THE THAMES TORSO MURDERS: Was Jack the Ripper Responsible For More Crimes?
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- čas přidán 28. 06. 2022
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I will never complain about an uncomfortable bed again after seeing those rope beds.
Yeah. I was thinking if something a little more when I saw 'rope bed'... my bad for thinking it was some kind of primitive hammock... a rope bed is just lazy...
They were probably mostly all pissed (drunk) so wouldn't have cared.
Absolutely crazy. Paying to drape yourself over a rope - how does one sleep like that? You're right - probably passed out drunk.
These cases seems even more brutal than the Ripper murders. Heads and limbs removed. Contents of chest cavity removed and just an empty thorax wrapped as a parcel. So callous and deranged.
Was it Jack or a separate serial killer? Seems to be totally different M.O. but the victims were also poor and possibly sex workers. The one who seemed well-groomed may be an exception, yet she was still never identified - very unusual for a lady or gentleman of substance not to be reported missing and/or identified by family or co-workers. Just chilling
They were comfie
@@lyndoncmp5751 this is true
As someone who has studied the Ripper murders for years I'm in the minority of researchers who think the Thames Torso murders WERE the work of Jack the Ripper. Here are some reasons.
1--The only identified victim of the the Thames Torso murders, Elizabeth Jackson, was a know prostitute. The victims of JTR were also believed to all be prostitutes. And despite what people might think the killing of a prostitutes was NOT that common in London at the time. I've literally looked at thousands of murders and assaults in London during this time period and can say it was not a common occurrence. Occasionally assaults, yes, but not murder. Especially not one involving this type of brutality. The overwhelming number of murders were committed by people who knew the victims (usually partners of the victim).
2--One of the victims was found in the construction site of Scotland Yard. Police literally doubled patrols during the Ripper murders to catch the murderer but to no avail. Leaving a body at this site appears to have been someone taunting the police (why put a dead body there of all places).
3--One of the victims was found in the East end not far from where the other victims of JTR were found.
4-Ripper researcher Debra Arif located a medical jurisprudence book called ' A system of legal medicine' which contains details from some of Dr. Bond who examined Elizabeth Jackson's remains. The description of the victim's remains should mutilations that were similar to some of the Ripper victims.
Yes the MO seems to be different and not all bodies were found in the East End like those of the Ripper. However there could have been some reason for this. Perhaps the torso victims were dismembered to hide the identity of the victims. Why hide their identity and NOT hide the identity of RIpper victims? While the Ripper's victims were thought to be strangers to the perpetrator that were solicited perhaps the torso victims could have been KNOWN to the murderer and he was afraid they could be traced back to him. Just speculation on my part.
I did a presentation about this case last semester, after reading a book that featured it (The A-Z of Victorian Crime, in case anyone wants to read it, but I don't recommend because it offers a very general idea of crimes without going in depth about anything).
What puzzles me the most about this case is that, according to the book I mentioned, a fetus was found in a pickle jar on the Thames the day before Elizabeth was found, but the doctor determined that the fetus wasn't hers... the question I have is: to whom did the fetus belong? Why put it in a pickle jar and throw it the river?? And where's Elizabeth fetus? Was this an attempted fetal abduction?
The fetus in the prickle jar could have come from an abortion, or a person might have miscarried or delivered a baby they didnt want, couldn’t afford or even unmarried and didn’t want to be ostracized. Maybe the person didn’t want to be linked to the fetus or have anyone know they were pregnant.
@@roie1077 yeah, my mom also thinks that it was from a abortion. But my question is why the jar?? Andvthere was something so nonchalantly that they talked about it in the book, as if finding fetuses was a normal thing
@@camibvaz the jar might have just be a convenient container to allow for concealment and disposal. Abortions were illegal they probably just didn’t want people to see what was in jar.
The tourniquet around the arm makes me wonder if the were dismembered alive, as when the heart stops you don't really need to stop blood postmortem.
Congratulations for this excellent video. I would like to inform you that the novel "The Most Dangerous Animal. A Victorian thriller"" by Uruguayan ripperologist Gabriel Pombo , has been published in Spanish (2016), whose plot is based on the case of the Thames Torso Murderer. Best regards.😊
As ever, I love your take on these crimes. If you're interested, there's a book by Andrew Wise and Drew Gray called 'Jack the Ripper and the Thames Torso Murders: A New Suspect?'. I don't personally subscribe to the theory that the Ripper murders and the Thames Torso murders were connected, but it's a fascinating read.
