Mesa Rectifier VS Modelers! (The Ultimate Comparison!)
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- čas přidán 26. 06. 2024
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Thanks for watching my comparison video of the MESA/Boogie Dual Rectifier (3ch) vs the Fractal Audio Axe Fx III, Line 6 Helix, Neural DSP Quad Cortex, Boss GT-1000, St. Rock Amperium Live, Headrush Prime, Hotone Ampero II Stage, Fender Tone Master Pro & Fractal Audio Axe Fx III! Let me know your thoughts in the comments below! Cheers!
Gear used in this video:
- Schecter E1 Apocalypse Red Reign
- Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier
- Fractal Audio Axe Fx III
- Line 6 Helix Floor
- Neural DSP Quad Cortex
- Fender Tone Master Pro
- St. Rock Amperium Live
- Headrush Prime
- Hotone Ampero II Stage
- Boss GT-1000
- ML Drums by ML Sound Lab
- Cubase 13 Pro
- ML Sound Lab Cabinet Impulse Responses
- Fractal Audio LB-2 X-Load
- Klotz Cables & DI Box
This channel is sponsored by:
ML Sound Lab: ml-sound-lab.com/
An original song of mine with me on vocals: • My First Song w/Vocals...
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#mesarectifier #modeler #comparison
Disclaimer: this video is not sponsored but I got some of these modelers as payment for videos. As always all thoughts and opinions are 100% my own!
Keywords: metallica, sonic drive studio, james hetfield, meshuggah, deftones, rhythm, guitar, amp, tube, modeler, line 6, helix, fractal audio, axe fx, fm3, fm9, hx stomp, tonex, neural dsp, quad cortex, gibson, les paul, custom, standard, esp ltd, phoenix, black metal, deluxe, 1000, ec1000, ec1000t, baritone, prs, mushok, 9-string, 8-string, ibanez, meshuggah m80m, fishman, fluence, seymour duncan, nw44, schecter, hellraiser, e1, apocalypse, ml drums, ml sound lab, grit, meld, cubase, slate digital, steven slate audio, phoenix-7 sc607b, sc608b, adam jones, will adler, tutorial, lesson, tones, settings, new, firmware, free, mesa boogie, marshall, orange, soldano, friedman, peavey, evh, laney, redseven, victory, wangs, lichtlaerm audio, walrus audio, engl, bluguitar, driftwood, hughes kettner, pedal, djent, death, rock, crunch, classic, ola, fluff, blackstar, randall, dsl50, jcm 2000, ds20hr, dsl1000hr, 6505, 6505mh, 1992 original, xxx, satriani, astro 20, slo100, diezel, vh4, vh2, ksr, revv, generator, jvm410h, jvm210h, jvm205, boss, tube screa,er v30, ownhammer, rock-box, essentials, low-tuned, bogren, sc20, sv20, plexi, jubilee, 2525, invective, mini, leviathan, iridium, mercury, preamp, jmp1, dual, triple, mini, rectifier, mk iic+, mkv, kraken, mkii, fireball, 25, 100, powerball ii, savage, special edition, founders edition, slash, 5150, iii, el34, 6l6, single, or15, tiny terror, dual terror, or30, ad30, rockerverb, 50, mkiii, purple, nightmare, archon, mt100, mark tremonti, tubemeister, black spirit, grandmeister, deluxe, toontrack, superior, ez, drummer, ironball, ironheart, ht, clob, venue, jj jr, emg, jb comparison, rig, capture, kemper, profile, free, preset, headrush, amped, digital, analog, hotone, ampero, roland, me90, leptop, daw, kreative devices, desktop, music production, mixing
I'm really impressed how the dual rectifier sounds exactly as a dual rectifier.
hahahahahahahahhahahaha xD
that post seems rectified! xD
The Tone Master model is based on a 1992 2-channel Dual Rectifier Solo head Rev F on the red channel with modern voicing, bold power amp mode and silicon rectifier. We were going for maximum 90's nu-metal vibe.
Thanks for the info! I always set min to bold as well
That's a curious decision.
