from the dragon sovereigns. Otherwise it would have done something about the fact that 4 archons no longer have their gnoses.
The archons themselves are entirely unimportant to celestia. They’re just bodies filling positions. Their only role is to keep the Gnoses intact so that the dragons don’t regain their authority over each element. (Hency why Nahida theorizes that the sustainer would only wake up if a gnosis was destroyed.) And they chose the archons based on who would be the easiest to work with for that purpose. Ideally someone who has the best intentions for humanity, since they’re the least likely to let their civilizations get destroyed. They have an inherent reason to oppose the dragon sovereigns. Which fits perfectly with Celestia’s plan to keep them subdued.
As for where they come from: probably the elements. They have inherent control over elements, like dragons do. Only less control than the elemental dragon sovereign of each region. My guess is they’re similar in nature to the elemental beings we meet in Nahida’s second story quest related to Apep. So the demon gods are more closely related to the dragon sovereigns than they are to the Primordial One. And it’s likely that they formed naturally from the elements rather than being specifically created.
The only beings we know that ACTUALLY got kicked out of the heavens are the seelies, who were envoys of the primordial one.
As for the reason for the archon war: there were only 7 seats available. And Celestia didn’t want to deal with hundreds of gods. And celestia actively sought out gods that were kind to humans (like Deshret and Makoto) because it alligns with the goal of keeping the dragon sovereigns in check. If they had given the gnoses to asshole gods who didn’t care about humans, there would have been a potential threat of that god just betraying Celestia and destroying the gnosis, since they don’t care if their civilizations get destroyed in the process of the dragon sovereign getting their authority back.
Idk how many of youll are familiar with Star Wars Lore but i want to take a small part of it into context because i think that is the main point of the Archon War. At one point the Sith Faction grew very big and the people in the faction were so hungry for power that they were more of a threat to themselves than their enemies were. Similarly before the Archon War the amount of gods present in Teyvat reached a point that it was impossible to control all of them, If the Dragons were to ever rise or another race were to invade Teyvat they wouldnt be able to stop them because of the infighting among themselves so Celestia started the Archon War, a war to gain one of the 7 Authorities of Teyvat and also a war to purge every god till only 7 Remained whose powers were unmatched. Celestia eliminated everyone who could be a threat to their control while gaining absolute loyalty from the strongest of them all and Celestia's plan worked out, when the Abyss invaded Teyvat they were able to defend against it with the powers of the Seven.
I think the assumption that there was a time when the gods were living peacefully is false. The Archon war is more like the "Warring States" period of Chinese history - a popular theme in Chinese literature and games. It followed on naturally enough from the dissolution of the last dynasty of the (Teyvat spanning) Ancient Civilization. We're told that right after the war with the second throne was ended, there was a period where tribes of humans ruled themselves, and soon after the gods arrived. (This is from one of the desert items talking about before Deshret). The gods were born into this chaotic anarchy and were always at war. They were never at peace except where they could come to some local arrangement, which apparently was rare. The condition for being recognized by Celestia was simple: conquer an entire nation. Deshret never did that because the Dendro gods held the jungle. They may have been allies but neither could qualify as long as neither recognized the other as an overlord.
The false part of that book about Ei starts as soon as she reaches Yashiori, which is before the fictional part about her having to die. Having a god kill off their allies (sister even) is silly and has no good explanation, the more so if they could immediately turn around and resurrect those dead gods without losing the gnosis. Nor does it explain how after the first round archons die their successor need not fight for the gnosis. There is no necessity for a fight that is pushed by Celestia. Celestia wants peace - the fighting always came from the "gods". It's not about finding a worthy god. It's just about getting the gods to stop fighting each other all the time, by recognizing seven winners to settle all disputes. The gnoses aren't the reasons for the wars. This is why the winners don't even seem to care about their prizes. The real prize - and the thing all archons REALLY care about - is that they got to impose their ideal on their humans, and rule as they saw fit to guide their share of humanity.
