big mistake, you do NOT need to be stronger then them when proposing subjugation, not even close, you can be weak as all hell, but they'll accept if they like the terms but when they accept they'll hate you, but you might not care
This is a very, very good point. I think I mixed up the diplomatic request and the vassal war goal (which does require you to be superior) but oh wow that makes it even easier. You do still have to worry about the relative power diplo opinion modifier which will also make contract negotiations more challenging
You do need some fleets though. If you are significantly weaker, they'll have a 750 opinion malus on any negotiation. Yes, superiority is not required, but you still need to be more or less on par militarily.
I was curious about that new thing weak empires are trying to do to the player. It's funny. They sent me subjugation. I refuse and say come and get it if you dare.
Another little exploit I can see with this is in federations. You could set Overlord conflicts to none, but they'll still have to join wars as a federation member, and you can set subject conflicts to all but they still have to go through the federation to declare. Basically, you get the loyalty bonuses without giving the subject back their autonomy.
I think the base -500 acceptance is too high, I think it should be downed to -125 to -250 to allow us to make prospectoriums. We should also be able to use favors from the subject to allow term agreement changes that they typically wouldn't do.
i see what ur getting at, but conceptually it doesn't seem fair at all, say I capture your entire empire and I don't want to micromanage another whole economy, you have no say. you have no rights. you are my servant. A much needed addition to the current "overlord" system could possibly be an algorithm that measures how you severely youe defeated the other empire, whether it be complete empirewide occupation or a capture of a minuscule colony which would affect their acceptance of becoming one of the specialized vassals states.
@@alexanderk2250 I see your point, but what about the people who got their vassals through Diplomacy? I also think that if you outmatch your vassals, I.E. you're more powerful, then the hesitancy to accept the agreements should be lower. Otherwise you have much weaker empires able to keep their overlord from achieving their goals. I don't think that's right.
@@alexanderk2250 i dont see your point. if you beat them THAT badly then you might as well have just conquered them. thats essentially what you've done. if your terms are "give me everything until you wither away into nothing" then all you're doing is exterminating the populace and you can already do that. there is _NO_ point in full negative vassalization. you're just trying to micromanage less but thats essentially the whole game, so you'd be reducing gameplay and from any perspective that's the antithesis of what you want. like you might as well put the difficulty on ensign and make the galaxy tiny, you wont have to manage as many systems.
@@butterball33 well heres the thing, diplomatic vassals arent realistic in the slightest, and even so - in stellaris vassal terms you still own there country regardless if it was diplomatic or not. Theyre still your bitch. The only reason a nation would accept diplo vassal is because you can annihilate them in a blink of an eye, not because they like you. Its such a horribly implemented mechanic since day 1. The real problem is that vassals aren't fitting for sci fi, its meant for 1600s not 2200s. Its a dumb mechanic that has never had place in the game.
I think, for the system, if I as the overlord is paying influence out of the nose for a prospectors, as well as the monthy loyalty changes, I think a vessel shouldn't be able to say no without rebeling,with the new contract being the overlords war goal.
Yes, but a little more in top of that: add a vassal demands policy type, where the policy options are along the lines of can declare war to enforce contract changes, or cannot. That way we get more differnetiation with our xenophile and peaceful civics who could never do that, and authoritatian and militarist and xenophobe who always must choose the combat policy. and that policy can affect subject trust too.
Too me this new expansion reminds me of civ 6 complicating the game for no good reason. Im gonna go back to 1.2 ive hated 3 so far. Time to go to mods i guess.
I was able to get a Prospectorium through a weird method. I proposed the change despite it saying it would be declined. They refused but STILL converted. The best I was able to figure out (and I could be wrong) it costs them influence to decline. If they do not have the influence it auto declines but still forces the change. Update: Someone one the forum topic I made on the Stellaris forum confirmed it. He proposed Prospectorium three times in a row and on the third time they declined but were still converted.
Thank you so much for the comment! I just used this method. For me I had to propose it 7 times (1400 Influence in total), because the one system vassal had so much Influence stored up. Thankfully, being the custodian guarantees you'll have more Influence in the long run and I got the achievement like that.
Some changes that I believe need to be done to make this DLC better: Forced term acceptance; if I want terms they won't agree to, I can invade them and make them agree. A way to balance it out could be that you might be required to have garrisons on their planets, for example, to stop a rebellion. AI considers other factors, such as your technology level, fleet power, and economic might relative to the player's, or if they have neighbors who have repeatedly waged aggressive wars, making joining you a more attractive option. Lastly, overall less difficulty in re-negotiation of vassal contracts. If they are incredibly loyal to me after a long period, it should be far easier to re-negotiate than it currently is.
Absolutely. I've been playing the Imperial Fief origin and by the late game I've pretty much usurped my former Overlord's entire empire and their former vassals. Besides the border gore being on a level between retarded and ridiculous, I can't modify my contract with any of my NINE VASSALS to something remotely in my favour without spending upwards of 600 influence per contract, and *even then* they don't agree anyway so I can't make any changes whatsoever. Can't make a Prospectorium from any of them, can't make a Scholarium from any of them, I *can* make Bulwarks but that's a waste of precious influence... It's a Balkanized mess that I've just chosen to ignore that's mildly helpful sometimes.
It’s hard to let the AI understand all the hidden agendas and motives in diplomacy through numbers. I think the acceptance and favor system have been working quite well already.
So far my main gripe with the dlc is getting a prospectorium, and trying to make a vassal a bulwark or scholarium, and they can't keep up with my tech even with me subsidizing them, so they switch to protectorate and still keep all my resources. So, the -500 modifier for each needs to go or be balance with positive, and when they change to and from protectorate we should be able to re-alter the deal without the waiting period.
Glad to see you include the subsidies exploit I commented on your last video, another thing I noticed with subsidies is that it includes the resources sold/bought on the market through monthly orders as income so you can probably get infinite resources by buy and selling them on the monthly deal, it just weirdly alternates between buying and selling month to month which does look weird seeing your income switch between +20k energy and -12k energy month to month
it is theoretically possible to get a prospectorium with the changes to deal modifier. make an extremely negative deal over time, then repeal all of those when you change to prospectorium
@@pedrolmlkzk "You there! Gimme your wallet and phone, your house keys, and your bank account number!!" "What!? Never! Just stab me!" "Look I'd rather not stab you. Just give me your wallet and phone." "Now that's a deal! What a reasonable fellow."
