Are the Crumbley Parents Responsible?
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- čas přidán 10. 12. 2021
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The shooter is guilty, but what about the parents James and Jennifer?
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Activision Blizzard thing heated up again, that's always a good time.
The upcoming Taylor Swift lawsuit over her song “Shake It Off”
Ghislaine maxwell trial
How come we don't hear as much about Timothy Simpkins.
hi
Regardless of where we stand on the legalities of their charges, I think we can all agree that attempting to flee the country while your 15 year old child is in jail on multiple murder charges shows just how awful they are as parents.
I wish they could be charged for being scumbags.
There is not enough evidence to form the opinion they were attempting to flee the country.
In murica? Try not running in country which puts punishment for revenge over rehabilitation. Good luck
@@robertp457 No, but they were definitely attempting to flee, which is in itself not a good look.
And they hired themselves an expensive lawyer and their kid has a public defender from what I understand.
Fyi, the school is now also being sued by the family of one of the surviving victims, a 17-year-old girl who was shot in the neck, and her 15-year-old sister, who was standing beside her (and was unharmed but witnessed her sister's injury). They're alleging that the school should have refused to allow Ethan Crumbley to stay in school that day, and should have searched his backpack.
Tracii Kunkel Children DO commit suicide at school. I attended two different high schools and at least 2 of my classmates committed suicide at school. My freshman year, a student found cleaning supplies and drank bleach. I don’t care enough to refute the rest of your comment, but you are wrong on that point.
@@MrBluesMessiah I've had my backpack ran through by teachers for absolutely no reason. The responsibility was 100% on the school to search his backpack at that point when they found his drawing. Parents did nothing wrong and you just want to point the finger at somebody
@Timothy Helley I'd like to know if the school asked the parents whether there were guns in the house. If they were asked, how did they answer? If that question was asked, I blame the school less. But if they didn't ask parents about guns in the house, the school is almost as bad as the horrible parents.
@@MrBluesMessiah I would agree that to me it would seem obvious that there's a much higher risk of successful suicide if a troubled teen is sent home to an empty house or parents that don't care about them, than if they are kept at school, with proper supervision. In hindsight it seems to me that he should have been kept in the councillors office all day, but that likely would have impacted their ability to do their job with other kids, so it's a tough situation imo
@@MrBluesMessiah yeh, it's a no win for the school! & in reality, I'm sure these situations happen all the time & the kid doesn't go on a shooting rampage in the 2 days before they get help. There needs to be time between identification & counselling beginning, that's just an unavoidable part of life & 90% of the time, nothing's going to happen because of it. Unfortunately this one was the exception :( In practical terms though, I think it's very limiting as to what other/better options they had
honestly, if a minor murders someone using a gun bought for them by an adult, the adult is also responsible. add to that "don't get caught" and "don't do it", and they clearly knew he might do this, and still did everything they could to enable him to do it. accessory to murder, at least.
Here's the the problem with this case,the boy is considered an adult and charged as such.If the law is charging him as an adult how can the parents be liable for what an adult does.
@@realisrealite5554 I mean, they could be charged for being an accessory to murder. They did buy the kid the gun and failed to do any form of counselling/therapy for the kid.
If your going to charge the parent, charge the school. If the parents can be charged school officials have to be charged too.
There is only one caveat against that view.
If the parent purchased the firearm and properly secured it in a safe storage device (secure gun locker or safe) that the minor child lacked access to, they cannot be held at fault.
We know, however, that was not the case, so this multiple firearm owner says to not throw the book at them, throw the entire law library.
When our children were growing up, I kept a number of firearms about, some within easy access, due to the neighborhood that we lived in. Handguns were secured, save for two, which were in open storage and would be missed instantly. I wasn't especially concerned about my hunting rifle, as someone trying to conceal a hunting rifle in 45-70 is a laughable exercise.
The kids never had access to the secured firearms, the open storage was in constant view of us and as said, would be instantly noticed due to how they were stored (a bright background was concealed by the firearm, think safety orange in a dark woodtone background) and plenty of paranoia was observed.
Yeah, especially since you legally cannot buy a gun as a gift for a minor.
I think the fact that they tried to flee, when the original charge was just that they didn't secure a gun properly, is evidence that there's something way bigger they're hiding.
I mean it could also be that they're scared/stupid? Humans aren't logical creatures
I live in Oakland County, Michigan where the shooting took place. The DA had openly announced she was considering charging these parents a couple of days before it happened. They were never going to indict just for failure to secure a firearm because that isn’t illegal in Michigan.
I do think that the school really messed up in this case. The resource officer for the school is an actual cop who was in the building and he wasn’t brought into the meeting or even notified about this Ethan’s disturbing drawing.
The murdered children were very successful and popular. Not a random sample. I do suspect that Ethan purposely singled out his victims. But I also suspect that his lawyer will try to plea insanity for him.
@@GoodnightJLH I agree with everything you have said. Just what is the purpose of having a resource officer on campus?
I think that the school and the parents are liable. Parents entrust their children to schools. They are charged with ensuring the safety and well-being of each student. If there was even a possibility that any student might be emotionally or physically harmed, the school had a duty to act. The fact that the student had altered the drawing was a red flag.
Everything that we have heard about the parents makes them look horrible. This is a prime example of when defendants should request a bench trial. If any of what we have heard is presented to a jury, they are in big trouble. The most incriminating factor in the flight debate is that the police did not know where they were. It would not have been odd for the parents to hide from the public and the press. But the fact that they did not inform the police of their whereabouts is pretty dispositive (as far as consciousness of guilt is concerned).
Their obviously troubled child was in jail. There was a serious possibility that he was in danger of being harmed (by himself or the families of his victims). One would have expected them to be in constant contact with the police.
Finally, I am not surprised that the victims were popular. One would think that a shooter would prioritize his targets by first looking for anyone who may have victimized him. Then anyone who he might be jealous of. Then whoever is nearest.
@@mervyngreene6687
Absolutely. But if he really singled out popular victims that shows premeditation and it isn’t consistent with insanity. It’s not like he was hallucinating that all the other kids were alien lizard people and he picked them off randomly.
@@GoodnightJLHThat is a very good point. These situations are usually complicated. I have another question. What if he didn't originally have specific targets in mind. But as he approached people decided to shoot this student, but not that one?
I think the fact that when they heard about the school shooting, they immediately assumed it was him, and sent a text saying “don’t do it.” Is pretty good evidence for the prosecution.
That's exactly what I'm thinking. They will more than likely get at least 6 months in jail. I don't see any situation where they could get acquitted other than if the prosecutors call in sick.
It's literally not. Neither the parents or the school (and the school officials are supposed to be the "experts" on this shit) thought the kid was going to shoot up the school. If the parents are liable then so should the negligent school officials.
@@jesusjuice7401 lol if you ignore negligent gun storage and the gun culture in their home which nurtured a mass murderer.
@@jesusjuice7401 The school asked them to take him home, and they refused, plus the school probably didn’t know the parents would buy their 15 year old a gun, so they didn’t think of him as an immediate threat, but again, the parents bought him a gun, and refused to take him home when the school asked.
@@miyuedelfelt2676 Totally agree with you. The school didn’t know about the gun. The parents did.
I think the "Ethan, don't do it" message is pretty damning.
Most school shooters' parents say they were completely shocked and had no idea. Turns out, the Crumbleys *absolutely* figured their kid was likely the school shooter.
While I think the parents share moral blame here, I don't see "Ethan, don't do it" as proof of guilt. It could easily have been a plea for him not to kill himself. Sure, they figured out it was their son, **after** they heard there was a shooting. That's not the same as "should have known" in advance. This is not a slam dunk.
Will the state pass a law holding people liable for inadequately securing a gun? If there had been such a law, I think it would have been a much easier case against the parents.
Probably not as damning as you might think. The key fact here will be if they could have predicted their son would start shooting people, not a hindsight deduction of given a shooting occurred, that their son is the perp.
I think she was thinking he would commit suicide after the killings and she was referring to that. They already knew he shot people.
@@markday3145 were there not kids who refused to go to school that day for fear of a situation just like what happened? The indications were there that he was likely to do something, the parents and the school should have had some level of foresight and taken precautions.
Well, they had been at the school just shy of two hours beforehand discussing the drawing and wether or not their son was a danger to others. So I mean, even if then they were still convinced he wasn't... As soon as they heard the news the assumption that it must have been him was not at all far fetched IMO...
That no one looked in his damn nap sack is utterly mystifying to me. If I had just bought a gun “for” my son, and I was called to school and told he was shopping for ammunition, drawing pictures of murder and writing his life was worthless - ALL things these parents were told at the school meeting, the very FIRST thing I would have done is ASKED my son if he had the gun in his bag, and then I would have searched it no matter what he said.
It would be understandable if they had had a gun in the house for ten years if it did not occur to them… but literally DAYS after buying a gun specifically FOR him? That Ought to have been the very first thing that popped into their heads. These people may not get convicted in criminal court- but they will l;one everything they own or ever will own when the families of the murdered and maimed get thru with them in civil court. And they damn well should.
1. I love that this channel exists
In a sea of pundits, having someone with actual legal expertise tackle these issues is amazing.
2. U make all your content very informative without being too dry and boring.
I am very happy to have found your channel
He does seem to actually care about the basis of the law and the reasoning without bringing bias. He is just stating facts related to the laws.