If you think about it, it's only Dainsleif the god cynic, who says the gods were motivated by a gnosis. His opinion is contradicted by almost every archon.
As the Guyun fragments show all the gods were "good" in the sense of wanting to guide humanity with their ideals.
Gods had the same job as Seelies. To guide humanity. To look after humanity. On behalf of the PO. The Seelies were fired and the gods were given the job. This is why (per Enjou) the gods didn't exist before the fall of the Seelies. At least they didn't exist "as gods". Venti might have been around a long time before he became a god.
Celestia had no need to remove excess gods - they made the gods. They could have got rid of them too. It's true they probably made too many. It's not like Celestia was firing on all cylinders during that time.
Part of the confusion comes from the way the game has deliberately painted Celestia as "bad" and hating humans for a long time before reversing it, starting around the time of Enkanomiya.
When Zhongli "dies" Ningguang seems to shrug and say another god will show up. She's not bothered especially because of Keqing's philosophy that Liyue doesn't need a god. And as far as Celestia's concerned maybe they don't. Peaceful times continue. And that was Celestia's goal.
I also think gnosis were more for the purpose of ending the war, all the gods were fighting with no end in sight and celestia just gave the gnosis, kinda like an acnoledgement, as in, we recognize you 7 as the rulers of your territories this is the proof of ownership. And this stoped the war from continuing until there was only 1 surviver
What if Celestia grew afraid of the power of the earthling gods and set them against themselves to weaker them?
If now the amount of "Devine" beings walking Teyvat still so high that we keep bumping into them everywhere, its not hard to imagine that there would be many more before the war.
If that many earthling gods bound together to go against Celestia they might had a chance.
In regards to there being more than one elemental my theory is that certain areas are rich in certain types of elemental energy and thats why the crystal flies and elemental granum are different in different nations, among other differences. so those aligned with the element in their area would naturally become stronger meaning fire god cant beat a rock god in the geo area so at the very least it would be extremly unlikely, if not impossible to get 2 same element gods in different areas.
I've started thinking that the archons aren't actually gods of their element. after all venti is the god of freedom and zongli is the god of contracts. even if by the time we meet them they've long since associated the element with their divine domain [and nahida doesn't even have a choice on this matter given that people were calling her the dendro archon from "birth"].
I know gods can be multifaceted in their domains but it would smooth something out for the archon war; different areas have clear inclinations towards different elements, large enough portions of which can't just be post-war. so how would it turn out if the archon of cryo ended up winning liyue's territory? it wouldn't because they wouldn't be the archon of any element until they won. though it does make one curious about hypotheticals regarding gods being mismatched for their element [i still find it suspicious that the Cryo archon is the god of Love and I await lore reveals]
It is highly that God of Freedom and God of Contract are earned after the Archon war. Neuvilette voice line apparently called Venti and Zhongli by different title, assumptive their title prior to the war. Won't tell you what it is bc it is leak materials and we will not have the official translation of these voice line until someone managed to get their friendship with Neuvilette up high enough in a month for these voice line to be upload.
I really think Celestia is building an army.
The vision holders are chosen for a future war.
I love your voice and the way you describe genshin ❤
What if the war was just done so the primordial one did not have so much possible competition or threats to there rule. Not only that, but it would make the gods fight over a role that is effectively a puppet rulership over teyvat, allowing celestia to replace the seven sovereigns with their own puppets, thus solidifying there rule over the world as a whole. Plus, like you say, 7 gods are a lot easier to keep in line than dozens.
Hey Aster thank you for a new lore theory
Since Teyvat seems to grow elementally powerful creatures naturally, it kinda makes sense that there would be so many demon gods.
As far as the archon war is concerned, each archon rose to power by defeating others, being granted their power and respect (boreas and venti, zhongli and adepti), and protecting humans.
So far, every archon has had their peoples best interests at heart and none of them wish to risk conflict with celestia. They know what happens.