I think the overlord should have some modifiers that help with negotiations. Modifiers such as relative power to their vassals and such (more so than the current one in-game), or modifiers for vassals like obedience or whatnot to help them negotiate with the overlord. The vassal shouldn't have that much freedom to negotiate with their overlord, or the overlord need to jump through that many hurdles to adjust what the vassals need to do. Cuz at the moment, I dont see the benefit of having a vassal, and I'd rather integrate them into my empire. Hopefully they do some rebalancing of this in the future, cuz the whole overlord thing is a really fun idea, especially for roleplaying empires and stuff.
ive just gotten the 3 vassels max and I had to give everything to the prospectorium. It was the last vassal I could get. overall they need to rebalance it since I am also unable to change anything from the change in terms. You should be able to get favors to force them to accept certain stuff
Fantastic content as always! Abstaining from voting with the overlord initially is a bug actually. The workaround is that you can simply object and then support the resolution again. The calculations will kick in, and your vassals will actually vote with you if they have restricted voting or no diplomatic freedom. You can see they were forced given their desire to support is still lower than the support threshold in the UI. Given this behavior, vassals' diplomatic weight not getting added to your own proposals is also a bug. Moreover, the UI of vote indication to kick from federation is also not updated, your subject will vote with you when you try to perform the action but the UI still says they will vote no when they have no freedom to vote. So many bugs as always at launch nowadays.
Montu have you tried playing as megacorp empire with imperial fiefdom? Its fucking insane, overlord have 3 planets with 150 pops total - you'll get 500-600energy from very START of the game!! You have also option to build outpost in other vassal planets, go for tech rush, change consumer policy for 0.5energy and unity. Unlimited crédits, unity and tech! xD
@@datwhiteboi6256 Your overlord will fall apart on their own at 2250, but why would you want to? You have a super advanced AI empire guarding you, giving you 600 energy/month from trade and subsidizing +45% of every resource. With a deal like that you'll be desperately trying to find another host to suck dry the second 2250 hits.
@@iblobtouch i understand that but I was curious if it was like how on the shoulder of giants where you get a research buff. I'm a console player so I can't play the DLC yet.
I was very excited for the DLC until it comes to a situation: I had to go to war with 2 empire in around 2250, and managed to win them, and they became my vassals, but it's all meaningless because they can say no to whatever term I proposed. It feels like Paradox doesn't know what vassals are, and they made it to be some sort of "diplomatic". I thought it was cool to have vassals, and now I think destroy them all to get more territory is much easier
To refuse a new contract, a vassal must spend 25 more influence than it cost you to propose it. Also, refusing the new terms doesn't reset the timer, meaning you can re-propose the same terms right after the proposal. What does this mean? Your vassals compliance doesn't matter as long as you have more influence than they do, since you can force through any changes you want to the vassal contract.
They'll probably fix it for their broken refusal to accept anything. The idea is that you'd just try to annex them if you don't want to directly own them, as a vassal in the Feudal context served their liege in exchange for some benefits. Besides, those you conquer liking you instantly over a forced contract is a bit silly.
Personaly I wanted to do a "Unify the galaxy" run and get every empire to be a specialised subject, for prospectorium I HAD to use the "yesmen" command do do that, it was still fun though.
I had an experience about 3 months ago in a coop run as a mil-rush with virtually no tech gain while my buddy ran a technocracy. 2300 this man had megas up while I was still running the equivalent of space AKs and pickup trucks while smashing as many of my ships against an enemy as possible, effectively 1940's Russia-ing the galaxy. I became his vassal and I was, within 20 years, brought up to his level of tech as well as repeatables. If the tweaks are this good, then I'll probably be able to become the galaxy's problem even faster.
Tech rush can be insane. My record in the previous patch was hitting repeatables before 2255, and having a megastructure before 2280. By 2300 Fallen Empires were inferior in tech. First playthrough in current patch, no glitches, I had a juggernaut before the ai was using cruisers, and 4 titan/arty bb fleets by 2300. Working on my second megastructure and it's 2315. Current repeatables are 12 in all engineering and 25 in all physics, with 35? Influence in social, and 5 all others. I didn't even have a great deal of luck.
I guess the solution to the subsidy exploit is to just have it pull the effective production from all available job's whether you can fill them or not. As otherwise disabling buildings/ jobs is always going to be exploitable. I guess the other option is ai gets the -500 modifier added to subsidising the vassal same as the one they get when being tithed but that kinda breaks the system somewhat. Also would likely stop the overlord from from making prospectoriums due to the science subsidy along with bulwarks. There is a possibility that the -500 modifier on the resource tithes is only when players try to vassalise ai, similir to why players vassal lost dificulty bonuse's as players would get pretty insane amounts of resources from ai tithes with their massive production and stability bonuses.
the relative power in a vassal negotiation can go to 500 but takes a huge difference I was able to turn a scholarium into a propectorium by having around 1500 fleet cap, diplomacy tradition, making them love me, and giving them pretty much everything in contract
It is WAY too difficult, IMO unfairly so, to get a Prospectorium. Tbh my playstyle doesn't really need it as I have an economy-focused play, but I was just wanting to get the achievement done, and I just could NOT get any AI to agree to it, even vassals I made out of my own sectors just would NOT do it.
Yah, it's ridiculously difficult; it's bad enough having to use potentially buckets of influence, but you can't even use favours for acceptance. Definitely see changes coming to this.
@@kompav5621 It's extremely frustrating and I hope they change it soon, cuz sheesh is it frustrating. Like it's way too stacked against you to get one, when the whole point is to *become an Overlord* yet the vassals seem to get the most benefits.
