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Even not being a designer double lift figured out a classic design phrase “When a player tells you something is wrong with your game they’re almost always right, but if they tell you how to fix said problem they’re almost always wrong.”
I'm still surprised we haven't just given Grievous as an aura for tank/support items. Put Grievous Wounds as an aura on existing anti-heal items, where it does say a constant 10-20% reduction, and then the actual already existing grievous effects apply the full grievous.
An aura that heals you for a percentage of damage healed when an enemy heals in the area. They get healing, but so do you.
The aura gw is a good idea. Bramble is such poor way to apply gw to enemies.
Beat me to it.
This is too logical for riot to implement, however.
Imo Heimerdinger should be gutted, that will likely fix the problem.
Something like this? (it's from another game i just only adapted it to LoL Description, that i wont mention it's name cause LoL players hate that game):
Artic Freeze: Aplies Grievous Wounds to nearby enemy Champions by 50% (it wont stack with other passive with Grievous Wounds effect bought by the user), and reduces their Attack Speed by 30%.
@@guillermoyac I mean, tbh I was more so thinking on Contagion/Pestilence from Smite. It's just got a flat healing debuff aura on it. I figured make that aura a slight bit weaker (10-20% instead of 25%) And then give the full 40% grievous if you apply it actively via the already existing methods
I love that Doublelift gives some context and explains why it is that way and why it’s not necessarily Riot’s fault. That’s very wise and mature.
Oh good, its never fault of the company that maked the game...
@@Gabriel-no6wv Its an understanding that just because you can identify a problem doesn't mean its easy to find a solution that doesn't create new problems. 99.99% of all suggestions on the internet are worthless because they would come with unintended consequences that people just don't think about.
@@hamsterfromabove8905 And how do you think they got to that point? By the decisions they made rofl. Accountability is more mature than fence sitting. The players didn't make the desicion to make every champ and item give and deal tons of damage nor did they decide to implement healing in its current state.
I had this same thought. When playing against a Kayn, teammates always say "get grievous wound" (Thornmail) to stop his ult's heal. Grievous wound only last 3 seconds. While his ult's allows him to stay inside for 2.5 secs + the exit animation is 1.5 secs which is more than 3 secs. (2.5 + 1.5 = 4 secs). So therefore grievous wound is already done before he heals.
If he has a dot on him it he still get's grievous wounds during ult
Red kayn heals from all his abilities (on champions), and probably buys goredrinker so he'll have omnivamp and the active as well
Kayn’s ult has a 0.75s delay at recast and the exit animation seems no longer when he chooses to run the timer out
Thatll give him a maximum of 3.25s, which, yes, will still be longer than the duration of GW.
Had you actually spoken while you knew, you wouldnt have had to exaggerate to get your point across, sorry for that
Having thorn ail doesn't even help if he dont attack you.
@@Moptop2 Omni vamp is 33% effective on AoE abilities. Useless stat. If Sett does a 2000 True damage with his W and 10% Omni Vamp. He heals for a grand total of 66 HP. Same with Kayn Q/W both are AoE.
I remember when they removed spellvamp because there was too much healing.... and now you have shieldbow, eclipse, conqueror, sunderer, goredrinker, plus more, it's still too releventrelevant. Needs to be completely removed from items outside of maybe Bork, hydra, and bloodthirster. Leave the healing built into champ kits.
The most effective way to apply Gw is with burn and bleed. If you get hit by lindry and they have Gw from magic dmg, it will proc for the duration of the burn which I think is 4s plus 3 s after. So 7s in total.
The worst gw is the bramble. It can only be procced by autos. So if darius has not autoed you for 3 s he can q. Same with goredrinker or aatrox q.
The condition for thornmail to apply 60 % is only useful if you are against a healer. On people with lifesteal it's almost useless. If you immobilise someone for 1-1,5 s they can't lifesteal anyways and after the immobilising effect there is only 1,5 s where the 60% still applies.
