Dreaming in Different Tongues: Languages and the Way We Think
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- čas přidán 18. 09. 2011
- On the Same Page: Voices of Berkeley keynote event
Moderated by Geoff Nunberg
Panelists: Scholars Lera Boroditsky and Lily Wong Fillmore; author and Cal alumna Maxine Hong Kingston; actor and Cal alumnus John Cho.
onthesamepage.berkeley.edu
I'm in love with Lera Boroditsky... I didn't thought that in english ;)
I speak Spanish as my mother tongue and I sometimes dream in English but only when an american friend is in my dream. I used to be a Sign Language Interpreter and My family used to laught at me because I was moving my hands while sleeping.
Sergio Velázquez lol
I speak Spanish/English/Italian and I dream in any combination of the 3. It's kinda weird and fun at the same time.
"It keeps you a child within your own ethnic community."
That's a brillant insight that I've never thought of in a manner related to linguistics, but only in the way in which the power dynamic is late to shift in a culture that embraces a new adolescent longevity within the home.
Most definitely true: different languages are like parallel universes, each with its own incredible richness of expresive modalities. This is even true of languages as similar as French and English. When I read in Chinese, I truly feel I'm moving about in a world altogether different; my elation knows no bounds.
Lera is incredible!
41:45 the part about saying I love you is so true. In asian collective societies, it is rare for family members to show that explicit level of affection. It's supposed to be shown in what you do for them or for one another. It's not a mean to hide them, but the asian's cultures and literature highly values the abstract implication of something, than actually saying it. It is far more enjoyable to hear about the details of an apple, how red it is, where it is, how long it has been dangling off that one tree, the sun's reflection and the environment around it, than saying "it's an apple".
Yes! I'm Brazilian and when I noticed how easy "I love you" is said in American English I started paying attention. We say "I like you" - translating it back from Portuguese "Eu gosto de você",
I love you is just for our partners and family members. The funny thing is that one day I said "Eu te amo" (I love you) to a girl friend of mine. lol
It was very strange.
I speak 3 Indian languages, but "I Love You" feels weird in all of them.
i've only been doing Russian for 1 and a half years and i have dreams of people arguing in Russian ^-^. it feels amazing. I remember when it started its how i knew the langauge was starting to get into my head in a very deep way i felt
here for John Cho! oh, and all the amazing stories. love it.
What a great conversation! I loved it!
amazing chat. Really enjoyed you all ! Thanks for your insight
Very interesting debate, thank you very much to share such precious moment.
Geoff Nunberg was such a scholar and the sweetest guy. May he rest in peace.
Wonderful panel of speakers! It was very educating. I can relate to many of the stories that were told.
I don't know how I found this but I'm staying.
They gave me an IQ test, and I had zero ))))))))
OMG she's awesome!
Awesome discussion! Thank you. This makes me want to study linguistics.
I've had an accident and a big rock fell on my back when we are next to a waterfall. I got myself on the ground. I couldn't breath at that moment so all I could sound was like "o-o-o oh." I felt the pain on my back and I was trying to define it in my mother tongue (Turkish) like "Did somebody shot me by gun? What's happening? I remember that I turned my back to go back." I didn't know what happened, I didn't see the rock when it falls. I was trying to figure out what's happening as I said in Turkish but my first sentence after this was "I'm OK" in English because I was speaking in English just seconds ago with my friends. I was surprised even at that time like "Why? How could I speak in another language in such a terrible conditions."
this speech is so much beneficial for improve of english communication speech and understanding
I don't usually think about translating words much, because for some languages I just don't, I just speak it. But today I was at the graduation ceremony from my (German-speaking) school with my mother, who doesn't speak German at all, and I had to translate everything for her. Mostly I just ad-libbed and condensed and gave her the basic idea what was going on, but sometimes I had to stop and think, "Wait, what does that actually mean in English?"
I think the thing I miss most in some languages is the reflexive sort of "-self" or "own" thing that pops up in English. I can't think of an example right now, and I never really knew I missed it until recently. I was trying to write something - I think in German - the other day, and I knew what I was trying to say but that nuance simply couldn't be done in German. I had to find a similar nuance to use. And the whole time I was thinking, "I wish this were Gaelic. It's so easy in Gaelic, I just stick a 'fhein' in there!"
Oh, I've found an example. In English, I can say, "My own language". I'm speaking/typing in my own language, rather than one I've learnt. In Gaelic, that's easy: cànan mi-fhèin. But in German, it can't be said.