A few things to note: 1. You can easily get a Prospectorium if you vassalize them through war. They'll be weaker and have at leat a 750 malus to the negotiation. 2. A lot of the acceptance is being steered over the number of changes. If you change a lot of things in the contract, even to the benefit of the subject, they will dislike it. This means it is generally a good idea to repeatedly change the contract to get closer to what you finally want to get, including transforming them into a specalization like a prospectorium.
I honestly love the DLC/update. I love when galactic politics is not based on hard power but instead based on soft power. I love being able to conquer the galaxy without just having to kill everything that moves.
One way that I was able to get the vassal to agree to any of the terms I put out off the bat was when I would win terrirory through claims and war then turn the new frontier sector into a vassal. I could turn them into a Prospectorium and any others and they were happy to do it.
had a start where I was pinned into a tiny cluster between two much larger empires. worked a treat to absorb one of them quite early. I was rather surprised they took the offer of miniscule resources for permitted integration. Sheer audacity paid off big. It's easier to get a loyal subject to agree to things like prospectorium than it is to get someone to take it as part of the initial offer. So, the way to go is to subjugate then specialize.
I vassalized (with the restricted voting option) an empire that had defensive pacts with other empires. When I went on to vassalize those other empires (that had defensive pacts with the first empire I vassalized) it showed my vasal as being on their side as well as my own empire (as my vassal's overlord). When I clicked to start the war, nothing happened.
I got a prospectorium and scholarium fairly easily. I got them up to 100 loyalty and relationships as subjects, then moved them to the specialists without large tithes, then each negotiation I increased the contribution as much as I could. Tbf though with my prospectorium I only really wanted the base resources from them to feed my ring world and ecumenopolis.
This update is pretty annoying with this whole 'diplomacy' thing. As a xenophobic, authoritarian militarist, it doesn't really make much sense that I can't force my vassals to do things they don't want to do. They start without giving me resources, or doing anything for me at all, and then I have to befriend them to do what I say? It doesn't make sense at all for my government type/species. Not to mention, with how long it takes to earn me resources, and how I have to literally convince them to do anything for me, annexing is just easier. Speaking of annexing, I just LOVE how planets gain peace treaties after rebelling... It makes no sense at all, again, as a xenophobic, authoritarian militarist, to just allow a planet to leave my empire and take some systems because they were upset at me. Oh, you have 30k fleet power in the system and 2k worth of xenomorphs on the planet? Nah. They get their peace and are completely safe until the truce wears off... Like, what? There's not even an army uprising, just an independence without any conflict. Sure. It's not particularly difficult to prevent them with a couple strongholds, but sometimes you're busy doing something else, they get freedom, and you're just stuck for years until you can retake your lost land.
yeah I thought the vassals must always agree with whatever term the overlords propose, because you have to win a war to subjugate them, but this turns out to be another diplomatic screen
I was able to get a Prospectorium in this way - set vassal in worst for him terms but with positive monthly loyality (no vassal wars, all overlord wars, no sensors, all holdings etc.), next when loyality reach 100 switch to Prospectorium with best terms for vassal (no holdings, all vassal wars, no overlord wars etc.). Next when loyality reach 100 again you can change terms for little better for you. Influence costly but it works.
Did you know the ai has to spend the same influence to decline a change that it cost to propose it and if they dont have it they are forced to accept the change i was able to turn a normal vassal into a prospectorium with max changes in my favor by proposing a 700 influence change and the ai didnt have it so they were force to accept it theres even no cooldown on declines so you can just keep proposing the change and as long as you have more influence in the end itll go through
Is there a way to force an AI empire to became a prospectorium if the player empire conquers it through a subjugation war? Or better yet is there ANY WAY AT ALL to get a prospectorium? If not I just don’t get the point of adding this type of vassal into the game in the first place.
You can turn them into prospectoriums. You go to contacts, at the bottom you pick the agreements tab. Then you have to click terms negotiation. Then your vassal can not be a protectorate. Then in the negotiate terms screen, the right of the window you will see where it says vassal. If you click on it, it opens a drop down and you can choose what kind of vassal they are.
Montu, I really wish there were timestamps so that rewatching I can skip all the stuff I already know. Would you mind adding them if the video is still relevant?
If I'm not mistaken, subjects abstaining from a vote the overlord supports actually seems to be a bug that happens when the overlord is the one who first proposed the law in the galactic community. In my experience, if you change your vote to abstaining or voting against it and then change it back, your subjects will all start following your vote no matter what it is.
hi montu, can you give a word to dev about giving trade route an animation? maybe from our capital to other nearest hub will had hundreds of smoll ship goes in and out from capital to another hub. and it will have more grand visual if we are corpo nation, it will enhance the game for me as trade nation. or maybe we got refugee animation (thousand of small ship that are damaged) if our planet received refugee pops. ofcourse we can turn it off or it only appeared if we zoomed properly
I was so excited for this DLC, I like to roleplay a pirate empire that take vassals by force with Feudal and Barbaric Despoiler and thought that this would add to the fun. But nowhere in the patch notes where I looked did they say that they made the subjugation casus belli impossible to get.
You don't ask them if they want to be subjugated to get the casus belli anymore. Instead you can ask them to be your vassal if you are superior in 1 category diplomatically and force vassalization if you are superior in 1 category and inferior in none. The distinction there is small but meaningful. If you are better than them in tech but they are superior to you in fleet power you cannot vassalize them.
The subjugation CB got rolled into an available war goal if you're superior to anyone instead of having to demand it first - It was in the patch notes.
in a recent playthrough i forcefully subjugated an empire that had a subsidary, they both had way weaker economy than me. after they surrendered, my income seriously increased from that subsidary, i was confused how an empire that supposedly weaker economy can give me 150 minerals and 100 energy credits so i came to this video and apparently the contribution tab is relative to how much YOU earn and not how much the subject earns if they give you subsides. no wonder they were disloyal they were selling their entire economy to me until i changed the terms
Have you thought about doing an updated guide on planet management with this new dlc i have been having like 15 planets plus witch is too much to manage. I know there is a sector system but it doenst really explain intself well.
Love your intros, very creative :) ... I had a bunch of border empires submit to me as vassals by their own request. Because I had been waring against them is there any value in keeping my spies there? Seems like its a no?