So what better way to bind the 7 strongest elemental beings is there than to hold something they love hostage. Orobashi simply knew too much and Celestia was going to destroy Watatsumi unless he let Ei kill him. He may have been a great serpent but he wasn't a fool. He knew by going all out he would still perish, but his people would be safe.
I suspect celestia killed Makoto during the Khanriah conflict as part of a bigger problem.
It seems as though everything went crazy at the first mention of Celestia. What if the land was in peace before because Celestia wasn't in the picture?
What if Celestia itself is a descended much like the traveler.
It's suspicious that the Traveler is able to utilize all the contraptions Celestia has put into the world, as if they run on similiar softwares.
I think Celestia may have been invaders instead. To cause disfunction and people to turn on eachother would be the perfect way to invade as your opponents will just do the work for you.
And maybe Khanriah was attacked by Celestia because they were close to finding out the truth about Celestia and they were silenced.
I don't know about y'all , but it seems the most catastrophic events all had something to do with Celestia. The fact that we haven't seen a single character this far in reference to being directly connected to Celestia (either a minion or some other entity), aside from the Retainer, just goes to show that Celestia and the traveler are likely connected.
It would be too obvious and ruin the story so Hoyoverse is refraining from showing any person from Celestia.
If you read the book Before Sun and Moon from Enkanomiya, it has already been established that at first there were only the Vishaps and their 7 dragon soveriegns in the world.
Then an outsider came and waged war against the 7. After winning, the outsider aka Phanes created Celestia and humanity which then populated Teyvat as we know it.
Then comes "The Second Who Came". Phanes seeing threat from another alien created 4 shades of himself to combat the threat. Another war raged Teyvat and the people from Enkanomiya who were retelling the events were forced to flee underwater, disconnecting us from the events from the overworld.
After a long time, people from Enkanomiya emerged back to land. By then, the war was over and they had no clue who won.
From this, it is unclear if the one sitting in Celestia is Phanes or The Second Who Came. Nahida told us that she thinks the first decender is what we know as the Heavenly Principle. So, most likely Phanes is still there and the Sustainer we saw during the intro cutscene is one of his 4 Shades.
What we do know is that Celestia does not want anyone knowing the contents of the book Before Sun and Moon. Orobashi, in his misfortune, happened to stumble upon it which prompted Celestia to command Ei to end him.
With this in mind, we have 3 accounted Decenders: Phanes, The Second Who Came, and the Traveler. This is if Irminsul is to be believed that our twin is not. Since we are the fourth, this leaves us with an unaccounted "Third Decender".
People theorized that the last descender is Alice, might be probable, but after seeing how Layla too has elf-ish ears, I don't think that she is a Descender too. Some people assume that Alice is a Descender because we never saw or heard any explanation on the elf race in Teyvat.
@@saif-gv6gl Maybe. Could also be just Aloy since the third does not have any relevance to the plot(yet). Though, highly unlikely because we are fourth and we came 500 years ago. We should have been third, then Aloy can be fourth. It would be a different story if it was just lost in translation and we're not "fourth" but "one of the four".
The problem is, Orobashi attacked during an Archon War, as even Teppei said when we met him on small island next to Yashiori island. So Ei sacrifice may have been part of "wishful thinking" as we know it was supposed to happen at the end of Archon War. To add to that Orobashi lived for quite some time as good neighbor to the Raiden twins so it begs to question one god rule. Not to mention we have Guoba alive in Liyue(albeit sealed) and Rukha co-existing with Goddess of Flowers and Deshert. So if being allies or being sealed were exemptions to one-god rule, why would Ei needed to sacrifice her life?
I've got to get this out of my head so heres a brain dump of a theory. Similar to how ei had her sister, or ruka was allied with the goddess of flowers and desherat. Furina was the most incapable god of a trio who won the war, the first dieing and the other being sacrificed to gain time on the prophecy, leaving Furina as the hydro archon. If i remember correctly furina is the second to hold the title so either its an Ei being the shadow for the archon deal or the other one disappears at the same time.