"Quite interesting chat." (E. Sapir) "You're right, buddy!" (B. Whorf)
good contribution .. it confirmed to me why German thinking is completely different from all others .. (thought pattern, view of things) thank you
hardly understand all every each conversations but the conference is really worth to watch :)
I find it funny how people say to me (usually in a basic-level language class), "I can't wait until I start dreaming in (insert language here). Then I'll know I can speak it!". This is strange because, for me, dreaming happens fairly on in the language-learning process. I might be barely able to string a coherent sentence together when awake, but able to have a conversation in a dream - and usually when I wake up and think about it, I know my brain wasn't just making it up, it was the real language. I usually dream in English, because that's my first language and the one I speak most, but if I've used a different language a lot during that day, I sometimes dream in that language instead. Sometimes I just have a random dream in another language, and often when I have more than one dream in a night, one is in one language and the rest are in English. Strangely enough, though, when I was in Spain, the language a dreamt the most in was German. I have no idea why, because I was speaking Spanish and occasionally English the whole time, never German.
Rachel Hay
Had a dream in a Japanese looking place speaking Japanese I guess... Never been to Japan knew nothing about Japan. Learned years later the place I dreamed of is real... Very unlikely that I was speaking and understanding Japanese fluently, but it's an interesting and somewhat haunting thought.
i dream in images and actions, i've never had to use language to my knowledge, i'm mono lingual, but my ex wife is japanese and my son is fluent in both.
Amazing. Keep up the great work.
Very interesting topics to research on further.
lol In London there are soo many languages in one day I heard Swedish, Danish, Spanish, Turkish, Urdu, Finnish,Arabic, Russian and French. Embrace your language. love it! :)
and what about Polish, it said to be the most spoken language in UK after English..
Yeh, I know...in fact I'm actually surprised they don't teach Polish in schools..I really think they should.
I'm a native English speaker and these stories give me hope when learning Chinese. It also gives me hope learning Korean...in Chinese.
My impression is that it is much easier to become fluent in a foreign language that is not a heritage language. There seems be too much emotional baggage associated with a heritage language that hinders fluency in later life.
interesting thought
Thoughts and dreams do not have a language. Thoughts are abstract. We translate them into words of a language in our minds and we then we speak those translated words. The translation from abstract thoughts to words in our minds is so rapid because of constant practice that we are unable to resolve them into the two distinct steps that are actually occurring. So we erroneously conclude that we think in a language. With practice we can develop self-awareness to such an extent that we can resolve the two distinct steps occurring - formation of abstract thoughts followed by translation into words.
Similarly we do not dream in any language. Dreams are abstract. We can dream of eating a hamburger or chopping firewood or of any other activity, including speaking in a particular language. That doesn't mean we dream in that language.
Our minds are not actually constrained by fetters imposed by human culture and society, like language. We ought put in more effort to free ourselves of the burdens and fetters that human species and human society impose upon us.
VEry interesting and I learned a lot! Thanks for the video. It was very educational!
The "i love you" part is soooooo true
Raised in a three language environment, I was selectively mute until age 18, this is very painful subject.
Spanish is my mother tongue, then i learned English & Italian as my second languages & this is kind of weird, but i learned french when i was 59 (im 64 yrs old now in 2019) then at 61 one i learned portuguese & the wierdest thing is that i used to dream in french in 1979 40 yrs ago!!! When the only languages i knew back then in addition to my mother tongue spanish were; english & italian french is my weakest language i took took proficiency test & the results 3 times was b1 level , the thing is that i usually dreamed a lot arguing in french except that the last time i dreamt that i was talking to Claudia Cardinale, & president Macron from France about pollution in the worlds most populated cities the languages i dream the most are spanish & english most of the time in portuguese very seldom even though my level in portuguese is at the end of b2.the human brain never stops to amaze me!!!
I agree with this. In Europe, being bilingual, or speaking several languages is VERY normal in many countries, and there isn't any sense of seclusion. In the U.S., take any city, and you will find neighbourhoods which are of a particular people/race who still speak their family's language. It isn't as common here in Europe, even though it still exists a little bit. It's interesting!
this video is great! thanks!!!!
Children recognize that if they want to be able to optimize their acceptance and integrate into the economy they must master that language used by the population.
Russian accents are very distinctive and a pleasure to listen to. My heritage is Russian/Ukrainian and I felt very comfortable and at home when I visited St. Petersburg.
fascinating
Very nice, I enjoyed it a lot!
Thank you!!!
The Russian woman has an absolutely jaw-dropping American accent. I've been studying Russian for five years, and not once was there a single betrayal of her mother tongue. I would've honed in on it immediately.