I had this problem with my vassals where they had a defensive pact with another empire I wanted to vassalize next and I would be unable to declare war on them because of my other vassal. I don't think restricting their diplomacy would purge their diplomacy deals and I forgot to check if forcing them to join my aggressive wars would nullify their defensive pact and i had to release them and use the console to cancel their treaties and revassalize them to keep collecting more vassals. Super janky.
from my experience, the new overlord mechanic is not enjoyable. i'd much rather integrate them as soon as possible. you have to do so much negotiation to build just a few holdings and get some resources from them. i'd rather just integrate them, build and profit as much as I want. additionally cheesing your overlord for free resources should have some consequences. ultimately overlord has way to much of a focus on negotiations, with the vassal having way more bargaining power than they should have
The only vassal that is worth having is a scholarium, because you don't need to subside them in any way, and it's main advantage is in the building you can build in your vassal capital, as it gives a 5% research speed for each science vessel for a total of 15% (don't need to have a scientist on it) on orbit, which means having tons of scholarium vassals can boost your research speed to insane levels. Aside from that, I use vassals as a diplomatic buffer on wars: "Oh, you can't attack my territory because my vassals are in the way, but I can attack yours by moving through my vassal", which makes offensive wars that much easier.
I managed to get a prospectorium vassal with a fairly standard contract. The thing is they said they would refuse but I sent it anyway and they accepted, then I tried it on my over vassal and they refused?
Damn, made me bite my finger when you said you couldn't get a prospectorium, meanwhile i get 2 by them offering to be my vassels. (as a prospectorium at that.)
In my current game, I got 3 Prospectorium vassals, those empires that I had created not conquered! I noticed that AI wont pick a fight with my vassals if they are pissed with me, so I placed those vassals to block any hyperspace line that is going into my empire....yes they are my meat shield! Now I can attack other empires within the safety of my home.....Crisis is anther case xD
It is pretty ridiculous how hard it is to get a prospectorium or even a scholarium imo, I hope they adjust the numbers a bit so I can actually gain resources from some of my subjects.
How do I crush the loyalty of a small empire already a subject of another overlord in order to steal it? That -750 makes it impossible to steal even if I am a lot stronger than her current overlord...
Lol that vassal thing being better than being an overlord reminds me of how china is still saying it's a "Developing Country" despite being a global production powerhouse. Gonna have to try that out 😂
Lol, that last trick is basically being an investment bank. I know I've made trillions over the course of the past decade, but it's been a bad quarter and if I don't get massive government bailouts the world will explode.
I found a very op trick, step one become mega Corp, step two, build merc enclave, step three fund the mercs till their fleet is hella big, step four rent the fleet, step 5 profit. So by step five you're fleet power will be so strong that the whole galaxy will ask for subjection as they will belive they aren't strong enough to survive on their own. How long will it take to do this? Idk I did it by accident. But I pretty much had subjugated the whole galaxy within a hundred years. Granted I did this on a tiny galaxy because I wanted a quick game.
big mistake, you do NOT need to be stronger then them when proposing subjugation, not even close, you can be weak as all hell, but they'll accept if they like the terms but when they accept they'll hate you, but you might not care
This is a very, very good point. I think I mixed up the diplomatic request and the vassal war goal (which does require you to be superior) but oh wow that makes it even easier. You do still have to worry about the relative power diplo opinion modifier which will also make contract negotiations more challenging
You do need some fleets though. If you are significantly weaker, they'll have a 750 opinion malus on any negotiation. Yes, superiority is not required, but you still need to be more or less on par militarily.
@@zlorfik2428 at the time I posted this, that was not the case kek
I was curious about that new thing weak empires are trying to do to the player. It's funny. They sent me subjugation. I refuse and say come and get it if you dare.
Another little exploit I can see with this is in federations. You could set Overlord conflicts to none, but they'll still have to join wars as a federation member, and you can set subject conflicts to all but they still have to go through the federation to declare. Basically, you get the loyalty bonuses without giving the subject back their autonomy.
Working as intended in my opinion, red tape and intergalactic treaties are the real enemies of the state.😂
Hegemony gang assemble!
Super potent as a Hegemony
@@attacheli9591 hegemony? Weird name for federations
-1000 chance to vassalize someone in a federation.
I think the base -500 acceptance is too high, I think it should be downed to -125 to -250 to allow us to make prospectoriums. We should also be able to use favors from the subject to allow term agreement changes that they typically wouldn't do.
I agree with allowing the use of favors for contract negotiations
i see what ur getting at, but conceptually it doesn't seem fair at all, say I capture your entire empire and I don't want to micromanage another whole economy, you have no say. you have no rights. you are my servant. A much needed addition to the current "overlord" system could possibly be an algorithm that measures how you severely youe defeated the other empire, whether it be complete empirewide occupation or a capture of a minuscule colony which would affect their acceptance of becoming one of the specialized vassals states.
@@alexanderk2250 I see your point, but what about the people who got their vassals through Diplomacy? I also think that if you outmatch your vassals, I.E. you're more powerful, then the hesitancy to accept the agreements should be lower. Otherwise you have much weaker empires able to keep their overlord from achieving their goals. I don't think that's right.
@@alexanderk2250 i dont see your point. if you beat them THAT badly then you might as well have just conquered them. thats essentially what you've done. if your terms are "give me everything until you wither away into nothing" then all you're doing is exterminating the populace and you can already do that. there is _NO_ point in full negative vassalization. you're just trying to micromanage less but thats essentially the whole game, so you'd be reducing gameplay and from any perspective that's the antithesis of what you want. like you might as well put the difficulty on ensign and make the galaxy tiny, you wont have to manage as many systems.
@@butterball33 well heres the thing, diplomatic vassals arent realistic in the slightest, and even so - in stellaris vassal terms you still own there country regardless if it was diplomatic or not. Theyre still your bitch. The only reason a nation would accept diplo vassal is because you can annihilate them in a blink of an eye, not because they like you. Its such a horribly implemented mechanic since day 1.
