B-17 Bomber Crew Tail Station, Crew Survivability and External Walk Around
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- čas přidán 12. 09. 2024
- Enclosed is the part 1 WWII B-17 Bomber Tail Gun Station. Topics include: crew member survivability and conduct a detailed crew station external walk around.
Library of B-17 Gunstations and Gunsights:
B-17 Tail Gunner Survivability (part 1): • B-17 Bomber Crew Tail ...
B-17 Tail Gunner Combat Effectiveness (part 2): • B-17 Crew Tour of Duty...
B-17 Ball Turret (part 1) Crew Survivability: • B-17 Bomber Ball Turre...
B-17 Ball Turret (part 2) External Features: • B-17 Bomber Ball Turre...
B-17 Ball Turret (Part 3) Combat Effectiveness: • B-17 Ball Turret, Comb...
B-17 vs. B-29 Gunsights: • WWII B-17 vs. B-29 Bom...
B-17 Gunsights for Ranging: • B-17 Bomber, Using Rin...
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B-17 Browning .50 Cal Machine Guns: • B-17 Bomber's Browning...
Damn good analysis!
Fortress facts: All non- pilot crew would assemble amidships for takeoff and landing to make it the center of gravity. Yes, you could access the tail gun position in flight, not necessarily easy, but doable, not only the tail wheel but camera equipment was mounted back there to take strike photos. The "G" had what I think was called the "Cheyenne" turret- like tail mount which afforded a greater field of fire than the earlier models which were simply a pair of guns mounted on a swivel. My father was a tail gunner, he flew this and earlier models, he said the "G" was much better thanks to the waist gun plexiglass windows that cut down on the wind that would come howling down the fuselage and exit out through his position, he stated the electric suits never could keep up with the chill factor, would develop "hot spot" shorts and it was always bitterly cold back there. He also said it was the loneliest station being so remote from the rest of the crew, even the ball turret gunner had company. Additionally, it was his job to give an element position and strike report- for obvious reasons- so he was one busy guy back there. And finally, after a mission one day the crew was over the channel near home, gathered amidships and bs'ing- it was considered "safe skies"- when a lone wolf ME or FW jumped them, he said all hell broke loose with everybody scrambling to get back to their gun station, he said he managed to give the guy a good "stitching" when he made another pass, and then flew off. Smart guy, that German pilot, looking for an easy kill while gunners are relaxing smoking a "Luckie".
Can you tell us if the Cheyenne tails were as well armored as the earlier Stinger tails. Doesn't look like there was enough room for the armor plate.
Great story! Love it when people share their family history.
Good story. Enjoyed it very much.
Thank you! Fantastic story!
the radio room would get crowded at times,,,like ditching etc,,my dad had a short,,fire in the heated suit,,hard to put out at high altitude,,a camera man with a large floor mount flew a mission that day,,the camera was in the radio compt so over the target my father went back with the waist gunners that had a few pieces of armor plate on the floor etc,,he was flak hit in the leg there,,along with half the crew,,,a shell ,,88 or 105 came thru the floor ,,didnt explode destroying the plane and out the top,,it took off the camera mans arm,,,,teo of the crew tried to help him,,no effect,,offered to bail him out,,he refused,,,morphined him a lot as he died,,,the plane was the only one in the group hit as bad as it was,,the 22 year old pilot got it back with heroic flying,,,my father was in the hospital 20 days,,,MISSION 13,,,,,
The next mission the group flew ,,every airplane the squadron put up was shot down,,,6 for 6,,60 aircrew gone in one day,,,news like a tidal wave for those left,,,the aforce tried to push in replacement crews and planes as soon as possible,,,not wanting empty beds and seats longer then ever,
My Father Wes was a tail and ball gunner in the 398th Bomb Group in England. His plane had the later electronic aiming redicles. He told me you waited till the fighters wing tips were framed in, then you pushed the thumb triggers. He said he did not kill anyone just shot down enemy planes and bombed buildings. Long Live "Hell from Heaven" dad. He passed 2 years ago at 96 still shooting ducks with me.
