The Sad Story of Kirby In Smash
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- čas přidán 27. 10. 2021
- Get Surfshark VPN at surfshark.deals/MOCKROCK - enter promo code MOCKROCK for 83% off and 3 extra months for free! | Kirby. The star of Super Smash Bros. Ultimate's story, and by some measures, the star of the Super Smash Bros. series in general. He's been an extremely important character in the world of Smash...unless you get to the tournament scene, where he's nowhere to be found. That wasn't always the case though, and today we take a look at Kirby's long history, comparing his design across the Smash titles as well as the Kirby games themselves, and try to figure out just what went so wrong for our little friend.
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Music used:
"MockRock Is Here (Relaxed)" - MockRock
"MockRock is Here" - MockRock
"By Now" - MockRock
"Gourmet Race (Brawl)" - Super Smash Bros. Brawl OST (Original from Kirby Super Star Ultra OST)
"Piercing the Sky" - VVVVV OST
"Great Leader Has Fallen" - Brigador OST
All original music, as well as its stems, are available for download to patrons, CZcams members, and Twitch subscribers
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Thanks for watching!
#SuperSmashBros #SmashUltimate #Nintendo - Hry
Thanks for watching everybody! It's been rough for our boy over the years 😔 Let me know your experience with Kirby in Smash. Do you agree you'd like to see changes to his design? How close would your changes be to this video's?
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The most enjoyable experience I have with Kirby in Smash was using him to cheese Cruel Smash achievements and playing him alot during Subspace Emissary.
You made some nice critiques on how Kirby can be improved. I was thinking about giving him more exciting smash attacks that aren't about him using his stubby feet.
@@justinnzamora5366 new smash attack is such a simple idea but could add so much more to any character. I mean, look at Ganondorf!
I agree, please change him
Just make his side b the fire ball, give him his slide and buff a lot of his framdata and rage. Then I will be happy.
Hello MockRock, remember me? On your 75m video, I requested you do another rectrospective on ever fighter in ult and you said that you were gonna do it after all characters were released. Well, they are all out and I'd say it's time for another.
Also, could you redo the best of every move in smash ult as well and maybe also focus on synnergy. And sorry for posting same comment twice
90% of Kirby's moveset is just kicks with no range
The only kick I ever saw kirby do isn't even in his smash moveset
@@cowboyoctopus2738 You clearly have never played Fighter Kirby.
Hell Jigglypuffs dash attack Up Smash and Down throw uses her Head.
Here's the kicker (pun not intended), almost all of them aren't from Fighter. Kirby's moves that take from Fighter are as follows:
-Jab
-Fsmash
That's it. That's everything, anything else that isn't Dash Attack, his grabs or one of his specials is made up.
@@castform7 His forward air looks a lot like his spin kick he does in Amazing mirror and I THINK super star. But yeah other than that his moves are mostly filler. Which isn't weird. I mean I don't think Mario ever backflip kicks anyone or punches someone downwards. I don't need EVERY move to be a direct reference, but it does feel like a lot of the fighter kirby moves would at least make decent moves to extend his range. I just think they're really hesitant to change the smash 64 characters significantly.
Don't lie, we were all a kirby main once
And for that still are, my congrats
Vouch
If you've played smash casually at one point then you mained kirby at one point. If you claim otherwise then you are lying.
It's easier to mash up on the control stick than press Up once and then press Up+B and that's why everyone starts as a Kirby main. He might not be the first character you played, but he's definitely the first character you mained because you can't wrap your head around how the other characters are supposed to get back with just a single jump.
I won't lie that I'm still a kirby main
I was at the start but then I swapped to Lucario(Brawl, 6yr)
Literally so many "bad" characters are only bad because of Sakurai's desire to maintain their current special moves. Kirby's copy ability allows for so many different specials to be added but he still only has inhale, hammer, final cutter and stone. I would've loved to see kirby's side b be like beam attack or something because that would be a good way to 2 frame opponents or edgeguard.
""Why no one plays" Kirby
Legit, so many characters have so many different moves to pull from but they've had the same moveset forever
I don't think Kirby should have a projectile besides Final Cutter and spiting out stars. I don't want him to zony.
@@grantgarbour That because Characters not only need to represent they're series but also there history with smash as a whole.
Imagine side b being wheel or the mirror phase move though, that would be so cool.
Me, a huge Kirby fan and Kirby main: Ah yes, I was in need of some Dededepression today.
Go look at his frame data again, that will cheer you up.
All it would take is to buff inhale. Seriously buff its frame data, buff its range, make each copy ability overpowered. Even if you have to scale back the developer effort to give him generic abilities based on who he inhales (sword, parasol/balloon, fire, laser, etc...) just make those abilities worth the effort of getting. Kirby's inhale should be as iconic as Peach's float.
Peach is actually a good example. Her range/power/mobility/specials are okay, but she has float. Float makes the character. Inhale should be the same for Kirby.
I stand with you
@@uncreative127 64 Kirby Up-tilt always gets a smile from me.
Same☠️
something i've constantly thought about ever since i saw it pointed out is the fact that kirby's slow air speed in smash is kind of unfaithful to how he functions in the kirby games. in kirby, jumping and flying are two different states of movement, so he only loses momentum if he decides to use midair jumps. i guess maybe smash just isn't coded to account for this or something, but i would love in the future to see kirby be allowed to keep his ground speed until he decides to float.
Pre-Crystal Shards Kirby just gets infinite flight and in his first game his flight is pretty fast, not to mention continuous with one held button press. :P
Although I didn’t like Amazing Mirror and was lukewarm about Squeak Squad, Kirby could SHMOVE in those games.
@@edwinkjellzahn Amazing Mirror, my beloved… I think that game probably has the best feel of movement in the entire series, both general movement and how well copy ability attacks flowed with the game’s momentum.
Ryu and Ken keep their forward momentum when jumping, so they could just give Kirby that same ability if they wanted to.
They already have stats that effect how air jumps effect momentum, if they increased Kirby's normal air speed but decreased the horizontal momentum of his air jumps it would be a lot better.
0:16 Man, you're right. Captain Falcon is like Morrigan from all the "VS Capcom" crossovers: both outliving the shit out of their own franchises, neither of which have gotten a true sequel in over 15 years. 🙃
If someone told me Cap was a Smash original character, l would have a hard time correcting them.
Ice Climbers ROB and Mr. Game and Watch might as well be Smash OCs
Morrigan and Falcon are extremely similar:
-they’re from franchises which their companies feature but only them since they’re the mascots.
-are more associated with the fighting game they were in than their own games.
-hot as frick. (Not gay,just saying).
@@docs.a.t.7161 Ehh... ROB and Mr are pretty obviously based on something due to their signiature design
I want the protagonist of my favorite series to actually be good in Smash once again. I also want him to actually feel like he does in the games, instead of how he is now where he largely uses generic punches and kicks, with his specials being a lot of his simpler copy abilities, none of which feel as good as in the actual Kirby games. Hammer comes close but I've always loved how snappy the animation is in older Kirby games. Final Cutter is slow as hell in comparison to the Kirby series, something you mentioned thankfully, when in actual Kirby its a Combo ender for one of the historical most versatile copy abilities, Cutter, which has a burst movement option dash attack, very maneuverable projectiles that can be charged, and the previously mentioned combo. Stone has little impact due to a lack of minor screen shake like it often has in Kirby. And his inhale is lacking, mainly due to the endlag you mentioned. It Kirby its actually pretty spammable. Sure you can't have it be like that in a fighting game without causing some troubles, but the fact that it's slower than in a lot of high risk high reward options says a lot considering in Kirby games its designed to be easy to use without punishment since its at the core of the series beginner friendly design.
