CS:GO Upscaled - AMD's FSR VS Nvidia's NIS
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- čas přidán 9. 06. 2024
- This video contains a sponsored segment for Netduma. Get a discount on the Netduma R3 Gaming Router here: netduma.com/order/netduma-r3/ using the code '3kliks'
Nvidia's NIS and AMD's FSR, tested in CS:GO to see whether they can improve framerates, image quality, or a bit of both. Or neither!
0:00 - Summary
1:58 - Intelligent upscalers
2:37 - Stupid upscalers
4:29 - The stretch
5:49 - Importance of Anti-aliasing
7:05 - AMD VS NVIDIA!
9:42 - Hypothetical 8x AA example
12:53 - Performance impact of Lossless Scaling app
15:37 - NIS using Nvidia's Control Panel
16:42 - The future of upscaling in CS:GO - Hry
Hey! Lossless Scaling developer here.
Thank you very much for bringing up the topic of upscalers. The more people are interested in this, the more actively technologies will develop in this direction.
I would like to comment a little on your video. Regarding the performance of upscaling, everything is as you said. For these specific GPU models. The point is that upscaling is not free, as you have already noticed, but its complexity is constant for one algorithm and one selected resolution. In other words, if an entry level GPU spends 50% (for example) of its power on upscaling from 1440p to 4k, then a mid-range GPU will do the same by spending 20%, while a top-end only 5%. So, the better your GPU is, the more benefit from using AMD FSR and NIS in order to increase the FPS. Also, it makes sense to use upscaling only if the game performance is limited by the GPU and not the CPU.
I did a quick test on dust 2 on my 1060 and got the following results (rough measure):
1440p native - 200-220 fps,
4k native - 120-140 fps,
1440p FSR 160-180 fps.
As for the native implementation of upscalers, it will always be better than third-party utilities, because it does not waste the resources of the GPU for capturing images, and does not upscale UI.
Thank you for your work, and this comment!
nice
Thank you so much for your work. I've been an avid user of LS since I heard about it, I even happened to help a little on the portuguese translation (I wanted to do it all by myself but coincidentally someone came in at the exact same time as me, we ended up doing a half each). That's how much I appreciate your work and I just wanted to give something in return. Keep going with this amazing work
is a fantastic tool! I feel like all its missing at the moment is a 'screenshot' button, because neither Windows 10's snipping tool or Gyazo work well with taking screenshots of the upscaled view for comparisons
i just wanted to say that i didnt pay for lossless scaling 😊
Upscaling has been keeping my 8 year old rig quite competitve with modern games. I really love the implementation of these new technologies for us gamers with lower end hardware.
i got my first pc with amd cpu and the only thing bad to be honest is my gpu thats why i cant play some heavy or modern games
Even with high end hardware the new games can be brutal on framerates, DLSS lets me play at 144 FPS
@@damien3456 get a Nvidia gpu lmao
playing everything in 640x480 is even more effective
If ur a teen u should've saved ur money like me and 6 mth later i spent 3k flat rtx 3090 and 5950. 10-15 yrs later id probably upgrade my pc to best of dat time.
Lossless scaling developer has since updated the UI, both algorithms, added new algorithms, and significantly fixed much of the performance issues with lossless scaling. Negative performance gains are rare at this point and only happens to overly cpu bound games like CSGO.
ur name is so hektik
the name checks out!
"This video is sponsored by an evil alien robot spider."
The *giant enemy spider*
Me: This doesn't really look that sharp, I don't see a difference between the unupscaled 720p and the upscaled 1080p.
Also me: Accidentally watched this video on 720p
Also. CZcams buffers the video a lot and compresses it for a lower quality
Haha I watch in 480p,but I still noticed differences
@@fitmotheyap I was gonna say something like “how?” But then I checked to see what I was watching in and I’m also watching in 480p. I didn’t even realize
Wow im watching in 240p and i saw some differences
"Experience the delights of a new region, or use this to block one that you've had bad past experiences with!"
