"Mind Reading" - (Theory of Mind & Double Empathy) Autism & Relationships 3
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- čas přidán 4. 08. 2020
- Understanding what someone might be thinking or feeling isn't mind reading - it's Theory of Mind. Some say autistic people don't have it, but they're sorely mistaken. But if that's the case - why do autistic people & neurotypical partners, friends & family often have so much trouble understanding each other?
#Actually Autistic #AllAutistics #AskingAutistics #Autism
Part 1: Dealing with Diagnosis
• Dealing with Diagnosis...
Part 2: "You've Changed"
• Does Autism Diagnosis ...
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Thank You. I've spent my life learning psycology to help me navigate an alien society/family.I'm an artist and spicy a.f. undiagnosed, and psychic. Learning to communicate and be vulnerable.
Well done on this ongoing resource. Doing a stellar job and deserve a larger audience.
Thank you Vik. The channel has been growing faster these last few months so I have hopes that it's finally starting to get noticed. Thank you for your kind comments and support 👍
This was REALLY insightful. I'm not autistic (that I'm aware of) but I have recently met several autistic people and possibly identified others through the similar behaviors. I've been doing investigation to better understand things like why people say autistic people "don't understand feelings" but THEY feel very differently and often say the opposite is true. This helps to fill in gaps and get to the heart of the actual nature of the misunderstanding. For me, as a gifted and neurodivergent-explorative person, I'm really understanding much better how others react to me as well as how I can better react to their behaviors and reactions to me. Thanks for this!
This channel deserves far more subscribers
Love this video. Very helpful, and explains a lot. Makes me think of the problems I had with an ex friend a few years ago, as I now think she and I ran on different operating systems. She rubbed me up the wrong way, assuming I would want to do the same as her. I didn’t. We are very different, and I felt she was bad-mannered for not having the courtesy to ask me.
Even when she did ask, however, she couldn’t handle my responses. She couldn’t handle no thank you, and would continue to pester me about the same thing I had said no to. I stood my ground, and was pretty annoyed at her disrespect. She would sulk because she wasn’t getting her own way. I should have blocked her sooner than I did, but it eventually reached a point where I had had enough. She still tried to nosey into my life, though, via my mum’s FB profile. I just felt she would be better off finding a likeminded person, as I was not that person, and that it was for her good as well as mine. I felt like she didn’t take the hint.
Thanks for commenting Joanne & glad you found it useful. Many of us have friends like that so thanks for describing what happened. I think a lot of viewers will relate 👍
I'm beginning to understand why I have "committed" so many "social foibas", and it may not always be my fault!
Do you mean "faux pas"?
@@robokill387
Those as well!
It only took a hundred times to understand I'm fine or it's all good always means the opposite 🫤
And only because of pattern recognition 😅
Oh my! This subject is actually what led me to realize I am on the spectrum. I actually arrived at the realization that I had always believed things about my family that might not be true on my own. That realization led me to looking for other explainations and thus I took the a.q. But I had not realized that ToM was an autie trait until recently but I still didn't make the connection. Your video really helped me understand ToM and my connection to it. Simply fantastic!
Llll
Trusting and believing it’s so difficult to work keeping things inside has been the easiest and best thing of all because I have made assumptions about people and found out later I was wrong and then it’s too late and yes pulmonary self diagnosing with autism and waiting for a referral to get professionally tested and also to get retested on all of my other mental health disorders which are at least six or so
excellent analysis, thank you!
darn gosh. this video is the best way i have found to understand this whole thing.
application to life past and present = 100%
New subscriber here. Love all of your videos. They are very differentiated (I don't know if this is the right word, german: differenziert) and very carefully made. Also love your voice (soothing to me). Thank you.
Your work is so important and I can't understand why you don't have more views and likes.
I'd figured this out on my own, and have been struggling to put words to it. This is what I need, thank you!
First of your videos I'm watching, from Malaysia here. I really like your video - you've got a great presentation voice (tone, pacing, accent etc), made important information understandable and interesting, and I also like the helpful visuals you've prepared. Going to explore more of your content, hoping to see your channel grow :)
Thank you for your work!
This video has really nice production quality.