Apparently people don't know what pundit means. Devin IS a pundit. He's just a good one in a sea of bad ones.
@@prismglider5922 No one said he isn't a pundit. You just have poor reading comprehension.
The mom saying “don’t get caught” is what is gonna sink their ship. I can almost guarantee they will get charged because of this, but the school should also be held responsible for not searching the kid.
Does the school have the authority to physically search a kid against the kids will?
@@jarls5890 obviously I’m not a lawyer, but I believe because of the circumstances presented, and he had already shown intent (remember the violent drawing and the Instagram post), and the gun was missing from the parent’s house. It wouldn’t be unreasonable to search this kid in this instance.
@@jarls5890 The note and stuff leading up def gave them enough to search his belongings (which is where they would have found the gun). The bar for schools searching lockers and bags is typically "reasonable suspicion" in schools -- in practice for better or worse you need very little to meet that standard. A basic patdown would also be permissible.
That text, given the timing, likely has ZERO relation whatsoever to the shooting or firearm. It could literally be that he snuck extra dessert when he wasn't supposed to and the mom simply letting him know he wasn't as sneaky as he thought in a way that made it clear she wasn't actually mad.
EDIT:
Missed context on the text. Still maintain the 'don't get caught searching about ammo at school' was not some form of evidence of guilt. It was an acknowledgement that he was excited about his new gun and may look up info related to it at school, while requesting he not cause issues in doing so.
Without personal experience with the families in question, it is BEYOND silly to make the immediate claim that this was some sign of guilt or awareness. I know with my parents, 'don't get caught' was a warning for 'don't do x' delivered more gently. It was often scarier than a flat 'don't do x' warning, because the implication there was that they'd be pissed if they had to deal with whatever I messed up.
find out where she was when sending that text, by phone gps, if home she could have taken the child home also the husband called 911 when gun was missing.
The fact they instantly knew it was him being the shooter when they heard there was a shooter proves they knew more then they have let on.
Not really, people say stuff they don't mean everyday, it's just a shock when that happens. No parent is going to call the cops on their kids for saying they're going to do something that isn't likely to happen, or so they think.
@@kingelvis19 but they did call the cops cause they knew it must be thier kid.
@@theendofit they said their gun was Missing.....
@@kingelvis19 The parents learned about a shooting at the school they know their son is currently at, the mother texts her son "Ethan. Don't do it". The father called 911 stating his gun was missing and he believed his son was the school shooter.
So I'm really not sure what you're trying to argue here.
@@kingelvis19 they rushed home to check when they heared there was a shooting cause they new it was him
In my country, Spain, the parents ARE legally responsible for the acts of their children as long as they are minors. No better way to make sure parents take care of their child behavior than focusing on their responsibility to raise their kid.
Of course, minors also face consequences for their actions!
That's common in the whole of Europe, especially in the EU. I'm eastern European and any parent would freak out if they saw their kid with a device capable of killing people.
@@Adrian2140 I don't like to be "patriotic" but yeah, I'm definitely happy of being European instead of American.
@@saulitix Same here... The us is amazing culturally and has infinite potential but man they have some strange ideas regarding sensitive subjects.
@@Adrian2140 - oh my...the US is culturally amazing? Yeah, if you like the culture of guns, rodeos, nascar, red meat, fireworks, the American flag, the national anthem, football (the US kind), pretending slavery wasn’t that bad, limiting the study of language to English, keeping people out of the country, making everyone be christians, violence, racism, hatred, intolerance, and forced pregnancies, then you’ll LOOOOOVE the amazing US culture we have here...I always thought we had infinite potential, but I don’t anymore. Trump and the magas and our government and the last 6 years have destroyed my hope for our potential. As for our “strange ideas about sensitive subjects”...yes. That is accurate. Thank the founders and framers for that one. We’re STILL an “experiment” and they didn’t give us much to go by...but they did give us a BILLION things to fight over every damn day...it’s freakin EXHAUSTING living in this country, I have to say...
@@namelia4439 It's exhausting living on Earth and towards the east it only goes worse. I agree the US has major issues right now where the people are only a product companies can make use of but I am hoping the pendulum will swing the other way.
There's far more to the culture than guns and nascar... Some of my favorite artists, writers, game developers and metal bands are from the US. If you have not been exposed to them I think you should be.
I'm not sugar coating things, the US is in a tough spot right now, but as an eastern european that has had it way worse in terms of human rights and religion (orthodoxy or you're a weirdo) please forgive me but you're complaining about first world problems. Hang in there, find the people you can associate with, get into politics to create an actual left wing and make your country better. I'd friggin kill to be born a westerner and it's disappointing to see people wasting this opportunity.
The one thing that no one ever talks about when it comes to these tragedies is that there’s always so much media exposure to it and notoriety given to the killers. I would actually bet that if they knew that they wouldn’t become famous/notorious for it, they would find an alternate way to get the attention and help they need without anyone being senselessly murdered. Putting these stories on tv and CZcams so much, they get the idea that they can do it too if they are desperate enough while also struggling with mental deficiencies.
I don't think it would stop them, but certainly may reduce them yes. I think most countries have policies on not glorifying suicide, in mine, when someone dies of suicide, the death may be reported if it's public interest/famous person, but the only way you'll even know it's suicide is by the report saying "if you are having emotional distress, please call lifeline on ......", along with links to all the emergency phone suicide help numbers. This doesn't stop suicides though, but certainly may reduce them.
In terms of shootings, where I live, wherever possible their name is not used. Generally it's reported as, say "a shooting left 3 people dead, such & such, such & such, such & such an the shooter all died", with such & such being the victims names & photos & stories of their lives are shared, "the shooter" is referred to just as that & discarded as them being irrelevant to society, with no information on him shared. In some cases the name is used during trials, but it's kept to a minimum & once they're jailed, they're left to rot in jail & we never hear about them again, only hear about the victims families. Anniversaries etc of the shootings are about remembering the victims, again the shooter is not mentioned. Tbh, I think most countries largely do this, even America. I certainly couldn't tell you who did the shootings at events like Sandy Hook, I only know about the victims
@@mehere8038 That is a fair point, but guys like this kid, Dylan Roof, etc got A LOT of media exposure as well
@@mehere8038 To your point about the names being listed in trials, (as far as I know, which is little, mind you) the names of anyone relevant to the case are brought forward for legal purposes
The media loves to glorify everything. If it causes more terrible things to happen then that means more ratings and more people looking at their ads. They don't care about the community or the people who have died, they only care about money, and that will never change.
There is a trend beginning and some grass root advocacy for media outlets to not name or show the suspect. For the Buffallo shooting (may 14, 2022-racially motivated-insane i need to identify which shooting) a show in cnn at the top of the show stated they would only name the shooter once.
But goodness… the fact that ‘people’ (you know i am talkin about) think that mass shootings are just a way of life and refuse to address the issue is heart breaking..
I just wanna say, as a teacher working in Michigan approximately 45 minutes away from Oxford, this whole ordeal has been absolutely shattering to all teachers and students in this state and the epidemic of copycat threats has been appalling. Over a dozen students are under investigation in Genesee County alone.
So sorry for what you are all going through. I too am worried about the copy cat stuff.i think the media should keep reporting to a minimum so that kids wouldn't see this as a way to notoriety. So no names, no details about the shooter or family, no specific location (state only) and not a bunch of repetitive coverage. Briefly state the minimal facts and leave it at that
Yep a couple kids at my local high school posted a fake threat on social media and they have been arrested and are (thankfully) being charged with making terroristic threats.
I respect all you do, but I firmly believe we need to go back to small one room schoolhouses and homeschooling, a bunch of kids packed in together vulnerable in a huge well known location, is a recipe for disaster.
This whole system is just god awful at protecting kids and is failing terribly
We need full access to healthcare, thats not tied to income or employment. The amount of children and adults in this country with treatable mental illnesses that lead to tragedies like this is far too high, and has been for far too long.
so much for "an armed society is a polite society" eh?
The kid was emotionally distressed and needed help and his parents just enabled his worst impulses and then ran away when the inevitable happened. I blame them.
I blame parents and school but legal no clue of any charges will stick. I think parent thought he'd just kill himself and they didn't care. Why didn't they go to the school to get him? Letter literally said about thoughts won't stop and help me.
And school should kept him with the counselor and talked to him.
This is why my high had NYPD roaming the halls. Also had metal detectors, x-ray machines, and random pat downs when u came in. Things happen and kids wouldn't be in counselor office for awhile talking. The entire day. Or like if caught in hallways during class theyd make u leave the school right out nearest door.
He didn’t need help he needed his parents to remove all the bullets from his clip except one.
That kid is a monster and I hope they never let him out.
And the kids who lost their lives are just a whisper
@@Jmack1lla in Germany, the parents would be legally accountable. When you have a firearm here, you are responsible and accountable to ensure that no one but you has access to it. You have to keep your firearm and ammunition in a safe, that no one but you can open.
I worked in JJ/expulsion diversion with a kid who was very much like this, but the school called the cops and expelled him. His parents knew he was dangerous. His parents bought him an AR at 16. And in spite of his mother being a teach at his school, his parents fought tooth and nail to prevent ANY intervention or accountability, including basic counseling. I fully believe these parents were the recipe for this kid and need to be held accountable. Everything in their reactions screams negligence before the fact.