The real problem is that vassals aren't fitting for sci fi, its meant for 1600s not 2200s. Its a dumb mechanic that has never had place in the game.
I think, for the system, if I as the overlord is paying influence out of the nose for a prospectors, as well as the monthy loyalty changes, I think a vessel shouldn't be able to say no without rebeling,with the new contract being the overlords war goal.
That would be kick ass
especially if you fought a war to vassalize them in the first place
Yes, but a little more in top of that: add a vassal demands policy type, where the policy options are along the lines of can declare war to enforce contract changes, or cannot. That way we get more differnetiation with our xenophile and peaceful civics who could never do that, and authoritatian and militarist and xenophobe who always must choose the combat policy. and that policy can affect subject trust too.
to be fair, the specialists have massive restrictions and penalties by default, it makes sense that vassals might hesitate to take those roles
Too me this new expansion reminds me of civ 6 complicating the game for no good reason. Im gonna go back to 1.2 ive hated 3 so far. Time to go to mods i guess.
I was able to get a Prospectorium through a weird method. I proposed the change despite it saying it would be declined. They refused but STILL converted. The best I was able to figure out (and I could be wrong) it costs them influence to decline. If they do not have the influence it auto declines but still forces the change. Update: Someone one the forum topic I made on the Stellaris forum confirmed it. He proposed Prospectorium three times in a row and on the third time they declined but were still converted.
The issue is it also cost you influence as well... so hopefully you stockpile that influence.
Thank you so much for the comment! I just used this method.
For me I had to propose it 7 times (1400 Influence in total), because the one system vassal had so much Influence stored up. Thankfully, being the custodian guarantees you'll have more Influence in the long run and I got the achievement like that.
Damn
🤔 If they're an involuntary vassal, why do they have to "agree" to become a Prospectorium?
Some changes that I believe need to be done to make this DLC better:
Forced term acceptance; if I want terms they won't agree to, I can invade them and make them agree. A way to balance it out could be that you might be required to have garrisons on their planets, for example, to stop a rebellion.
AI considers other factors, such as your technology level, fleet power, and economic might relative to the player's, or if they have neighbors who have repeatedly waged aggressive wars, making joining you a more attractive option.
Lastly, overall less difficulty in re-negotiation of vassal contracts. If they are incredibly loyal to me after a long period, it should be far easier to re-negotiate than it currently is.
Free them, go to war, and then release a vassal.
Forcing people with militia makes total sense. Its what the UDSSR did. They used their military to keep their right of power
The subject system seems to be tailored more for human to human diplomacy then human to AI diplomacy...
Absolutely. I've been playing the Imperial Fief origin and by the late game I've pretty much usurped my former Overlord's entire empire and their former vassals. Besides the border gore being on a level between retarded and ridiculous, I can't modify my contract with any of my NINE VASSALS to something remotely in my favour without spending upwards of 600 influence per contract, and *even then* they don't agree anyway so I can't make any changes whatsoever.
Can't make a Prospectorium from any of them, can't make a Scholarium from any of them, I *can* make Bulwarks but that's a waste of precious influence... It's a Balkanized mess that I've just chosen to ignore that's mildly helpful sometimes.
It’s hard to let the AI understand all the hidden agendas and motives in diplomacy through numbers. I think the acceptance and favor system have been working quite well already.
Man it really seems like this DLC needed some more QA...
So far my main gripe with the dlc is getting a prospectorium, and trying to make a vassal a bulwark or scholarium, and they can't keep up with my tech even with me subsidizing them, so they switch to protectorate and still keep all my resources. So, the -500 modifier for each needs to go or be balance with positive, and when they change to and from protectorate we should be able to re-alter the deal without the waiting period.
Glad to see you include the subsidies exploit I commented on your last video, another thing I noticed with subsidies is that it includes the resources sold/bought on the market through monthly orders as income so you can probably get infinite resources by buy and selling them on the monthly deal, it just weirdly alternates between buying and selling month to month which does look weird seeing your income switch between +20k energy and -12k energy month to month
ASpec and Mondu, the masters of outofthebox shinanigans
Don't forget Monu!
@@MontuPlays I forgot the Montu too, he seems like a good shinanigans maker
it is theoretically possible to get a prospectorium with the changes to deal modifier. make an extremely negative deal over time, then repeal all of those when you change to prospectorium
"Theoretically"
As I said, I havent managed it yet
slowly boiling the frog lol
@@pedrolmlkzk "You there! Gimme your wallet and phone, your house keys, and your bank account number!!"
"What!? Never! Just stab me!"
"Look I'd rather not stab you. Just give me your wallet and phone."
"Now that's a deal! What a reasonable fellow."
@@JB-xl2jc you just described the economy of the united states.
i was vassalized and the ki has strange focus. i can give them 45% of my rare ressources and they give me 75% bonus on basic advanced and research
Well I had a vassal that supplied me with most my rare resources around 100 in all three categories
It’s actually hilarious how much better the terms are when you’re a vassal vs when you’re the overlord 😂
@@CHURCHISAWESUM Gotta pay the cost to be the boss lol
Why is the main draw of the expansion so broken?
I think the overlord should have some modifiers that help with negotiations. Modifiers such as relative power to their vassals and such (more so than the current one in-game), or modifiers for vassals like obedience or whatnot to help them negotiate with the overlord. The vassal shouldn't have that much freedom to negotiate with their overlord, or the overlord need to jump through that many hurdles to adjust what the vassals need to do. Cuz at the moment, I dont see the benefit of having a vassal, and I'd rather integrate them into my empire. Hopefully they do some rebalancing of this in the future, cuz the whole overlord thing is a really fun idea, especially for roleplaying empires and stuff.
ive just gotten the 3 vassels max and I had to give everything to the prospectorium. It was the last vassal I could get. overall they need to rebalance it since I am also unable to change anything from the change in terms. You should be able to get favors to force them to accept certain stuff
Fantastic content as always!
Abstaining from voting with the overlord initially is a bug actually. The workaround is that you can simply object and then support the resolution again. The calculations will kick in, and your vassals will actually vote with you if they have restricted voting or no diplomatic freedom. You can see they were forced given their desire to support is still lower than the support threshold in the UI.