Tbf pretty much the entirety of the smash 64 roster suffers from very generic punch and kicks since smash wasn’t expected to get this big but I still feel most of them need to be reworked at least a bit, after all when you realize that a god damn piranha plant has more moves that reflect its canonical abilities that fricking Kirby then something’s wrong
I feel basically the same. Kirby's my favourite series (despite the username implying otherwise). I'd want him to use his abilities more but that would go against his simpler design. Though, not having a lot of his moves actually take from Fighter is kinda sad. I'd want him to have better copy abilities for specials cause the ones he does have are not really how they are in Kirby like you said. The best Hammer we got was from Brawl before they ruined it, Cutter's way too slow and doesn't show off what the actual ability is about. Stone is.....well....Stone, and Inhale is way to much risk from a character who's thing is being easy. I just feel like there are so many more options for specials even if strictly looking at classic abilities instead of modern ones like Water and Doctor.
He's mid tier tho he's not bad
@@castform7 I think Kirby’s jab is taken from fighter’s basic attack right ?
And also the fact that his star spitting mechanic, which is famously used in solo-Kirby True arena runs, is just really poor in smash bros. Comparing the lag and damage output for the move between Kirby Star Allies and smash really shows the maltreatment of Kirby's signature attack.
King Dedede's inhale is better than Kirby's, and it makes me a little sad.
I'm surprised you didn't mention how inhaling a projectile as Kirby in Ultimate (if you can even manage that) will put you in so much lag, that you can get hard punished from across half the stage.
Kirby should be able to decide whether he wants to swallow or spit the projectile out as a star. It would deal a bit more damage back depending on the projectile but it would also give Kirby more utility with Inhale rather than just “I’mma swallow this missile for a few seconds, hold on.”
Dedede should be able to intake larger things like Villager Tree and Samus Ball and fire them out fine, he’s a visually bigger character and Kirby struggles to inhale larger heavier objects in his main series anyway.
A good strategy is get an assist trophy then eat a bunch of items that can heal kirby. They would usually have to deal with dodging the assist you can get some good health in.
@@AndroidHarris this applies to every character in the game
@@itsturniptime3699 kirby is the only one that can eat non bomb items for health. You could do some breathing exercises healing for wii fit trainer or hero heal as well but not every character has a healing ability.
@@AndroidHarris true
Its funny how perfectly this video surmises my experience. I think its probably the case with many people, but hearing someone else explain how you’d just hover above your opponent and spam stone is… great. But then, as you get into… y’know… being good at the game, he completely loses everything that made him enjoyable originally and becomes a chore to play. I really wish we could have something more similar to Kirby in smash 64 again, but toned down a bit. We don’t need up tilt being 5 miles long.
Wow your pfp reminds me of my brother
You would still be mid tier
@@captainmega6310 accurate
Kirby is my main and I definitely think you nailed this video, making his up b out of shield actually good would be such a nice change. I will say that I do think stone is decent as is though, it’s primarily good off stage against certain recoveries like Mythra side b and it can act as a sort of counter. A faster start up would be nice, but I wouldn’t call it a necessarily bad move.
I didnt know you mained Kirby, I just assumed you used Mario
@@Banana_D Mario is one of mine of course lol, he’s third behind Kirby and Steve
@@Odyssey_Central lol
No wonder he's low tier
_But just imagine if it spiked, though_
I am a Kirby main, and, when playing casually, Kirby is SO much fun. I actually started to main him in Melee because I thought he looked cute. But from a competitive perspective there are definitely a bunch of thing that could improve
They only need to make him faster really, Then he would be pikachu teir due to illegal frame data.
I love the fact that the invincibility move (rock), is so unsafe in majority of situations, which especially sucks when compared to the Kirby games where I could honestly use rock as a pause button if I wanted to
Most moves in the Kirby franchise are broken as hell like this. Huge hitboxes, good damage, and the longer the series goes on more and more abilities recieve spammable full-body invincibility on at least 2 moves.
I've been a Kirby main for 10 years and 4 games and, lemme tell you, a buff (or any attention from the devs) would be welcome
Remember patch 8.0.0? And how we were so happy he finally got a buff. And we never saw anything else again?
@@ryuukail didn't we get a few buffs throughout the smash ultimate updates? Inhale up air down air and fair and a few other moves were updated past that one punch. I think it was 2 patch buffs in total maybe 3. But that was it. Unless smash continues to be updated in the normal sense
He’s gotten multiple buffs tbf
Too bad the buffs we got rarely addresses his core issues.
For better or worse, Kirby is probably the most "easy to learn, hard to master" character in Smash. Personally, I think Kirby's present design is fine the way it is, but I'd still like him to reach competitive relevance (even if they aren't his 64 glory days). Besides, who wouldn't want to see Kirby win majors?
Me
I agree with you on this, because as a kirby main getting combos down is difficult but still fun.
He's hard to master for all the wrong reasons.
"who wouldn't want to see Kirby win majors?" Me, because I cringed so damn hard when Sakurai thought "Sakurai bias" meant "the characters I made are strong" rather than "I included a lot of characters I made/like"
I mean, it would've been in Smash 64 and Brawl. But this popped up because of Dark Fucking Pit lmao. If anything he would've been biased if, say, Kirby got a ton of unique customs and the Pits got multiple different weapons from Uprising for their customs. Palutena did and… yeah just her and the Miis. That's more of a weird pick than blatant bias if you ask me.
Though, it's worth noting that Megaman also got treated really well with custom moves. Most of them are very similar to his og specials, but within the Megaman series itself you tend to see a lot of repeated robot master weapons. He got three unique "Leaf Shield" down B clones, and I know for a fact Sakurai missed one or two. Junk Shield lol.
His design is definitely not fine, most of his move set is bland punches & kicks and Hammer is among the most boring special moves in the game. Making Hammer his side smash instead and giving him Beam as his side-B is just 1 thing they could do to improve his viability while also making him more accurate to his games.
Another issue I have with Inhale is that they gave to Dedede what they very much should have with Kirby. Being able to throw back an attack is quintessential Kirby! It was literally all he COULD do back in his first game, and they never let him do so. It would be so nice to let him turn a projectile into a star for attacks like in the games, and larger attacks would become those big piercing stars… but unfortunately, they’re probably never gonna let that happen…
Fun fact: Large attacks like Samus' full power charge shot CAN be shot back as big projectile stars and they do a LOT of damage. Good luck landing that though.
most of the big ideas i've had for making kirby feel better in smash concern his inhale. in all the recent games (return to dream land onward) the inhale feels REALLY powerful and satisfying in terms of range and speed. one of my favorite things is that if you use it on an enemy up close, it's practically instantaneous. and there's no real lag on swallowing or spitting out enemies, so you can be really quick with it too. there's also the fact that he can swallow an indefinite amount of projectiles at once, and spit them all out, while in smash you can really only inhale one at a time and most of them can't even be thrown back at enemies. i think that really is a shame!!
for making the abilities he gets in smash feel more significant, i had the idea that they all give kirby some kind of stat change. like bowser would make kirby a bit heavier, sonic a bit faster running, jigglypuff faster in the air, etc. i think that would be a fitting compromise for smash only letting you copy one move, since in the actual games, while abilities don't change kirby's base movement, the fact that you do get a whole new moveset will naturally make the playstyle feel a bit different.
this one is probably really minor, but something about stone in smash that is kind of a shame to me is the fact that you're left completely vulnerable when changing forms. while in the games, if an enemy is near kirby when he's turning in/out of his stone form, they'll be damaged by all the little rocks he summons. it doesn't even have to be particularly strong, but i think giving him that little attack in smash would make stone feel less helpless on the ground
YES PLEASE
4:21 It also wouldn't be a MockRock video if he wasn't expressing his gripes with the Pits.