Reduce burst healing, and make grievous easier to apply. Make bramble a small aoe aura of reduction where if they are within say 300 units of you, their healing is reduced. That way tanks reduce your healing by just standing beside you. No need to stun, no need to be hit. Or at least just make it abilities and attacks. Maybe the description is just bad and it really does work that way, but there are a lot of ways that you can improve the mechanic and make it feel better to buy. Riot has 200+ years of experience, which means there's Atleast 20 dudes that have been working on league for it's duration. Not one of them actually plays the game and watches replays? Not a single one of your balance personnel actually looks at the game instead of the stats? Make grievous wounds easier to apply, reduce burst healing, and then tune down grievous wounds if healing Champs like aatrox and Vlad are dogshit tier because of the changes. It's really not hard riot, you're just afraid of backlash and a dip in revenue for the short term that you take to figure your shit out. A playable grievous rework could be ready for 12.12 if you actually cared to fix what's wrong with the game.
It'd be interesting to see more healing effects function similar to death dance's damage gating. where it takes the sum healing and spreads it over a duration and the amount you can heal per second is capped to a percentage of the champs max hp, then grevious wounds could be used to cancel that healing stack when its applied, making it more about focusing the low health target and less about pre-emptively applying a debuff
grievous wounds should end up as a mechanic where it lasts until the champion being affected goes out of combat, but the 3s countdown only starts ticking when a heal is procced. This way, the heal reduction will affect both constant drain tanks like mundo and swain, as well as burst heals like vlad and aatrox
Tbf, champions like Vladimir/Swain/Mundo get out-healed by champions buying healing items. Their champion identity is healing but it is hardly relevant.
Heal cut is already disgustingly broken, they should not stay until out if combat.
@@nicholasc.1024 I've healed from 20% to 100% with just my ulti with all 3 champs. No its very relevant not sure what you are talking about lol
@@akaliotp6766 Heal cut is not broken. This video is about the irrelevance of it. The only scenario when GW is "broken" is when the champion healing has a dot with GW. Even in 1v1 scenarios you can get around bramble vest by not using autos, or excecutioner by not taking damage for 2 seconds and healing, or morello by doing the same
@@davidyang5187 I'm a masters Vladimir one trick, don't lie. You don't heal a relevant amount until 4+ items. By then, most games are already over.
Actually i was playing a red Kayn a couple of days ago and the enemy team had someone with a Thornmail. I completely gave up on using my autos during my time fighting the guy and used only abilities. The guy had zero chance of killing me. Such baffling design.
I think having different healing amounts for in and out of combat with champions would be interesting, like it's only 50% effective in combat (random number chosen, it would obviously have to be balanced). It wouldn't limit champs like Soraka who want to sustain through lane, or champs that want to heal up off of waves/camps, but would reduce some of the 'you must kill this champion 4 times' moments in League. This would also mean that champs who DO heal a crazy amount would need to buy AP in order to get crazy heals, which would be more costly for supports like Soraka and Yuumi as opposed to just grabbing the cheap support items and being a free full heal. Could even have abilities like Aatrox and Mundo ult remove the restriction, so that they still maintain their 'all-in sustain' idea if it's too big of a nerf to those champs specifically.
As for Grievous Wounds, the stack should just be permanent until the target leavels combat (a la Warmog's) so that once applied you don't have to worry about it with things like Zhonya's, just walking away for 3 seconds and not getting hit, etc. That way if the target wants to be healed, they have to actively make that decision and effectively CC themselves.
For clarity, I think both the target and the support would have to be out of combat for the full heal, not one or the other.
I actually liked when heals scaled with mostly AP. The only problem really was to balance the damage abilities of such supports. Now you just buy "heal items" and call it a day.
But I don't like grievous wounds being for the full combat duration, as explosive as league can be, that could change too much the current state of the game (from burst to a tag-like teamfight). But it could be balanced as something like it last 7-9 seconds, with less constraints (all damage for mortal reminder, aura for bramble vest, etc) but if you leave combat, it last 3 seconds or the time remining if it's less
1:42 Remixers, you know what to do
Could they make it so grievous stacks as its reaplied instead of instant 10 seconds of grievous or have the greivous increase linearly as they are attacked up to more than what current grevious is.