"You have to learn not to get caught." Wise parental advice...in a crime family!
How were the parents criminals prior to their kid shooting up a school?
No, it is wise parental advice for any kid growing up in the US. We are governed by corrupt criminals that kneel and swear fealty to money hungry corporations. Take what you can, crush who you will, but don't get caught. Be loyal to family, but no one else in the country should even be considered human, they are just a "mark" to get money from.
@@wvin1450 How sad for you to live in such an uncivilised third world society
As someone who grew up in a household with guns I actually found this kinda funny, I imagined my mom saying the same thing to one of us kids if we were searching stuff like that. My mom has NEVER encouraged us to break the law but in our house owning guns and ammo is a normal part of life and we were taught gun safety from the time we were little kids. I relate to some of these circumstances because for most families that own guns it wouldn't be a concern at all to search for a gun or ammo online. That being said, none of us have ever drawn imagery depicting someone being shot or fantasized about shooting anyone.
@@katiekilgore6319 Same here! The guns were just lying around and my brother and I knew what would happen to us if we were caught with one. (Definitely would not include cookies and milk.) We both were taught gun safety as well. Always assume the gun is loaded no matter what, keep fingers off the trigger while cleaning and loading, that kind of thing.
“The school and parents concluded he wasn’t a threat to himself or others…” My question is, is either party qualified to make that assessment? Can one posit that they should have brought in a mental health professional/counsellor into the fold to talk to him first?
As a teacher in a large district the answer is ridiculously complicated. In most cases the school can merely make suggestions to the parents especially if it’s related to mental health unless there is a school based psychiatrists or psychologist. It amounts to: “Hey we’ve observed these concerning things and really think you student should receive more help than we can provide.” The parents can absolutely refuse to do anything about it. Even behavioral evaluations have to be approved by parents (there is a way around this in some places but it is very difficult). Unless a students behavior violates school policies in a way that rules state will result in a suspension there is pretty much no one but the parents who can remove the student.
Teachers, counselors, admin and other staff can report behavioral concerns or other evidence of issues (like teachers here did) but they must be formatted as neutral observations. I found this art work referring to violence at this student’s desk. This student was researching guns.
These rules are definitely in place to protect students (especially those who cannot advocate for themselves) from malicious and negligent adults. In the end it also makes situations like this impossible on the school end.
If there's anything actively damaging a student's mental health, schools seem to make an effort to make things worse.
This is why the kid was supposed to see someone within 48 hours. It is not always possible to line up a professional within minutes. HOWEVER, the parents should have said, "we bought him a gun as an early Christmas present. We believe it is secured at home." And then they should have checked his bag, especially since there wasn't a gun safe in the home. AND the parents should have taken the kid home (assuming no one checked the bag), even if one or another of the parents had to miss out on the rest of their work day.
@@ithlium2284 what are the stipulations of removing a kid from class and putting them under surveillance?? is detention no longer a thing schools have during school hours?? from the way the school reports it the kid had no previous incidents and I assume the kid never acted in a suicidal way???
Most people with access to weapons or not that claim or appear to be suicidal should be put on a 24 hr suicide watch on school or off. It just seems really weird that the school gets no blame but everyone wants to throw the book at the parents.
It would be nice to hear from a teacher what the school is/was able to do in this situation if anything. As an adult that was in the military I'm not sure if I would have left the kid without a "buddy". My only other thought is that the kid went into the bathroom immediately and came out blasting????
If the school came to such a conclusion, shouldn’t they be charged just like the parents? 🤔
Watching you for years, never once did I think my high school would be a subject of one of your videos. You hear about this happening so often, but never think it'll happen in your town. The whole thing is sad
I’m so sorry this happened.
Jesus man, I'm sorry. Hope you're doing okay in all of this.
Holy shit man. Hope you don't suffer from "survivors guilt". That must play havock with your mental health.
Hope you’re doing ok ❣️
I grew up in a surrounding agrarian county. I was nearly shot in school 3 DECADES ago. Don't think that just because it is not an urban or even suburban school that it can't happen at yours.
Providing a firearm for your child and leaving it unsupervised, and the blatant disregard of obvious cries for help makes me feel the parents atleast need charges that keep them from legally owning firearms and ammunition.
Edit: i don't beleive they kept it locked, especially since dad called that he was missing a gun after the shooting had begun.
Shows you are a leftist who wants to ban guns so shut-up
That mom saying “LOL learn not to get caught” really gets under my skin more than it probably should. Even without that, I would still feel they had culpability in all of this, but the callousness she showed there to me speaks volumes about her as an irresponsible parent, gun owner, and adult. Her attitude surely played as much of a role in all this as the access she and her husband afforded him to weaponry. There is blood on her hands.
For sure. Though I also wonder how many people have the same blasé attitude towards guns, but just don't say it out loud. I don't think her attitude is that rare.
He was 15. He should NOT have had free access to firearms. I was raised with firearms, went shooting, supervised by my father routinely as a child, BUT, until I was 18, I wasn't allowed any unsupervised access to my firearms. The parents ABSOLUTELY share some responsibility here.
Anon Nymous --- But his parents did not really love him; thus the gift of a gun to a mentally unstable boy.
He also shouldn't be charged as an adult. It's funny that you can't smoke or drink until you're a certain age but if you commit a crime then the law can effectively make you whatever age is most convenient for the prosecution.
I'm kind of with you on this. However, if this is true, then he should be charged as a juvenile. You and I think he couldn't be trusted as he is fifteen and should have been subject to restriction and supervision. It seems to me that it follows that he can't then be held responsible as an adult.
That's my biggest issue here. If you teach your child to shoot, whatever. If you're going to have guns in the house, the least you should do is make sure the kids know how to be safe with them.
But it is absolutely ignorant to have guns in a place that kids can easily get to them.
I recommend watching The Lockpicking Lawyer. He's got some great examples on how absolutely useless most gun locks and locks in general are at keeping guns "locked up". This may give parents a false sense of security. 😔
I’m just tired of people in situations like this saying “ the unimaginable happened”. This horror is becoming so commonplace it’s cliche. Maybe actually having consequences for failing to act is where we need to be. Clearly, what we are doing isn’t working.
SO TRUE! These situations aren’t even shocking anymore, when you hear about them- these things are all too easily imagined, they are absolutely “thinkable” etc
Or perhaps actually protecting our children?
keep your sanity. these occurrences are extremely rare. Kids are still ungodly safe at schools. More likely to die by several orders of magnitude in a car crash or even lightening strike.
If only our country did something about the mental health epidemic. This whole situation is horrible. But the guy wrote "help me". Mental health needs to be taking as serious as any other illness.
@@robertsaget9697 "Extremely rare"? This is the 31st school shooting _since August of this year._
You make all the different types of offenses so easy to understand and I love when you back it up with examples from real life cases. Really educational
Honestly, any of these school shooting cases where the parents were the ones who purchased the weapon for the shooter, should have the parents receiving charges. Say what you want about gun control but parents should have to start taking responsibility for this nonsense. Too many of these cases we here that the gun was legally purchased for the shooter by a parent.
So if you gave some one your gun and they shot you then its your fault because you have them the gun?
@@JakeandOwen if you are a parent who is inchage of a minor
@@I_AM_HYDRAA your comment implies that the parents seem to know that their kid will shoot some one. Many many people get mad or have laps in judgment that own gun and never shoot anyone even people who have mental issues don't typically shoot people. The problem is the kid needs help and maybe the gun should have been hidden or locked. But if this kid wanted to kill then he would have gun or no gun
@@JakeandOwen yeah but he should not have been able to get the gun that is my whole thing
@@I_AM_HYDRAA yeah we all know car,knifes, and hammers kill people and I don't see anyone hiding or locking those away from kids. People are always so quick to blame the gun. This is another version that could have happen he could have stolen his parents car that they just bought for him and he could have ran over his class mates and in that scenario no body would be telling the parent they should lock up the keys
The defense: "he stored the gun safely."
No he didn't. Not even close.
Pulling $4k and skipping town is also going to look great in court.
Most locked drawers are trivially easy to open with a little bit of prying.
Skipping the fact I had no idea what this even was the parents are guilty. They definitely knew something and didn’t do anything to stop it.
@@markday3145 then it's not stored safely. Growing up, our guns were in a gun safe and we have trigger locks.
@@heathermarie5139 right so what happens if someone breaks in and you need a gun in a pinch? You gonna call timeout while you grab it out of the safe?
The reality that a teenager was able to get the firearm is by definition not safely stored.
I think a strong piece of evidence against the parents is after hearing of the school shooting one parent texted their son “Ethan, Don’t do it.” Which to me is evidence that they were well aware of his capacity to engage in a school shooting.
I heard that this particular text may have been sent after the shooting, to make themselves seem more innocent. But I think we may have to wait for the trial to know for certain.
I honestly think the "LOL I'm not mad at you. You have to learn not to get caught." is even worse.
Other thing to consider here is this could have been in response to what Ethan sent to his parents. As the school didn’t find an issue, and thought he was safe the same burden of responsibility would need to be applied to the school board, school counselor etc. since they sent him back to class. Sending a potentially suicidal child home ALONE also is not appropriate in any context. It’s the same as putting a suicidal patient in a room full of knives.
The mother probably realized it was Ethan who did the shooting. She could have been begging him not to kill any more kids or to not kill himself since spree killers sometimes kill themselves when their slaughter is done.