I always eagerly wait for Mock to talk about Pit's Nair.
MockRock: *Clears throat*
Me: *Starts double tapping*
Kirby’s had a rough transition since the jump to Melee…
I think something you failed to mention was just how much the engine benefits Kirby in smash 64. Having slower movement is less important in a slower paced game. Like even in PM where they buffed the hell out of Kirby he's still considered the worst character in the game.
Yeah most of it is just because of 64's engine, especially since it only has SDI. A lot of moves that link in there probably wouldn't link as well if they were designed the exact same way in a game with DI + SDI. Even Smash 4 and Ult's tiny amount of DI makes it possible to drop bread and butter combos, which usually just isn't the case in 64. Another thing I think that should be mentioned is just how everyone else around him and the game's mechanics are designed. Most of the roster in Smash 4 and Ult have busted recoveries on top of the inclusion of ledge trumping. With Kirby's current aerials, he'd be a decent character if the game didn't discourage offstage play so much, but since nearly everyone can make it back to the ledge so easily he really struggles to kill. Even Puff has this problem despite being designed entirely around this concept.
Edit:
Something that would be nice to see is to give Kirby PM's up B though (preferably P+ since in there it can also be done while grounded) as it would greatly help his mobility without having to buff air speed/air accel which would make him feel too different. I'd probably also make it function similarly to Cloud's up B where you press B again to descend (either that or just hold it). Adding little bits of depth here and there might seem like it conflicts with his design but I think it's perfect for a beginner character.
@@Brawltendo That's just depressing 😔
To be fair, PMs balancing isn't good
i am used to low tier by now..
Kirby is so used to being in low tier, that he becomes the low tier.
*Still a Kirby main and I'm proud of it! Hell you can perform good combos with him. You just have to have a mind of a skilled Kirby player.*
Yup! I used the fthrow combo regrab off ledge into dair to gimp Naitosharp in tournament. Quick stocks... Though he did end up taking the game and set lmao.
Poyo.
I’m so glad you actually critiqued all aspects Smash Kirby’s design without it solely/mostly just complaining about how he doesn’t have a Megaman-amount of references in his normal attacks. (I do want to see more ability references, but I’m fine with some moves staying the same.) You made some nice compromises to make him less bad while keeping his simplistic/basic play style and not him annoyingly strong.
I also really appreciate that you understood what Sakurai was trying to go for with Kirby’s physics and some of his basic looking attacks, and gave your own opinion and ideas on what you’d prefer and change about to make him better without directly insulting Sakurai, like I see a lot of people do when criticizing his design.
I don't know why every character has to be like Mega Man. Barely anyone plays him for a reason
@@audiovisual51 I was talking about making every one of his moves a Copy Ability/reference.
Yeah that's why I like this video. Falcon Punch is a smash original move after all (as with most of his moveset)
Say all you want, but before I watched this video I’d like to say that with custom moves, upper cutter is an amazing move for Kirby because you have a kill confirm for most characters around 50% with an up air string because it is such a strong finishing move.
Kirby in smash 4 with custom moves is an amazing character
Hot take: I don't really like the idea of making Kirby's normals all copy abilities. I think it'd only make his moveset look more like a weird and disconnected chimera of random things, and would also overshadow his actual special moves. I think it's perfectly fine for Kirby's normals to be composed of actually normal attacks, and leave the copy abilities to the special moves. This may pose a problem in the competitive side of things, but even then, I think it can be circumvented.
Also, I personally think that Captain Falcon is still the fighter that comes closest to being the symbol of Smash, even though Kirby is a close second. But I suppose the fighter one sees as the symbol of Smash changes highly depending on personal opinion and attachment to the fighter.
That's a good point actually.
I think it's all a matter of adding moves that make sense for its input though. I don't think doing stuff like pulling out the Star Rod for a forward tilt would flow well in a moveset, but I think the Needle attack as it appeared in the earlier games(before it got the hat) would work nicely as a neutral aerial. The couple Fighter moves that are already there are also fine. -Slide kick should still be down tilt though-
Ok but can his down tilt be his slide please
@@captainmega6310 yeah, I don't really see any point against that to be honest, and would probably only benefit Kirby.
equally hot take: the people that say that Smash 64 characters have completely outdated movesets and want shit like Mario to have the FLUUD and Cappy and him having the elemental hands from Super Star Saga and also have partners from Paper Mario and also a hammer and a boomerang and so on and so on and so on and so forth ALL AT THE SAME TIME are downright delusional and couldn't design a good character to save their lives.
There's a reason why normals are called normals. You don't need to insert wacky shit where a simple punch or kick or swipe or whatever would be fine and easy to understand.
In fact, the entire Smash 64 roster to this day are some of my favorite characters to play owing to their simple straightforward design with awkward moves being a rarity among their normals.
There's still moves that can be altered in their kits to give them a stronger connection to their own series, but they aren't necessarily to "update" with newer content rather "why was this move never there to begin with". Stuff like DK doing something with barrels (although barrels being a powerful item is probably what makes Sakurai hesitant here), Kirby's slide, and that sort of thing.
Most of his normals are copy abilities. There's only about 3 moves that aren't copy abilities actually. Its just that Sakurai or Nintendo for some dumb reason made it so that none of his moves work like they do in the games (Forward air, Jab, forward smash, up smash (I think), back air (also I think) and up air are fighter, dash attack is fire which just means that down smash and down air are realistically the only moves that are just regular moves. Its like they gave up at the last two moves LOL.
i just want some air speed, brawl hammer, one or two projectiles, and a kill throw man IS THAT REALLY SO MUCH TO ASK FOR
He doesn't need projectiles if you copy a projectile ability, then it'd be a redundant or annoying projectile to spam. Plus if they fixed his Inhale to also eat and spit out projectiles properly then that'd help too. I agree with the rest though, I'd also make his Down Tilt his slide, its both a reference and also useful since he can get in close while crouching.
@@GBDupree I don't think you fully understand how hard it is to get a projectile ability from an opponent who really REALLY doesnt want you to have it
@@ccmonty994 which is why his inhale needs fixing. Plus Smash needs some more ways to deal with projectiles anyways, there's a reason everyone keeps suggesting adding projectile to every character, because its the easiest way to make them stronger. But that's not good balance.
To be fair he "technically" has all of those when you think about it. :)
... yes?
My thoughts honestly line up a lot with yours, I always see people talk about how boring Kirby's kicks are and it's like... Yea. That's the point. Simple, easy-to-understand moves to get a beginner more comfortable. The changes you recommended keep Kirby make him more of a real character while also maintaining his status as a beginner character, which is probably his true role in the series.
I think his tilts should stay the same for sure, but maybe change the look of the smash attacks just so he looks flashy, especially compared to all the new characters that just have tons of effects going on all their moves.
I think Up Tilt being a kick is fine, but then Up Smash should be his Needle ability (mostly in looks, it can have the same frame data and hit box as his current one).
Down tilt should definitely be a slide, so that his short stature can be more effectively used, but Down Smash should be Plasma or Freeze (so it'd be a big aura of energy or ice surrounding him), it'd likely be a different function this way though, so if you want a more a flashy move that performs the exact same as current then maybe have like Wheelie kirby spinning around on the ground quickly.