Kayn ult, for example, can wait up to 3 seconds, meaning he can wait out the grievous to fly heal from red kayn ult. Not to mention he can just not auto to not get grievous'ed by thornmail.
Literally had a game today where my whole team bought some form of grievous wounds against a fed af aatrox and it didn't seem to matter. He'd goredrinker for 10%->60% heal even with grievous applied and the go to full on the first kill he'd get with death dance reset mechanic. The only reason we won is because Vayne scaled to the point of 3 shotting him as long as he didn't one shot her first.
More often than not, the key is cc and burst before healing. Anti healing items scale so poorly in this game it’s not worth it. Also for aatrox he has healing amplifiers, goredrinker, his e, and the 5% from the green tree. If you only have a base 40% antiheal on him, you pretty much only took out his amplifiers.
@@holycrapdude123 except Aatrox can run tenacity unflinching to counteract cc and deaths Dance to annihilate burst
@@holycrapdude123 And as has been said for many years. CC is not an acceptable counter play mechanic. If CC is the only counter play (which now runes can make you damn near immune) then that champion/mechanic is over powered and should be nerfed.
GW are in game to counter life steal items, not to counter drain tanks
change my mind
I mean if you were able to scale to that point, against a fed af aatrox, then i highly doubt it was as overwhelming as you make it seem.
Healing as a game mechanic can feel unrewarding to play against, I get that, but what are they supposed to do? Just straight up remove all healing from the game and call it fair?
Suddendly Aatrox is barely a champion anymore and his entire champion identity is messed up. While we're at it, might as well remove true damage from vayne, Zileans ult, Blitzcranks/Treshs hook and so on and so on.
I like double lift acknowledges that he knows it's wrong but admits he doesn't have a solution. That's the sign of a wise person
Yea this is so true. It feels even more awful when you go have to get it for a yuumi/soraka lane then you never see them again and no one else buys it on your team and you say at minute 35 if you guys got grievous you would be winning those fights
this is so true man, i needa start just spamming my core before i start considering items like these
You apply grevious wounds through bramble on trynd as you trade, he loses the trade, e’s away, and instead of pressing Q straight away for a heal, he waits an extra 3 seconds to press Q
this
a single adaptive force grevious wounds item that is basically uncondtional
ADC's, assassins, and burst mages buying heal cut is more of a hinderance, they should focus on their power spike / survival items over utility. Supports, Tanks, Bruisers, and such should buy heal cut. Bramble sucks, but Thornmail is great if you are someone that can proc it's 60% cut consistently. Chemtech Putrifier is severely underrated and gives ADC's a healcut without them having to buy Exec. And if you're facing a healer in lane, take Ignite and use it early in an all-in to nearly negate the effects of panic pots and summoner heal.
But even right now League is in a state where everyone does a shit-ton of damage so healers HAVE to do a shit-ton of healing to counteract it, it's really silly and eventually the game will become a Korean MMO with hyperinflated numbers.
@@ronnical2489 we must live in two different worlds because I never see that item built
@@LeonBelmont121 In what elo do you play, maybe its because of that. I am currently D1 EUW.
@@ronnical2489 this item is broken, the condition is also really easy to fulfill, karma mantra e's and the whole team has 60% gw. raka ults and the whole team has 60% gw
@@ronnical2489 I'm usually in the never-ending cycle of Low to High Plat NA
They just need to make sure that you can’t be both tanking and heal significantly and get rid of heal reduction. Though since that won’t happen make grievous act like a trigger and when you hit a target and then their first instance of healing occurs afterwards then the passive profs for 3 seconds.
This is an incredibly hard mechanic to balance. You have to go through every champ to see what reaction it will have with them. I agree with you, because too many Mundos have crushed my low elo games even when I have grievous. I hope they get it right sooner rather than later
I think this was something LS talked about 2 seasons ago. The only reason you should buy GW is if you are facing 2 or more healing champs, if the item fits very well on you anyway, or youre a damage over time based champ vs 1 or more healers
@@fusionxtras is graves a healing champ
@@chriss6439 i dont believe so
@@chriss6439 Both of his main builds have a decent amount of life steal.