*blocks out the Fr*nch*
why fr*nch? is the letter "*" offensive?
@@crispinotechgaming fr*nch 🤮
Yeah AMD needs to add FSR to their driver. You can already somewhat do this if you're on Linux and use proton. Makes me more excited for the steamdeck to use it!
Proton-GE (and most other custom Proton versions) that is. The PR on upstream (Valve's) Proton is still open (ValveSoftware/wine#116).
What Valve will likely be using to "force" FSR on the SteamDeck in the future is GameScope though which, simply put, runs the game in a dedicated virtual desktop that behaves like a window in your actual desktop. This is useful for running games in "fullscreen" without having to alter the resolution of your actual desktop. Whatever the game renders into this "desktop" is then upscaled by GameScope (instead of the game itself or your desktop stack) and you could obviously make it do the upscale with FSR.
Proton already can upscale dx11 and dx12 titles with FSR.
@@vadnegru Regular Proton can't do that yet, only custom versions like Proton-GE.
CS GO has tremendous upscaling potential because of it's distinct small maps. If you train a relatively small network for a specific map it will be faster and better than a network for upscaling images in general.
Yeah, but like Philip said, it requires effort and work which is something Valve ain't cool with.
Philip excluding france on that map had me laughing
Nobody likes to play with french people, not even frenchs
Remember, no French
TAA performance is good, but in most games it looks like vaseline smeared all over the screen and has issues like horrible ghosting and artefacting. What's worse is that new games are made with TAA in mind to hide horrible artifacts and shimmering edges. Cyberpunk2077 is a good example of that. If you turn it off, the game is legit unplayable. Lighting, hair, foliage and reflections completely break. Edges become so bad, you can count the pixels. BFV is another game which does TAA bad for the same reasons. And EA/DICE somehow managed to screw up the visuals too (highlights too bright, blacks too crushed) so I get a migraine after playing it (I don't have that issue with BF1 which also uses TAA).
Not to mention that in many games TAA leaves tons of ghosting artifacts and doesn't improve the image quality when standing still at all, because it is a temporal(time,multiple DIFFERENT frames) effect, it needs movement.
In theory DLSS is just what TAA always wants to be, except for TAA never reaches this because of its limitations.
current TAA would require a slight (upper end)sub-pixel screen shake of the camera to fully work 24/7, but that would be very uncomfortable in gameplay most likely and only result in some more fuzziness anyways if that shaking was to be displayed on your screen. Rendering a few extra shaken frames that don't get displayed every 10th frame or so that is used for TAA as additional reference could be a solution, but that's an obvious performance loss of literal 10% with that example number.
A good FXAA(looking at you Trackmania2/Trackmania(2020)) or a good SMAA is still better (and especially sharper) than any other reasonably fast post process AA within the usual performance cost.
@@aijena Exactly! Interesting that you mention shaking, because when I disabled TAA in Battlefield V through the config, the whole screen started shaking like it's buzzing or vibrating. Even in the main menu. It went away when I enabled TAA again. I don't know if it's just a glitch or if it was done on purpose so that the TAA can work while stationary too. In any case, I hate TAA and I hate how it's being used more and more in games with no option to turn it off. Even Red Dead Redemption 2 has the same issues with TAA.
@@aijena If done right, TAA does improve image quality in stationary scenes - in fact, it's a best-case scenario for TAA since ghosting artifacts will barely be visible. This is done by jittering vertex positions randomly every frame when TAA is enabled. If this per-vertex movement is tuned correctly, then you will never notice it, even when the camera doesn't move at all. (Of course, this jitter should be disabled when TAA is disabled.)
@@aijena TAA absolutely does work when stationery. Youre right that TAA needs motion but what you're missing is that when TAA is enabled in a game, the camera is being shaken back and forth every frame in small motions. This gives the final TAA image more detail to work with and thus it gives a smooth looking image and the shaking isn't visible in the final image
Finally someone who understands how SHIT TAA is!