@@Frostbite08 If it’s just about ammo that’s not really a fair comparison. It would be like looking at knives/swords/inappropriate r rated devices/etc. It’s not appropriate at school but it’s nothing that can be taken as guilt especially since he went shooting at the range with his mother the day prior.
The fact that the counsular, and school administration deemed that Ethan wouldn't harm others based on his Demenor and Behavior, is scary. Meaning, how calm Ethan was even tho he knew what he was going to do later that day.
Absolutely! From what I had read, the gun had been in an unlocked dresser drawer in the parent's bedroom. Allowing a teen to have unrestricted access to a gun, unsupervised is just plain irresponsible. When you have a child, you are responsible for their actions.
In europe firearms have to be stored in a gun safe and ony be acsesable by the induviduals with a furearm license
If their lives were being threatened, couldn't they just... hide out at a hotel, or maybe the home of a friend or relative out of town? Why would they need to withdraw buttloads of cash and sneak into a warehouse where absolutely no one would see them? Looks incredibly suspicious. Also Jennifer's "You have to learn not to get caught" text... yeah.
They could also just call the police. I'm sure they would want to keep the suspects alive!
And besides, the only reason to flee with that much cash on hand is if you're afraid your account will get frozen
They could have crossed the belarus border illegally, and asked for assylum in that country.
@@wessltov jail would be safe
You have to think like an insane off-the-grid person: most hotels do not accept cash, and even if they do they do require a credit card for incidentals. It is increasingly difficult to stay anonymous, which to be clear, I don't care about. I've more or less resigned myself to a post-privacy world. But putting myself in the mindset of the kind of left-behinds who think that privacy means something nowadays, they didn't want to get skip-traced to a hotel because they ran their credit card.
"You have to learn not to get caught" was after he got caught looking up ammo while at school. That's not really a huge deal in the context that they were going to the shooting range.
When there was a school shooting in Germany some years ago, the father of the perpetratot was charged as an accessory, because it was his gun and he had failed to keep it secure. Gun rights come with serious gun responsibilities in Germany.
Good to hear!
Which case was this ?
@@CherryDiMilo Winneden near Stuttgart in 2009
As it should
@@Jmack1lla and that's awesome
I've seen a number of people argue there was lack of discipline here, but I would counter it was not discipline that was lacking, but rather lack of support. These were likely parents who either weren't paying attention to the underlying meaning of what their son was telling them or were ignoring their son altogether.
The note the son wrote was a cry for help. It was an indication that his concerns and insecurities weren't being taken seriously - possibly being told to get over it rather than being given solutions or support. The evidence of this can be seen in the mother's text message indicating that "she wasn't mad - but he should get better at not being caught". She completely disregarded the message.
I have been waiting for you to do this breakdown, thank you!!!
The fact that mom's reaction to her kid looking up ammo at school was "lol don't get caught" is horrifying. She clearly wasn't taking any of this seriously until it was far too late.
I wouldn't have any problem if my child was looking up ammo and I had just purchased them a weapon, because I would have already covered all the points of gun ownership. Any hint that my child would be irresponsible, I would not buy them, or allow them to possess, a weapon. Same with vehicle ownership. If my daughter is irresponsible behind the wheel, she ain't drivin'!
Having stated that, I think it has come out this this boy has mental health issues and had been hospitalized for those issues. As such, WHAT IN THE SAM-HELL WHERE THE PARENTS THINKING GIVING THIS BOY A WEAPON! And then not checking his bag, etc, etc. Just complete numbskullery. And that's why I'm not opposed to the prosecutors charging the parents in this situation. And the school bears some responsibility in that as well.
yeah, that is totally an inappropriate thing to say to your kid who got caught goofing off on his phone in class!
That should really be enough, right? Who says that?
@@vidard9863 uh, "goofing off on his phone" you cannot be this dense
@@Machtyn it’s not that he was looking up ammo, but the levity of the mother’s response. Instead of redirecting like “You need to pay attention in class!” she implicitly tells him it is fine for him to engage in antisocial behavior as long as he is not caught. School hours is not the time to be looking up ammo or weapons.
Love your legal perspective on real cases. I didn't have a clear understanding of involuntary versus voluntary manslaughter. Now, I do. Love learning; thank you.
What's with the exclamation points on every text bubble?
@@asherwhitney3263 WTH....I didn't use any exclamations. 🤔
@@asherwhitney3263 I'm not seeing the exclamations either. Might be a visual bug with youtube
@@mistyrose8527 I think they meant in the video whenever a text bubble came up to explain the meaning of a charge there was always an exclamation.
hell yea, i love learning too
You give the best breakdowns of these situations and stories. I'm just going to start waiting a week and seeing what you have to say about what's going on.
As usual Great informative video!
Oxford is very close to where I live. There have been over 10 copycat threats in the area I live. Most school districts have moved online until the holiday break due to this, though luckily there have been multiple arrests due to this. Everyone I know is traumatized by it. This needs to stop. I'm scared for my loved ones and myself.
Why aren't children better protected at schools? Why aren't bags checked at schools? Why aren't there metal detectors?
@@robertp457 Metal dectectors? This is the US, most of our schools can't afford to fix a leaking roof. I have my degree in Education, left because I could never pay my loans back at that salary. Living far better working as a Target casheir in TN than I ever did as a teacher in Michigan. Best you'll get out of most places is a requirement for clear backpacks.
@@maromania7 That's why we need to fund the education system more and pay teachers more
@@robertp457 there are metal detectors and cops in some schools. It generally does not help the psychology of the students to be treated to like inmates though. I don’t recommend it
@@earthboundman5 People aren't going to want to do that. As far as I know, schools are funded through taxes. Americans don't want to pay more taxes.
One thing that isn’t very well known but I personally think will aid the prosecutors case is that Ethan (the shooter) has a history of mental health issues and has also been held at a mental health facility at least once in the previous few years, even being put on suicide watch, and the parents still saw fit tu purchase a firearm for him. Also, the superintendent is named Tim Throne, not Tim Thorn.
Source: I live in the affected community, and one of my siblings has a friend who was held in the facility at the same time as the shooter.
That’s an excellent point. A gun in the house with someone with mental illness, significantly increases their risk of suicide. What were the parents thinking gifting their ill son a gun?
@@LadyScaper possibly that it might ensure them a slightly less burdened life in Canada.
What's so different from the parents of that young man than 'our own government that takes OUR CHILDREN and sends them off to the Middle East to enforce the 'religious' insanity of the cult that claims that insane clown they invented chose only them and gave land only to them. WAKE UP and take back America from the stupid and the insane before we remain the colony of the zion state in the Middle East, that THEY call that insane clown, GOD.
@@joemagnets9940 Are you okay? This comment seems pretty disconnected from anything else going on here.
@@joemagnets9940 objection, pure insanity
If the school had suspected that Ethan had a dime bag of weed, they would’ve searched his bag, his locker, and they would’ve brought out the drug dogs to search the whole area. That same energy needs to be used when dealing with deadly weapons.
The reason the parents were charged was their negligence in making a straw purchase of a weapon, and giving it to their minor child who cannot legally own or possess a weapon until HR is 18. That, along with all of the other obvious evidence, they should be found guilty. This tragedy could have never happened if they had never illegally purchased the weapon for their child. They knew that this could happen, and still broke the law ignoring the consequences by purchasing the gun for their child. They are responsible for this tragedy, and should be prosecuted for their crimes. They also abandoned their child once he was arrested, and tried to flee prosecution. Then they each hired a high powered lawyer for themselves, but not for their child. They haven't even spoke to him since he was arrested, he's still their child, and at the minimum they should make sure he gets good legal representation to ensure that he gets treated fairly in court. They just act if he's dead to them now.
in the court, it's only what you can prove. i agree with everything you've said. Even so they will walk.
also: they're heartless bastards that only care about themselves. no wonder why the kid is so screwed up.
Uh, no. It is not a 'straw purchase' when the gun is kept and secured legally by the parents. A minor very much can have guns bought for them without it being illegal, simply because legally speaking, an unemancipated minor doesn't actually own any property. All their stuff belongs to their parents/legal guardian. If such a purchase was truly illegal, there would be a LOT more arrests and the concept of youth rifles wouldn't exist. I'm in a state where rifles aren't legal for those under 18 to purchase, nor for them to be given, loaned, or rented to minors. The difference is, that even as a 'birthday present' there is no falling afoul of the law, so long as the intent of that purchase is that it A, remain a possession of the adult, legally speaking, until such time as the minor becomes of age, and B, that the minor be supervised when using it, IE, have the gun's actual owner present. I got my first rifle when I was 14. It was kept locked in a safe unless we were planning to take it to a safe location for practice, and was treated as a priviledge to use. The agreement was that while I didn't 'own' it, it would not be used by anyone else or otherwise messed with, without my permission.
Handgun laws can differ, but my state in particular runs the same rules regarding use of a handgun by a non-owner as they do rifle, last I checked.
You don't have to declare the intended recipient of the purchase, when you aren't intending to immediately transfer possession of the firearm. If things worked the way you want them to, you'd have to declare at time of purchase if it was possible for a firearm to be passed down to other family members years down the line or if the owner should die or W/E.