I had a good replacement for Forward Smash, but I forgot it at the moment, but his forward tilt should look more like his current forward smash (since its more a reference than his current tilt).
I also think that they should bring back his Brawl/WiiU dash attack, BUT "replace" his Neutral Air with Fireball (its literally the same as the current one but with a fire effect), and if you land while doing it then it does his current dash attack "burning".
I think his specials are fine in concept (maybe change up Hammer), but just do the fixes Mock already said to Final Cutter as well as maybe give it a tiny close hitbox so that if you use it right on top of someone it does the full multi-hit attack like in the games.
And allow Kirby to stay in Stone longer, so that we can more reliably mix up people who foolishly try to up smash kirby as he pops out, rather than just grabbing him like you should. And also make it so that Kirby isn't in the air when he leaves Stone, having to land after already landing with Stone is really slow.
I agree with you, people are acting like the Copy abilities are what solely define Kirby and that’s just not true at all.
The simplicity is part of the reason why he's the world of light starter
@@GBDupree want to provide a correction to stone - another reason people charge a smash attack is also that Stone no longer makes Kirby fully invincible anymore.
If he takes a hit over a certain damage threshold (23% I think) then he takes the hit and knockback regardless if he's still in stone form.
Another change to stone really would to be apply Kirby's current aerial momentum to it, something seen in the video during the Stone demonstration on the source material.
@@Eltrotraw Oh my god, I forgot about that. Its like they see the oldest characters and think they have to really tone them down to be fair, but then for all the new characters they just throw in as much BS as possible.
"Kirby's stone was immune to damage but could easily be grabbed during its short duration? Too OP please nerf. Hero needs a move? Give him a metal form that is literally invincible to everything, including final smashes, and stays out way longer."
"Kirby's hammer is about as strong as a smash attack and he can slightly move while charging it? Make it slower and damage him. Now make all of Kazuya."
"Kirby's Inhale lets him spit someone under the stage if he is fast enough and is able to actually inhale someone? Despite 80% of the cast being able to recover better than him anyways, we should nerf the frame data, make him take damage eating certain projectiles, and make all his spitted projectiles worse. As for Dedede, wario, K.Rool, and etc, just make it better for reasons."
Before discovering Mockrock I always thought of Smash titles as entirely separate universes with nothing important in common, really interesting to see how a character's history relates to their appearance in Ultimate
My story with Kirby actually went in the complete opposite direction, funny enough.
When I was a teen playing Brawl, my first main was actually Mario (Pika as well to an extent). I could have stayed with him in Ultimate considering he became amazing as time went on, but I actually gravitated more towards Kirby this time around for some reason.
After that though, I have to admit that although I do like to play duels without items, I have very little experience in competitive Smash - and it doesn't help that one of the only friends I have who is active in the competitive scene mains... R.O.B.. Guess how our matches usually go.
Still though, although I am thinking of other characters to master, for now, despite his flaws, I stay with mah boi Kirby. He's not the one I started with, but he's the one I vibe with the most as of late.
Also, thank you for including one of the best tracks from VVVVVV, a nice bonus for a great vid!
When I played brawl casually, I mainly played with Mario with a bit of link than moved on to Ike.
I’m surprised you didn’t talk about Brawl hammer, we need that back
i always find it weird that kirby's inhale only works as a reflector on certain projectiles. It really feels like something that could both help kirby and be something that makes sense since inhaling and spitting out is something kirby has done since day 1 and dedede has it for all too. Also would love to see the idea of more of kirby's abilties working into his neutrals instead of standard kicks and such
Yeah I wish you could spit out small projectiles as stars instead of autoswallowing them. And why is it that swallowing items is such a laggy animation. At least make it quick so you can actually use it as an anti-projectile tool!
Kirby is my favourite gaming series. It's where I got my start. I love it so much as well as loving Kirby in Smash. He was the first character I picked in my first Smash game, Brawl, and one of my mains to this day. Unfortunately he's been stuck in this rut since Melee. I'd want Kirby's moves to be more unique and interesting but that would go against his incredibly simple design (although taking more from Fighter for his normals wouldn't hurt). It's kinda just this trade off I have to do with Kirby. Have a generally not to great character in exchange for a fun, simple moveset from the mascot of my favourite series and to some extent Smash. It's a sad truth but one I'm fine with.
Kirby with Pikmin, Luma, or Monado moves him up an entire tier IMO.
I think you should have gone over the Smash Ability from the Kirby series, it only appears in a handful of games, but it grants Kirby his entire moveset from Smash.
It isn't 1 to 1, though, as there are several tweaks to several of the moves that change how you use them, the ones sourced from other copy abilities already in the same game don't function exactly the same as them, and the moves made up for smash have entirely different functions. I'd think it would be a great thing to analyze in the context of improving Kirby in Smash Bros.
I really like that they have him use his feet and arms for a fighting game but he has so many powers he could pull from. If he could use yoyo or needle or a long suplex esque dash grab his range problem would have already been solved in a way that doesn't make him complicated
One thing to consider though is that most of his series representation is used on other characters. He can't have a Yoyo move because that was what inspired Ness' 2 Yoyo moves. We can't give him Laser, because Falco (and he can also just use inhale to get that so it's redundant). Plus it'd look less like representation and more like a stolen move (like Ganon and Capt Falcon). Even Alolan Whip might be slightly designed after Suplex when you think about it (but you could make Suplex Kirby's grab).
So his representation needs to be uniquely his, or not feel like reused moves from another character. In Melee he got hammer because its an iconic move of his that both references his power, but also Dedede, while also being completely distinct from any other character including Ice Climbers (who never use their hammers in the same way). However, there is no need for him to use hammer now that Dedede is playable, but the point was that it originally was a unique move that was important to his series.
This is likely one reason they never gave him more moves (as well as the fact they rarely ever change any character's moves). And why it'd only get harder to add more as more characters are added. "can't give him a spear attack, what if they want to add a spear wielding enemy Like Bandana Dee?", that sort of thing.
@@GBDupree late but ahem ... star rod (and any magic godly star lookalike wand)
I widened out with a lot of the characters I play and feel comfortable with now, but I’m still a Kirby main at heart.
With all the added juiced-up characters, it gets harder for me to rely on him as often..but when you hit a sweet spot and get him to work..he works. And boy does it feel good to surprise someone when they see Kirby and automatically think it’ll be a cake walk.
So I solute the Kirby mains who are out here still toughing it out and working on finding ways to make him work.
Tbh, what’s more impressive?
Someone who wins skilled with a machine gun and swords? …Or someone who’s skilled enough to win with only a popsicle stick and a kid’s plastic hammer from Walmart?
I’m not here to be mainstream, I’m here for the ✨c h a l l e n g e.✨
Perfectly described how I've felt about the little guy since I started maining him roughly 16 years ago. As a die hard Kirby fan I'm always going to play him no matter how bad he is, but it's honestly so frustrating how unfair he's treated in Smash. If there ever is a new entry in the series I so badly want to see a complete rework of his moveset to something that represents his series more accurately. His inhale's main function especially in the original Dream Land has always been to take projectiles & spit them back out as his own shots, yet it's so depressingly bad at it even in Ultimate.. Why must the star shots have such short range? Why is he limited in what he can & cannot shoot back? Why can Dedede's inhale do this but not Kirby's? What's the point of healing 1%???? The sliding kick not being his down tilt is also one of the most absurdly obvious choices considering it's been with him in just about every single Kirby entry ever since 1993. At the end of the day I just love Kirby & desperately want him to be treated better in the Smash series.￣^￣
So even if he receives an entire moveset revamp and still becomes low tier, you people would still end up complaining about him because he's "bad". Okay
I’ve been a Kirby main since Brawl, and I’ve always loved this little guy.