Oh lol. I was just questioning this (title of the video)a couple weeks ago. Nice.
I'm pretty sure this stuff is just like how it goes in Dragon ball super except in dragon ball super it was universes and in genshin it's nations(it is highly genshins archons and other celestial creatures are atleast a bit Inspired by the god of destructions, kaioshins and angels in dragon ball super)
It is a rather interesting question to pose for sure. Countless wars and battles often are the subjects of various God myths and I've often considered it to be a reflection of our own human history. Putting that aside, we know the 7 dragon sovereigns were the original rulers of Tehvat but we also know they weren't the only dragons that existed as more were born over time etc. This paints a portrait of an elemental world which we are aware that raw elemental power is both harmful and deadly to humans without a Vision. It could be that Celestia merely refashioned this raw elemental energy to create a host of divine beings and that once the dragons were subdued the remaining elemental energy of the God's themselves needed to be subdued in order to both expand the realm where humans could survive as well as balance the elemental energy of the world.
It seems to me that the cultivation of humans was the primary goal of Celestia and all of Tehvats history was for such a purpose. Every human civilization that was neutralized could be seen as a bad test result and merely swept away to make room for further experiments. We can only guess as to what final purpose humans are being sculpted to perform but that's my take away from it all.
The general design of it all does appear to follow a pattern that could give us yet another clue. The repurpose of elements, the repurpose of God's, the repurpose of humans...By that I mean taking the Gnoses from the Dragons, putting 7 God's in charge of human cultivation, empowering humans with Visions or perhaps cultivating Fate so that humans properly cultivated are able to aquire Visions. One can only wonder for what purpose humans will be called upon to wield such power not unlike the divine themselves.
Very off topic but this got me thinking that we might be living in the dark sea
I thought the war was to revitalize the land through death. Like, you need the survivors to oversee whats left and protect the people, guiding them down the right path so they dont destroy the world themselves.
I know genshin is your main thing, but i’d really love to hear your takes on HSR lore.
I have a question: That usually under normal circumstances, In a contract both sides gain somthing unless one is already at loss. So when Zhongli says in his second story quest that he can't answer the truth to traveller regarding dain cause of a contract he made long ago, what could be the contract and what did Zhongli gain from that and if not gain then what was his short comming . My theory is that both the travellers are somewhat sent from celestia to tevyat to uncover some mystery or to find something and all the archons are told to shut their mouth in front of the traveller by celestia. What are your thoughts??
While talking about the archons being some kind of controlling-tool of Celestia, I would be interested in a video about Zhongli and how it's possible that he just "re-signed". Like, is it irrelevant since he's technically still holding the position? And why could he just give the gnosis away without Celestia doing anything?
After the 4.1 quests, youll have to remake this one😂
Maybe, but by how much? In Fontaine can we really expect much to be revealed..? Even if we had gotten more from Apep on Sumeru's edge: would a game like Genshin reveal much until closer to the real end (i.e. not until Natlan will we get specfics and Shneznaya will "prepare us" for confrontation with Celestia- whether the final outcome be good or bad) in truth? In a game, especially unfinished like Genshin, they have until now strung along the story and reveal in each release. While reveals that suggest or sideways tell what the devs of Genshin will do (the possibly Nicole [unknown as yet] line in one Sumeru quest where she says human hearts, minds, history change.. believe in what you see is a big reveal but a very vague one on details [as it leads both the traveler and the player on to a higher level of awareness in game and one of the older and more aware beings is clueing us in- albeit very unspecifically, of what is really happening on Teyvat]) even if revealed (some think Ayaka is connected to or is herself a dragon as an example, unknown yet) without details it says nothing. As a minor pre 4.1 that we already know of, the reveal of the snake around Baizhu's neck being a two in one attachment: she links to his life to live and he gains her longevity in a way- somehow suggests that both power and elements/forms (such as Gouba having fire powers even though it is "not" a pyro being) have more than even the Dragon Sovereigns or the Archons via the gnosis's have [partly why the traveler is such an oddball (using elements without a vision as in Inazuma or being able to harness that or other power at all like cleaning Dvalin's tears in Mondstat) and a sort of celebrity] or know. If too little Aster would only have to change a few things, if too much not just the script and images used but the whole idea would have to change. Possibly diverting from the Archon War focus entirely.