There is no negligence there, as at the time the gun was bought, there was no obvious cause for alarm. You are NOT required to declare when the purchase isn't intended to leave your possession into that of someone else. Which it, legally speaking, wasn't. There is a big difference between 'buying something for your child' and your child actually OWNING that item with unfettered and autonomous access.
Given the parents claims of said gun being kept in a locked location, they could at worst be charged for improper storage of the firearm. Unfortunately, things get politicized to an unholy degree by morons, so charges that make no sensible logic often get filed on the prosecution's belief that they can rely on emotional sway for a conviction, rather than the actual facts of the situation.
The gun was purchased BEFORE the 'warning signs' were discovered. When said warning signs were addressed, said parents were told by what they believed to be a responsible authority (namely the school counselor and principal) that said authority didn't believe there was a legitimate threat. You are arguing that the parents should be omniscient, and that them not being omniscient makes them criminals. There is zero logic or rational thought in your idea, it's simply knee-jerk reaction based around emotional response, placing blame and making SEVERE accusations without any form of logical backing.
Yes, it's very strange and concerning that the parents immediately obtained lawyers for themselves, but left their child without further support. On that same note, they could very well be agreeing that their child SHOULD face punishment and their lack of further support is an attempt to let things be handled properly without interference by a compromised party (namely, the parents), while lawyering up themselves is not particularly unreasonable, given the charges being filed against them are a bit ridiculous given the known elements of the situation. Them 'hiding' does also look strange, but are you telling me if you were told the police wanted to arrest you for something someone else did, you wouldn't be wary of going to the police? ESPECIALLY given the trends around what someone else did and the recent REPEATED spurious and excessive charges leveled toward things involving firearms?
My take would be that the parents grabbed some money and 'hid in a warehouse' to get in contact with lawyers for advice before making any further moves, not realizing that simply doing that in and of itself would cause emotional idiots to immediately label them as guilty of serious crimes.
@@jtnachos16 it wasn't kept and secured, lol
Legally he could own it
@@jtnachos16 Virtually no one's first warning signs happen the day they break. I would guarantee he showed other signs before the drawing & searching ammo at school. Whether they were picked up on and dismissed or just not recognized is another thing.
it blows my mind that they would abandon their child in jail, leave him to fend for himself with a public defender, all the while the parents immediately retain expensive counsel for themselves. it would not surprise me if there was violent abuse in that household. i fully blame the parents in this case- i think just a little more digging will find what horrible people they are domestically. their child needed help- a literal picture that says 'help me' and their answer is 'everything is fine, send him back to class.'
I was kind of thinking the exact same thing. I don't like to accuse people of things without evidence, but they saw his literal cry for help and said no thanks, and sent him back to class. Neglect at it's worst.
Right, their actions actually make me feel like he shouldn’t be charged as an adult. I feel like it’s going to come to light that circumstances in the home played a major role, which to me seems counter to the adult charge. What he did was horrible, but there is a reason we charge juveniles as such.
Well there's no plausible return on investment on hiring an expensive lawyer to defend a quadruple murderer.
No matter how much money they spend on their kid's lawyer, he's not going to be found not guilty. Using their expensive lawyer budget on themselves, however, could save them from an involuntary manslaughter charge that is contentious enough to win against.
@@JessieBanana Well, the prosecutor did answer this by saying that charging him as a minor didn't adequately alleviate the risk that he would get released at age 21. If that's true, the risk seems too great. Even if say it was found out that situations at home or anywhere led him to this, he still did it, and it's hard to believe that urge will be gone.
Fun fact: in California, if you get drunk, get behind the wheel, and kill someone, you are charged not with manslaughter but with murder.
That's one California law I actually agree with.
Fun fact: In California, if you have AIDS, don't disclose it to a partner, and give it to them, you aren't charged with a felony.
@@SolidBladeSnake that's not fun :(
Driving is dangerous enough while sober and everyone knows the dangers, that doesn't change if you're drunk. If you still get behind the wheel while drunk knowing all that, I agree that it shouldn't be involuntary manslaughter.
@@SolidBladeSnake that one is a bit sketchy though imagine you didn't know had an STD
Gotta give respect to @Legaleagle. He never states a specific side on these sorts of public cases. He just presents the legal facts and the legal issue as it is in a fascinating and educational way. No rants. No expounding.
He's like what the news should be.
very interesting . thank you
They deserve to face justice.
They armed the shooter. They reacted to the shooter seeking to buy ammo by advising him to hide his purchase without asking why he was buying ammo behind their backs. They refused to allow the shooter to be removed from the school. They did not do anything to ensure the gun wasn't stolen, nor did they inform the school that the shooter was potentially armed. They waited until after the shootings to report the theft of the gun, and to send txts to establish their alibi. They then hid from the police and refused to turn themselves in voluntarily.
They knew he was dangerous, and they made him more dangerous.
Looking up how to buy ammo isn't really that big of a deal. Especially in a hunting community like where this took place.
@@TheBlockerNator it isnt alone, but its compiled on top of other things its the
"someone walking behind me isnt going to do anything" defense
sure alone its nothing, but now its nighttime, now its in an area not many people travel, now its dark, now its in a time where there have been recent muggings in the areas, now its a time where youre alone and unarmed. EVEN if that person is harmless, youll still feel differently towards them.
@@TheBlockerNator If he owned a gun legally, it wouldn't be a big deal. It is a big deal because the ownership of the gun is in dispute. If the father's claim that the gun belongs to the father is honest, then the shooter did not own any guns. Buying ammo for a gun he doesn't own, behind his parent's back is a warning sign they clearly ignored. Alternatively, the gun belongs to the shooter, in which case their failure to inform the school of this was a clear case of wrongdoing, especially with the mother's instructions to not get caught buying ammo for a gun he should not have had. Either the father lied when he reported the gun stolen to dodge responsibility for arming the shooter, or the parents lied by not telling the school their son owned a gun.
@@TheBlockerNator Maybe not, but when the tool is a handgun, there's only one kind of animal that you might hunt with that
@@wessltov what are smaller animals hunted with? I'm not that into guns so unaware of the usual culprits for animal hunting
While I can't comment on their responsibility I can tell you this....
From their actions since, they have shown themselves to be horrible people and even worse parents.
That was a nice presentation. Good way of presenting the existing law.
A question for you counselor:
There’s a CZcamsr out there Marc Rober, who is an engineer and builds various, pretty cool, things. I highly recommend his channel. For the last few years, every Christmas he has made bait packages for porch pirates, left it on various porches, and recorded the results, which are usually hilarious. The packages vary by version, but generally play pre recorded audio, have several cell phones as cameras to record and provide GPS data for recovery, and spray non toxic fart spray. My questions are:
1) If a person were to open such a package, illegally obtained as it was, in their car, and happened to be injured in an accident due to being blinded by glitter, would Mr Rober be subject to any criminal or civil penalty? Could a bait package be considered an attractive nuisance?
2) If a third, totally innocent party, such as a pedestrian were injured or god forbid killed, would the person who laid such a package share in the criminal or civil liability for that?
Thanks for all your good work!
My totally unqualified take:
If someone buys a soda and opens it in the car, and it sprays out when they open it, is Pepsi responsible for any accident that might occur? No - barring some failure on Pepsi's part like ridiculously overcarbonated sodas, Pepsi acted with due care, and the driver's responsibility is to not engage in distracting activities while driving. Opening packages while driving is dangerous.
2. I believe that as long as the package is rigged to glitter when opened, and doesn't explode on its own, the driver would be at fault. He took his attention off the road and hands off the wheel to open stolen packages. What if he opened a legitimate package full of bees, or some other surprising contents?
My question is... what led the mother to text her son "don't do it" after she heard there was an active shooter at the school? Had authorities released the identity of the suspected shooter by that time? If not, why would she assume it was him?
She believed he was going to commit suicide after.
Well, they had been at the school just shy of two hours beforehand discussing the drawing and wether or not their son was a danger to others. So I mean, even if then they were still convinced he wasn't... As soon as they heard the news the assumption that it must have been him was not at all far fetched IMO...
On a different note, imagine if you were a kid hiding during an active shooting and getting that text from your mom. Gee thanks mom, that will sure do the self esteem good if I survive this.
@@randomlynamed3353 even though this is a horrible situation, that's still funny and I don't feel bad at all for laughing at that 😆
This has been my question. What was she referring to? If the shooting already occurred, it doesn’t make sense to say “don’t do it.”
The parents said they didn't want him to return home because they had to go back to work. But if the dad was out of work by 1:37pm...he could have SCHEDULED to return to pick up Ethan after work.
And if he WASN'T out of work by 1:37pm...how could he have ALREADY KNOWN to tell the authorities that there was a gun missing from their home?
If he were already home, Ethan SHOULD HAVE BEEN AS WELL.
And if he wasn't...he would have HAD TO ALREADY KNOW BEFORE HE GOT HOME (i.e. WHEN HE WAS AT THE SCHOOL THAT MORNING) that there was a gun missing from his house.
Great video, and I love the GiveWell shoutout. Amazing work!
Can you do a video on the lawsuits against the Kentucky candle factory owners who wouldn't let their workers leave when severe weather and tornados were bearing down?
It’s an interesting question. I personally think some responsibility should attach here, given how these parents clearly seemed to be aware that *something* was wrong, plus gave him a chance to get their gun. Honestly though they probably would’ve gotten off relatively lightly if they hadn’t tried to flee and made the government track them down, that sort of made everything worse...