You're a hero! one of the big difficulties of comparing rectifiers is that we can't know what models are being the original reference for that modeling. The same model of the same year of production sounds a little different from each other. The rectifier itself has changed a lot by it's versions, since 1992.
Great comparison!!!
Helix is a beast. Always has been.
Most of them sounded close, especially in the mix, but holy some of the dials on the modelers are set to extremes just to match.
Great video, as always.
It's the subtle frequencies of the Recto (and it's revisions) that for some reason seems to be so hard to capture/model. Everything nowadays is close enough to say, yep that definitely is a rectifier...but man, do I love the actual amp in all it's tube glory! Great vid, Jon!
Top 3 were the Helix, Fender and Axe FX in that order. Helix sounds the most rectifier-ish of the bunch IMO. The rest were like recto-adjacent but not really nailing the tone.
Which is amazing because so many Helix users (myself included) really struggle to make the "Cali Rectifire" model useable at all. It must be about the sound projection. The loose bottom end and sizzly top end are hard to project back at the artist from a modeled source. SDS Helix tests always sound better and closer to physical models than any sounds I ever get out of my PA system. I'm not sure how he does it.
@johnbeamon no magic. Just a good IR and some tweaking
Based on a 2001, 3 Channel Mesa/Boogie® Dual Rectifier® Solo Head. The Dual Rectifier® was part of Boogie's more modern, high gain approach for that "big hair" sound. In contrast to the earlier Boogies, the Dual Rectifier's tone controls have more influence at high gain settings, so you can scoop the mids and increase the bottom end. We used Channel 3 on the Modern setting for this one with the rear switches set to Bold and Tube Rectifier®, respectively.
(It's from helix website)
It's crazy how close they all get
How what? How close? Mhmmm, close
I always really enjoy watching videos like this!
I was shocked how accurate that tone master was
The fuck, indeed! What a twist!
It's crazy how close the Tone Master is to the real thing. If I didn't have a Quad Cortex already, I would definitely be eyeing the Tone Master now!
Amazing comparison! Thanks for it!
I liked the recto the best.
It sounds like a Recto
Those are pretty close, but you can hear small differences. Got my Badlander50 on monday and I’m loving it . Thanks for all the stuff you do for us 🤘🏻🤘🏻
Hi , the Headrush sound is terrifying the best is AXE Fractal and Quad Cortex Thanks for testing
Wow. What a great comparison! Can’t believe how far TMP has come after their latest firmware update. So close!
1- TMP
2-QC
3- Ax3
4-Helix
The others not even close
Helix and Fender sounded really close to the real amp. If the amp had a 3D sound, the others felt a bit flat, like 2D in comparison. Boss was different but still pretty impressive!
Fender TMP has updates and hot fixes, leap-frogging ahead. They just had a hot fix a few days ago. Sound and features are really making it a good purchase. People are impressed how fast and vast the improvements are.
Thanks for that rectabatte! Please share your DI guitar tracks and recorded rectifier tracks to us, so we can try to get closer.
For example ampero (with different poweramp and amp settings) and amperium (different tubes, power amp tubes and impedance curves and so on...)
After owning and using all of the modelers (besides the fender unit) I think that my conclusion is that they all can get a pretty decent approximation of the voice and vibe of amps but none of them get the feel of the amp 100% right and I'm okay with that because I get the limitations of the tech. I think even with a nice power amp or FRFR, the feel of the amp models are never an accurate recreation but if you remove the guitar cab and just focus on the DI sound of a real amp vs model/profile, the line gets blurred in a much more convincing way to the point where you'd be hard pressed to point out differences in a mix with other instruments.
All that is just a long winded way of saying "I think they're close enough for most people"
Helix and TMP sounded the best, not even necessarily because of accuracy, but overall tones were nice. I would almost choose either of those over the real deal. Headrush and GT-1000 didn’t really sound like the amp, but would be usable if need be.
For a studio with limited budget I'd pick any of these modellers. They simulate tons of legendary amps so well - especially in the mix. However, I used a lot of digital amps and for some reason they never gave me same satisfaction as a tube amp, when playing in a room. There is something special about tube amps, so pick your real Mesa, Marshall, Peavey... etc. tube amp, while they still exist. Great video John.