I remember coming back from school and just playing Brawl for hours on end, items on, and with the most chaotic stages.
I’d come up with ridiculous challenges and sometimes play along with some friends, times were so simple back then.
Present day, I’m still a Kirby main- mostly since the Kirby series is my favorite Nintendo series for its awesome characters and scary eldritch threats.
I’ve always been well aware that Kirby is low mid-tier at best, but that doesn’t stop me from pushing him past his limits on or offline.
Regardless of whatever is going on with the meta, I’m loyal to my little Homie.
Thanks for making this video, MockRock.
It’s practically addressed all of Kirby’s problems, and with every buff Kirby gets- it brings me so much joy.
Kirby main for life. Since Brawl- until Ultimate, and beyond that.
Thanks for introducing me to the series, Kirb.
What sucks even more about the up special is that the sword ability has an attack that would perfectly fix all of this, up+B is an upward slash that's quick, lets you combo into a down slash, and actually functions like an up special, unlike final cutter that is an up close option only
But isn’t the sword move you mentioned just meta knights up b?
@@gormottigrebel9978 nah that's shuttle loop, I'm talking about upward slash and sword dive
Given Kirby's focus on simplicity, and the fact that one of his biggest weaknesses is low mobility, part of me thinks it'd be a great idea to replace the hammer side-B with a side-B based on Kirby's wheel power-up, being a high speed kind of attack that could (in theory) allow Kirby to force himself into close range confrontations. Part of me also imagines it should be slow to start but quick to end, so that Kirby can act out of the results easily, while also working to keep it ineffective as an escape tool. Another part of me also imagines it being a chargeable move purely for the purpose of "forgiving" accidental/unplanned side-Bs, so that brand new players won't accidentally throw themselves off in the wrong direction with it and have to Choose to use it. Buuut I'm also not familiar enough with the Kirby series to really say if any of that is even fitting for how Wheel works, nor if there's a better option for that Side-B that's still an iconic copy ability.
Kirby's life in smash is like sonic's moveset. It could be more, but it sadly is not.
Young Link too for me.
@@alijahaskew4644 they need to give him the fucking masks
@@thatguystandingbehindyou0_0 They should've given Young Link the masks a LONG time ago.
Hell Melee came out a year after Majora's Mask came out, so I don't know why they went with Ocarina of Time Young Link.
@@alijahaskew4644 i think the only zelda characters not done dirty by sakurai are the zeldas.
Ganon is a falcon clone, botw link could have used his champion abilities, and idk anything about the other links
I think Sonic has it way worse than Kirby
This video should’ve been called: “Why Kirby gets curb-stomped.”
another great character analysis video! this channel always has such high quality editing too, one of my favs
Kirby main here. You pretty much hit the nail on the head imo. Here's some of my thoughts:
I know Stone's current use is iconic, but I think a good middle ground would be having it replace his shield - kind of like Yoshi's egg shield, making him impossible to shieldpoke.
Otherwise, buff it to the moon. Make it quicker to start and end, make it break full shields again, make it spike throughout, any of these would be good enough for me.
His tilts and smash attacks are mostly uninspired, sure, but they're still intuitive, simple, AND fun. Keep those the same, mostly; maybe make some tweaks to make them combo better. Except down tilt. I still don't understand why that isn't the slide kick.
Basically all his specials need an overhaul, though, and I'd like to see him made _just_ a bit faster on the ground and in the air. His speed doesn't need to challenge DK or Puff, but he could still have some work done. Being able to naturally compare Kirby with Incineroar in terms of playstyle feels… off, to me. And I think for the specials:
-Lower Inhale's endlag and increase its range to actually match the animation
-Replace Hammer outright, or buff it to make it 1) hit below ledge, 2) break full shields, and 3) have passive armor while charging it. It’s already a big, flashy move, and giving it all three of these extra traits would make it slightly more viable while still being mainly just for fun (and shield breaks).
-Lower Final Cutter's startup, and either increase the range and remove the projectile, or buff the projectile so it’s actually viable.
-Replace Stone (but keep it as a shield), or buff it to make it 1) have less startup, 2) have earlier invincibility, 3) have less endlag, 4) break full shields again, and/or 5) spike. From a balance perspective, obviously just some combination of these would be best. That said, I’m a biased Kirby main, and if Stone HAS to stay on down-b, give it all these things and let me be unstoppable, lol.
Agreed as a Kirby main
...god now i'm imagining Kirby basically getting Wheel to operate like Sonic's down-B and being able to act out of it.
Top 5 video on CZcams. Kirby main since the begining and you have nailed every single issue I have.
This is the first video of yours I have seen and daaayum your intro is sick!
I would love to see more character analysis stuff like this. Really entertaining and interesting!
it still baffles me that almost every single person that plays smash first played as kirby
this is my first time watching you and OMG i love ur intro. its so smooth and good-looking. great job :)
Sakurai: It is a heavy sacrifice to include Ridley despite his great downsize.
Meanwhile Olimar and Alph: Lmao we're like 100x bigger than our original games.
They're still one of the smallest characters in the game.
Replacing final cutter with hi-jump would be so easy and so effective
Imma be real HIgh jump as an ability is kinda of boring, and one note every time it exists.
I'll take anything before it.
@@ivrydice0954 Which is why it's so perfect as a special move.
@@yungmuney5903...If this was smash 64.
@@yungmuney5903Special moves should be the least boring moves, what are you on about
I think this is the first video I've watched of yours outside of your Breath of the Wild video, and I really liked it! As a casual player, I've always been a big fan of Kirby in Smash. His moveset is undeniably simple, even from a casual perspective, but, like you, I can't deny how satisfying it is to "stone" your friends and family. I have noticed, though, that when I try to play as him against more experienced players, I often get owned. This is something I first noticed when a friend of mine picked Corrin in a matchup and I just couldn't keep up with the speed of the character.
This is a bit of a tangent, but it's also just crazy to see just how much more complex the movesets have become in Smash. The series' oldest mascots stick out like a sore thumb when placed side-by-side with newer additions. Kirby's moveset, for example, is so simple compared to characters like Bayonetta that it borders on power creep.
Feature creep maybe but not powercreep. Well, in Smash 4 definitely powercreep too, but Bayonetta got nerfed arguably harder than Kirby did from 64 to Melee. Don't get me wrong, nowadays we're getting a lot more characters with an unique gimmick, but we still get simpleton dudes fairly often; Banjo and Sora stick out like a sore thumb compared to the rest of the DLC fighters, and you could also say Corrin also did (compared to Ryu and Bayonetta back in Smash 4).
Heck you could even argue that Pyra/Mythra are also extremely straightforward since they largely have the same moveset except with "slow but powerful" and "quick but weak" modes, which is pretty simple compared to Zelda/Sheik, Samus/Zero Suit, Pokémon Trainer…
@@N12015 I guess 'range' is probably more appropriate. I think it's her forward smash that gives her this sort of "Drill Attack" that lets her reach you from halfway across the stage.
One thing to note is a couple of those generic punches and kick attacks can actually be traced back to Fighter Kirby. Forward air, the rapid jab and the launching finisher, nair, and up air all have parallels in Fighter Kirby over the years. Another change that I think is criminal is the fact that Kirby's down tilt isn't his sliding kick from the kirby series. It would help him get in while ducking under attacks with his small size and could be used as a combo starter that's more consistent than his current down tilt.