@@Swolsuke exactly though, there’s no inherent healing at all in graves kit but he can heal more than vlad with his shotgun auto… healing champs versus lifesteal champs is just garbage because GW would ruin vlads entire identity, but graves can just build a different item if they have GW…
red kayn presses r. heals to full health after exeting because he loses grevious wounds whilst inside you 😂
LS actually had a stream clip talking about how bait it was to buy grievous wounds vs raka, yuumi the archetypical healing champs since all they have to do is wait 3 seconds and grieve only actually works on a few healing mechanics in the game and not enchanters, except for dot champs as mentionedn
I've only ever felt like I can play good using ignite and that lasts a while and is still hard to time right. Every time I've tried building grevious it never feels good and I feel like I fall behind from that point. Thanks for the explanation now it makes a lot more sense.
Agree that Mages/tanks benefit from grevious wounds. I almost thought that Doublelift was going to catch on to why LS was the Liandy's salesman because everyone practically built Morello first during that meta while watching the video.
Just make it a timed ability, lasts for 10 seconds has a cool down of ~5 for procing it
They could make heals more like POE, like you get the heal over a duration instead of instantly. Then you could add items that make the duration shorter, so you have to invest item slots to get that OP instant heal. That way people can still have that drain tank build fantasy, but theyd have to give up a damage or defense item.
Like soraka when she Qs someone
Good idea tbh
@@unicode3402 insane healing should be overtime I think honestly should just work with percentage maybe above a 300 heal half gets healed instantly and the rest is over time kinda like deathsdance for the heal not damage of the detahsdance
this is the best idea I'ever seen. Please Riot see this.
Honestly, with how cracked healing is nowadays, even when grevious is applied I see people healing for so much.
been wondering this for so many years
They should change grievous wounds so that damaging a target provides healing absorption equal a percentage of damage dealt to the target and increase the duration of the debuff.
Y'know power creep is a thing when ur answer to the xteenth drain tank is to just give everyone grevious wounds 💀
Never ask your adc to buy grievous wounds, my filosophy on this mechanic is: the person who aplies it most eficiently, has to be the one to buy it, and most of the time it's gonna be either a tank or enchanter.
I agree, AoE champs or enchanters are a fitting choice but not all support are good with this item on.
I.e. Bard Braum Shaco ..
Ignite is just better in general just be wise.
Tanks do not apply it well. Unless they have bamis and morellos. This combo works for some tanks who gets value from the ap. But for tanks like ornn, ap is a very bad stat as only his R has a 20% scaling with it and he only really wants to build hp, armor or mr to scale with his passive. I do build bramble on him, but it's a poor way to reduce healing for the reasons mentioned in the video.
the dot from liandries applies the grievous right? that extends it to near the 10 second mark i think so should be good based on his 10s rule? that being said have been saying this frvr healing and damage being high as shit have been my biggest issues for a while.
Double lift out here really thinking someone has a soraka on their team tracking everyone’s grevious wounds debuff
This is the same thing as whne there is a red kayn and he can wait in someone with his r till his grievous runs out and he full health again
Smite has a really good mechanic for out of combat healing, it reduces healing by like 60-70% when out of combat with an enemy god. This means the value you get for purchasing anti-heal items increases since you’re now cutting their healing when it’s at its most optimal.
I think build only based counterplay is bad. Even on the side of the healing character, it's not like you can outplay grievous really. Your champion just doesn't work nearly as well anymore. I'm of the opinion that it should be removed entirely and healing rebalanced around not having it.
Wdym, just oneshot the aatrox with a yuumi on them 5head
The worst part of GW is that the components are too cheap but the full items are (all of them except the support one) a complete robbery, that only increase the healing reduction conditionally for some reason
What’s even more sad is as an adc you have to get Kraken, LDR and Grievous wounds/Mortal Reminder to somewhat do damage against a tank/bruiser comp with insane healing. Meanwhile, those same champs will easily kill you with no counterplay whatsoever.