What got me closest to the Recto sound I was after was the Wavemind Rev F plugin. It really encapsulates that 90s rectifier tone. Can do the thick Cannibal Corpse tones too.
Amp still wins.
But this continues to make me happy about my purchase of the TMP
Great video, very informative, would have been great to see a two notes opus in there
I was really impressed with the Tone Master and the Amperium. The Boss sounded better than the Axe Effects in my opinion.
ML OS Almighty IR is my go to for years! Hell yes.
The Fender Tone Pro sounded 👌 🔥
4:11 Axe FX III
6:32 Quad Cortex
8:45 Ampero II Stage
11:05 Helix Floor
13:18 Amperium Live
15:33 Tone Master Pro
18:27 Headrush Prime
20:45 Boss GT-1000
The TMP sounded the most accurate to my ears. It was pretty dead on. I had a Headrush a while back and remember liking the recto models. Also had an Axe Fx II and thought it’s recto models were great with a boost.
I have an HX Stomp XL and was running it into my Triple Rec to test out the recto model and was amazed how close it sounded..
It just has this 3D sound with a resonance/Depth and especially presence/edge that cant be matched especially through a mesa 4x12. Love my Triple Rectifier from the early 2000s of which by the way I think might have been modded because my presence knob on the 2nd channel cuts out all presence "fizz" in modern mode when the presence is turned all the way up.. Super cool feature because I can get a whole range of sounds from it. 3rd channel is how it always is just brutal with a normal presence control. Anyways, Love the riffs and channel!
They're all strawberry flavor, the mesa is a real strawberry.
So it can go off, and rot.
Fractal Helix and Tonemaster pro the best
Fender surprised me, but slightly leaning towards the AFX. But dang... Can't go wrong with any of those.
They all sound so similar in the mix, the Amperium and Tone Master are indistinguishable in the mix
Great comparisons. To my ears, the general character of all of them save for the GT-1K are Rectifiers. The differences between them are within tolerances of the character of that particular amplifier. Roland I've noticed don't really strive for accurate modeling of specific amps, but go for modeling amp classes suitable for specific genre applications. Opinions formed from looking at the lowest common denominator may not be as valuable, but however different they are, I'm not sure any of them are really going to be mistaken for a 5150, SLO100, Invective, Fireball, VH4, etc.. I did favor the Helix best, mostly because the low end that I would tend to treat by attenuation to make it tighter is already tight, and I liked the mids on it that helped it to sit better in the mix, which mids we could just take out if we didn't want it, and I'd prefer to remove something that's there that I don't want than to try to add back in something I'd want that wasn't there in the first place.
Cool, next you could see how close you can get with the cloning units.
Quadcortex did the best job by far, in my opinion.
My other top two I blame on ear fatigue.
2) Fender
3) Amperium
The Ax Effects may have been better than my 2 and 3, but with fresh ears, it was too easy to pick out the differences.
Any would work in a mix or a live show, but none captured the magic of a tube amp.
I won't be surprised if Headrush Prime is still using the codes that were in the Avid Eleven Rack from 2009.
Fractal and Fender seemed to get the closest tones. Honestly they all sounded pretty good to me. The actual amp looks the coolest so I will declare the actual amp the winner. 🥇
Curious. Is the IR you're using from the ML Sound Lab Mega Oversize Cab Pack? I didn't see on the description of the site's pack that there are mixes. Just Mic placements.
That's the one
@@SonicDriveStudio They are stellar! I am using ML Soundlabs only.
You know the ampero sounded nothing like the real amp but it was still a cool tone that would be usuable in a lot of applications. I think people shouldn't get too hung up on whether or not a modeller sounds exactly like the real thing and just ask the question, is it a cool useable tone?
I agree 100%. It's all about finding a sound that works for you and the song.
I personally liked the tone of the ampero the best cuz it was a tight modern tone I go for. Definitely more how a rectifier should sound 😂
@@MetalheadOv666 😅yeah i liked it too, definitely tight and modern.