I don't like temporal anti aliasing, particularly in Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order i noticed artifacts when only rotating the camera.
@@3kliksphilip I wish i could test this but i don't have it downloaded right now. I remember testing what caused some weird "ghosting" and it was as far as i can remember temporal aa, i wouldn't even have motion blur turned on.
@@anders_x3 yes, TAA is absolute garbage
the performance impact is due to the implementation with Lossless scaling and the need to use games in windowed mode with it. Games with built in FSR support perform incredibly well
I have some great upscaling glasses for real life they sharpen and add detail. people say it's for fixing myopia but it works even if you have 2020 vision!
I've been watching your videos for 4-6 years, love it, have learned a lot. the passion of your work has always been an inspiration to me.
Loved the Gandalf quote in the end.
First time I was genuinely interested in the sponsors ad. Damn what a time to be alive
Always love the upscaling videos Philip, there's something so satisfying about it. Also that Nvidia comparison tool, I definitely love your use of it in this video. Usually when you do the screen wipes I find myself scrubbing the video back and forth, but this time using that tool to look on focused areas or whole images I find I can allow my eye to dart itself around the image as I please, and you left me plenty of time to do that, so thanks! Love to see the improvements in presentation
im glad you promoted lossless scaling. ive been using it forever and its been incredibly useful
I am most interested in Intel's "XeSS", it will perform like DLSS, so very high quality, but work on Intel, AMD, and Nvidia GPU's, and its open source.
You're the first person to bring that up here. Love it
and xbox too apparently
XeSS isn't magic. High quality XeSS needs hardware support. I don't think it would run fine on weaker / older GPUs like FSR.
@@ArunG273 well yes but actually no, it supports only gpus with dp4a instructions and those gpus are pretty new
I loved that Gandalf reference at the end of the video man!
This is the first time an ad actually caught me attention, thats a sick piece of tech
I'm glad you took those advertisement deals. Your view numbers clearly are not what they used to be. I hope that some video of yours goes viral and that you stay being a youtuber, I enjoy your content very much.
I've no interest in upscaling yet, but still appreciate the investigation and information deep dive into this technology by Philip.
1:50 the sponsor agreed to that? Heh! That was great, thanks for the laugh!
You sold me this router when I saw you avoiding France
4:09
I can't tell! I'd totally use this if I didn't run CS:GO in borderless and already achieve my desired framerate.
@Taistelu_pelto chill it's supposed to be 1080p, not 4k
@Taistelu_pelto it makes sense when you're watching 1080p content, no?
@@MaksKCS watching 4k on a lower resolution monitor means you get the added benefit of much greater video bitrate (60mbps on 4k vs 12mbps on 1080p) as well as the 4x increase pixel count acting as a supersample anti-alising method.
@Taistelu_pelto
4k on CZcams is close to 1080p? Okay sure
CZcams 1080p looks identical to video games in 1080p on my 1920x1080 monitor. I guess my games should be run in 4k coz I'm missing out on bitrate?
Like what are you guys talking about
I love how it looks so blurry without the upscaling
Philip is the only one noticing the difference between resolutions and such because everyone else is playing on 1024 x 768 blackbars
3kliks is basically the only youtuber you don't mind putting ads/sponsors in a video, as he makes even that entertaining af.
Great vid. Upscaling allows my little 1060 3gb to be under vram limit for almost all games.