Thank you 😊 Always good to hear.
I have an absolutely outstanding ToM, empathy, sympathy and intuition. My husband has basically none… he is not autistic but he has a very limited ToM. He often understands himself, his thoughts and feelings much worse and more limited then what I discerned from the conscious and subconscious information he has given me and the way I’ve gotten to know him over 20 years, when we discuss something.
The thing about autistic ToM is as you mentioned, focused on you. It’s your understanding of yourself and how you relate to others.
I can on the other hand assess how someone relates to someone else without going through the path of relating to myself. I can relate to both my daughters but I can just as easily understand how they relate to each other, even though I don’t share any of their views on the topic or situation at hand.
I both agree and disagree that asking questions is the best way to relate. Yes it’s better then to make incorrect assumptions but it’s also absolutely exhausting for a neurotypical partner to always have to express everything you think and feel precisely the way your partner needs it in order to be understood… the autistic partner gets much for free here as he/she can rely on the partner subconsciously training and adapting through out the relationship, the way empaths do. So to meet midway is best; ask questions but use that information not only in the moment but also for learning for the future so you can more easily understand without being told exactly how it is the next time a similar situation occurs. That reduces stress for both parties.
Brilliant and very helpful video. Thank you for all the great content.
Hello, I do understand that different people have different perspectives. After all, one of my special interests is "reading" and therefore I am familiar with the "TOM", although it is a very difficult concept for a large number of autistics. I understand the theory, certainly. What you said, makes sense. (Especially since you offered some "alternatives" that were more comprehensible.) The trouble is, when I'm "on the spot" and somebody is "arguing" with me, I can get "stressed" and "upset" and get "on the moral high ground" & stuff. It is hard to process "TOM" in "real time" and it is often only in "hindsight" that I can see the other perspective. (When it's often too late.) I think it is especially hard for the late diagnosed, such as myself. It is easier to "shape" the minds of children, than adults, after all. The problem is that in reality, there is "TOM" issues on both sides. The NTs probably meant well, but they thought we were "inhuman" or "damaged" and it is sadly only in recent years that autistic voices are starting to be heard. In common with most newly diagnosed adults, I threw myself into the research and became "angry" and "outraged" by the "INJUSTICE OF IT ALL!" I care very much, especially for my family & other "positive" rolemodels in my life. When I try to explain, I am often frustrated when they react in the "wrong" way. They mean well. I know they do. "What you helped me understand is that they aren't "wrong" as such. They just have their own "TOM" issues and they are just "wired" that way. It's their emotions that make it difficult. They don't want to think of me as "damaged" and so they want to deny it. (They have "autistic" traits, but are definitely NTs. If they were autistic, the miscommunication wouldn't be happening.) I look forward to the next video.
Hi Rowena. Thanks again for watching & commenting. Thanks too for sharing something about yourself. We always benefit from getting a glimpse of what we share with others.
This series will be ongoing for some time. There might be the odd break but the series has a long way to go. Next week's episode dovetails into this one directly so I'm sure you'll find it interesting.
You might want to take a look back at the 3 part empathy series I did in the early days of this channel which talks about ToM in the wider context of empathy and looks at some of the differences in how many autistic people actually process ToM compared to the more conventionally accepted NT view of it.
I had a "conversation" with AI that helped me understand that, no human could just tell me straightforwardly just how rigid my thinking could be when I am well versed in or passionate about a subject and that people don't like that. I agree, there's a high degree of empathy but it's like a delayed reaction. I have to relate it to my experience or deconstruct it intellectually.
It’s a shame that your videos have a very low rate of viewers…
It’s a shame that such a good source of information it’s so underrated… as always…
Because it's not. It's a mostly wrong video.
Excellent way of presenting this! Thank you 💜
Thank you 👍
Bert informative, thank you for this video
The work of Virginia Satir is wonderful for understanding communication. Highly recommended
Thank you for this.
Never allowed to ask how my autistic husband is doing. He just won't process emotional things.. The autistic person in my mind needs to work on their body grammer and communication, tone of voice and things like that so that message sent equals message received. Crazy making for sure.