This video is a really interesting concept and I think it would be really Interesting to see this kind of video about either pikachu, falco or ganondorf.
Being a Kirby causes me physical pain. I just want my pink boy to be good again. I think one thing that would be really cool if there is another Smash game in the future{of course there will be} is that when Kirby inhales a fighter, he would get ALL of their specials and not just Neutral B. Sure it would be absolute HELL to program and implement but man I think that would be neat.
I thought about that too for a while, but then I realized that the problem would be the animations. The budget would skyrocket. It's just not an option.
@@jokx4409 Yeah I know, still would be pretty cool though
i think that Kirby should copy the ground speed and air speed of the characther tthat inhaies
What's really tragic is that his frame 4 down air has been frame 18 for 20 years! But seriously, Kirby needs a redesign that has him use various abilities for all his attacks. The workshop ROA Kirby does a great job of this. Kirby has so much potential; if he at least had a projectile side-b and a quick up-b, he'd be high tier.
In fact, Kirby is actually close to being broken; let him use any copy he wants in any mu, and he's top tier (Shulk Kirby, Samus Kirby, Olimar Kirby, Min Min Kirby, Snake Kirby, etc). But for now, mid tier it is.
Bro it honestly baffles me how you have this big of an audience, more than alot of youtubers with over 500k subs, but you have under 100k. You are literally the most underrated youtuber in terms of subs I've ever seen. Keep up the good work man.
That bit where you talked about your temple days kinda hit me pretty hard, I'll miss my mindless button mashing days
How to fix Kirby: by someone who plays him in Ultimate
-Increase Inhale's range just a tiny bit and decrease its ending lag
-Copy multiple moves with copy abilities instead of just the Neutral B every time
-Increase one of either Kirby's air speed or his aerial hitbox sizes (not both)
-Increase the aerial drift and recovery height of Final Cutter (also buff the projectile)
-Diversify his standard kit (his A attacks) a bit more
I feel like the game would get messed up with, say, Bayo´s side and up b into kirby up air, so maybe choose carefully which moves you copy
The second one would be a nightmare to implement.
Would be really nice if more of Kirby's non-special moves weren't just punches or kicks. Most of the moves he uses that aren't special moves are almost exclusively from his Fighter moveset from most of his games. I would love it if he got some better moves from things like PSI, Fire, Ice, Sword, etc. He has so many different copy abilities and yet he only uses Fighter moves.
Can we also talk about the fact that Kirby's Inhale ability, something that in his own game is used to inhale projectiles, can't actually inhale any projectiles? Like, his entire thing is to inhale things, so why can't he inhale at least energy projectiles? I don't understand that. Considering he is so slow, with terrible range on all of his moves, it would've been nice to get some kind of check to projectiles.
Good to see you back mate
Super interesting video! I’d never even thought about who the most iconic Smash character would be-much less about it being Kirby. The editing is superb (as always), and I really liked how the topic back at hand always looped back to Kirby’s welcoming role in Smash. That being said, I have a couple of things I’d like to point out that I would/wouldn’t liked to have seen in the video.
1. The impact of Kirby’s mobility in each Smash game. During the segment about Kirby’s viability-or lack thereof-in each game, I felt that there was too much of a focus on specific tools he had in each game rather than the game itself. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Kirby’s best iterations were in 64 and Brawl, which (correct me if I’m wrong) were the overall slowest games in the franchise. Seeing as how Kirby’s mobility is one of, if not the single most damning weakness he has, it’d make sense for him to feel more at home when the rest of the field can’t move very well, either.
2. The point about Sakurai prioritizing faithful representations of characters in their home series (4:10). This is actually something I’ve thought about quite a few times recently, and every time I’ve come to the exact opposite conclusion: outside of a couple exceptions, Smash characters don’t feel anything like they do in their own games. Woof Master Arf’s comment and even the video itself brings up a couple examples with Kirby, and I have lots more with other characters (I’ll list them in the replies if anyone wants to know). IMO, Smash is far more about video game faces than about video game characters or series, and anything characters bring from their home game(s) are usually only there as cameos. *NOTE: I do not think this is necessarily a bad thing.* Trying to meticulously emulate each and every character’s feel into a fighting game would probably get ridiculously difficult quick, and probably create artificial barriers of entry into Smash for characters with little to go off of in their home series (e.g. Pacman, Duck Hunt).
I never really play Kirby in Smash and haven't done so since Smash 64, honestly. I like Kirby, but he's just not my play style. Maybe I'll try him some more again in the future. That being said, I'd be interested in hearing how you would design Ganondorf from the ground up if you had the chance. If you had no restrictions, no prior movesets, what would you do? (I think this would be a good MockRockTalk video :D Maybe even a series? :D)
YES He's complained so much I'm dying to see his ideas!!!
That's something I've thought about before, the problem is that concept is already VERY covered on CZcams, and a lot of the ideas are already really good. Maybe someday, it's not that high on the list at the moment though.
@@MrMockRock Which video giving Ganondorf a moveset is your favorite? Which one represents what you want the most and the closest to what would be in your video if you made one?
@@MrMockRock greetings mockrock. I know this is unrelated to Kirby but I wanted to add something to your problem with counters video. When you said that fe characters's counters don't reflect how fe gameplay works, I think that one thing that should be brought up is that fe and smash are 2 very different games that aren't in the same genre. Due to fe being a strategy rpg, I think the devs had to make some liberties to make them function in a platform fighter. That's about all I wanted to say.
@@MrMockRock I have an idea that you could do. Maybe, when the Breath of the Wild sequel is released, you could redesign the entirety of Ganondorf based on his undead zombie... thing form. Not just his moves, either. His weight, his recovery, his physics, hell I think changing his archetype is fine as well. I think this would be a really unique video idea, as this Ganon has several key differences from past iterations:
1. He will (probably) wield a trident, which could put him on par with Sephiroth in terms of range.
2. His undead nature has resulted in him being much less muscular than normal, which could justify a lower weight and/or better recovery.
3. If we assume that Calamity Ganon, as well as all forms and offshoots of it, are based somewhat around zombie boi's fighting style, this could be used to provide some weird and bizarre attacks.
I did not mean for this to be as long as it was. Sorry for making such a long comment.
I would give kirby these buffs
Final Cutter, goes higher deals more damage and has less landing lag.
Hammer, slightly stronger, slightly more range, and kirby can use it at normal speed but he slowly gets slower the longer u charge the move
Inhale, less lag, bigger windbox, kirby can not lose his copy ability uinless he taunts or dies (kirby has a small chance of losing his copy move if he is hit) And the inhale shooting out part launches opponents farther and does more damage.
stone, faster, stronger, falls faster, and does more shield damage.
I feel like all his normal moves dont need buffs he just needs to be faster, but that wouldnt fit the character so idk.
Holy crap, man!! I just CANNOT get over how awesome your intro is!!
4:09 - 4:20 *Cries in Wario Land and Sonic*
I've been playing kirby recently and this video really helps me pinpoint his flaws! Thanks
But it didn't point out his strenghts. (Illegal frame data and basically intangable crouch)
I think it's fine for his tilts and aerials to be basic punches and kicks, because making every move a reference doesn't necessarily lead to a fun design, just look at megaman. But I don't understand why his smash attacks have to be so basic as well, considering the vast library of powerful abilities that Kirby uses in his home games, three generic placeholder moves are what they've stuck with for over 20 years? What would do is reassign the hammer to be his side smash, and make side b something more versitile. Since hammer is one of the most iconic abilities I think it deserves to stay. Up smash could be a needle attack, a water geyser, a leaf uppercut, a parasol twirl, etc. And down smash could be a mirror split, a bell ring, a spark wave, and more.