Just the knowledge of possibly being prosecuted for what your child might do can work as a deterrent to cause parents into being more proactive and taking these things more serious.
@@tomsko863 yup, I’m kind of hoping for that. Regardless of the actual legalities, this is clearly bad parenting and if they’d just paid more attention to their kid this might have been avoidable. He clearly had some serious issues that he needed help with, and now because he didn’t get that he’s killed people and everyone involved will need to live with that.
@@tomsko863 That was my thinking. We might actually see improvement if Parents are also held more accountable. The issue I foresee though is, even though we want parents to do the right thing for their children (in this case get the kid help, not arm him etc) they might end up making it worse. Like imagine if the Parents threatened their child out of fear of them being prosecuted, that would just make the situation worse.
@@J0SHUAKANE Ah yes, please regail us with more stories about your time in the hood *Joshua.* You definitely know what you're talking about, for sure.
@@J0SHUAKANE hey, you forgot to bring up Chicago.
"Mom, dad, can I have a beer?"
"No of course not, that would be illegal and irresponsible, You're way too young to drink alcohol!"
"O.K., I understand. Can I have a gun instead?"
"Of course you can. What calibre did you have in mind?"
Facts! This is a rational.
stupid government
This is sad but true.
'Murica
I grew up in the UK and it’s very true that European countries will give a small sip of wine to children. One sip isn’t going to hurt a child and it makes them feel included, but america will never hear of this and that makes things like driving without a license and having firearms mod exotic of a concept
Here from the collab you did with Dr Mike, first time visiting your channel. As a resident of Oxford, I was hoping you had a video covering this. The situation still doesn’t feel real 😭
I always learn something from your videos. Thank you for creating genuinely educational content that has changed my opinion on a few occasions and always makes me think a lot more about serious subjects.
1:00 Thank you for saying "serious emotional problems" instead of "mental illness" or the like. As a mentally ill person I get really tired of hearing killers described as "mentally ill" or "mentally disturbed" in order to explain their actions. It was a small word choice, but it made a difference to me.
If he really was hearing voices wouldn't he be considered mentally ill?
Not the smartest comment. If someone's leg is broken you wouldn't "preach" to make others say it's "just bent" would you? The label "illness" stands for something real.
@@specialnewb9821 The people with other forms of mental illness don't want to be lumped in with the mass-murders. It's like how the people who advocate for euthanasia don't want it to be classified as a suicide.
@@specialnewb9821 only after proper evaluation. Anyone can say or write anything. Kids say crazy things all the time.
@@outdoorcoaching yes, the label "illness" means something: that proper psychiatric professionals have given a diagnosis. It's not proper for us on the Internet, or the media, to apply that label. Sure, it *sounds* like schizophrenia at first blush, but we actually don't know for sure. Meanwhile, mental illnesses are generally misunderstood and discriminated against. I think the point simply is that its refreshing not to have damning labels thrown about hap-hazardly.
Generally I don't like to blame the parents for their children's crimes, but in this case they were very negligent and ignored their troubled kid's red flags. They should be held partially accountable.
They couldn't be bothered to go to the school to get him when his note clearly said help me.
Double standard. When it is good, we completely blame parents. We feel fuzzy cute, when child picks up parent's habit and tics.
accomplices as they supplied the tools
At the very least, being tried for it is good to see. Let the prosecution try to prove that they were negligent to that extreme. Even if they are found not guilty, the precedent of being charged may be enough to wake up some parents, and maybe prevent 1 or 2 shootings in the future.
Shit like this happens all the time. Parents everywhere call their kids liars over mental health concerns. Enough is enough, yo. Whether it's through the law or through social pressure, parents need to know that this shit ain't gonna fly anymore. Maybe it's time we enacted laws that hold parents criminally responsible if they neglect a child's mental health to this extent? Whatever the case, this isn't a one-off incident; it's just the only one where the neglectful, horrendous, toxic parents finally have to stare down the barrel of responsibility. Them trying to run from it is quite ironic, might I add. Maybe they understand what it feels like now.
LegalEagle you are a great person who explains well. Thanks sir.
This is an intellectually stimulating social debate to have about the boundaries of liability, thanks for uploading.
If it's true that their son kept saying "don't make me go back," then I think they have at least some liability in their son's act by not taking him home.
Sh't. If my parents had let me go home every time I didn't feel like being in school, I never would have graduated
@@jmanj3917 but that’s different. I’m sure you weren’t kicked out of class for drawing people getting k*lled
@@jmanj3917 yeah did you ever draw people being murdered with the words "the thoughts won't stop, help me" written on it.
Kid won't graduate anyway, and now neither will 4 of his classmates. Those 4 classmates also won't ever breathe again. Graduation seems like the least of the concerns here
@Alexi Good for your parents to recognize that you were hurting. Good for you to overcome your hurt be doing well now. Wishing you happiness.
Yeah, that's a huge indicator no one was really listening to this kid.
What is interesting to me is that "reasonable person" and "normal behaviour" would differ from country to country.
In Germany those same actions would definetly be viewed as no proper gun safety and acting irresponsibly.
But we have a vastly different perspective on guns and their place I our society
America is paranoid, angry, insane. The rulers like it that way. It's easier to control the population.
Agreed, it's always so weird looking at the American analysis of every gun case taken by what's "right under the standard of American Law" when that notion of right is completely contrary to the notion of what's sane in the rest of the civilised world.
It's almost like a caricaturised stance of moral sanity.
Yep, here in Romania we don't even have bulets and guns for our police, and a lot of the gas we give our cops "disappears".
This family seems obscenely rich to us, splurging on guns like this, romanians can barely afford airsoft replicas. But that's the thing, guns are expensive and super rare here, and treated differently. We have trouble with child trafficking and exploration in a different way than the US , but that's another can of worms.
They should really change the wording to "reasonable American"
This isn't a reasonable person anywhere else in the world
I’m amazed at the fierceness with which my countrymen hold onto their firearms. Im amazed and I’m ashamed. I don’t understand why these people think they need to armed constantly except to say that our government uses fear tactics to keep us in line. This breeds paranoia and mistrust of others. It makes some of us feel as if they’re vulnerable every moment when out in public. I wish I could teach them the difference between a gun and a shield.
Super happy to see GiveWell on your video! - How can they afford to match if I'm trying to donate to them? :D
Its crazy how you can talk about all of this so calmly. Very professional, I might say.
I like how you explain more controversial topics recently with a informative and unbiased manner. Keep it up :)
recently? It always felt that way to me.
he is a lawyer😂
manner* (manor is a house) :) cheers
a better term is objective
Yeah, he's kinda smart.
I wish there was as much regulation about giving guns to minors as much as there is about giving alcohol to minors.
There is. But there isn't evidence they actually gave the gun to the minor after they left the range. I don't know how you can form an opinion with such little information.
I wish we cared at least half as much for children as we do for fetuses.
@@Vohlfied "We" care more about guns that children.
@@Vohlfied Sadly that'd only happen if most "pro-lifers" were more about protecting life than being anti-abortion. But judging by your tone I think you understand the irony as much as I do.
So basically none lol? Atleast basically none thats enforced
Crumbley's parents not following the school's instructions to remove the student and take him home is the main issue, along with their knowledge of Ethan's behavioral issues and not informing the school of this.
The auto-faceblur applied to the chimera/griffon mural at 10:17, lol.
Does the fact the parents fled, hid, and planned to skip into Canada impact any part of determining their consciousness of guilt?
I’m sure the prosecutor will hit that one pretty heavy.
I get fleeing to Canada may have been feasible for them, but they probably were unaware that Canada has an extradition treaty with the US, and that their federal agencies are on par with the US so they most likely wouldn’t have been able to hide out for long.
Still can't believe they were going to flee the country while their Child is being charged. Talk about abandonment....
It’s certainly not gonna help!
"planned to skip into Canada" Based on what evidence?
But guilt of what? Being ashamed or feeling threatened? Not defending them but that fact might not be as helpful as it seems.
I gotta say, the whole "do you plan on hurting yourself or someone else" is so damn dumb. that's like asking a child molester if they want to molest kid. No one that would want to do it would admit it. The only purpose of asking is to cover the ass of the person/organization that's asking. That way they can say, "hey, we asked". "we did our best" "we took efforts" etc.
You have to ask lol.
Questions like that aren't always about the answer though. It's the same as 'how many fingers am I holding up'? You're not really testing their ability to count when you ask that question. You're trying to determine if they have a concussion. When asked such questions, a normal healthy mind will answer immediately. If they don't answer immediately, that can be taken as evidence that they're currently not normal or healthy.
@@johnroutledge9220 sorry but I think you're wrong. I've been asked that question too many times to count and it doesn't matter how I answer. Unless I said I was planning something they wouldn't do anything. And as I said before, anyone planning on it wouldn't answer truthfully. You expect the doctors/nurses (since doctors rarely even bother with the clinical stuff) to be lie detectors? Maybe it's different where you're from but I wouldn't call the American healthcare system exactly on the ball when it comes to mental health.
I would replace that useless question with a simple, would you like information about mental health resources. I removes the pressure of immediately explaining yourself when you just came in for whatever other appointment. It gives them the information without expectation. And it doesn't immediately trigger the alarm for the nurses. Bc if you answer that truthfully that would/should trigger an immediate action. But again, that's where the failure comes because I'm sure even when they hear that they don't do anything.