What do you mean didn't kill anyone? Surely when he shot down enemy planes , the German pilots were killed. I think you are very naïve to think that your father didn't kill anyone.
@@pvtjohntowle4081 You can pretty easily cause fatal damage to a plane without even touching the pilot and leave it in a state where they can bail out. Rounds in the engine block, fuel tanks, avionics, etc. Even starting a fire isn't necessarily fatal to the pilot. Not to mention interceptors incorporating bulletproof glass in the front of the cockpit.
Then again, if he ripped any wings there's a good chance they didn't make it.
Both my grand dads were B17G tailgunners. Both were shot down, survived unwounded and completed their tours. The odds of that are incredible. Then my own mom and dad served USAF in Vietnam and survived while I and my siblings served US Army in OIF, OEF and the GWOT and survived. Now one of my sons is an Army cadet.
None of us would be here though if not for the armor in those tailgunner stations. According to both my grand-dads the BF109s and FW190s took great delight in hosing down the tail section. Many of their friends didnt make it.
I THOUGHT I knew about the B-17. This makes me know about what I DIDN'T know.THANK YOU
These are excellent videos, and they are filled with a lot more information than I have been able to find in other sources. Good job keep them coming.
You said it all pal .
This gentleman's videos are excellent and clearly exhaustively researched. While being detailed oriented, the videos do not seem to add extraneous material and the breadth of the research and subject material covered is excellent. Very well done and thank you!
So nice of you
Never knew until now that there were red and white indicator taillights. I read one time that many tail gunners were in effect "shot in the back" not by planes they were engaging but from head-on attacks and enemy fire ripping through the fuselage to the tail station.
Great content! I'm looking forward to your B-29 series. Yet to be covered by any youtuber so far. The B-29 had an amazingly sophisticated "fly by wire" gunlaying system that went way beyond "remote control" of the turrets, where the gunner tracked the target, data was sent to a central computer by Selsyn synchros, the computer applied about 6 adjustments for speed, parallax error, density alt, etc., and the COMPUTER actually aimed the guns via Selsyns in the turrets, where IT decided they needed to point. The gunner was just telling the computer where the target was and the computer did the aiming, and the gun barrels were never parallel to the sight axis. This was little different from the first Fly By Wire systems used for flight controls in the 50s.
Oh man, you absolutely crushed it. What a treasure of information. I've been a WW2 aviation enthusiast for 30 years, and was especially fond of B-17f and the absolute battle over Europe. And for some reason I've always been fascinated with the experience of being a tail gunner.
You've educated me more in a few minutes than a couple decades worth of passive reading.
Thank you and keep the vids coming.
Sgt George Morrison served with the 303rd BG 358th Sq as a tail gunner with the Willam Dashields crew. He also was my high school teacher who I became lifelong friends with. He told me many stories about his time flying combat missions over Europe. I remember one about how the windows in the tail would frost up so bad that by the time they landed he could only see out through spot about the size of a quarter. After trying dam near everything to cure the frosty issue they lucked up and discovered bug spray worked like a charm at defrosting. Who know huh? George passed back in 97 not a day goes by that I don't think of him and those he lost over there.
I am a WW ll historian and have been so since 1962. I learned a lot from your video! Thanks for posting. When I was 7 years old in 1957, my parents took me to Memphis, Tennessee for a weekend trip. I had built models of the B-17 and read books about that airplane and was thrilled when I got to see the Memphis Belle on display one night bathed in lights. It was on a cement pad surrounded by a mere chain link fence and deteriorating out in the weather.
Now on permanent display and protected at the USAF Museum at WPAFB, Dayton.
The tailgunner position was armored against 30 caliber machine gun fire
Unfortunately the luftwaffe was using 20 mm cannons
Well a little note should be made that the High explosive shells would have not penetrated the armor. But they also had a AP-T and API shells wich would have. But from a good range, the armored panel MIGHT be able to resist a shot that comes from an odd angle
The armor would also help protect against flak-shrapnel.
So now I now the purpose of the gun muzzles after many years of wondering, thanks and very well detailed and informative series!!