Given this behavior, vassals' diplomatic weight not getting added to your own proposals is also a bug.
Moreover, the UI of vote indication to kick from federation is also not updated, your subject will vote with you when you try to perform the action but the UI still says they will vote no when they have no freedom to vote. So many bugs as always at launch nowadays.
Montu have you tried playing as megacorp empire with imperial fiefdom? Its fucking insane, overlord have 3 planets with 150 pops total - you'll get 500-600energy from very START of the game!! You have also option to build outpost in other vassal planets, go for tech rush, change consumer policy for 0.5energy and unity. Unlimited crédits, unity and tech! xD
Wow
Do you get any sort of bonus for eventually obtaining freedom from your overlord, or is it meant to be just a challenge.
@@datwhiteboi6256 Your overlord will fall apart on their own at 2250, but why would you want to? You have a super advanced AI empire guarding you, giving you 600 energy/month from trade and subsidizing +45% of every resource. With a deal like that you'll be desperately trying to find another host to suck dry the second 2250 hits.
@@iblobtouch i understand that but I was curious if it was like how on the shoulder of giants where you get a research buff.
I'm a console player so I can't play the DLC yet.
Sounds like they tested this stuff pretty rigorous for bugs and balance lol
Now all yor subsidies are belong to me
It's been a year since you made this video, and as someone new to Stellaris... THANK YOU. Man, I needed this explained.
I was very excited for the DLC until it comes to a situation: I had to go to war with 2 empire in around 2250, and managed to win them, and they became my vassals, but it's all meaningless because they can say no to whatever term I proposed. It feels like Paradox doesn't know what vassals are, and they made it to be some sort of "diplomatic". I thought it was cool to have vassals, and now I think destroy them all to get more territory is much easier
long live our great Hegemon, Tiberius Montuwu, long live the Montuwu dynasty!
To refuse a new contract, a vassal must spend 25 more influence than it cost you to propose it. Also, refusing the new terms doesn't reset the timer, meaning you can re-propose the same terms right after the proposal. What does this mean? Your vassals compliance doesn't matter as long as you have more influence than they do, since you can force through any changes you want to the vassal contract.
why do you actualy need to "negotiate" with your subjects? you own them. or it should give a wargoal to force them to accept
They'll probably fix it for their broken refusal to accept anything. The idea is that you'd just try to annex them if you don't want to directly own them, as a vassal in the Feudal context served their liege in exchange for some benefits. Besides, those you conquer liking you instantly over a forced contract is a bit silly.
I think it should be inversed, the subject should negotiate with the overlord; not the overlord negotiating with the vassal
@@scyobiempire4450 It's more that the player negotiates with the AI. You can use the same negotiation screen, whether you are the vassal or overlord.
Personaly I wanted to do a "Unify the galaxy" run and get every empire to be a specialised subject, for prospectorium I HAD to use the "yesmen" command do do that, it was still fun though.
I had an experience about 3 months ago in a coop run as a mil-rush with virtually no tech gain while my buddy ran a technocracy. 2300 this man had megas up while I was still running the equivalent of space AKs and pickup trucks while smashing as many of my ships against an enemy as possible, effectively 1940's Russia-ing the galaxy. I became his vassal and I was, within 20 years, brought up to his level of tech as well as repeatables. If the tweaks are this good, then I'll probably be able to become the galaxy's problem even faster.
Tech rush can be insane. My record in the previous patch was hitting repeatables before 2255, and having a megastructure before 2280. By 2300 Fallen Empires were inferior in tech.
First playthrough in current patch, no glitches, I had a juggernaut before the ai was using cruisers, and 4 titan/arty bb fleets by 2300. Working on my second megastructure and it's 2315. Current repeatables are 12 in all engineering and 25 in all physics, with 35? Influence in social, and 5 all others.
I didn't even have a great deal of luck.
@@leakingamps2050 care to share the important years to achieve that
I guess the solution to the subsidy exploit is to just have it pull the effective production from all available job's whether you can fill them or not.
As otherwise disabling buildings/ jobs is always going to be exploitable.
I guess the other option is ai gets the -500 modifier added to subsidising the vassal same as the one they get when being tithed but that kinda breaks the system somewhat. Also would likely stop the overlord from from making prospectoriums due to the science subsidy along with bulwarks.
There is a possibility that the -500 modifier on the resource tithes is only when players try to vassalise ai, similir to why players vassal lost dificulty bonuse's as players would get pretty insane amounts of resources from ai tithes with their massive production and stability bonuses.
the relative power in a vassal negotiation can go to 500 but takes a huge difference I was able to turn a scholarium into a propectorium by having around 1500 fleet cap, diplomacy tradition, making them love me, and giving them pretty much everything in contract
It is WAY too difficult, IMO unfairly so, to get a Prospectorium. Tbh my playstyle doesn't really need it as I have an economy-focused play, but I was just wanting to get the achievement done, and I just could NOT get any AI to agree to it, even vassals I made out of my own sectors just would NOT do it.
Yah, it's ridiculously difficult; it's bad enough having to use potentially buckets of influence, but you can't even use favours for acceptance. Definitely see changes coming to this.
@@kompav5621 It's extremely frustrating and I hope they change it soon, cuz sheesh is it frustrating. Like it's way too stacked against you to get one, when the whole point is to *become an Overlord* yet the vassals seem to get the most benefits.
So glad that you added that beginning!
nice use of the Jeff meme on the thumbnail, not sure why you gave him hair though.
Good one
A few things to note:
1. You can easily get a Prospectorium if you vassalize them through war. They'll be weaker and have at leat a 750 malus to the negotiation.
2. A lot of the acceptance is being steered over the number of changes. If you change a lot of things in the contract, even to the benefit of the subject, they will dislike it. This means it is generally a good idea to repeatedly change the contract to get closer to what you finally want to get, including transforming them into a specalization like a prospectorium.
I honestly love the DLC/update. I love when galactic politics is not based on hard power but instead based on soft power. I love being able to conquer the galaxy without just having to kill everything that moves.