I'm sometimes use Lossless Scaling on my gaming laptop, which has integrated and discrete graphics, and that's main benefit, upscaling can be performed on integrated graphics, when game's running on discrete, almost none performance penalty
Damn you and your references Philip, now I want to rewatch lord of the rings
Damn I haven't seen a Netduma ad for like 3 years
I like that tf2 had render scaling with the mat_viewportscale command, which is both fundamentally broken and sv cheats locked in csgo
the upload grind
Great video, thanks for spending the time to look into this subject - won't be any use for me for CS:GO as I'm already getting 300-400fps at 1440p at high settings but this could be more useful in newer games such a Battlefield 2042 etc. Maybe once good 4K HDR high refresh is more common for PC monitors upscaling will be much more useful.
Great video more in depth video please
nineteen minutes of philip? we have been blessed this friday
Good video, thank you for your Content
I like the lotr quote at the end
Best upscaling IMO is in COD Vanguard, I played that game during the free weekend, and my fps was around 100 but with upscaling it was 150+ fps. Option is called "super resolution" or something, just set it to performance
It uses AMD FSR
I think, at least from the looks of it, that the FSR upscaling algorithm uses something similar like nonlinear anisotropic diffusion just on a lower scale. At least to me the resulting effect looks quite similar.
It uses nothing like it. In fact his description of it was entirely wrong.
It uses a 2-tap lanczos derived algorithm with a clamped adaptive elliptical filter with a 2x2 neighborhood limit to reduce ringing.
In other words: it's as close to a perfect upscale as you can get.
@@vyor8837 That is some very interesting insight! I assume it is publicly available knowledge since it's open source but i wasn't aware of the specific algorithms used. Lanczos i'm familiar with, in comparison to biliniar and cubic it is known to have a much higher reconstruction accuracy while also being faster to compute, so that makes perfect sens to me. Clamped adaptive elliptical i've never heared of, so i guess i'll have to look that one up! :D
@@toastbrot97 Ya, the it also has an edge detection algorithm. All of these changes are designed to remove the ringing artifacts shown in the video with the lite version and ensure that it can be used as a form of "primitive" AA as well.
@@vyor8837 The highest setting in FSR has looked pretty close to the highest setting of DLSS in games I've played that had both (such as Hellblade and Horizon: ZD), which is pretty impressive given FSR is relatively new and works on most recent GPUs and the new consoles.
@@AKSBSU not most "new" gpus, every GPU that can run dx11.
One game that is absolutely lovely with FSR is Kingdome come: Deliverance, it has really good antialiasing on its own, but with FSR it is decent even at 640x480 -> 1920x1080. Of course when you start moving it gets blurry, because thats what antialiasing does in this game, but when standing, the image is almost perfect. Of course it looks painted, but it somehow fits this game very well. I recommend you to try this one out.
Philip, you're good at what you do.
That sponser is actually good
Nice video, however, you are talking about Vulkan support in DotA2 and use DX11 as can be seen at 18:00. Is there a higher boost by using FSR with Vulkan than FSR and DX11?
Extra great work
Have you considered looking into hardware upscalers like the Marseille mCable/mClassic?
I tried the Lossless Scaling app on a GTX 1080 and I gained a ton of performance in both Minecraft and Battlefield V going from 1440p to 1080p. I even saw a minor performance gain setting the scaling to just 1.1.
Reading the dev's post (top comment) it seems to be exactly as I thought. The faster your GPU the more the benefit.
hey philip, i know u are over with your "VR phase" but do you ever think about how these upscalers work differently with a screen strapped barely inches to your eyes? im kinda curious.
I miss the days when supersampling and downscaling was the Thing. Upscaling never feels good to me. Good to have but never make it the rule.
Loved the random lotr references
one aspect I've always felt has been overlooked with stuff like DLSS and FSR is for games with pre-rendered backgrounds. A game using pre-rendered backgrounds (similar to the point-and-click games of old) might only have its images rendered at a resolution like 720p or 1080p due to filesize - but with FSR or DLSS those backgrounds could be upscaled in real-time to look better on larger displays.
I find it kinda annoying how developers of 2D engines don't seem to have considered this as something that is worth implementing
This good explanation lot thankyou
This upscaling will be useful to players who use lower resolutions such as 4:3 1280x960, because you can increase the quality of the image without changing your favourite lower resolution.