I think it possible the two killers could have known each other though. Perhaps they were even in competition with each other 🤔
@@SpiceGhouls probably played a little Golf between ' times " .but
Yes their modus operandi does seem different, (I can't believe I've not heard about this though the ripper has truly overshadowed the Thames torso cases).
@Erin Baillie - I completely agree with you. It's an interesting read, but I(edit-*Don't) entertain the theory seriously either.
Always been fascinated by Jack the Ripper. I believe he probably killed more than just five. He may have been responsible for later Torso cases, but I think most of the Torso murders were actually body parts used by medical students larking around. I also have the same book as you xxx
I read the book you recommend some years back. It is an interesting case with multiple predatory killers, but if you interlace that with the fact that some believe JTR did not kill either Martha Tabram or Elizabeth Stride and, others say Mary Kelly too was a victim of someone else, there could very well have been several seriously sick puppies in London at that time. The Ripper letters incidentally are of course almost unanimously considered fakes and not from the actual killer. That said there is something eerily off about the one referenced in the torso case.
Being obsessed with Jack the Ripper myself, I definitely do not think these two cases are related. Different styles of murder. Different killer signature, as it were. Thank you for covering these interesting cases!
look up the house of lechmere its a yt channel u prob like
Charles Lechmere
Hi Georgia, well this was wonderful. I am so intrigued by Victorian London, especially enjoy all stories on Jack the Ripper.
It wasn't the killer though who taunted the press - it's widely accepted that the so-called Jack The Ripper letters were written by journalists.
Great video! There's a book called 'Cutting Point' by Christer Holmgren which is exhaustively researched and persuasively concludes that the two series of murders were carried out by the same person.
PEOPLE CAN TWIST THE TRUTH 2 FIT WHAT THEY SAY LIKE WE KNOW CROSS WAS AT WORK WHEN CHAPMAN WAS KILLED BUT HE TWISTED THE TIMES 2 MAKE OUT HE WAS RESPONSIBLE
Oooh fab! I can't wait for bedtime to listen to this 🥰
It's a bit of a generalisation to say that the Torso murders happened at the same time as Jack the Ripper's, when in fact the latter happened in a concentrated burst of about 4 months, but the Torso murders took place sporadically over several years. Also, whilst the Ripper operated in a very small, focused part of the East End, committing most of his murders in very public places, the Torso cases were spread further apart, with several of the victims' body parts covertly dumped in the West or Central London.
Unfortunately, I've found that many writers who try to link the two cases tend to underplay or dismiss the significant differences in timescale, frequency, geography and MO/signature, which seems like special pleading at best. I'm with Georgia in thinking it far more probable that different killers were responsible for the Ripper and Torso murders, and I'm not even convinced that one person was responsible for all the latter, either.
Crime history has shown us that dismemberment and covertly disposing of a victim's body parts is hardly original, but what the Ripper did - killing and eviscerating a victim in a *public* place, before cutting out the victim's organs within a few minutes - is a much rarer, and very different, thing to do.
What books do u recommend
@@urbantrixsta6514 "Cutting Point" by Christer Holmgren. While we do know who JTR was, we only have the best suspect for Thames Torso killer. If you are reluctant to purchase the book, start with the free YT documentary "JTR The Missing Evidence" and YT channel "The House of Lechmere".
@@blazbratovic2724 Ha ha ha! Oh wow. "While we do know who JTR was..."
@@billybillerson2555 You need to change priors after new data.
For example, you need to evaluate how likely is that JTR would start disemboweling his victim but cut it short and insted of removing organs would simply cut her throat, cover her abdominal wounds (instead of posing the victim in degrading position) and then simply go away without external factors influencing his decision AND an innocent passer-by would stand by the body for about 9 minutes without doing anything (he runs into problem of maximum bleeding time from throat wound as well) and then lie to a policeman shortly afterwards. The list of course goes on.
Another really interesting video, thanks Georgia!
Victorian England really fascinates me, thank you for shining light on history and older cases.
The fact that the police asked people to report seeing someone covered in blood just made me laugh. I know there are legit reasons for someone walking around with blood on them, but isn't that generally the kind of thing people would report if they knew there's a killer in the area? Maybe it's a time period thing, but sometimes the things they asked people to look out for back then were pretty obvious.
As far as a connection to Jack the Ripper goes, I don't know if I believe that they were the same person, but it is quite possible. It would be interesting if we were to someday find out who both killers are and if they had a connection to each other (or if they were the same person). Maybe we'll know someday when a time traveller goes back to find out.