The defensive guns on the B17 were not M2 .50 cals, they were AN/M2 .50 cals, the difference is they weighed about 20 lbs less and had a firing rate of 750 to 800 rounds per minute as compared to the slower M2 firing rate of 550 to 600 rounds per minute.
The AN/M2 guns on the bombers were the same .50 cals that were in the wings of fighter's, pretty much everything in US aviation used them instead of the Infantry M2 .50 cal.
AN stood for Army/Navy because they were supposed to be inter service compatible, meaning there would be no difference between the one's used in the two branches.
Thanks for sharing this info.
In May June ? 1970 the Quad Fifty Battery I served in ran short of replacement barrels for the M2. We were furnished with the lighter airplane AN/M2 barrel. Then a huge battle erupted , Plei Djerang (?) NVA anti aircraft fire was preventing air relief of a base and so the stockpile of .50 cal barrels we had was airlifted to support the battle.
I am not sure if they were to fit the machine guns on vehicles of the relief columns or to be air dropped to the besieged base.
Some of the crates of barrels bore stencils of WWll production dates.
@@lynnwood7205
Yep, that was one of the differences, the barrels were lighter, everything about aircraft is all about weight, reducing it actually.
What's amazing is when the AN/M2's were mounted in fighter's they had -30 to -50°f temperature air blasting straight down those barrels at 300 to 400 MPH and they'd still burn up if a fighter pilot held the trigger for more than something like 6 seconds at a time, that's what you call hot.
Being on a quad .50 what are the chances you were air defense and trained at Ft Bliss TX?
I was a Vulcan gunner that was trained there in 1983.
@@dukecraig2402 Alas, I was a truck mechanic with E/41st so did not get to enjoy the scenic wonder of Ft. Sill.
@@lynnwood7205
Ft Bliss, that's where all the air defense training was at, guns, missile's etc etc.
Ft Sill was artillery.
I love this channel! So much new information about the B-17 that I never read in the books before. Wow!
I love these short and detailed descriptions of specific aspects of WW2 planes. Please keep it coming!
My father Airforce WW II, he repaired, replaced B 17 wings. Enjoy your channel 😀. History holds the keys, History must be remembered . History is repeating once again. Thank you
The courage of the young men that went aloft aboard these bombers is truly awe inspiring!
They faced multiple dangers, but the aimed fire from 20mm High Explosive Cannon Rounds posed a very specific threat, as enemy fighters would aim to kill the bombers Gun Crews as a matter of course!
Considering the directions that lethal enemy fire could come, and which were completely without armour, it looks to be a pretty vulnerable location.
This channel is truly outstanding in the excellence of its production, interesting, informative and concise, its a real gem!
A station for those Men that rode a backseat of station wagons as kids & found it fun. No way im having my back turned to where im going. Ballsy & Brave ,for every single Airman that went to War.
Here's another tail gunner story: I met a former tail gunner from the 388th Bomb Group reunion meeting one time. He told the tail about how his B-17 was badly hit severing off the end of the plane while he was at his station in the back. That severed section just pin-wheeled all the way down to the ground, and he survived the trip. The 388th has an excellent magazine & a fantastic web database. My brother developed the database; he's out of country right now but I'll ask him about it when he gets back.
Great informative piece!
Thanks for posting these informative videos. Keep them coming
My oldest was a B17F tail gunner in the 8th Air Force. He had many stories to tell.
Another great post. Your research and analysis are amazing.
Watching all those lights go from white to red to white to red to white to red on the bombing missions at night must have been an amazing thing.
Interesting video. My uncle was a ball turret gunner in WWII. Killed two weeks before the war ended and the only crewman that didn't survive the flak hit. That's some bad luck right there.
_ thanks to the sacrifices of that "Golden Generation" this current group of g0p politicians are getting a chance to try and install a fascist style of gov't. In our USA - may their treacherous plans be destroyed not just stalled and the ijjits leading this treasonous action(s) be put in front of a firing squad facing 50 caliber machine guns so their traitorous asses can be shredded to smithereens - long live our USA ❗‼❗
These are great! While short, they are very informative. Looking past your excellent commentary, I start to get an idea how cramped and uncomfortable these stations were to be stuffed into for hours at a time. Just flying missions in them required a lot of guts.