The sharpening helps a lot even at native resolution.
Okay it's getting scary now 3kliks You're taking picture's outside my house on Mutley xD
Warhammer: Vermintide 2 just got FSR support, and turning it on makes the game look like a painting unless you use the in game sharpening - it’s actually kind of neat.
Man I wish this stuff was global and for any game, like an option in the control panel. I tried using the FSR for any app thing, and it understandably didn't improve performance.
Also I'm not sure if smartphones do things like compositing images it already has, the really good performance for the given sensor size I think is due to frame stacking. It's still a temporal component though
Yo that router actually looks sick
I’m a big sucker for upscaling. My rig is getting older now (4th gen Xeon server cpu with 4 cores 8 threads, 1060 3gb and 16gb ddr3 ram) and even if I can play a game I want without upscaling with good performance I will likely flip on fsr if the game supports it or turn on NIS if it doesn’t. Helps to maintain a more constant fps in more demanding areas and gives me good fps in games where I normally wouldn’t (I have a 1440p monitor which my 1060 really really doesn’t like in modern games)
You already apply sharpening filter to CSGO without upscaling, though. Loved the random LotR quote, though.
hahaha That was an amazing ad segue!
i started upscaling a few weeks ago and now im addicted i upscale ALL of my pictures
spent half a year on warzone with NIS going from 1600x900 to 1080p. Increased my fps to be significantly more “smooth” feeling for my gtx 1080. Absolutely love this tech.
Me watching in 480p: "Damn that looks crisp!"
I have loved CSGO since 2012 as I have been the administrator of this channel since 2015
Thank you so much, could you compare or add in DSR as well? really curious. I know it works differently, just wonder what it would produce. I really like DSR even though it HAMMERS performance the quality improvement is so nice.
@@3kliksphilip true and I agree, though it does trick the game engine thinking you'd run in 4K but downscales it rather then upscales. Same with CZcams videos where 4K videos have more to work with I do think DSR is a better method of getting a visual quality boost and not really focusing on the performance aspect or improving that. It is indeed the opposite of what it tries to achieve but was just curious how that would look like compared next to it.
Really good video
Does upscaling add input lag? If so, is it enough to make upscaling less appealing in a title like CSGO compared to DOTA or story driven games?
when you say slows the game down, what do you mean? in framerate and frametime i see little to no difference between 8x and off, highs and lows are perfectly intact. Id like to hear your side of the story to figure out whether or not its worth looking into but my experience with 8x has been amazing which is why every player in NAVI is using 8x currently.
you really should see a difference. Double check its actually applying.
Or are you running at quite low resolution anyway?
I noticed on the website for the application that it only works on games in windowed mode. From what I understand Windowed comes with a performance hit compared to Fullscreen, right?
let's fucking go! i only trust you with this kinda thing philip
When Phillip takes a photo of where you used to live and puts it in a video :0
i like how he drew around france
I think it's worth noting that the implementation of FSR in lossless scaling is not the ideal implementation of it. It just works on the entire image, and I imagine NIS on it might have a few downsides against running it native by driver. I haven't tried NIS on lossless scaling, because I have an rapidly aging 970, but FSR on the software (prior to the last update that changed it up quite a bit - that I haven't tried either), also didn't really yield any benefits in framerates in 1080p. However, I recently tried Amid Evil's native FSR and was impressed by the results. To the point that ultra quality FSR bumps my FPS by 30 and still looks more charming with the sharpness applied. The future looks pretty amazing for upscaling, I just wish that proper FSR was more widely adopted by now. Can't wait to see Intel's take in upscaling, it looks great AND free.
what does this method use since reshade might get you banned.
What have you used? btw interested in DVXK since vulkan is only possilbe on linux?
Bruh that router is ridiculous, damn, the ad got me.