@@lkimberly2064 glad someone else that realizes genshin is TECHICALY STILL beta till ATLEAST the 7 nations released and if later are "Addons"
Is it correct to assume that the Archon War was one simultaneous event, stemming from the same source (Celestia) for the same reason? Or could it refer to a period of time of extreme unrest and multiple wars across Teyvat, not necessarily related to each other but grouped into one in history due to the involvement of Archons? This could explain why we know nothing of Sumeru's part in the Archon War: nothing much probably happened in Sumeru at that timeframe.
something that would explain why each region victorious god has a different element would be that they were meant to win, celestia could have given them the powers to win on purpose that’s why each region god has a different element
Amazing video, just a shame that you got caught before the lore drop of 4.1 with where the gnosis’ true power comes from 😅
Ok. What if... the Archon war was also a result of forbidden knowledge? I think forbidden knowledge had at least something to do with it. Source: Xiao's teaser.
Zhongli: "As slain gods fester, their vengeful wrath cursed the world, manifesting in infernal forms."
I know 'their vengeful wrath' refers to Archon Residue. But isn't it the same as 'forbidden knowledge', or 'abyssal power'? At least they have much in common. And if their is a root of all problems in Teyvat, it would be the forbidden knowledge for sure.
Well, Forbidden Knowledge seems to corrupt entities whereas God Residue seems to relate to possession by Gods. They may relate in some way but I think they're very different in why they manifest and what impact that manifestation has.
yea im curius what the "forbiddon knowlage" is, well know its PROBBALY soft propaganda to not consume "non approved information" but storyline wise dont still understand that.
Forbidden Knowledge has nothing to do with approved or unapproved knowledge. As Rukkadevata said, it's not "knowledge" in the sense that it can be traditionally comprehended; not even she is capable of understanding it. It's knowledge in the sense that it is information, the reason it is problematic is that it's information that makes no sense. If you're familiar with the concepts of Eldritch Horror, it's similar to that. The Eldritch is so foreign to the human mind that attempts to comprehend it will fail and simply drive people mad. @@nightmarerex2035
This is my boneheaded theory
Pre-Archon war, we can assume that all gods are living harmoniously together with other gods (just like in sumeru where 3 gods exists to govern the land) but when Celestia came out they decided to launch a war-game between archon vs archon (to obviously shave down the number of gods).
Why the Celestia do it? Because they are simply afraid of the presence of many gods. They also think that they will never conquer teyvat if there are so many gods around.
To simply put, Celestia want to conquer teyvat but they want to trim down other gods so they can easily manage and to lessen the likelihood of retaliation from other gods.
What if each archon is a hard drive in essence. Each hold a part of memory and history of teyvat. If corruption happens Celestia sends code to wipe that drive. Irsminsul is th3 hard coding that connects each drive to the main part? It's a thought as I like the idea that irsminsul is a super computer. The way it branches and locks data is totally comparable
10:20 wasnt rex lapis chilling in celestia before the right of descension? and he said celestia wasnt that great?
Come to think of it, that slight discouragement kind of hits the same tone as "dont seek the master of the four shades" line from post the second who came
I expect celestia is mostly empty/ruined, duno what gives me that hunch except for the games intro screen being a bit broken up.
so venti was a seelie right?
i sware somewhere early-mid liuye someone (npc) mentioned rex lapis was a geo slime but that could totally be me being crazy, i was barely getting to dragonspine at the time and didnt know how deep the lore would go
Further, everything must keep irmansul in mind, its entirely possible that whatever reason there was for the archon war is a LIE covered up by irmansul tampering. Even zhongli wouldnt be able to recal, unless its stored in the memory of dust or something.