Wow.
This may be because Americans are exposed to foreign accents so often that some non-native accents are no longer classed as foreign.
Haha "umchinae" @1:34:30 - Obviously a lot is lost in John's translation, but I think that was the point! This panel resonates so much with me as a 1st gen Chinese-American with immigrant parents who don't speak English. To Maxine's point, my family has never said "I love you" to each other. Only recently did I tell my mom, "I love you" in English. That's over 20 years of never saying it. On a side note, I've also had fluent dreams in Korean and French (I've "studied" some but speak neither!)
BILINGUALISM is the KEY :) RESPECT for and learning in BOTH languages :) including SIGN languages :) An excellent video- thought provoking !!!! :)
In the youtube search box type "Ugly Thanks" it's the third one down. It's a language I developed to talk to youtubers who have lost their souls. Works like a charm too.
we think in the way we spoke
I just enjoyed all the video. I speak 3 languages but I have to admit that I only dream in my first language (spanish) somitimes I speak english or german without having any accent but I know that it's a dream.
I speak 4 languages and i have dreams in all of them. Sometimes i speak them very well, correctly and without mistakes, sometimes i try to find the suitable words and i just can't. And every time when i wake up i want to speak to the language i dreamed of...weird but nice!
This was interesting and funny! :)
For the first question ... the answer is kids learning multiple languages do slow down compared to monolingual kids... but the catch is after a certain point they catch up and are at pair in English plus they have another language ...
Haha, funny that. No doubt it's in everyone's advantage to learn English, just the same as it would be advantageous for you to know Spanish or English. English is actually quite difficult to learn and not at all an easy language to master. I know that English is a widespread language that is understood on a basic level throughout most countries of the world because of pop culture, but it really shouldn't be taken for granted. A lot of people find it just as hard as Spanish might be to you ;)
i totally agree , when i started russian i felt a complete..baby like i could never have imagined the grammar and how it would differ to :).
I've never done that, but I have woken up talking to myself in another language instead of English. I do it with Spanish a lot. I sometimes think in English in my head, but for some reason or another, I just slip into Spanish, linger there, and come back to English.
57:50 Awesome point.
im a native english speaker (australia) and never spoke (or learnt) another language until highschool where I had to finish my last 3 yrs in japan. I dont rememberexactly when my thinking switched to japanese only, but sometime beforehand, i had dreams in japanese and upon waking I would be so mentally exhausted haha. After i finished highschool and returned to aust it took me about 6months to fix my grammer. Languages are fun.
I told my wife to pack her bags... I’ve met the perfect woman. Lera is amazing. Oye!
Actually right away, when she started speaking: 21:21-21:24 her accent popped up immediately. And it is her r's. See, Russians with bad accent (those who does not even try to pronounce english r's but just substitute them with Russian "р"), have r's as hard as arabic accent r's for exemple. However, when we try to pronounce "english" r... then it sounds way too soft, softer then American one. And it is recognizable immediately, at least for my ear.
like this !
Interesting. As a Dutch person, after 10 minutes it occurred to me that nobody comes from a background where it is completely normal as a kid to be prepared to learn at least three other languages in school.
As a child when we moved to Denmark from the Netherlands I never wanted to give up my mother tongue. It's very strange to me to hear that children want to give up their mother tongue just to be accepted... It has always wondered me why some children didn't want to speak their parents' language. Maybe because I'm interested in languages. I don't know.
Not exactly, but sometimes I have a hard time pinning down what language I use inside my head for my own thoughts... Sometimes it's just the language I'm using the most at a given moment, but most times I feel I just think in concepts, regardless of language. (btw, I speak 5-6 languages, although most of them are inside the same family)
1:37- Re: Saying I love you to people.This was virtually unheard of in Ireland 25 years ago: definitely a product now of overdosing on American culture. In fact when I was a kid it was a constant source of amusement to us when kids on TV would say "I love you dad". Seemed very forced and ridiculous to us. Point being that it seems culture and language are not mutually exclusive. Great talk!
I like learning foreign languages
The problem is that I always learn languages
that are similar to one that I already speak
because of the vocabulary
The way of language develops always fascinated me. Somehow it is kind of true that English is a lot easier to learn than Chinese when absorbing the key knowledge within a subject instead of focusing on learning the language itself. In another words the complex of Chinese slows down the learning process, however the literature beauty of Chinese language is boundless!
It's 2020 and I'm still drinking water on behalf of the moderator.