Completely agree with you. I've lied on that question many times in my life. Not trying to be funny. I've been suicidal a few times but after 1 stay in a Psychiatric Hospital that I still have nightmares about, even if the answer is yes I want to hurt myself, I always say NO. Not saying anyone else should follow my example. I have BPD and its very complicated. I can want to hurt myself 1 minute then be fine the next. So my 14 day stay in the Hospital was very traumatizing for me because I was absolutely fine the entire time. If you DO want to hurt yourself, a Hospital stay CAN totally reset you. Just wanted to say I agree with this post and why.
@@MachinaGirlRobots sorry to hear that. Exactly the reason there's a lot of fear for answering that question. With the VA, I've heard of people saying yes and having the cops raid their house and take all their firearms and shit. Cuz worse than a veteran killing themselves is a veteran "going crazy" and killing someone else.
I've been waiting for you to cover this... Then I got busy so I'm a couple days late.
Thanks!
"...you need to learn how to not get caught, LOL"... - The Mom, on addressing her child's search for ammunition during class. Suggesting it is more important for him to learn how to get around getting caught, rather than teaching her child that it is more important to not engage in that behavior in the first place.
I view this the same way I would view a parent telling a kid "I don't care if you curse, but don't let me or your teachers catch you." In my opinion, it's not about teaching the kid to disrespect authority, it's about teaching the kid that some things are inappropriate around certain people in certain contexts, but completely fine when you're not getting "caught."
Shouldn't they be saying he should pay attention in class?
@@LowJSamuel I'd respectfully disagree, this statement feels more like she was encouraging him to hide criminal activity "Oh, you need to not get caught buying drugs!" Sort of feel.
@@LowJSamuel I would agree if he wouldn't have been at school of all places looking up ammo purchases. That's not a "don't get caught" moment, it is WILDLY inappropriate.
@@sdtwirix1126 What criminal activity are you talking about? Simply searching for ammo is not criminal activity. It may be against school policy, but it's not criminal.
Are you alleging that she knew he was searching for ammunition in order to better prepare himself for the murder he would soon commit, and the mom just told him to not get caught?
"Millions of Americans (and by proxy, their children) are armed in America."
Ouch.
Regardless of where we stand on the legalities of their charges, I think we can all agree that attempting to flee the country while your 15 year old child is in jail on multiple murder charges shows just how awful they are as parents.
For me the text message where the mom says "I'm not upset I just don't want you to get caught" is just as damning as the "don't do it" text.
It's just the worst form of encouragement I can imagine. Imagine what the kid is thinking that day? "Well, even if the school finds out, I know my parents don't care what I do, so if I hide it from the school I should be fine." It's blatantly encouraging--at minimum--morally questionable behavior. At worse, as was sadly demonstrated, it led to the encouragement of the killing of 4 high school students.
There is absolutely no reason for her to think he was going to shoot up the school based on that alone.
@@MezMez there is also no reason to think that he'd shoot up the school because they bought him a gun.
The argument isn't whether he was directly encouraged to shoot the school. You'll never hear the prosecution say that the parents explicitly or inferentially told their son to shoot a school.
They are working to prove that the parents were grossly negligent. A parent seeming to be encouraging illicit behavior is going to be coming up towards proving that negligence.
My eldest son had, real bad anger issues. I knew owning a firearm at that time would have been reckless. He would have found it and possibly used it. Parents have been saying for years now, "their my child". When that child than does something the parents knew might happen, and facilitate that same thing. Yes they are responsible
IMO the parents do have some responsibility. They'd bought him a gun just a few days before, knew he'd been looking for ammo, didn't take him home for the day, and didn't bother to check their house to make sure all the guns were still securely locked away. From what I'd heard, the school did try to convince the parents to take him home for the rest of the day but the parents refused. The school didn't feel it had enough justification to keep him separated from the other kids so they reluctantly let him back into class. I suspect that if they'd known his parents had bought him a gun a day or two earlier, they would have done things very differently.
"knew he'd been looking for ammo" It's like you ignored that part in the video.
The ammo search could be dismissed as irrelevant by a jury or judge considering his parents just bought him a gun and took him shooting. It’s the fact that they bought him a gun knowing he has mental issues that led to hospitalization and had behavioral issues that will be extremely damning.
Parents wanting their kid to Tay in class or whatever is irrelevant. That's the schools area of expertise and they have basically unlimited power in that respect when it comes to safety risks. They didn't do their job here and they should be getting sued and officials should get charged if the parents are getting charged. Looking up ammo after you get a new gun is very normal especially for teens. Teens having access to guns at the range is fairly normal.
At a certain point we have to recognize this is more to try and scare gun owners in general. Cuz the parents didn't knowingly do anything wrong.
@@jesusjuice7401 I disagree, the school very likely had much less information than the parents.
@@dennisweyland7613 they are in an area where most people have a gun at home. He was looking up ammo and he wrote a threatening note so they had as much info as the parents. They aren't biased like parents would naturally be. And they are obligated to protect other students. They did nothing that was normal in this situation. Law enforcement officials said as much when interviewed. They send kids home for less routinely without one single F about what parents think. They didn't even get a school resource official involved or even ask to check his bag and locker. They did nothing normal for the situation and they're the ones with the training and "expertise" about this shit.
I feel like every time LegalEagle has a question for a video title, the answer will be a resounding "Maybe".
Hey LegalEagle!
Ethan probably couldn't believe how stupid and inept the school authorities and his parents were when they released him to class with his unsearched backpack. Free pass to kill. He tried to warn them with his drawings.
He had every oppurtunity to tell that morning.
Are the parents responsible?
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: Hell yes.
"Teens are presumed to have agency." To the law, every where else its adults screaming "What do you know you are only a kid."
To be fair, Ariel was 16 and was a freaking moron
May I direct you to Dave Chappell's bit
"How old is 15 really?"
simple search on this site will have plenty
Agency but no wisdom to use it properly.
@@HearMeShout789 What does The Little Mermaid have to do with this?
@@HearMeShout789 Sure, but she only ran away after an enormous abusive episode by her father in which he destroyed all her things in front of her. Prior to that, it was mostly daydreaming and a little voyeurism.
That “Detroit Warehouse” where they hid is also the location of my business. I was there into the evening while they were hunkering down two floors below me. A friend’s younger sister was also in the school during the shooting, and I got drinks down the road with him that night and wondered when they would find them. Weird anecdotes, but shows just how close you can come to a high-profile crime without ever sniffing it out.
I don't always agree with you're opinions but I seem to always agree with your explanation of legal analysis.
Whilst I was in high school, my bipolar disorder first surfaced. From experience most high school counselors are absolute crap
That probably has more to do with how much money schools have to spend on mental health. They'd rather spend it on sports programs.
@@robertp457 My school had counselors and the one I met was just incompetent. Didn't want to be there, didn't want to talk to the kids. Awful.
@@homeiswonderland Don't see how this isn't a money issue. Believe me, if your job pays you a respectable wage you're MUCH more like to give a shit about the job. Depending on the state, the average ranges from $20/hr to $32/hr for a school counselor. That all seems "good" until you realize the minimum livable wage in the cheapest states is hovering around $21/hr right now for an individual. Add on top of that the average is $20/hr in the least paying state... meaning 50% of counselors make LESS than $20/hr in that state... So more than half of school counselors don't make a livable wage with a minimum masters degree in psychology (That's easily $90K in student loans)... Yeah, no surprise school counselors are jaded and would rather NOT be there.
A livable wage is a wondrous starting point for an employer to show their respect for you as their employee.
@@robertp457 my school spent 100k on artificial grass
it's not the schools job to diagnose what was wrong with this kid. This is on the parents, they were told to get him help and they decided to leave him there.
It feels like one of those cases where the morality and the legality might diverge.
Morally, at the absolute MINIMUM these parents were blissfully unaware of extreme psychological distress in their child. "The voices won't stop" is not your typical teen angst; that's schizophrenia, and I highly doubt this final drawing was the first sign of it appearing. That they purchased a horribly unbalanced child a gun and did not take seriously his searching for ammunition in school is repugnant. There's little doubt that but for their poor parenting, the victims would be alive today, and their son might have received the treatment he so obviously needs instead of criminal charges.
Legally? It's tougher. If the gun truly was locked up, I think they're going to have a hard time proving that the parents did anything wrong because even though they claim they bought it for him, it implies their intent to supervise his use of the firearm. Not searching the backpack seems like a flimsy justification for the charges, particularly when the school did not do so either and the counselor's erroneous determination that he wasn't likely to be a threat to himself or others. The fleeing is the worst look for them, but I don't think it's enough to convict on involuntary manslaughter.
In any event, whatever the outcome I hope the mere fact that they were charged and will need to spend a lot of money defending themselves will cause others to take both mental health and gun ownership more seriously in the future.
He has a history of mental illness and self-harm, and was even put in a psych ward for a year at some point. Given that he was obviously mentally ill, I think this fact combined with illegally buying him a firearm could be enough.
It sounds like the school isolated him until the parents could come and see him then expected them to deal with the problem. But they refused to search him or send him home. Maybe the schools policy is to outsource searches to the parents rather than doing it themselves to avoid being liable for invading his privacy or something like that? I don't know if this is a thing but it seems so inexplicable that the school wouldn't search his bag. Even if he hadn't got a gun he might have had a knife or something.