And then they get Death's Dance and they're inmune to your damage, and tower damage
Give it a Sheen-like CD (20 sec or something) with an obvious indicator for blocked healing. 100% reduction for three 3-5 seconds when it's applied. 25% for another 3-5 after. Or make it a targeting item with a semi-permanent state (until death or something). There's a lot of ideas, frankly. Mortal Reminder could have had "stacks" where it builds 5% reduction every auto and loses 5% every second (and synergizing with attack speed builds). Thornmail could have been a reverse "Knight's Vow" where a tank identified someone to screw over in particular. They could have even given it a quality like Sion's passive, "If I die, you don't get to heal for 10 seconds, so I'm taking you with me," kind of thing. Lots of ways. Bramble could have even had a "reverse healing" idea to it, where if someone is _healed_ they actually lose life instead with a DoT, or stack a bleed (making it something you stack on Darius just to make _him_ more busted). Morello could have had a "saved up heal" charge, that transfers into damage, if you receive healing from an external source (making full heal comps more cancer). Morello could have been exceptionally unique, if the item had to be "linked" to an ability, which is the only one that would proc the anti-heal, but the percent reduction could be based on that abilities AP (100 base damage per 5% or something) ratios and time (second for second) making each type of anti-heal more unique per game, and forcing people to pay attention.
200 years of healing
Idk.. I see so much healing from the state bar reduced when I use it at the right time.
I get grievous wounds when there's a Mundo or Darius on the other team just because I'm going to be hitting them a lot in team fights and will be mitigating their healing substantially.
Instead of grievous , have something to break through hella shielding since that’s now the new healing that gives too much benefits without punish
I feel like when I ult with swain in a team fight I get a lot of value from GW but when I buy it on bruisers or tanks or marksmen it feels like it does nothing
there's way too much healing atm to just remove grievous wounds
Fun ideas to combat healing:
Support item like redemption, after 0.5s stops all healing from enemies and allies in ring, after 5 seconds heals 50% of that amount to allies.
Domination Rune that applies grievous wounds upon damage. Starts at 15%, +5% per unique champion kill, 50% at full stacks.
Summoner spell, deals true damage equal to healing and 50% of shield gain on the target last 3s.
Taking damage from champions now applies “recently hurt” debuff in which all healing now applies healing over time instead (20% each second for 5s).
There is an item in shop now that removes this debuff while in battle. (One for tank spp and ad)
idk
Have you seen the Grievous wounds for Enchanters?
I agree but it is valuable when a mega healer diver is fed like Rhaast or Aatrox.
Nobdy calls kayne rhast hes red kayne u being weird
@@jjog2895 ?? people do, the fuck r u on about, just because you don t see it doesn t mean it has to be your way, also why the fuck you care how he says it?
I like what Paladins did, everyone has healing reduction by default and the healing reduction scales higher in potency as the game goes on
I just don't see the point of it in the first place. If healing on champion kits is so problematic then build counters into those abilities, such as having healing over time (Mundo, Swain) be reduced by crowd control, leeching abilities (Vlad, Sylas) be based on damage dealt so it's reduced by armor/mr, and so on. I don't understand why healing is so special that it requires dedicated counter items when there are no such items against for example dashes. Yeah without GW you'll probably get rolled by a 20/1 Vlad but at that point the dude deserves the win.
If anything Riot should just look into Smites idea of having heal reduction aura items and balance that out so wouldnt have to worry about needing to hit someone with something specific
There's also heal cut items that just don't work on certain champs. Any tank or frontline without cc can't get Thornmail. A good example is Mundo. He will never proc the 60% heal cut despite needing to get that as a heal cut item as a tank. There is also not a magic resist heal cut item so if you face a sylas, vlad, mordekaiser you're screwed.
The amount of times I get ping or shit on for not buying Thornmail as Mundo, pisses me off more than it should.
What does having cc have to do with thornmail? People will hit you with attacks.
@@Sammysapphira read the description of the item and come back.
@@Sammysapphira Thornmail only grants 40% heal cut against autos, to inflict the full 60%, you need to Immobilize the target. Mundo can only "immobilize" an enemy by killing them with E; there's no way for him to inflict the 60% heal cut.