Dr. Boroditsky the example you offered in 1:32:00 " недоперепила" is not quite a commonly used word, it's more like a made-up-to-amuse word to make Russian sound super-complicated when it is not, although I have to admit it illustrates its possibilities. In my whole life I have never heard one use this word in such a weird form.
Masallah cok bilgili birine benziyorsun. Ben Belçikada yasiyorum, dogma büyüme buraliyim, bu yüzden ana dilim Türkçe'den sonra dogal olarak Hollandaca ve Fransizca ögrendim okulda (Belçikanin yerli dilleri bu ikisi.) Daha sonra film seyrederek Ingilizce ve Hintçe ögrendim tamamen sans. Ve çok sükür fazlasitla yetiyor bu bes dil bana :)
Son bir sorum olacak, Üniversitede ne okudunuz, ve su an ne is yapiyorsunuz çok merak ediyorum?
In the UK we have a poor history of speaking foreign languages but its improving . But of course its a being an native English speaker as everyone in Europe speaks English. Now I speak fluent French and Spanish and my kids both speak French. The Dutch all seem to be trilingual from an early age.
Hace un rato me heche una pestaña y empecé a soñar en griego, no es la primera vez que me pasa,no me acuerdo del sueño y creo que eso no importa mucho, lo que me llama la atención es soñar en un idioma que no tiene nada que ver conmigo pues no conosco a ningún griego y ese país me es indiferente, no creo conocer más de 5 etimologías griegas en fin nada que ver es más en el minuto 4:47 una mujer dice en este video como se dice buenas noches en griego y no entendí nada y como en mis sueños bien que puedo entender, he soñado en otros idiomas que he estudiado pero pues eso se me hace hasta cierto punto normal,pero soñar en un idioma que no conosco se me hace muy raro, decia Aristoteles "no hay nada en nuestra mente que no venga de nuestros sentidos", pues no sé si tenga razón, ni ayer ni hoy fuí a un restaurant griego, ni escuche música griega etc de cualquier forma es interesante ver una conferencia sobre neurociencias que toque éste tema.
At 1:31:05, "madu" from Indonesian also means "honey".
Exactly. That is how polygamy is viewed by men. It is a loanword.
Very interesting video, a lot of interesting thoughts, but I want to mention - wow! Lera is so attractive! And her English doesn't look like her second language.
Vice Principal Craft has come far.
Wow, that's pretty much what happened to me except that I went from Venezuela (Spanish) to the US. I hate when I don't remember a basic word in Spanish, it makes me feel stupid xD
the actor who plays that role yes
i seak 2 languages also i can understand other two dialects but these are enough because english is an international and sufficient therefore no need for any other languages
I wish there was some representation of Indian languages and the impact if being exposed to multiple languages as s a culture what effect it has ?
I dream In english some times but always related to my job
Jamie was here!
As you guessed right, I didn't even know there was a language called Bashkir. I had to check it out on google maps :) I'm Turkish btw, I'm guessing they're close languages since it's Turkic?
So, how come you learned all these other languages then? Did you study languages or something at the University?
my ex wife is japanese and i always say that what i miss most is japanese women gossiping, the sing song way they speak, but japanese seems very gender oriented, men speak much more gutterally. an ex-girlfriend, and friend, of mine speaks spanish, french english and german, and listening to her talking to family always sounds like a heated argument is going on, and it's odd when single words or phrases in english creep into the conversation, i wonder what differences being able to vocalise different concepts in the appropriate language that makes. this cutting the phrenum is interesting because my mother always says she was worried i would talk with a lisp, i hadn't thought about that for years and now it seems a common bit of mythology. another interesting observation, that maxine hong says it's hard to say i love you in chinese, my ex-wife wouldn't hold hands in public because "it's not the japanese way", and the approximation to "i love you" is tsuki-da, "i like you". i'm not sure expressivitey is a word, google suggests expressiveness, americans "make up" words, the english "create words" - jus sayin. - on learning: it takes a lifetime to learn (guitar) so the sooner you start, the longer it takes. on the subject of schools our son went to japanese school one day a week, one morning in fact, he and his whole class passed GCSE japanese a year early, the school is great for teaching, but also being relaxed, i enjoyed japanese school more than the english schools, parents are much more involved, i wish there was more crossover. on the dream thing, i've never had a dream that had dialogue, i dream situations and events, but i don't recall ever having had to use language...
I said something in my first language I didn't know I knew how to say, then immediately wrote it down so I wouldn't forget. haha, so weird!