We're trying more than you think
Awesome video, as always really helpful.
Cheers Ed 👍
Thanks for making this playlist! I am watching a little now and then and digesting the information in between.
Kudos, by the way, to whichever one of you is making the graphics/illustrations in the videos. They are spot on and sometimes make me smile!
Thank you Marianne. Autistamatic is a "one man band" & your feedback is much appreciated.
@@Autistamatic I do have trouble with memory, but I think you once said that your wife was helpful with the videos? In any case, a BRILLIANT and IMPORTANT job!
@@mariannehansen2691 Mrs A is my sounding board, my test audience, NT "sensitivity reader", occasional research assistant and walking thesaurus. More than anything else, her emotional support and patience is the rock upon which Autistamatic is built. Without her it wouldn't be possible.
@@Autistamatic Tried to LOVE this reply, but only figured out how to like it.
You and I are both blessed with spouses who support and inspire us . Hubby and I are Team Hansen. I hereby dub you and your missus the A-TEAM!
Great stuff
I believe my mother is autistic and I am nerotypical. I am always attracted to a person with autism. I believe my partner has one. My son has been diagnosed as an autistic. It would be easier if we think the same. The freaquent misunderstanding is exhausting.
My parents would accuse me of gagging on purpose just because they knew me for a long time and I randomly just started and stopped happening. Maybe if we could do this 24 seven people Would never accuse children of forcing that just because they know them
thank you thank you
Thank you 🙏
I think upbringing can also play a huge part in our interpretations. If my sister and I question one another it feels like a mutual challenge. However, if I try to go deeper, her stock answer is 'It doesn't matter" - a state from which she will not budge. I assume the worst due to my institutional upbringing teaching me that anyone in direct authority over me is out to do me no good.
Similarly, I find that any time a group is thoughtlessly exclusive (such as the Stay At Home Choir's insistence on handwritten Christmas cards for their card exchange which excluded me completely) I can be very unforgiving. These things are difficult to resolve when you are constantly being told your viewpoint either doesn't matter, or lied to about how valuable you are to the other parties when the actions fail to match the words. More on this topic would be of huge value to manyof us, I feel.
My autistic 8 year old daughter can read my mind and it scares me!! She types what I'm thinking!😓
Don't be scared of her. She's just doing her thing. Just don't lie to her or she'll get confused & it won't end well.
Wtfffffff😮
Instant subscriber here!
Hi and welcome to the channel. I really hope you find it useful and entertaining 👍
I disagree that all autists lack TOM with regards to understanding neurotypicals. Some of us are keen observers of people and their behavior and being that we have excellent pattern recognition skills, our brain forms correlations with a certain “type” of person and how they’ll behave.
I’m generally not one who ever brags about my abilities, because in fact I’m mostly very self-critical, but I have no problem saying I was blessed with a brain that acts as a natural criminal profiler of sorts-but with all people, not just criminals.
I can look at someone and make a highly probable guess of what they do for a living, what their interests are, what kind of person they are, and even how they’ll talk just based on the way they look.
It literally often boils down to their facial features too. I can’t put my finger on the exact mechanism, but I strongly believe human behavior and mindset that be predicted with a high degree of accuracy by facial features alone.
Are my perceptions accurate 100% of the time? No. But probably 98% of the time they are.
I know the feeling but sometimes reading people feels like slotting balls into a ☀️ shaped pachinko machine, on a turntable. The ball is the person's actions which gets shot out from a center hole, and figuring out what radial outer spoke /sunbeam the ball will land on is maybe the motivation behind the actions, however if the turntable starts suddenly spinning at a different speed or clockwise vs. counter clockwise, or the table gains a stronger tilt, (my bias/vs new information) that ball may end up spinning and bouncing into a different spoke on the sun-table. Sorry if this sounds complicated, but just a visual metaphor for how my brain tries to "figure people out".
I’m the same. I can observe people and be pretty accurate in my guesses about them, except when it comes to what they might think/feel about *me*. Then my low self-esteem and self-hate skew the results somewhat! But as a casual observer, yes, it’s one thing I’m pretty good at.