Fyi Dota 2 now has FSR integrated straight into the game. If you want to do some more tests on what FSR can do for Source engine games.
8:10 is one of the reasons that i want to get a gaming pc, because 720p upscaled for whatever reason looks bad due to oversharpening, also i have a pretty large monitor so 720p looks pretty bad by itself (im playing with pretty old integrated graphics)
The exclusion of France killed me
Oh no guys he's at it again
Wait the sponsor is actually sick wtf
Finally ur being sponsored by smth ppl might actually get.
I didn’t get this video in my subscription feed.
Even without these smart upscalers I have never understood why the “default” old algorithm used was “Bilinear” when “Bicubic”upscales look noticeably better to my eye. Downscaling bilinear is great and gives a nice anti-aliased effect but there’s a reason why emulators like Cemu default the upscale to using “Bicubic”. Honestly I have no idea why bilinear upscales are more common than Bicubic when you look at the end result. We’ve Bicubic for ages and I’d rather have that algo any day of the week than bilinear personally.
I’m very happy we finally are getting smarter upscales though. Nvidia does have some NIS bugs to resolve though - at the moment you can’t enable it per profile in the NVCP and if it’s set to ON it negatively impacts performance even when at native resolution and even when 0% sharpening is being applied. Hopefully they’ll fix that, I prefer setting these things in the NVCP to using NVExperience.
bilinear is favourable since it does better in 3D games compared to bicubic, bilinear also is the most performant wise next to nearest neighbor/integer scaling. But if you put any resolution that isn't in integer (2x,3x,4x) then Bilinear will try it's best to resample the unequal amounts of pixel to your monitor's fullscreen. It is still fucking horrendous though, Lanczos scaling like FSR and NIS, help to negate Bilinear and replace it with a much smarter and complex resampling algorithim to negate blurriness and smooths out any unequal pixels as best as it could. I do agree that Nvidia needs to clean out the bugs and optimise their sharpening filter as it uses more performance than the scaler itself
@@sheikhrayan9538 thanks good to know
Oh that eternal confrontation with France... gotta love it :)
This feels like an ad for all those mods.
*blocks France*
"Never had any past bad experiences with Germany"
The music is good in ur vids
16:51 That patchnote line is kinda misleading, l4d2 does run with vulkan(as does Portal 2) but it's not native, it's running a translation layer for directx(in this case it's using dxvk), while it can improve performance(just because dx9 is _that_ old) it's nowhere near a native implementation like Dota 2, which has vulkan support due to it being on Source 2, that dropped opengl in favor of vulkan. Unfortunately CS:GO getting upscaling and vulkan support only seems likely when(perhaps even if) CS:GO gets ported to Source 2(Though it could get backported like Panorama).
I like how he excluded French in the sponsor ad
Good thing to do
@@ikagura And the right thing to do
How can i upscale with NIS but still keep my 4:3 STRETHCED, i tried a few things but nothing worked, any tips?
19 minutes video ??? Must be Christmas ⛄🎄😁
that drawing around france
have you played with haliago boost? The soruce engine doen't have Dynamic Resolution like for Unreal egine and Haligo tries to be the man in the middle.
TAA for what I know blur the gameplay too much but with FRS this could be fixed meaby
Bought the tool. I wanna experiment with upscaling from 1080p to 4k and 1440p to 4k. Hopefully it'll help in games like Black Mesa.
FXAA sucks, but I've found it to be really good when combined with temporal anti aliasing. TAA on its own does not do very well with thin things that move and stop moving, as their width starts fluctuating and aliasing. When mixing it with FXAA's "blur everything into oblivion", it looks better somehow
@3kliksphilip - I am subscribed to all three of your channels and was a regular viewer, but I have not seen a video of yours in at least a month appear on my newsfeed. I thought today what's Phil been upto and I see you have still been uploading. I believe that I used to have the bell set to show all - now it is set to personalised?