Perfect videos thank you sir
Always wondered, never knew, about the muzzle deflectors.
Just discovered your channel and I wanted to thank you for providing such detailed and well-researched information about this topic. I've always been fascinated by WWII bombers and your videos really manage to scratch that itch!
Thanks for the kind words!
These are amazing videos. I work in the games industry and was looking for detailed reference material to know how and why things were made the way they were. These are amazing! Thank you so much!
I've always been interested in the cramped quarters of the tail gunner...seems like the ball gunner gets most of the attention, but this video really evened up the "glamor" of a rarely heard of position!
In the WW2 RAF "Tail-end Charlie" usually had the highest casualties, but then again Lancasters, Wellingtons etc just didn't have ball turrets to begin with. Lone bombers caught out would just hug the waves and trees, and at least one Luftwaffe fighter crashed trying to follow, without the gunners even firing
Well done lad. Informative, straight to the point--the way a youtube video should be made.
Fine work.
This is a great channel to find. The video is almost too short, had to keep pausing to digest to visual info. You are a fast thinker and a fast talker!
Awesome, comprehensive, and concise....fantastic..
My great uncle was a tail gunner. Disappeared somewhere over Germany.
I really enjoy the way you structure these videos man. Quality content
I always wondered what those rear lights were for. Me and my a few years back went to dayton, oh for the reveal of the newly restored Memphis Belle. One of Restoration guys was walking around answering questions and I went to ask him what those 2 lights where for, he had no idea. I was like what. You restored this plane dude. Anyways, good thing I came across this video because now I know and tomorrow we head to dayton again for more fun at the museum.
My wife's uncle, SSG Thomas Glynn, was a tail gunner in a B17...did 25 missions and died young from all the stress and "pep pills" that wrecked his heart.
Best WW2 bomber channel on CZcams , thanks
Thanks!
Excellent, detailed work. Suggestion: A video that explains deflection shooting.
I am quite knowledgeable about WW II and I still learned a lot here. Thanks!
My dad’s dad was a B-17 tail gunner stationed in North Africa. 8th Air Force. Did bombing runs over Germany but was never injured or shot down so I guess he was pretty lucky. Apparently he felt safer in the sky than back at base because of the V1 buzz bombs. I wonder if he ever encountered German jet aircraft on his missions.
my father was a tail gunner in a b-17 in wwII
My Great Uncle,Mellott,was a tail gunner.He was shot-down over Germany and survived with another crew member for 2 weeks in cornfields until being captured and becoming a POW.
Great videos! Would love to combine your work with stories of the men in these bombers to bring home the humanity and the technology into one story.
Interesting video.
Especially the armor part.
Designed to protect against 303 rifle ammunition.😔
No German aircraft used rounds that small by the time the b17 entered Europe theater.
The last fighters using 7.92 (equivalent of 303) were the 109F series. The G models were using mg131 wich fired basicly a 0.50cal rounds. The cannons... Well they were 20mm and up... So basicly. The added weight of the protection was more a physiological protection then actually able to help the crewmen survive.
In the RAF Lancasters bombers, the guy at the back was called the "Tail End Charlie!"
as always, great job
I like all the illustrations that are the originals. I particularly liked the sheet metal thickness diagram of the total body surface of a B-17 in one of your other videos and also in this video. It should be in a picture Frame and displayed in a VA hospital.
That's some solid info! I love this plane.
This channel is amazing, I make scale plastic model kits and your videos have given me a lot of inspiration!
I lived in Cheyenne for years right outside F.E. Warren AFB.
It’s not often to hear it mentioned, I think I know the area of the base that conversion was done at, too.
Really neat.
Very interesting. I like the stats. as well as the construction of the aircraft and the Flodeflector.
So much interesting information I never knew, thanks!
Very informative. Thanks!
Wait.... that poor bastard had to be kneeling for like 8 hours straight?!
How the crap were these guys not crippled when they tried to leave?
Always wondered what was the purpose of the flow deflectors. Now I know.
A new US Army Private could go to aerial gunnery school and if they passed it, got a promotion to Staff Sergeant and a station on a bomber.