One way that I was able to get the vassal to agree to any of the terms I put out off the bat was when I would win terrirory through claims and war then turn the new frontier sector into a vassal. I could turn them into a Prospectorium and any others and they were happy to do it.
had a start where I was pinned into a tiny cluster between two much larger empires. worked a treat to absorb one of them quite early. I was rather surprised they took the offer of miniscule resources for permitted integration. Sheer audacity paid off big.
It's easier to get a loyal subject to agree to things like prospectorium than it is to get someone to take it as part of the initial offer. So, the way to go is to subjugate then specialize.
You used my comment from the last video for the intro of this one. I love it. :D
I vassalized (with the restricted voting option) an empire that had defensive pacts with other empires. When I went on to vassalize those other empires (that had defensive pacts with the first empire I vassalized) it showed my vasal as being on their side as well as my own empire (as my vassal's overlord). When I clicked to start the war, nothing happened.
LMAO was not expecting that thumbnail image. Love it.
I could be mistaken, but it looks like the best way to get a procpectorium is to start with a tributary instead of a vassal.
I got a prospectorium and scholarium fairly easily. I got them up to 100 loyalty and relationships as subjects, then moved them to the specialists without large tithes, then each negotiation I increased the contribution as much as I could. Tbf though with my prospectorium I only really wanted the base resources from them to feed my ring world and ecumenopolis.
This update is pretty annoying with this whole 'diplomacy' thing.
As a xenophobic, authoritarian militarist, it doesn't really make much sense that I can't force my vassals to do things they don't want to do. They start without giving me resources, or doing anything for me at all, and then I have to befriend them to do what I say? It doesn't make sense at all for my government type/species. Not to mention, with how long it takes to earn me resources, and how I have to literally convince them to do anything for me, annexing is just easier.
Speaking of annexing, I just LOVE how planets gain peace treaties after rebelling... It makes no sense at all, again, as a xenophobic, authoritarian militarist, to just allow a planet to leave my empire and take some systems because they were upset at me. Oh, you have 30k fleet power in the system and 2k worth of xenomorphs on the planet? Nah. They get their peace and are completely safe until the truce wears off... Like, what? There's not even an army uprising, just an independence without any conflict. Sure. It's not particularly difficult to prevent them with a couple strongholds, but sometimes you're busy doing something else, they get freedom, and you're just stuck for years until you can retake your lost land.
Declare Total War. No need for all the bs!
yeah I thought the vassals must always agree with whatever term the overlords propose, because you have to win a war to subjugate them, but this turns out to be another diplomatic screen
I was able to get a Prospectorium in this way - set vassal in worst for him terms but with positive monthly loyality (no vassal wars, all overlord wars, no sensors, all holdings etc.), next when loyality reach 100 switch to Prospectorium with best terms for vassal (no holdings, all vassal wars, no overlord wars etc.). Next when loyality reach 100 again you can change terms for little better for you. Influence costly but it works.
Bruh I love you content!!! might consider NAP next game :D
Did you know the ai has to spend the same influence to decline a change that it cost to propose it and if they dont have it they are forced to accept the change i was able to turn a normal vassal into a prospectorium with max changes in my favor by proposing a 700 influence change and the ai didnt have it so they were force to accept it
theres even no cooldown on declines so you can just keep proposing the change and as long as you have more influence in the end itll go through
Is there a way to force an AI empire to became a prospectorium if the player empire conquers it through a subjugation war? Or better yet is there ANY WAY AT ALL to get a prospectorium? If not I just don’t get the point of adding this type of vassal into the game in the first place.
You can turn them into prospectoriums. You go to contacts, at the bottom you pick the agreements tab. Then you have to click terms negotiation. Then your vassal can not be a protectorate. Then in the negotiate terms screen, the right of the window you will see where it says vassal. If you click on it, it opens a drop down and you can choose what kind of vassal they are.
@@NUCLEARxREDACTED But the negative modifier about changing the deal is so high that you can't do this anyways.
@@based5596 precisely
console command debug_yesmen lol. thats the only option
@@sanssherif8452 jokes on me, I happen to only play in Ironman 😅
A lot of this vassal contract system is actually in the base game/free patch, the DLC only adds a few addional options and more vassal types.
Montu, I really wish there were timestamps so that rewatching I can skip all the stuff I already know. Would you mind adding them if the video is still relevant?
If I'm not mistaken, subjects abstaining from a vote the overlord supports actually seems to be a bug that happens when the overlord is the one who first proposed the law in the galactic community. In my experience, if you change your vote to abstaining or voting against it and then change it back, your subjects will all start following your vote no matter what it is.
You can also BUY Stellaris Overlord here and support this channel: www.humblebundle.com/store/stellaris-overlord?partner=montuplays&charity=25618
hi montu, can you give a word to dev about giving trade route an animation?
maybe from our capital to other nearest hub will had hundreds of smoll ship goes in and out from capital to another hub.
and it will have more grand visual if we are corpo nation, it will enhance the game for me as trade nation.
or maybe we got refugee animation (thousand of small ship that are damaged) if our planet received refugee pops.
ofcourse we can turn it off or it only appeared if we zoomed properly
I was so excited for this DLC, I like to roleplay a pirate empire that take vassals by force with Feudal and Barbaric Despoiler and thought that this would add to the fun. But nowhere in the patch notes where I looked did they say that they made the subjugation casus belli impossible to get.
You don't ask them if they want to be subjugated to get the casus belli anymore. Instead you can ask them to be your vassal if you are superior in 1 category diplomatically and force vassalization if you are superior in 1 category and inferior in none. The distinction there is small but meaningful. If you are better than them in tech but they are superior to you in fleet power you cannot vassalize them.
The subjugation CB got rolled into an available war goal if you're superior to anyone instead of having to demand it first - It was in the patch notes.
I did get a Prospectorium but I took several worlds from a hive mind and made a vassal of my on species
I've been trying to figure this out thanks for the video.
Also is this footage from the stream the other day?