Even if you apply 60% by immobilizing them they wouldn't heal in the time they are immobile anyways. And leaves time window of maybe 1 sec where it can actually reduce by 60%
Seems to me it isn't there to reduce all healing and it def shouldn't be bought all the time. It's just that if you have an enemy team that is built only around healing you can counter it somehow.
I agree with your point at 3:57 . Another moba that balances healing extremely well is smite, even though Im sure people here don't play it. Healing in smite is mostly tick based with a few exceptions. Heal-cut in smite lasts 6 seconds and can be reapplied with abilities hit. Alot of Gods have heal-cut (which can differ) in their kits and some even have true heal-cut (where you heal for zero) if you are affected by it. Another way to balance heal-cut (or greivious wounds) is just by making it more accessible and adding it into core items as a passive. Or adding it into specific items like a crit item heal-cut. There are alot of ways to make anti-heal (or greivious wounds) viable and/or more accessible in league.
Its funny that he says he doesnt wanna argue about GV but Baus have been telling his chat to stfu up when theyve asked him for over a 2 years XD
I feel like 10seconds would be overkill but I think grevious should maybe last till 5seconds out of combat or something. That way if you got a 15second team fight it has the potential to stay up that entire fight unless they back away and reset the debuff.
Mortal is pretty much only for stopping tanks from healing. Anyone who can get out of combat to heal is unaffected.
healing in this game is so fking broken that even if u have grievous wounds perma applied on some champs it just doesnt make a difference
Always felt that buying executioner just delay the ie power spike too much
I've only ever felt actual use from Morello or thorns when fighting a Warwick, and I've never actually felt life steal or vamp do anything at all when I use it, only feel it when it's the enemy team.
Lmao I understand this feeling. It's maybe a psychological effect where sometimes you feel like your Liandry isn't doing shit to the enemy but when you get touched by Liandry's it FEELS like it's doing massive damage to you and you should just stay in base. Same with your lifesteal and theirs. 🤣
NEW PATCH! all healing effects now occur over a 3 second BANDAGE effect
The problem is, I like sustain top lane tanks like Nasus, Darius, Renekton, Maokai and to some extend Vlad, Swain, and Morde. So removing grievous wounds buffs them, but reducing global healing greatly nerfs them too.
Honestly idgaf abt who gets nerfed net healing needs turned down by like fuckin 70%. Being able to heal ocean soul levels of hp should be thr exception not the norm.
Maybe they could bring back enchantments like homeguard boots. You can enchant mythics or boots again idk
Maybe they should add more healing reduction abilities. Tristana E had it. Kat also had it on basic ability(2 reworks ago,now on R). There are only 4 champs now with grievous wounds in their kit.
Super specific counters like that make champs super hard to balance.
@Tee Leo everybody shits on tanks, if you dont have it on your kit just build anti tank
this video reached deaf ears cause riot nerfed grievous wounds
I've never built these items outside of ARAM.
the only 2 that seem relatively worth it are the support item cause depending on the support (sona) you can very easily give it to 3-4 team mates on top of the support having it, and thornmail but that one mainly because it comes with much better stats along with the GW and cause with a nice AOE CC you can apply 60% to a lot of people
Sona was broken for a while b4 getting nerfed b/c she could rush chemtech and give the whole team greviois wounds
it would be better if griveous wounds temporarily and increasingly reduced max health as the effect is applied; something like "10% of dmg dealt to enemy champions reduce their current max health for that amount for 3 seconds", that way their healing will have less value as fights progress, but you would still have to deal a ton of dmg to reduce max hp too much. its just weird that almost every healing item also gives hp as a base stat
I remember when grev was just something on ignite we all barley thought about, now it must be in every item build path
This is another one of those things they're probably going to change since some streamer brought attention. It's an old mechanic that is something I personally enjoyed as one of those things that keeps the game fresh, and unpredictable. Maybe they don't like the skill expression of trying to intentionally proc your grev. Whatever they do I hope they don't remove more and more of these little things that if you knew about you could have a slight edge, although I can understand trying to make the game more new player friendly with less of these hidden mechanics, but in my opinion that's what made learning this game the best thing to do. I hope Riot sees how important the little things are and don't remove it all
honestly i thought it was mainly an early game item to deal with sustain champs.