There's so much potential for a revamped Kirby moveset, you could basically make 10 different versions, each with entirely different moves, and they'd still all feel like Kirby.
Great vid, would love to see more content like this that kind of builds a narrative and helps contribute to the lore of the series/community
The moves I think that should be replaced
New side special: Beam Whip/ Charge Beam
A chargeable special attack.
Has 2 levels of charge.
No charge: Multi-hit electric attack with decent range.
Max charge: Two swirling beams of energy (Similar to Hero's Kafrizz) are shot forward, powerful yet a bit of ending.
New down special: Sky Kick
A downward kick (similar to Min-min's down air)
Unlike Min-min's though it can be spamed and canceled.
New up special: Upward Slash and Sword Dive
A diagonally upward slash followed by a diagonal downward slash.
Like Final cutter but traps opponents in it. (Similar to Ike's Aether)
If on the Ground, Kirby just performs Upward Slash.
New F-Smash: Smash Punch
Kirby Throws an energy charged punch.
However at full charge, an energy ball appears during the punch, but disappears when the move concludes.
New Up Smash: Hammer Flip:
Kirby swing his Hammer upwards in front of himself
At maximum charge, the Hammer is coated in flames and the flames also do damage.
Amen. Kirby's my guy and I feel like they did him really dirty in Melee. I still play him in Ultimate and even if he's far from the best character, I'll still love him.
Sakurai trying not to look biased is really hurting him as well as his series representation in Smash. Although ironically, the Kirby representation in Smash is actually more biased how it is now since 95% of the Kirby representation in Smash comes from Dream Land, Adventure, and Super Star (three of the oldest games in the series and all worked on by Sakurai).
90% of the Kirby games are manly inspired by Dream Land, Adventure, and Super Star. Its almost like the Kirby series hasn't changed much since Super Star?
@@waffleman8053 That doesn't excuse only representing a small number of games. That would be like if 90% of the Mario representation was from Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros. 3, or Super Mario World, with every other game getting little representation through source tracks and Spirits.
@@waffleman8053 well it’s finally gonna try something else with Kirby and forgotten land now (I know that blowout blast was 3D too but that’s a spin-off so doesn’t really count)
@@SonicTheCutehog Mario has evolved a lot form those 3 games and had many unique and original locations over the years and many new mainstay characters. While Kirby has mainly had the same Green Greens and Wispy Boss fights for years. I'm not saying that Kirby hasn't had new and unique places and characters over the years. Nor has Mario always had Innovation forever. But Kirby just pales in comparison to Mario. Thankfully things are going to change!
And Sakurai does not "hate" the new games. Literally all of the Kirby characters Final Smashes are from other games then those 3. He wanted to add a stage from Kirby's Epic Yarn, but it was scraped for the Yoshi's wooly world stage.
@@waffleman8053 I agree for King Dedede and Kirby, but where does Metaknight's final smash come from ? I can't think of a single instance where he does something similar to it in Kirby games
Best smash announcer impression ever in the sponsor section! Now you're just missing the echo effect.
Great retrospective and analysis! I find that you effectively merge scientific and emotional discourses in your topics. Plus your editing is brilliant as always! Kudos
Who the hell thinks Fox is the most iconic character in Smash? Probably some Melee turd
Why is your comment so f*cking funny
me
You should do a video about grabs/throws in smash. They have a super interesting place in smash's history. From smash 64's lagless grabs to ultimate giving kill throws to characters that don't need them (and depriving those that do)
yes. go into detail on zairs, airgrabs, cargo throw, command grabs, the dark history of chaingrabbing, suicide kill grabs, ult's new grab invul timer etc. rly good idea for a vid
@@thatguystandingbehindyou0_0 What new grab invul timer? Isn't it just the same one from Smash 4? Also I think chaingrabs can be kinda sick, well except for Brawl's iteration of them and wobbling. But outside of that they offer some different mindgames and combo paths for characters (and even going back to Melee ICs, they have some crazy desyncs involving chaingrabs that are some of the coolest plays you can see in the game).
Also Ultimate invalidating pivot grabs because of the inability to go through opponents lol. Plus a ton of characters either having microscopic grab ranges or just really bad grabs due to the same change
@@Brawltendo I don't think the average grab range is a bad thing. It makes you have to choose between standing grab and dash grab more. I think hurtbox shifting is the big problem. Dude. Yoshi's fsmash! Ivy's too! All dinosaurs!
@@Tonjit41 yeah it’s not necessarily a bad change on its own, but it is in the context of Ult’s engine just because of body blocking. I shouldn’t be missing point blank standing grabs or certain attacks, even in the air. There have been way too many times when one of my attacks just pushes the opponent back instead of connecting. Body blocking was such a poorly executed change that unfortunately had a lot of work put into it, but not nearly enough thought.
I think the core of the character is just how many things kirby can do. I think a nice huge change that could keep the same feel would be just to change his side special from hammer to a move where he pulls one of his traditional power enemies out from somewhere at the enemy, sorta like a pocketed projectile or pikmin that you don't have to pull from the ground.
Something like you can pull out randomly a knuckle joe, sword knight, waddle doo, wheelie, twister, laser ball, chilly, and rarely a walky or even a noddy as a backfire. After they are thrown, whether they hit or not they will disappear in a few seconds, maybe walk around a bit or pose in the meantime or be stunned if they hit the enemy, but the big thing would be you could use inhale on them and swallow to change up your special abilities to more accurately represent traditional kirby. Each power has a different niche, and if its too strong then maybe you can only do a limited number of moves before you revert back to normal (And hey, maybe that power shoots out as a star that can either be destroyed by the enemy or swallowed again!).
Inhaling opponents for their hat and neutral special is kinda too iconic to remove, but repurposing inhale as a "mode change" more generally and not just if your opponent has a great neutral special opens his kit up more and reinforces his sort of fun, do everything type feel.
4:33 I'd have to disagree, in MODERN Kirby games Kirby is not that slow and he does have a lot of good mobility options with his different abilities. If Sakurai wasn't only basing him on older games he'd be a lot better. All of Kirby's limits come from not being true to his games (which makes me sad). Especially since there's a huge difference between Kirby's air speed and his FLOATING air speed in his base games.
And hammer needs fixing, but shouldn't be replace because its always been a very iconic ability in the Kirby franchise (sad there's no sword representation though, its literally the first ability you get in most games).
Before you read, sorry for word spew.
As a self-proclaimed Kirby aficionado, I'm throwing my hat into the ring. Daddy Sakurai's core philosophy with his son is that he should be simple to pick-up-and-play while helping newcomers learn the game, which means his move functions should be fairly apparent. His current moveset actually does that pretty well. They just look really unimpressive, which is disappointing, but I can still understand the reasoning.
As shown in the video and from what other Kirby moveset suggestions I've seen, I think people tend to be a bit extreme with the changes. Mostly involving copy abilities. I respect it, but I think this somewhat goes against Kirby's purpose for new players. My main goal is to adjust Kirby's moveset to increase accuracy to his games, while still keeping it fairly obvious/educational for newcomers and interesting in playstyle. Here's my notes on how I'd tweak Kirby's moveset.
Though, uh, disclaimer, I'm not exactly a competitive player, but I don't think that should matter too much. Actually, I'm mostly just adding stuff. I know he is sort of a rushdown combo character, so I'm trying to work with that in mind as well.