A very good deal, as many of them saw it!
Great work here sir.
Nice work. Appreciated.
Very informative video. Thanks.
I really enjoy your channel, and want to thank you for such great vids
I had read somewhere that due to reaching around the armor plate many tail gunners had their hands shot off - always wondered if true never saw anything more on it.
Incredibly informative. Kudos 👍
Good presentation
Even though he has an escape hatch, the main problem is being pinned to the back of the aircraft during the drop if they get shot down. But if they can make the aircraft stable, yeah he has a quick escape.
Nice video, other than misspelling "Cheyenne" in the graphic. Kudos!
There is a misspelling of Cheyenne in the video. I see you caught that mistake in the transcript. Since I grew up in Rawlins Wyoming, the misspelling was glaring, but probably missed by most viewers. Otherwise, a very good video. Just found your channel.
Another great vid, Mason. Keep it up.
Excellent.
Thanks for posting.
Great stuff!
Wonderful information, but one thing he didn't touch on is the fact that the Luftwaffe used larger ammunition than 30 cal ammunition (which the armor was designed to protect against). A 20mm would go right through that armor. Must have taken balls to be a bomber crewman during WWII.
The Luftwaffe 20mm was an explosive contact round made to tear up aircraft skin, it would not penetrate that armor I think. There is an excellent video on the German 20mm ammo on this page.
Always thought a high powered spotlight mounted on the tail guns could have been helpful in blinding and throwing off attackers aim.
Arc light electrodes when stared at would damage eyesight or at very least alter vision with the resulting spots in the field of vision
Or using flame throwers, like the Germans did with some models ;)
Thanks for the video, some excellent information 👍
I wonder if staggering the fire from left to right barrel would have reduced the need for the blast baffles on the end.
Great research. Thank you.
Terrific video. You have a new sub!
Sorry, but your spelling is off. Cheyenne, Wyoming.
Thanks for the catch, darn spell checker missed that also.
@@WWIIUSBombers Your welcome!
(My favorite line when it comes to "spell checkers" is: Auto Incorrect makes me type things I didn't Nintendo!
@@WWIIUSBombers On a roadside sign:
"The inventor of Auto-Correct has died.
His Funnel will be held tomato."
Really good! Just found your stuff!
Awesome job! Thanks a lot!
Actually, they use the M3 Aircraft version of the M2... it has a much higher cyclic rate than the standard M2
1:46 is interesting..a note about the low number of pilots wounded. These stats are for returning crews. I daresay a lot of times when the pilot and copilot were hit that the aircraft never returned so these stats are omitted from the table.
Me too, I find those low casualty rates among pilots and copilots, and would put that to survivor bias too. It would be good to check if there are statistics about how often each area on a B-17 is hit among the surviving bombers ; glaringly low hit rates around the cockpit area would suggest a hit there would be more likely to destroy the bomber and leave little to no evidence.
Nice !
My grandfather wanted to be a tailgunner but didn't have the eyesight the Army wanted. He became a B-17 mechanic instead and survived the war while all of the tailgunners in his class were killed. P.S. I wear glasses today lol
Very nice job. The Chayanne (Or Cheyenne?) tail has gotten my attention though? Can we get more details on that one? What kind of modifications were included in detail?
The plane it is with such thin of a fuselage in place it's a marvel of mechanism, a good video of the past!
Excellent video, I really enjoy your content. Give Dr Felton a run for his money!!!
Imagine the back pain being crouched like that throughout an attack
Like to see a similar series on the aircraft my father piloted - B4-D. Thanks.
Great video
Tail gunner had a good cabin full of armor, 5 mins later the skin on the cabin was credit card thin.
Very nice - thanks !
🙂😎👍
Great info...thank you.
thanks
Very cool.
How many gunners couldn't get the overlay, so they just used a grease pencil? 😎
Very interesting
🇺🇸 Can you just try to imagine kneeling for some 6-12 hours on a mission ?
Where was the tail gunner parachute kept at?
The "Cheyanne" tail configuration was named after Cheyanne, Wyoming, spelled with an '", not an "A". Otherwise, not a bad presentation at all, per usual.
That was interesting.