How Grievous wounds should work: it creates a heal shield that gets depleted by heals that they have to overcome before they can get healed again. So if you apply 200 points of grievous and then Soraka drops E on them the heal is reduced by 200. There could be additional UI elements on their hp bar that communicate this giving additional clarity that the current system sorely lacks.
thats too complicated. best if they just remove grievous and nerf healing by 40% (at least). or make it more accessable
As an ADC, it's just a no brainer that this class isn't supposed to build any grievous item, it's not their duty nor can they likely hit multiple target effectively for that duration. But there are some exceptions...
For example, a nautilus that buys bramble vest (800g) first item has so much value, the grievous wounds + reflective damage + armor, makes it a strong early stomper.
-reduce 40% healing,
-autohits return some dmg back to aggressor,
-armor reduces dmg taken (making your health and shields be more effective).
The upgraded version of Bramble; Thornmail, can be proc'd easily. Just naut autohit cc passive does the trick and applies the upgraded grievous wounds.
For AP and non-crit AD, they gain the upgraded effect when the target is below a certain % HP, I think it was 50%. As long as the target remain above that, they basically only get the 800g version of grievous wounds, not the full price upgrade.
And in most cases, GETTING those targets below that point is the tough part, like a Vladimir, Fiora, AAtrox, Rhast/Red Kayn, Mundo etc.
For that situation, grievous wounds inflicted by a crit-build player (or thornmail on champ that can immobilize targets); will apply the UPGRADED version. Which is much more powerful, because there is no threshold condition depending on the ENEMY's situation, the situation is dependent on YOU instead (just do 3 autos to proc mortal reminder, or immobilize target with thornmail).
And "some" ADC or crit-build champs can rapidly proc 3 autos through auto-resets, hail of blades, and such.
Example: Twitch, building Mortal Reminder + Runaan's Hurricane... (with hail of blades or lethal tempo)
He is capable of popping ult and rapidly inflicting 3+ autos over potentially all 5 enemies.
He probably hasn't dropped tankier targets to anywhere near 50% HP, but the grievous wounds effect is the full -60% healing.
There are 2 TYPES of grievous wounds items...
Mortal Reminder + Thornmail. (The condition is dependent on YOU to apply the upgraded effect).
Chempunk Chainsword + Morellonomicon. (The condition is dependent on the ENEMY, to fall below 50% hp, to apply upgraded effect).
Chempunk Chainsword and Morello may now seem like a bad pick out of those 2 types because the condition isn't yours, but depends on the champion.
Chainsword and morello, on champions with high burst that can drop targets to below 50%, is where you get value out of it, you can seal their doom (Rengar, zed, riven, fizz, kata, zoe, akali, etc).
But morello on something like veigar, is probably not ideal because you likely just press R if the target is a squishy at 50% hp anyway (and veigar likely wont inflict it on multiple targets easily), it's better sense to just bulk up more AP or get magic pen and never buy grievous wounds.
Hope this point made sense, and an interesting thing to discuss further. I'd like to learn more.
We need a 5 sec duration.
This wouldn't be a problem if champs that heal a shit ton didn't also have the ability to just run you down and do more damage than actual AD/AP carries while also being beefy as hell. Looking at aatrox and vlad in particular.
make the effect longer and change Mikael's Crucible to cut the debuff, make a new thornmail with worse values but with area effect, you use it like any other iten and if you hit they get debuff
Only grievous wound items that are worth it: bramble vest/thornmail and chemtech
Grievous is still nuts against champs like Swain or Warwick who are healing practically all the time.
Just spitballing: make grievous wounds a modular item that can be applied to *_any_* item.
So you can build anything you want and then choose which item to "enchant" or "empower" with Grievous Wounds.