Media back then versus now had a little less lies - but "salacious" has always been connected to rags.
@@Loralanthalas I don't think that the media was more truthful, but the cops back then would often give more info than they would now. They had more facts and police opinions, but they still had the tendency to exaggerate and lie.
I love your history series!! I woukd happily watch an entire channel of yours on history!
You've been coming out with some incredibly fascinating and unheard of, unheard of to me at least, cases recently, great job 👏 👍
Georgia can I just say your outfit and makeup are absolutely stunning queen
9:30 “had now been find” I think you meant found, love lmao. Great video as always!
I LOVE your history series! I love your true crime videos! This is a nice little combo ❤️
Can’t wait to watch this when I’m done working x
Informative!
I'm glad you're here to tell the tale, Georgia!
Abortion carried a great social stigma at that time. If an otherwise healthy young woman died after a botched abortion, the people responsible might have gone to extreme lengths to avoid detection, especially if some social scandal might result from finding an intact body..
Still, there are some complications here, including the polished nails and the tattoo. My favourite Jack the Ripper suspect is James Maybrick's brother Michael; using different MOs would fit him perfectly.
Thanks for this video, Georgia. Have a cracking weekend!
Places offering rope beds were nicknamed “flop houses”..As in the morning the end of the rope was untied making anyone still leaning on the rope to ‘flop’, down…
This is an interesting case - it deserve more attention, now its overshadowed by JTR. I don't think the murdered was the same as Jack the Ripper at all. I do think the 1873-74, 1884 and 1887-89 cases are linked; and the 1886 Paris murder may also have been. The killer in this case may perhaps have been a rich man (which I don't actually think the Ripper was), who managed to keep his victims hidden, and who hade the resources to travel to Paris in 1886. Some has dismissed the killer being an upper class man by saying that mostly a killer killes people of his own class: but that's hosw a lack of historical understanding, since upper class women in this time period were simply not allowed to be alone with any man. The 1884 victim was identified as an upper class woman because of the condition of her remains, but that does not mean she belonged to the aristocracy: she could have been a sex worker of a different category than the poor street walkers: she could have been a "high class courtesan".
Love these old cases my ancestors were also from victorian London which is the part of history I love the most
I feel like the anti semitic line which the original reporting of the Ripper cases might have had something to do with it. It was easier to sell papers centered around people’s previously existing prejudices where the monster was already half formed, versus nobody we had no detail about. There’s also the nature of the work of most of the victims of the Ripper. The level of moral panic which always surrounds SWers means that people like to sensationalize and victim blame when they’re killed. Because there was no identity for the first victim with the Torso killer, the story would have been harder to definitively make that move with.
All conjecture, naturally, but those would be my guesses as to why the Torso murders got less attention at the time.
It is said that only 1 ripper victims was a 'lady of the night'
@@markshaw270 Except we have pretty solid proof that most of them had at least casually engaged with the work.
@@SandmanLibrary source of proof?
@@markshaw270 Pick up any book detailing the ripper case and the policing reports from the time. I'm knee deep in articles and research currently focusing on marginalised communities and policing for my actual degree, so I don't have the set article off my head right now.
@@SandmanLibrary so than its hearsay? Okie dokie
I personally think that maybe the reason the torso killings received less interest was because the victims names weren't known. It's the personal touch that most people find more interesting, knowing people who knew the victims, hearing what they were like, who their family was... That's my guess anyway.
Have you done a video about Jack the Ripper? I would looove to watch!!
I bet it was a bored rich kid who got to travel a lot, which would explains time gaps between victims. He might have just been killing elsewhere during the “breaks.
The Whitehall Mystery board game brought me here (and its bigger brother, Letters from Whitechapel based on the Ripper murders, both excellent games)
I never heard of this case. It always amazes me how brutal serial killers or murderers were in the 1800s.
0:34 The Metropolitan Police thought they weren't the same person but as they were the coppers who couldn't catch either, they're probably not a reliable source of information.
Obsessed with Jack the Ripper, yes I know I’m weird lol
Me too. That's how I got into true crime as a whole
Archaeologists, Historians and Scholars agree...we cannot understand a past time period or what I was like to live in that era precisely because we lack the context of living in that time... So any understanding we have of the past or people living in it is a vague one at best...
Not weird at all! He was the serial killer that started my now 20+yrs true crime interest lol.