==Main things==
---- Inhale: Let mah boi actually spit out projectiles that he inhales. All of them. Heck, he ALREADY DOES THIS with powerful projectiles like Samus Charge Shot. Items, too. Turn them into star projectiles that do a lot of damage, the stronger the projectile, the bigger and stronger the star. Let him carry them in his mouth like he already does with fighters. It'll help him against campers and be pretty funny in casual. And when he swallows, increase the healing depending on the power. 1% healing across everything is garbage. Seriously, why is his Inhale losing out to Dedede's? (no offense to the Dededes of the world)
---- Final Cutter: give it an additional hitbox at the start of the move, a quick horizontal slash hitbox in front of him that combos into the rest. He gets a reversal out-of-shield option that helps his close range game, and turns FINAL Cutter into a combo ender.
---- Stone: give it faster startup time with longer delay to un-transforming. However, un-transforming is faster and you stay on the ground. It'll make it scary to juggle the Kirby while still having risk-reward.
---- Hammer: give the hammer a fiery hitbox on the back while charging. In the air, use the cartwheeling attack from Melee, but less sucktacular (Has anyone even used the current air version successfully?). A multi hit move, a little air stall, give it range slightly longer than N-air, good damage and horizontal knockback at the end. Turns it into another reasonable combo ender.
---- Down-tilt: let him slide across the ground, but not too far. Slightly extend the move duration, but do more stun on shield and hit. Use similar properties and knockback to what it already has.
==Lesser things==
-- I once saw a suggestion to change his side-B to Beam, which isn't a bad idea. It's iconic and it could be a nifty mid-ranged move. My only complaint would be that its hitbox would be kind of oddly shaped for a side-B.
-- His throws are fine, I guess. Uh, let up-throw's explosion do area damage to things around it.
-- D-air looks a little weird to me, but I don't have any particular thoughts on it, and it's a fairly good move. Maybe make it more closely resemble Tornado.
==Other Things to Note==
-- No, he doesn't need more air speed, even if it might be more useful. Too much more and it would feel kind of wrong in comparison to his home series.
-- About using copy abilities in his normals... yeah, it would be pretty cool, but it would make it harder to tell the simple moves from the cool moves. When he pulls out a weapon or turns in a rock, I'd say that looks pretty *special*.
-- Technically, a good chunk of his moveset is already a reference to Fighter ability. N-A is vulcan jab + smash punch. His U-air kind of looks like the moon-somersault move from Return to Dreamland. His F-air is like a less impressive version of that grounded triple kick move.
If you have something against these, then rip into it. This was completely pointless since fundamental moveset updates were never a thing, but still, I just want daddy Sakurai to let his son be the star warrior he was meant to be.
As a ganon main, your complaints about him I wholeheartly agree with. I love him and want him to be better but he just isn't viability or design wise
1:06
How did you do that is so good
Props for choosing a Moky vs. Plup clip.
Does MockRock have any plans on making a similar video on Ganondorf's sad story in Smash?
This big bad villain is full of wasted potential.
every (most every) character has a role, Kirby's role is to make the game accessable to girlfriends and kids and anyone at a party who wants a character hard to die with and easy to play.
ask your gf's who their fav character is, I'll wait 😅
What gf?
😐
@@littlebadassgaming True
If you ask me, Kirby should have different copy abilities aside from Neutral B for certain matchups. If he inhales Fox, he gets Shine. If he inhales Ganondorf, he gets Wizard’s Foot. The list goes on.
Great video. I would love to see one on Little Mac
As a Kirby main, I can safely say…
That all of this is, sadly, true
Sakurai b like "I want characters to be as accurate to their games as possible"
young link toon link and Ganondorf:💀
At this point they are more like "accurate to their first iteration in smash"...
Hopefully the next smash gimmck is gonna be revamping all of the core fighters.
Young Link and Toon Link are accurate to their games, but can use different moves to make them more distinct from Link. Ganondorf on the other hand...
@@SonicTheCutehog considering a lot of characters have been reworked since brawl the three links and ganondorf have had it the worst of the bunch. U could say its pretty accurate when it comes to bombs and arrows but Hero spin while it's iconic isn't even a recovery move. All 3 links already have a suitable up special for each. Botw link could've had revalis gale and urbosas fury implemented instead of boomerang which is barely used in botw and hero spin which should've honestly been a down smash. Young link I think everyone has said this already but his masks more specifically deku mask should've been implemented.
If young link was the only one with the iconic smash moveset and toon link have moves from windwaker minish cap and four swords adventures
I'm just rambling lool.
Anyway yh
Ganondorf doesn't even have his own victory theme let alone moveset. I think he's the most disrespected character in smash bros
@@patrickewulum3394 "Ganondorf is the most disrespected character in smash bros."
No, its Olimar.
@@waffleman8053 Olimar at least has his own moveset. Ganondorf is just a slow Captain Falcon in Smash.
Not related to the video, but gotta say. MockRock's intro has gotta be one of the most satisfying thing on the internet. Period.
I just want to say that I love your content and I wish you the best for the future!
This is literally my only problem with Smash Bros as a series. Great attention and care is put into character’s kits when made…and yet no one is updated for any kind of future games aside from a nod or single different attack here or there, and the difference between those made pre Ultimate and those made post Ultimate really show just how necessary some of these guys need nearly completely new kits…and that’s really the only way the next Smash game could ever top Ultimate, if we don’t get as many characters next time remake all the returning guys to be on par with the newcomers
Completely agreed, in the DLC you have characters like Kazuya, Min Min, Steve and more that represent their games super well and have a super creative moveset but then you look at some of the older characters like Samus, Kirby and Ganondorf and half of their moveset are just generic punches and kicks that barely even show off what the character is capable of. Personally I would love for the next smash game to just completely rework these characters and update their movesets.
I think the worst victim of this is Sonic. Like...Fine 2 spin-dash moves in brawl where he's a rushed character fine. WHY DOES HE STILL HAVE 2 SPINDASH MOVES? Sonic doesn't even spindash in his OWN games that much anymore. And if you're worried about the utility of both moves being different you could change it by smash input or regular input. or just have one press and hold and the other be press and tap.
I'm just saying sonic has, Light dash, Boost, bounce and like...30 years of other gameplay things you could give him instead of spindash twice.
I'd say steve is pretty iconic, being the main character of the best selling game at the moment
Not smash iconic tho
When u think smash ur first thought isn't usually steve
@@ayyyyMan I mean steve was still one of the most oddly reacted to dlc fighters, and i understand people who don't have the dlc might not think of him, I would say that he is semi iconic for smash. I understand your standpoint too though
Smash 6 needs to have a soft or full rework of many of the characters, Kirby isn't the only one with this problem but for real
One change I‘d love to see is making hammer his forward smash and giving side-b to an ability that could help his poor air mobility. Jet or tornado, I don’t know. It would just be cool to see a little more copy ability representation from his games.
This is very late but great video as always.
"Dammit Japan..."
This fits so much of the video and everything else.
funny since Kirby is also japanese.
Most easy to pick up =/= iconic. Mario is definitely the most iconic smash bros character, don't even kid yourself MockRock
nah pikachu
I don't like the argument of "he needs to be simple so he shouldn't have a creative moveset" that a lot of people put on Kirby. I think the simple design philosophy can still be achieved with different moves. For example if Kirby got a whip strike for his f-tilt that functions the same as his f-tilt right now, it would still be a simple get off me tool while being more creative and an actual reference to Kirby games.
Those spikey haired anime characters might kill gods, but Incarnations of void can't be killed by sharp pieces of metal.