What year is that dual Rectifier Jon? Mine is 2003 and i don't use boost on red/3rd channel, but sounds kinda diferent. I know its different IR, hardware and so on. Just curious. Tks for the great videos you make for us 🤘🤘🤘
Early 2000s I think. Don't know the exact year rn
the real amp is a beast. the modeler's seemed to sound different when in isolation, like the bass frequencies are centred and top frequencies stereo. i don't know why, but the mesa was separated well with the dual tracking. noticed mostly on chugging section in isolation.
A century-old technology, but we can only imitate them. 🤣
It's pretty obvious the Headrush guys never updated the old Eleven Rack models. The only high gain amps worth a damn on them, IMO, are the Bogner and Powerball II. I really wish I could justify upgrading to the Tone Master.
I wrote the same comment then I saw your comment. Avid is a joke and everything they did is also a joke including pro tools and their interfaces.
In six months the new Tone Master update will be out. Six months after that even more updates. Justifying the purchase is more obvious all the time. They just had a hot fix last week.
Is the Rectifier impossible to model or not? Which modelers did you like the best here?
Fractal.
Fractal fo sho
I own several modelers myself and I have to say I get good results out of the Headrush Gigboard Recto model both modern and vintage. It shocked me when I heard your comparison so I tried using your settings shown on screen. They sounded shrill and unfocused no matter what IR I used. Im not saying make another video or anything but did you try putting a boost in front to tighten it up?
Happy to see the QC (which I own) getting so close, I wonder how profiling modelers would compare... 👀👀👀 Do it, you know you want to 😂😂😂
The only one I can speak to is the Boss. Having the sag control at -6 really goes a long way toward tightening up the low end, more modern. I got the best "Rectifier" sound by putting sag and resonance both at 5. Then again, I'm monitoring through KRK Rokit 8s and I'm listening to your video with a decent Hi-Fi system with a 250-watt Sub.
I got the impression with the first few amps that those were dialed by matching settings on the real amp but the Tone Master had the master halfway up vs the earlier modelers at very low master settings and the Headrush has the treble control dimed. There was obviously a need to match by ear, rather than just transposing settings from the physical amp. This is the really frustrating part about all this, as it seems most of these disparities could be lessened or overcome entirely by EQ and a little multi band compression. Not to mention the enormous differences people hear depending on their monitoring solution, CZcams compression and audio standards, etc.
used the same settings on the same model and revalver model and to be honest the headrush model sounded killer with the same settings, but closest pickup i had to yours is an invader in a squire mini with 12's. the revalver cab worked better than oob OH IR for a MB cab, but the revalver with the OH IR (-10db). gate set to -70db 10ms and -90 for light gating, guitar is tuned to drop B and i've no idea what your tuning is. might want to revisit the prime since it was really thick, but my comment on facebook stands, hope they improve in the next update.
hopefully what i tried here will work out better for a comparison, maybe i'll record and upload what i am getting later on. could try my x2n out in my gibby goth explorer, but it would sound about the same really. 14.4k, 15.83k (x2n) and 16.8k (invader).
Jon, could you do a tutorial for us at home about how to load up cabs sims and get them sounding the best with IRs? I always feel like I am mising a step. maybe a second channel for you? im planting the seed and hoping it grows! thank you!
TMP impressed me a lot, I'd put it at 1st place.
2nd Fractal Axe FX III.
I didn't like the others as much, I think the QC can do better with a good amp capture maybe.
Pleeeeaaase compare this amp to plugins with a rectifier as well! :)
Im pretty impressed at how well they ALL did. Dare i say the Ampero sat in the mix best to my ears? Theyre all great though!
Wooow what a comparison. You covered almost all of them. I guess there will be no accurate model for a rectifier 😂 these lows can’t be replicated 😂 the fractal sounded the closest to my ears tho. Also the Bogren revc plugin is pretty close to a real rectifier, minus the rectifier loose low end of course. Thank you so much for the amazing and informative comparison.
The Bogren seems really cool! Just wish it didn't have a boost
I think it's the power supply's dynamic source resistance, of valve rectified amps; that makes them impossible, to difficult, to model.
of course the 5U4GBs don't show up in the budget amps with the dual rectifier namesake applied to SI diodes, so I don't think those quite get it either. ( but they do have solid state rectifier replacements, so maybe they have that sorted in the analog realm )
I got a badlander just for the direct out and built in IR loader.