AND were were we? The siblings, including us, traveled through tehyvat COMPLETELY once before, and that memory has been erased, ergo OUR spot in ages past is deleted.
Our sibling made a SECOND journey 500 years ago. so WE existed during this archon war, or before depending on how long we were in the box.
Does the fatui know this when they say were the xth descender? or have we been counted twice?
We are in for a fun time whenever the Fatui decides to channel all of the gnosises powers into a single entity. I mean imagine the power of complete control over all 7 elements from the seven sovereigns this could create a being that even the power of all the archons couldnt hope to match. That new revelation makes the gnosises much more terrifying than they were originally
I was confused with the thumbnail. 'Why have a war'? Who?
Instead something like 'Why War Happened?'
Welcome back!
My thoughts on war.
Well what we know supposedly know that to be Archon you need love for humans and be considered victor or strong.
I personally think it didn’t start of as event by Celestia but a growing tension between different gods wanting more territories and worshipers. As they grew Celestia slowly started to take opportunity of those fights and let’s say poured gasoline on the spark. They aren’t instigator or catalyst, but definitely supported idea of weeding out some gods. I also speculate the goal wasn’t exactly “clear whole stage” but more of make others gods recognize you as superior one. In that way a chain of command would been formed or pecking order. Celestia > Archon > other gods.
I remember it being written somewhere that king deshret refused a gnosis from celestia while other gods were still alive, so they must've had other criterias too other than winning
The other criteria was successfully holding down your land and protecting the people in your domain from other gods
the thinks with gods being of concepts make me think of aeons from star rail
My theory is that the gnosis contain the power of the elements from each sovereign and Celestia HAD to give the gnoses to the fittest to may be keep the dragons from awakening or reincarnating (from 4.1 Archon Quest)
Also, how did the war stop, was it counted till seven and coincidentally found each from an element or the let the same elemnt gods fight each other and found a victor from each element?
King Desheret lived during the time of Dragon King Nibelung and Apep. Surely, Sovereigns and gods is already there before Primordial One decent into Teyvat.
We are so back
Maybe Decarabian was like Deshret and Celestia just offered him the gnosis straight out and didn't expect him to be overthrown by Venti and friends. In fact, it might have for Celestia's goals better of the Anemo Archon had been the God of Imprisonment/Containment/Restraint/Monitoring/Adulation/etc... rather than the God of Freedom who has apparent ties to Istaroth.
Come to think of it, IIRC, what little we know of Decarabian kinda fits the description of the Demiurge/Yaldobaoth in gnosticism, in the sense that he thinks that he's a loving God when he was actually a deluded tyrant who was unjustly trapping mortals in his realm and forcing them to worship him, and who was/will be overthrown by an envoy from the true Creator(s) who will show humanity the way to true freedom.
Honestly, is extremely suspicious how little we know about Decarabian considering how important he is to the story so far
no wonder why dainsleif and tsaritsa hate celestia 💀
“I hope there are no important lore drops”
I have bad news for you Aster.
If Osial had won would he be the lord of Geo or Liyue become the land of Hydro?
Archon quest playthrough when?
Cataclysm and Archon War are different things
Celestia was just playing risk 😂
"the archon war! :D"
Mare jivari lore please
4.1 - there's a big lore drop
What if hydro gnosis was already broken long time ago by furina and thats why she got cursed and a hydro dragon sovereign could be reincarnated just a random thought 😅
Think in the shoes of a dictator and it all make sense.
1.why the war? I think the gods are just natural phenomena, like Azdaha born from nature, and now you world is full of factions that you can't control. What do you do? Design departments that fit your ideal, and have managers.