Interesting about the Scottish accent. It does happen, regularly. Scots would immediately identify them as Scots, as opposed to English.
how does that work?
the sapir-whorf hypothesis has been discredited a long time ago. Berkeley has a social agenda for trying to keep it in the academy, because it provides a social conscience for preserving languages and respecting other cultures. while this is noble and righteous, we don't need discredited theories to ground social initiatives. but that's why they do it, not because it is scientifically verifiable.
justin collins Why do you want "small" languages thrive? If the reason for language is communication, dedicating precious resources to its preservation is the least of my worries. I am more concerned with the native speakers of that language being 'left behind', for affluent English speakers to feel better about themselves in the name of multi-culturism. The ESL program in the US is a prime example of good intentions keeping Hispanics down for generation after generation.
As my name indicates, I have personal experience with this issue, both as an individual who is not a native English speaker, and as an educator, and currently, as a lawyer. However well-intentioned ESL may be, the result is that Hispanics in America do not learn effective English communication, which holds them back from entire fields of employment. I'm amused at your example of Asians: what percentage of Asian immigrants are employed in professional fields where English skills are necessary, as opposed to manual labor? compare and contrast with the percentage of Hispanics. Are you not willing to consider that the lack of an ESL program for Asians may be a major factor in their success in accessing professional fields? I'm all for a language surviving on its own, as long as it serves the purpose for which it exists: communication. Nostalgia should play no role. Natural selection is just as effective in linguistics as it is in genetics, in assuring the survival of the species.
the strong deterministic version of the sapir-whorf hypothesis is discredited. That language may influence the way we conceptualize the world is acknowledged by many scholars and is a corner stone of many studies.
When people know that an audio sample of their speech is being taken, they do not pronounce their words the way they would normally. Instead, they pronounce their words the way they believe is "proper English". Glaring example: people who would normally pronounce the word "wash" as "worsh", say "wash" when the tape recorder is running.
When Maxim says the word "lie," at 1:30, I can't figure out the word at all. After some googling, I finally figure out the word is "li" just like in the caption. Her "peasant dialect" sounds likely a dialect from Canton province, and "lie" is the pronounciation for the character.
Has anyone else woken themselves up screaming something in their second or third language, but not understood what they were saying in the daze after waking up? It's happened to me at least once...
I am not sure what you mean by "Russian stress patterns" but probably you are right about this, since she's been in US since she was 12, if I remember correctly. My son is 30 yo and has been in US since he was 10. I do not hear his accent but he says that in rare occasions people do hear his accent. Go figure...
What a bunch of thirsty people! (The minute they get on stage, they start drinking.)
That's the secret of a good public speaker, having water changes your physiology, in turn, it changes your emotions and motion - the thought flow goes well.
@@sairanikhatimam, is that really so? As in, proven by physiologists and psychologists and suchlike?
@@mortschubert3909 Yeah. I studied Psychology,NLP etc the study of body language emphasises it.
A sense of being not accepted is too hard and sensible for children to go through.
by the way did he take a picture with john after that?
HAROLD !!!!
I would like to say same story for me but with Spanish. It really messed up my spoken language mainly because I randomly cannot recall the English words for something that I am trying to describe.
I globe trot in my dreams all the time. wake up in a Japanese airport. wake up in the streets of Mongolia or China. Its all fun and all so mysterious.
Remarkably undiverse panel on diversity in language! Ah, the new hpyocrisy resembles it's father and mother both. This could have been some much more as a discussion with a wider net of speakers.
hi,
QUESTION does anyone here dream without sound. In my dreams there's never sound or speach? I am sometimes aware that something has been said and I understand what has been spoken without ever hearing the words.
gateshead1000 It happens sometimes as if the voice and picture being told separately ,or sounds like non consistent subs sometimes.
how would that be possible???
with Brown Leather?
is there any problem with the word "andale"?
It is not that there are no words for 'I love you' in Chinese because there are, it is just the Chinese are not so straightforward as their Western counterparts. There are numerous ways of communicating love: verbal encouragement, words of appreciation, quality time spend with the loved ones, acts of service - you name it - and they vary across cultures. It is a cultural thing. I am surprised how some people keep resorting to false equivalence (41:23): equating language with culture when the two things are not equal. History knows a lot of examples when the death of a language did not lead to the disappearance of a culture the language was once part of.
Where does this actually start?
It is impossible to make language development stop or even die. Even when parents and teens speak the same language, there will be some loss of it for the new generation due to the gap between them. Feeling excluded for not being proficient in a language is a universal linguistics symptom. Can a system be called Educational if they exclude learners’ families?