Under Michigan law a school cannot search a student’s bag unless they have “reasonable suspicion” to do so. I don’t know what technically constitutes reasonable suspicion. It’s possible the parents declined to search the bag, making it difficult for the school to go over their head. Lots of things are possible.
definitely the most reasonable opinion I've read so far
@@gregorydanielscpa I don't know about Michigan specificity but as I understand it, public schools have to justify a "reasonable belief" that they would _find a weapon_ in order to search a bag or locker. I think that's why the superintendent mentioned his lack of disciplinary history: he's establishing justification for his decisions. Of course, the 4th Ammendment doesn't apply to parents so they could have searched the bag. I also think that if the parents had told the school that they'd just bought a gun for Ethan that they would have searched his bag and locker.
Will you make a video on Long Island Audit youtube channel?
As someone who had a near school-shooter in their friend circle (the boyfriend of my friend, didn't know about the documented attempt until later), I guarantee that the possibility was obvious to his parents. You can almost always tell when a stranger is not only capable, but actively fantasizing about these things, let alone what you should know and see as a parent. The most generous reading would be that they just don't interact with him at all outside of guns, so they don't know what's abnormal for him.
I'd also be really surprised if the school doesn't get charged with gross negligence; it's pretty common policy to search the bags first when someone reports a note like that??
*short answer:* yes
*long answer:* HAIL YEAH
I understood that reference.
"i'm not mad at you lol you have to learn to not get caught" - sounds grossly negligent to me.
I literally gasped when I heard that she wrote that message. Holy shit!
The movie "The Unforgivable" has situation akin to this one and I would like your take on it. Specially if we were to consider the police actually knew the identity of the shooter at the time of the investigation.
I like how they blurred the face of the sphinx on the warehouse, haha.
I'm a teacher. I'm so angry and I'm so tired. This needs to stop. In all the "gun control" arguing, there is one thing that EVERYONE agrees upon...firearms need to be PROPERLY SECURED. This is the BARE FREAKING MINIMUM we can do to stop these awful shootings. I hope these disgusting people go to jail for as long as is legally allowed.
Good to hear opinions from an actual lawyer, even if that opinion regrettably posits that it's not an offence in and of itself to fail to secure your weapon from an unauthorized user.
Make everyone responsible for what happens with guns registered int heir name.
someone got shot / killed with your gun by someone else. You are responsible as well.
Look at how fast things will change.
And how do you suggest we safely secure a firearm in the house? Most gun safes sold in the US can be jimmied open by un-trained people. And if the gun owner buys an expensive safe that can't be opened by the novice, then what? It might have a key. then the parents store the key somewhere. The child can get the key and unlock the safe. So keyed locks are no good. Key codes are not much better. The kid can probably hack that by knowing the parent. Or the key code is written somewhere. And if all else fails the child could take a week with trial and error. Biometric locks are just as bad. We can go online and in a matter of minutes find tutorials on how to bypass even the best ones. So, there is no way that a parent can keep a gun in the house away from the child, If we keep bringing guns into houses with kids and teens, we need to know that the adolescent will get to the gun if they want to. The only way to keep the gun out of the hands of the children is to keep them out of the house.
@@MightyBiffer there's no point in an expensive gun safe because a child will just find the key?... 🤔
Great point...
Maybe a parent could keep the key on their person?...
Or hide it?
Just a thought.... 🙄
@@MightyBiffer This is a problem for the gun owner to solve, not anyone else.
The alternative cant be school shootings, or children having gun accidents, cause locking up a gun is to difficult for some people.
If you cant do that, you should not own a gun.
In medicine we are taught to look for potentially harmful behaviors the patient may have against themselves or others and basically not to rely on their answer "oh I'm OK, I don't want to kill myself or others, I promise" if all the other signs are pointing to the opposite direction. A person is hardly every going to admit to suicidal or homicidal ideation when asked directly. This boy needed immediate inpatient treatment, even if involuntary and even without his parents consent.
Schools are incompetent. No child, especially not a boy raised in a society that says boys shouldn't show their feelings, is going to tell a room of adults, "Yes, I need help, I want to hurt myself and/or others."
Exactly. School should have called 911 to have him evaluated
@@mrs.lilymason Ah, but a school sticking its nose in a family's right to raise a mass murderer? That would be Communism!
@@jukahri I actually got a reply on another video that an abortion clinic can't call cps because of hipaa. People actually believe that ish
I live like 35 minutes from Oxford and heard about the shooting around like 3 when there was barely any information and my mom called me and told me there was a school shooting and I was in awe. So heartbreaking and unbelievable that a kid who is not even legal age to drive nor own his own damn gun would do such a thing. RIP to all the victims and the families of this horrible tragedy.
Love your videos. Could you maybe do a Laws Broken on Die Hard? It would be interesting to see if John McClane would run into any legal issues from his one man war on the (not) terrorists.
The fact that just answering a few questions from the school councilor was enough to let him back to class was a bit strange. In NJ if anyone is suspected of something like this, they require a third party child psychiatrist's sign off before a kid can come back on school grounds.
I feel like Noone is really discussing this part. I find it strange as well he was able to go back into class the same day.
Guess they do things differently in rural Michigan...guess that's why people in the community are calling this shooting "unimaginable". That would be the right word for why the school councilor sent a potential school shooter back into the classroom.
@@bernlin2000 Well, those rules would be set at the state level. I living in the country in NJ, there are more farms than office buildings near my house and those are the rules here. Rural or urban probably didn't matter.
The ball was dropped by many parties in this situation.
Agreed. Unfortunately the school did not have enough evidence to force the parents to remove the shooter, and the parents were unwilling to take the action they should have taken (ie. make sure their child is okay before sending him back to class). Parents should not have the ability to block the removal of an armed child who has just indicated they are having murderous impulses.
I was quite surprised to hear that he got sent back to class. The one time I expressed suicidal signs at school, I was sent straight to the hospital.
Imagine working a job where you're massively underpaid and in constant fear that someone might actively try to kill you and the people under your supervision...now imagine the lifelong emotional trauma that adds onto a person.
thank you for acknowledging this!!!
I work in health care, and specializing in psychiatric nursing, and it's fascinating to me (and tragic) how most of the time when police responds to MH related calls, it ends with shooting the person bc "the situation is so dangerous". But in my line of work, I work with these people, go to their homes etc, never knowing what will meet me - mostly by myself, and we are taught how to manage situations that might happen (like if on drugs, risk of psychosis is superhigh, and in general psychosis are pretty common in that specific field), and how to avert the situation without any form of weapons or tools for defense. I don't have a bulletproof west, no shields when entering etc. Yet police meet the same people, and are terrified for their lives. In my country, armed police is still a pretty new thing and the police academy is a bachelor's degree. And they have to do practical rotations where one is supposed to be psychiatric care related. Usually they end up in a psych ward. And everyone I know who works in psych wards are so annoyed when police students come. Bc they tend to basically provoke the patients until they react physically, and then have no "normal" way of averting w/o fighting violence with violence. And yet they wonder why mentally ill people are terrified of cops.
Currently working in a nursing home, a dementia unit, and we had a person who was mentally ill combined with dementia... we were physically attacked all the time, and one night during the weekend they had to call the ER to ask permission to give an injection. (It has to be approved by a doctor, and weekends and nights ER is only available doctor basically). The doctor would not sign off on that, and said the ambulance would come get this person. Didn't matter that we said that would only make it worse, and this was just an episode that could be easily handled but bc we couldn't administer pills, we had to give an injection... but nah. Ambulance showed up WITH COPS and they handcuffed this old person with severe dementia, slammed the person on the floor before carrying the person away to the ambulance. That is one of many reasons we try not to call for help (like the ER). Bc we know going to an acute psych ward escorted by police in handcuffs, will not help this person. They are not JUST mentally ill, they have dementia. Yet we are supposed to get through situations like this more often than people like to imagine, without being traumatized or scared every once in a while that your life is actually at risk. Health care and education is weirdly similar that way. We are expected to know, to see, and handle situations before they occur, for shit pay despite several degrees etc. But police can shoot a person bc "they looked threatening", no further questions. If I ever injured a patient, I would have to be able to show it was self defense and my only option aka I would have been gravely injured if I did not do x, y, z. I could lose my nursing license for protecting myself. Police? Internal investigation when gun is fired and leads to death, which usually results in nothing... many people don't understand what it's like to love your job while also being terrified that this is the day something bad happens and the risks of being at work in general with no form of protection. I'm glad I don't live in the US anymore (did for a few yrs), bc you can't get a gun here legally unless for hunting. And even that is strictly monitored, and nothing like the weapons you see in the US... yet armed cops think a naked man waving with a knife is a life or death situation.
Perhaps they should have enough common sense to find different work??? 🤔
@@epicproportionsmediaproduc6697 so all teachers should quit and find different work bc the US won't do shit about the insane mental health crisis among youth and the gun problem currently on-going? Isn't lack of education already an issue in the US? As someone who started college in the US with English as my third language, I aced all my classes without much effort - while most of the Americans didn't even know how to structure an essay. In college. There is already a masisve gap in the American education system. Let's not force people willing to teach kids and teenagers to quit bc of dangers of society. The US can't afford an even worse educational system.
@@KrisHe1 bless this
I'm very excited that Givewell is getting their message out to an audience the size of yours.