2. why don't allow quitters. Why give the opportunity of underground organization to form?
3. why allow two or more gods to coexist? If two major factions come to an agreement that they won't cause problems, why should I care?
To be honest you just have to compare human history with teyvat history : More stability
Hundreds of Archons existing at the same time would mean hundreds of successions wars, civil wars, belligerent wars, crusades etc... just like how on Earth, one nation has lived through countless and often unnecessary conflits that have negative long term effects to human society.
Even today, IRL geopolitics has been a pain in the ass because of how many times we killed and enslaved each other.
Limiting an entire continent to just 7 powerful immortal gods with established succession rules does bring stability to Teyvat, the proof being the fact that almost each nation has existed for thousand of years with just a few internal conflicts.
I think the purpose of the archon war was to reduce or kill possible threats to celestia
Celestia did this by promising a higher power to those who won
But in order for them to obtain the higher power they must fight for it
Instead of celestia themselves trying to fight for control against an entire planet
Celestia had teyvat's strongest beings fight each-other until seven remained
Celestia is the devil in heaven if you ask me
Maybe we consider that there are 72 Demon Gods. Their master let’s say Solomon and his five rings (four shades and himself). And Visions that trace ambition and wills.
Eventually a mortal must ascend to become divine (demonic?) themselves.
Maybe the Gods drove a culling to remove weakness and refresh their ranks with cultivated mortals.
Maybe the Gods leave to do the same. Traveling the primordial sea to other worlds and doing this again.
I'm just going to mention something... Isn't twinning or the aspect/theme of twins common among the archons?
Say, Venti took on the same appearance as his good friend, a copy of him in essence. Ei has Makoto. Rukka and Nahida are similarly sort of a twin. Focalors and Furina are a split of each other.
Zhongli though. Where's his chip into this theme? xD
I know this is a very late response but Zhongli's old self vs new self. When Zhongli ruled Liyue with Guizhong, it was noted that Guizhong was the 'brain' and Zhongli was the 'brawn', he relied on her in this joint rulership for the diplomatic aspects. After Guizhong's death, Zhongli had to learn how to rule well and embody the brain with the brawn.
It's also worth noting that Zhongli is the only archon to have an artifact set (archaic petra) - he abandoned one identity which is in history for his new identity. Of course he also "resigned" his role of archon (he still has a seat I believe, since he hasn't died and the gnosis hasn't been destroyed) and is living a new life in that way. So maybe that is where he fits in.
What are the demon gods ? Pre-Archon status beings like Zhongli and Venti or something else entirely ?
The demon gods are the archons. The chinese name for the seven gods is Demon Gods. That's why they have the Ars Goethia name.
Anyone who is worshipped can be called a god so we use these terms to specify which time period we are talking to. Teyvat was first ruled by the Dragonlords like Apep,Azhdaha and Nuevillette's previous incarnation, the Dragonlords were overthrown by the Heavenly Principals and his Angelic Host this group consisted of gods like Phanes,Istaroth,Hesperus and Phosphorus after a period of time the Heavenly Principals were overthrown by the Second Thrones during the Second Divine War and they were Demonlords who invaded Teyvat this group consists of all the modern day gods except for the Dragons,Shades and Seelies.
The demon gods are just elemental beings in Teyvat that I presume have ascended or descended from Celestia or basically the elemental creations of the 1st who came and their Shades. I specify their origins as separate from the dragons being the original elementals of the plane currently known as Teyvat.
My belief is that the original descenders that defeated the dragons used their power to help create Teyvat as we know it.
Not all demon gods are archons, some are above archons like the Shades and some are "below" like Andrius, Osial or Marchosias for example.
5:56
... Is Furinna a Mirror of Neuvillette?