I'm subscriber 1000!!!! I was 997 yesterday, but on my partner's account on accident - so now I get to be both. :) BWAHAHAHA.
you attracts that which is like you
crazy weirdness is that happened to me after i rejected someone another person came in to my life with traites which where more toward what i believe in
where as the last person had traites that where common but also a form of co dependance and control that i found my ex wife had.
I call it "catching a thread", and when I catch a thread, I can follow it back into that person's mind and see into their mind. I know this because I have aphantasia and, besides dreaming, it's the only tome when I can see images clearly. And I experience their emotions when I follow a thread. I discovered this when people tell me about their surgeries/traumatic events, which happens often. I sometimes pass out because their trauma, I could feel too intensely as my own experience. Now, that's empathy. This other "empathy" people show in social situations is only for show, mostly, and I can feel the difference. I resent fake empathy and I do and I will ignore it and appear cold and distant., whatever. AND, when I follow a thread, I can be trusted NOT to use it against them, whatever I've learned from being inside their brain.
I have never heard this as Horse sense or nous 🤣
It goes by many names of which those mentioned are but a few in English alone 😉
dont say theories can be wrong. people can take that too far
Theory of mind is a symtom of instinct or if we think in the theory of evolution we will all eventually become clavoiant🎉
I disagree that theory of mind (ToM) is very small between Autistic people! We are not all the same nor even close. Sometimes it can actually be worse. I can mask to fit a set standard, status quo, or a stereotype to be more frank. I cannot mold or mask to a shape if I cannot figure out why or what it is. Nor can they for me. Hence, if we are too nero divergent even from the more understood equivalent, we can actually have greater strife because we have no base model to judge each other from due to autism being such a large spectrum. 👌 Think about it
I'm sorry to hear you've had such negative experiences with other autistic people. I can assure you that such observations are not representative of the majority experience. For many, the company of other autists (whether online or IRL) can be a momentary respite from the chaos of a crazy, alien world. Exceptions always apply to any rule though.
To add context - neurotypical people from any given culture share a broadly similar theory of mind (modified by personal experience, cognitive bias etc) yet disagreements & conflict are rife within a world where polarisation of opinion grows every day. Sharing similar Theory of Mind does not prevent disagreements or guarantee the ability to assimilate another's point of view.
ToM is a facilitator of communication in ideal conditions, but it is only one of a wide range of barriers to communication when they are not. Differences in ToM between 2 autistic people are widely observed to be lesser than between autistic & neurotypical people, however that is no assurance of agreement or compliance. Individual variation is inevitable & acknowledged in the following sentence in the film:
"Whilst everyone is unique, regardless of neurotype, the broad strokes are largely similar."
The disagreements you refer to may not be the result of ToM but other factors at play which may be covered later in the series. If you wish these to be addressed specifically you are welcome to contact the channel via email to make suggestions & offer your own input. Sharing our unique points of view is the key to growth & understanding.
This is only the 3rd part of a series which has over 30 additional episodes planned (and growing as suggestions have been made). The early episodes cover fundamentals which will be referred back to in later episodes as more specific issues are addressed. I hope that you will find these valuable and provide food for thought and conversation.