Grievous wound boot enchants
@@emceemikey R.I.P. Casseopia. 🪦
@@Hertz2laugh inherent champ weaknesses :)
I play a ton of ori and ekko and got fed up with healing. So for a while I was buying oblivion orb second and then waiting till 3rd or 4th item to complete it. When I was buying it I felt always super weak. It was noticable so I go for core 3 and then decide. But that remains healing is still fucked.
Gw is what riot used to call anti fun.
It is boring to use as the user, and super frustrating to deal with as the person affected. AND even then sometimes it just straight up sucks trying to use it and the other guy ends up completely unaffected.
The net result is less fun than otherwise would be had.
And it doesn’t stack, so multiple people buying it is awkward. And it messes up laning phase too because it’s balanced around teamfights.
It also losses value the more people on your team that has it.
Another point is the conditional nature of greivous means that it might not proc at all. Imagine your aatrox top vs ornn and the ornn buys bramble vest. Late game when are you EVER gonna auto the ornn in team fights? He's gonna drain/heal so much and never auto the ornn once in a team fight. That just forces a second player to buy greivous or lose to immortal aatrox.
Back up to the idea that certain champs revolve around healing and if your opponent can win lane with a single 800gp purchase it feels real bad. Grievous is kinda bad for the healers too.
I typed this before watching the full video and I feel kinda dumb now.
I think applying for 10 seconds is the right answer. That lasts through all abilities and stasises and other ways out of it, and then at least you're rewarded for applying it when you can.
7:21 whole summary of this video in one second
Wait, i thought grievous wounds also included INCOMING healing.
I think swains healing is really balanced since he never just explodes with hp it’s usually over time so if you notice him healing that and him landing E and W especially now it takes a lot of counterplay his R doesn’t heal him for that much and he can easily be 1v1 but being more if he’s draining 5 and maybe lands a 3 person E W that’s where he should heal a lot since that took all of skill
To another point Vlad does burst heal because he is expected to take a bunch of dmg and be gw debuffed. It's a healing arms race where healing gets more broken to compensate for anti-heal being so prevalent. Swain suffers for this because he is competing against champs like vlad and soraka when his healing is nowhere near broken enough to warrant gw changes.
as an adc i always say nah enchant support and/or tank buy it
The best anti heal is more damage.
Play against ulted Aatrox with Maw active... Grievous doesn't even feel like it exists.
I still don't get why ADs can't just have a Zhonia's, like APs
griefiest wounds
Mages do dots but adcs attack more often than anyone else
Something what i wondered to, what is the cool down of grievous wounds? Like after 3 sec is gone, is it on cool down for 1 min or what? Is it basiacly 3 sec out of combat you can heal. I hate grievous wounds especially when playing Akali or Yasuo. Cass would be understandable, good point. They should atleast buff the attack damage to 45 or atleast make it more valuabe, since it stunts core to much.
how about, an aura instead? much better for tanks so you don't have to worry about conditions, and they can make grievous wounds an item not recommended for any carry only for tanks or fighters, or those who engage, increase the duration of it by 5-10s
Grevious woulds should mark you and the mark reduces your next heal by 70% and then last for 5 seconds after that.
The mark is removed if you are out of combat or better yet back in base cus fuck healing.
Imagine NOT having Grievous Wounds in TOP lane when ur behind against an irelia
doesn't affect DL's point. just because it's insanely good 1% of the time doesn't mean the mechanic is good for game balance. since DL wants healing to be balanced w/o grievous wounds, irelia could simply receive a nerf to her healing if necessary.
The issue I always run into is that most the time a top lane champs grievous would be a bramble vest and irelia has to hit you to proc it. Half the time it doesn’t matter that you have it cuz you can trade with the irelia, and even if she doesn’t heal during the fight, she just has to chill a few seconds then q the next wave and she’s full health anyway. For it to have value you have to fully all in her in one fight cuz if you let her out of combat for a short time she can just heal off the wave without interacting with you.
@@GeekProdigyGuy I totally agree with DL's point, the thing is that GW is the only form of counterplay to the amount of healing that exist in the game, even more so with champions that have healing in their kits. Good thing that part of this healing is getting nerfed in the upcoming changes, now i can finally enjoy playing shyvana top 😌