What if teyvat can't sustain too much demon gods, it's like some sort of population control ? The seven dragon sovereign are pure elemental being and the war against the dragons almost destroy the world. What if the remnants of this huge elemental burst from deceased dragons are what made the demon god? Same like archon residue, but because they were dragons & pure elements their remnants just become sentient, unlike the demon gods whose remnant can be tainted with grief and grudge. After the sovereign defeated, there's a LOT of demon gods, influx of elemental energy can also make teyvat unstable, thus MAYBE then the irminsul tree exist to stabilize it by the leylines, AND THEN- while we don't know when did deshret died but my sus is, they see that deshret and the goddess of flower able to team up & actually achive some great stuffs, if other gods follow their steps and be chummy making a divine body of government on earth, another rebeollion against the divine is on the horizon
Before that happen, they curb the many gods by making them fighting each other, I feel it would be like the holy grail war in fate series, they are not only fighting for physical dominion but also ideals, which one gonna win over the heaven, which one determined enough to realize their vision to higher degree. This kinda win win because celestia now have limited threat while the demon gods enjoy their claims. But as time goes by , some the archons realize that this can't go on forever, things changes, venti from the get go want humanity to run the show while he is observing on the sideline, Zhongli follow soon as he feel the age humanity is needed.
Theory/Spoilers:
So now that there’s word that the divine seats are actually the stolen powers of the dragons, it could very well be that Decarabian WAS the anemo dragon, and his death opened a new “seat” by allowing Celestia to steal his power. Dragons can be reborn- even in the guise of humans. And, hey, isn’t it somewhat of a coincidence that there is a windborne dragon associated with Decarabian’s Mondstadt born shortly after Venti took over? So my thought is either Dvalin is Decarabian reborn, and Venti feels a sense of guilt and/or pity for overthrowing him and sending the land into chaos in a time of worldwide war (Decarabian did TRY to protect the humans of Mondstadt even if he was incapable of understanding them- he was just a single mom of a house full of toddlers stretched way too thin with intruders constantly trying to beat down the door and therefore had to childproof everything while constantly on full red alert- cut the guy some slack) OR he’s a Seelie who was cast out of the moon kingdom and therefore made a moon kingdom of his own on Teyvat where he served as an envoy to guide and protect these weak and pitiful creatures from the injustice of the gods’ rulings and free them from their fates.
just remember "the skys of tevayt are fake"
Why was there a war of gods? Because someone that is above the gods was bored. If this is the actually reason.... slow clap
Sandrone is Mary-Ann
real
Thanks for making a video thats Not the newest Archon quest im so tired of seeing that every content creator is just doing that now.
FINALLY IM EARLY-(ish)
27th
Hood vidio
Archon are selfish, vain, narcissist
Please, talk slower.
For us non native english, its difficult to keep up.
I have to backtrack in the vídeo often
Just reduce playback speed from the video settings button
Early.. 😁
Segundo
V( D
First
also the most useless comment :P.
4.1 Spoilers
Arlecchino speculate that Neuvi is the Hydro Archon, her statement prompted Paimon to ask Neuvi, within ear shot of a garde, if this was true, Neuvi didnt answer this instead he express his grief after relating rain with hydro dragon sadness and voila it rain. The Traveler and Paimon put two and two together and summarize that Neuvi is the sovereign of water, which they quickly ask, again within earshot of a garde. Neuvi didnt actually say yes at least not like he is stating the word yes, but his wording at least can be summarize as so, Paimon afterward ask why doesnt he just use his dragon power to seal the Primordial Water in absoluteness, in which Neuvi respond none of the incarnation of the sovereigns is as powerful as their precursors previously and this is due to the fact the gnosis have taken away their powers and he suggest that any of the incarnations strength can only be restore to at least more powerful level if the archons relent their gnosis which would be a disaster for the humans under them, like socially revolt and all of that. So Neuvi statement point that those gnosis hold the sovereigns powers at least, maybe the process of extracting them only completed at the beginning of the Archon War. Again this whole statement was made within earshot of a garde at the garden in front of the theater none the less, let hope someone dont get any ideas on how to desperately solve the prophecy...