Absolutely love the Recto models on the Axe FX III. They're stellar.
QC recto sounds bad to me. Too much bass.
Ampero sounds like it has a blanket over the speaker.
I really wasn't expecting to like the Helix at all. I've never gotten along with it myself. But actually, even though it sounds different, it sounds epic.
(btw I also own a 2018 multi-watt DR amp!)
Amperium is quite cool. I don't know much about it, but it sounds good to me!
Fender TMP - I was actually shocked at how decent it sounds!!
The TMP sounded best, for sure. However, the modelers all sounded a bit flat to me, not as 3D. But that's something I always notice in these comparisons. I guess there's some stuff that you just can't fake. 🤔
🔥
Oh yeah! Axe FX, Quad Cortex, Helix and Tone Master are the winners here.
I love amp sims and modelers. My main live amp is a real EVH 5153 50w and everything nails it. Perfect copies..even the free plugins. So convenient. However, I also own a real Dual Rec for tracking bc it's never close. There's that like three harmonic Everlong chime to the gain that's never right. It always sounds like a Dual Rec vs "a modern gain amp". I think it's kind of how they stack in a chord, and also gets into how the last 10% of amp modelling we don't have would prob be like 50 bands of multiband compression and dynamic eq. It's always the hamburger cookoff from Parks and Rec for me.
Bump up speaker thump to around 6 and speaker compliance to around 64% and you gain some of that extra on the fractal.
Did you leave out the tone x platform because they have the licensed dual rec so it wasn't fair or what was the reasoning there?
Great video regardless!
No reason other than it's a "capture" device, rather than a modeler
@@SonicDriveStudio ah ok that's fair, thanks for the explanation!
@JodySinclair I have this Dual Rectifier in my Heavy Legends tonex bundle btw ;)
A very good comparison! However, I can say about the gt-1000 that it distorts the cabinet IR, it needs to be compared with a third-party impulse loader. Because of this, there are such problems at high frequencies, check it out for yourself and you will be surprised.
Gt-1000 is not designed to download high-resolution IR, even the Boss themselves said so. This is a very good theme for the next video!)
Interesting, I did not know!
The boss sounded great imo
I totally agree... I have always found the rectifier models to be the most inaccurate of the high gain amps. Must be a tricky one to model. I always loved the 5150 models.
I think you didn't watch the video then.
Which ones sounded close to you and which ones off?
@@detuneCris Nope. I did. My comment is not a reflection of Jons video but more of a comment about plugins and modellers of the past. I own 5 different versions of the rectifier and most plugins didn't sound like the actual amps. I always found amps like the 5150 were easier to model.
@@SonicDriveStudio I think the Ampere one was the "worst" sounding... I liked the QC and the Fender. Modelers seem to do a better job with the rectifier than the plugins I have found.
I would say the Mesa boogie is the closest and I think if they had a firmware update they could really push it to that 99%
Tonamaster smashed de other ones. Very impressive their rectfier
you should do a demo comparison with the " Weber WU4GB Copper Cap " ( do they sag like the real thing ? )
it would save you money if they do.
I didn't think the Fender low end was more pronounced at all, the tone sounded thinner, lost some body which I didn't like. I think the Helix won that overall, followed close by Axe-Fx, QC, and Fender. The Helix sounded like a rectifier and thicker than the others. The Boss tone sounded great, loved it, it just sounded different tho. But it was a good different, more scooped. The Headrush sounded different and crap.
With all the tones that got close, if you spend some time with a para eq, you could push them even closer. But you're splitting hairs at this point, even using the real amps, bands will have "different" rectifier tones using different mics, mic positions etc. The good models were perfectly close enough and very convincing, and that's all you need. No one listening to our music gives a shit that it might sound 3% different to a real rectifier amp. All you need is good tones, not necessarily the exact same tones. The Boss sounded a fair bit different, but no one would complain about that tone on an album. It sounded good, that's just all we really need.
The lack of Negative Feedback is what makes the Recto's Modern mode so hard to model. Same with AC30 and Tweed Deluxe. It makes the speaker cab interacts with the power amp's response a lot more than other amps. The SIC modelling becomes even more important.