The save is from the stream, its all fresh footage
in a recent playthrough i forcefully subjugated an empire that had a subsidary, they both had way weaker economy than me. after they surrendered, my income seriously increased from that subsidary, i was confused how an empire that supposedly weaker economy can give me 150 minerals and 100 energy credits so i came to this video and apparently the contribution tab is relative to how much YOU earn and not how much the subject earns if they give you subsides. no wonder they were disloyal they were selling their entire economy to me until i changed the terms
That research pay at the end! Wow, they are giving you subsidies out the wazoo!
14:02 Montu hive mind
Stellaris is really growing nicely.
Have you thought about doing an updated guide on planet management with this new dlc i have been having like 15 planets plus witch is too much to manage. I know there is a sector system but it doenst really explain intself well.
I've managed to do prospectorium by offering 45% of my science, 0 holdings and all the maxed "freedom" options.
Some one had a miss type in the code. It must have meant to have been 50..
Love your intros, very creative :) ... I had a bunch of border empires submit to me as vassals by their own request. Because I had been waring against them is there any value in keeping my spies there? Seems like its a no?
I had this problem with my vassals where they had a defensive pact with another empire I wanted to vassalize next and I would be unable to declare war on them because of my other vassal. I don't think restricting their diplomacy would purge their diplomacy deals and I forgot to check if forcing them to join my aggressive wars would nullify their defensive pact and i had to release them and use the console to cancel their treaties and revassalize them to keep collecting more vassals. Super janky.
Lol i commented about this being possible on your Channel just yesterday
I actually had an ai ask to become a prospectorium under me out of the blue, man was on the other side of the galaxy.
Montu can u do in the future a Video about the Subterranean Origin?
Ah yes, Art of the Deal vol. 2. Finally.
the overlord garrison building is so op for monthly loyalty imo
17:29 we do need them to be happy after all but forgot to cut the 2nt take so it then is follow wwith we do want them to be happy after all
Nice introduction.
Me with a bunch or Ring World cataclysm processing.
Alloys for everyone!!!
Do they even playtest before releasing updates, or just waiting for you and ASpec to do it for them!?
You want to do a video on the new stories? Cause the Dimensional Horror story just turned my homeworld into a black hole...
from my experience, the new overlord mechanic is not enjoyable. i'd much rather integrate them as soon as possible. you have to do so much negotiation to build just a few holdings and get some resources from them. i'd rather just integrate them, build and profit as much as I want.
additionally cheesing your overlord for free resources should have some consequences.
ultimately overlord has way to much of a focus on negotiations, with the vassal having way more bargaining power than they should have
imma buy it when some months our a year passes it will be way cheaper and they will fix most of these stuff
The only vassal that is worth having is a scholarium, because you don't need to subside them in any way, and it's main advantage is in the building you can build in your vassal capital, as it gives a 5% research speed for each science vessel for a total of 15% (don't need to have a scientist on it) on orbit, which means having tons of scholarium vassals can boost your research speed to insane levels. Aside from that, I use vassals as a diplomatic buffer on wars: "Oh, you can't attack my territory because my vassals are in the way, but I can attack yours by moving through my vassal", which makes offensive wars that much easier.
I managed to get a prospectorium vassal with a fairly standard contract. The thing is they said they would refuse but I sent it anyway and they accepted, then I tried it on my over vassal and they refused?
Damn, made me bite my finger when you said you couldn't get a prospectorium, meanwhile i get 2 by them offering to be my vassels. (as a prospectorium at that.)
Ma guy I am crisis 5 with 4.000k fleets it’s purging time 🤩
In my current game, I got 3 Prospectorium vassals, those empires that I had created not conquered!
I noticed that AI wont pick a fight with my vassals if they are pissed with me, so I placed those vassals to block any hyperspace line that is going into my empire....yes they are my meat shield!
Now I can attack other empires within the safety of my home.....Crisis is anther case xD
Omg downgrading my fleets as a scholarium with cost modifier and printing alloys
10/10 thumbnail.
It is pretty ridiculous how hard it is to get a prospectorium or even a scholarium imo, I hope they adjust the numbers a bit so I can actually gain resources from some of my subjects.
How do I crush the loyalty of a small empire already a subject of another overlord in order to steal it? That -750 makes it impossible to steal even if I am a lot stronger than her current overlord...
This is hilarious! xD
Imagine telling someone last year that they would want to become a vassal in this game outside of the scion origin :/
I have the. Overlord DLC but I don't see the other options for types of subjects
I have altered the deal, pray i don't alter it any further.
I noticed that it's pretty much impossible to get a prospectorium as well, it's almost like they think they're the ones in power here
I totally have vassals giving me resources in three or more categories.
I’m guessing this would make megacorp very stronk
How do you land armies in other empires? It won't let me survey
Ah, yes, the negotiator.
Hey montu, how do I salvage havin 16 planets with 20% habitability in 2260?
I actually had an AI empire ask me to become a prospectorium. the resource bonus is an unreal benefit
Hey Montu, have you not done an Origin Tier List yet?
Nope not yet! Still havent got a full handle on them all yet!
Lol that vassal thing being better than being an overlord reminds me of how china is still saying it's a "Developing Country" despite being a global production powerhouse. Gonna have to try that out 😂
Lol, that last trick is basically being an investment bank.
I know I've made trillions over the course of the past decade, but it's been a bad quarter and if I don't get massive government bailouts the world will explode.
Why isn't there a way to set starting terms after taking them from a war?
There is. You can set that in your policies!
Yes, balanced, oppressive, and benevolent, such choice.
Get a tributary to turn into a prospectorium.
so it sounds like there are a few bugs to iron out.
I found a very op trick, step one become mega Corp, step two, build merc enclave, step three fund the mercs till their fleet is hella big, step four rent the fleet, step 5 profit. So by step five you're fleet power will be so strong that the whole galaxy will ask for subjection as they will belive they aren't strong enough to survive on their own. How long will it take to do this? Idk I did it by accident. But I pretty much had subjugated the whole galaxy within a hundred years. Granted I did this on a tiny galaxy because I wanted a quick game.
That's hilarious
Lol 20:50 pulling insurance scams on the overlord.