Autistamatic My experiences with formally Autistic people hasn’t been negative. Apologizes if u thought that. I will try to explain what I meant:..... I often get Nero divergents on a much higher level of cognition & understanding. However, there is still a break in the mindset because of having to switch modes. I have been trained to think in a different approach or rather manor than is native to myself. I have issues communicating mixed compilations of ideas inside my head due to all their multitudes & complexities. I often have mute out, out think, or over strategize phrasing. (It doesn’t always calumniate or translate well.) I will try a Socrates approach: If We As Autistics,......have to constantly be on high alert for survival of understanding🚨?Then We Must Exhaustingly Observe, take in, push out, learn, experience, experiment, reflect, & react with All people, All situations, & All available social stimuli through the perils of understandings by navigating through not only a Native approach, but also unfamiliar ones. If We as Autistic have to meet an alternate on their plateau of understanding, then we must continually get out of our own mental thinking & place ourselves the others ToM, behavioral strategies, communication techniques, & mental computations via a foreign medium. (Which hurts my brain, but I do it brain.) This is for our better understanding, but also is due to a survival mode which is accomplished by training. If we’re all being trained to think & communicate through an alternative mandated protocol rather than our own original & more relatable construction, then we also reasonably put ourselves in harms way the more we know & do not know because the more it makes since it can also make even less less since. Whereas, If Society at large hasn’t been trained nor is mandated to understand through the navigation of our own scope & mainframe. Then, Understanding itself is constantly shadowed by the Neuro Typical conclusions & standards. Therefore, If we must & can communicate with Neuro Typical people (even if our delivery is a bit estranged in its interpretation), then technically they do not have to communicate with Autistics within our own native networking strategies. Realistically, Autism doesn’t have a separate communicative ToM that isn’t shrouded by the Neuro Typical constructs because their standards of the status quo superseded our communicative methodology..... Leading Autistics with only the ability to communicate with other Autistics in a cloaked baseline. If we are commonly communicating via their imposed system & ideology, then this can make Autistics less able to connect naturally or authentically with one another without stereotypes of ourselves. Communication is definitely possible, but it’s conflated. This would be due to our training to fit into a already narrated understanding & our authentic model of commonality being underused, rarely developed, or even negated to the point of atrophy. Furthermore, this can also lessening the ability of our our own Autistic agency of self expression as Autistics, but additionally our mutual understandings of another’s Autism. If We are complacent due to needing understanding of the greater whole, then we’re also regularly forced into alternate attempts to Nero Washing us, to Neurologically break us, & to try to Rewire us which complicates our attempts to morph amid our genuine counterparts. Now, of course All people will eventually stabilize on a individualized & accumulated median mode, but a constant flip flopping back & forth would still automatically increase a greater strife when trying to understand what is the natural mode for us through the prioritization & maintenance required to acclimate to a non divergent model. ...... It’s the struggle of strategy, mindfulness, and losing our own barring of our agency continuously due to the imposed need of understanding the social expectation of a one size fits all processing approach. The strategy of ToM taught to Autistics is a foreign mainframe & is a constant filter that has become an understandably learned necessity, but an enforced behavior of the Nero Typical ToM of conditioning ourselves. This exist within the mental processing we undoubtedly & unwittingly preform even to each other. Therefore, we will unintentionally create a loss for understanding towards Ourselves of ourselves & with each other as a mutual. Making Relationships with Fellow Autistics strained. If We become the shifters of our own self shapes through the automatic ToM, Then We become the shape shifters of The entirety of Autistic Social Identity via this acquired mod. We’re unfortunately going to try to fit not only ourselves, but others as Square pegs into societies circler hole. Everyone, is a Not A little bit Autistic, but Autistics have been molded to be A little bit Neuro Typical!
@@why2goatdagame Have you had any experience with communicating with gifted adults? They are neurodivergent, too, but have the opposite problem with TOM.
@@why2goatdagame I completely agree with you. For someone who claims to be autistic and speaks out against the fallacies about autism, this dude sure wants to hold on to this particular old untrue stereotype.
@@Autistamatic I find this answer a bit smug and overly confident. You’re not the one and only holder of the secrets of autism, you’ve never met every single autist on the planet, and so you have no place talking so surely of your ideas.
I would not agree with that completely. There is another factor's influence that would discern the issue of ToM to better precision. it is not a double edge sword, unless someone promotes it that way. see who it might be and why they would want it to be that way. Go deeper!
Thanks for commenting, but I don't quite follow your observation there. Would you kindly elaborate?
Good visuals except.....Could be visually more inclusive: it was a strange with all the images of white folks except for the 'fighting' pacific islanders....
Hi & thanks for commenting. Like most small channels I'm limited by what public domain/creative-commons resources for imagery & b-roll footage are available. I do try to represent a broad cross section of humanity in the imagery I choose but it's not always possible to find a range of suitable clips to choose from. That's become slightly less of a problem as the "market" has grown since this video was made (nearly 3 yrs ago), but it's still a limitation that needs to be worked around today.
@@Autistamatic Thank you for caring about finding a workaround! I appreciate that.
I’m just now discovering that I am autistic. Thank you so much for this information.❤🧩