Add to that the fact that Mesa toyed multiple times with the circuit, namely the value and taper of the Presence and Gain pots, and the transformers used, you can get multiple variations in the amp world which makes it hard to say what is "the" Recto sound. Heck, everyone says the Multi Watt sounds so much better than the regular 3 channels and yet the differences in the circuit are minuscule. The question then becomes more: does it sound good and is it enjoyable to play through?
I agree the lack of negative feedback is a big thing that determines the sound.
...and now is the time to reveal you mixed the audio tracks making it a blindtest with the video and eyes only to confuse ..... ; )
Not that my opinion should carry weight but here are my thoughts.
I think in the context of a mix all but a couple are better than passable.
The FAS to me lacked most in the lower mids, from the DR. But just like normal with FAS you can get a great tone with little tweaking.
The QC was impressive but to my ears lacked a little bit in “solidity”. To say that it sounded a little more spread out, but didn’t have that punch the DR does.
Ampero sounds like a modeler, it lacks in pretty much all frequencies. It doesn’t sound like hot garbage, but it just doesn’t connect. It could definitely still be used in the right context/rig.
Helix this one surprises me. I can NEVER EVER get my Helix to sound as good as you do. Where it lacks to me is in the mids, they sound too congested. In solo it also sounds too scooped.
The St Rock unit sounded much smaller and also like a modeler. Useable but probably the one I like least.
Fender unit sounds better than it used to. Something I’ve noticed with the Tone master demos is that the distortion sounds smeary.
Headrush the modeling of the Headrush is dated and it shows. In a mix it’s still usable but it lacks depth and dimension and bite.
Boss this also sounds like a modeler, almost like it was done by someone who hasn’t head a Recto but has only had someone describe what it should sound like.
my recto doesn't sound the same as my fm3 fractal running with the same impulse, it takes several adjustments to the fm3 to get a closer result.
All of the platforms need some adjustments. Imho that's fine, I don't mind tweaking some controls, that's what they are for!
The thing with Mesa DR in Helix is (that is so close to be perfectly accurate in this shotout!), the master parameter should be way higher to bring more low end flab from the real unit. In the video 'master' is at 1.7 only
It also closes off the top end
@SonicDriveStudio yeah, as I've checked out the master of DR in my Helix it's quite powerful, so just a little more it needed to make it recto-lowendish chug machine 😀
Axe, Helix and Fender were cool. But all of them sounds a little "sterile" and "mix ready". Not a bad thing of course, but still I have much fun playing live in front of an real amp, when I do it alone.
wow that TMP.. so close
Why is Hotone pronounced as Ho Tone and not Hot one?
Would love to find a good quad cortex model of this amp
It's in the video!
helix and tone master pro really surprised me
Waiting same video with ENGL powerball / savage
No Tonex?
Granny Smith vs Pink Lady.....you are the best! 🤣
@@ArchProjectionMusic haha!
That's the worst I've heard Ampero II sound in terms of gainier amp models. It was still a decent sound, just not as close as the others to the real amp. I was surprised how much I liked the Helix in this one, and also the Amperium. Fractal always sounds good.
Cortex is the VERY CLOSE in a MIX !!!!!
Analog forever!!
There's just something about a tube amp
RIP low-end extension
All plugins lack of high order harmonics. Yes, plugins are close but not the same. And I prefer real amp. It sounds better for me
Axe FX YES - Neural DSP YES - Hotone NO - Helix YES - Amperium YES - Fender YES - Headrush NO - Boss NO
No KPA...why? 🤔
Time stamps?
Forget about ToneX?
Tonex is excellent! It's a capture device though and this one is all about hardware amp modelers
@@SonicDriveStudio Yet, QC is also a capturer/player. ToneX should have been there since everybody is modelling amps using machine learning nowadays, except Headrush.
@@CemSaydam QC has capturing (which I love) but also amp models
A boss foi baseada no meteoro alemao do zozi
Yeah, the legacy stuff in the Boss GT units are pretty much useless, the X amps sound good though
Juggernaut!