Not sure if you’ve read the book and listened to the podcast by Hallie Rubenhold called Bad Women-the untold ripper story (don’t let the title fool you lol) and her book The Five: the untold story of the victims of Jack the Ripper. They both take a deep dive into each of the canonical 5 and their lives long before the murders and who they truly were. Definitely recommend 👍
Have you read The Five? Tells the backstories of the victims ❤️
As a 10 year old i was obsessed, daily walks to the library to consume everything i could find on JTR. Something struck my young brain as to how this guy was able to evade the police for eternity. I almost find it more interesting as i get older and realise he was no genius but most likely a normal bloke who got lucky.
MY GOD YOU ARE SO CLEVER, I START TO READ ABOUT THIS. THERE IS ANOTHER CASE YOU CAN COVER PLEASE . THAT IS ABOUT BRITHTON TRUNK KILLING. THANK YOU AND YOU DO LOOK VERY NICE.
I'll just have to eat lunch later. 😂
Churchill's mother had a tattoo. She was American, but I had always heard it was in fashion at that time.
💗💗💗💗
historic midweek mystery over 30 minutes = day made
"When the world hands you Lechmere, make Le cats meat." --famous Pinchon street Mom colloquialism.
Just commenting for the algorithm ❤️🧡
I bet like you so many of us have ancestors with connections to these cases and don’t even know. My great great grandad worked for the Met Police back in the late 1880s and 1890s so could have even been involved with the investigation! Fascinating.
I would recommend a book Cutting Point by Christer Holmgren. While the case against Charles Lechmere (also Charles Cross at the inquest - the man who was found at the scene of murder of Polly Nichols ) as JTR is conclusively confirmed by QC James Scobie in the documentary "JTR:The Missing Evidence" (best viewed on DailyMotion), the book makes compelling case that JTR and Thames Torso killer were indeed the same person.
Except that it is based on circumstantial evidence alone, nothing concrete
@@khaleelmohammed9924 Robert Black was convicted on circumstantial evidence alone in modern times.
@@blazbratovic2724 Robert Black was court with a child in his van
@@user-dc4uk5gw8d Indeed, but in a murder trial this is a circumstantial evidence.
@@blazbratovic2724 Annie Chapman was killed between 5:15 and 5:30Am Cross started work at 4am
Liz Stride not Ripper
Cathy Eddows was killed west of his home
Kelly was killed on a public holiday meaning he as not at work on the 9th and Millers Court was not on his way home from his mothers
🙌
This case has always been more fascinating than Jack the Ripper to me personally. I seem to recall that some body parts even turned up on the estate of Mary Shelley. Read that at least a few times in the past but if that's not accurate please let me know.
1873-1989...
Funny how those that say the jtr was the ttm never mention about the the murders starting on 1873.
Lollll well technically no one did make it outta Victorian London alive lol
❤
The Thames killing was in 1960s
1870s n 1960s
Holy cow! You showed a pic of a policeman with a flashlight. Wich i then wondered how it was lit way back then. Turns out batteries were invented in 1800!!!! 😮
He's actually using a "bullseye lantern" - a portable, hand-held oil lamp, which British police still used well into the 20th century. I believe they only started to phase them out in favour of new-fangled flashlights from the 1920s onwards.
They were invented way before then
😨😱😨😱😨
❤️🇬🇧❤️🇬🇧❤️
All brutal murderers that cut bodies up were Jack the Ripper or the Torso murderer. The man who killed the gemtile woman was not the same man who killed the lower cast ones.
😳😨😳😨😳
💛🤩💛
It's possible. 🤷♀
Georgia, Mary Jane Kelly 1988? You sure about that? Lol
🌹❤️🌹❤️🌹
No he wasnt.
‘She was brunette as seen by her armpit hair’. Even blondes get darker armpit and pubic hair so this logic is lost on me.
alot of people think the torso murder is the same person that killed the black daliah
Almost certainly not Jack the Ripper I submit. A very different MO, and a timeline that the Ripper killings fall in the middle of. Probably a much more organized serial killer as well, and one who took a lot less risks.
Huh. So now we have the Torso Murders, Jack the Ripper and JJ Holmes all tied together? Also how did they know the found fetus in the jar didn’t belong to her? Also peaks my curiosity!
An age of medical experimentation as well as possible resentful failed medical students.....
The chances of two serial killers in the same area around the same time is non existent not every killing is a carbon copy of the previous it's JTR
Haigh n Christy were around West London in 1940s
You say the chances of two Serial Killers operating in the same area are non existent there are cases that show you are completely wrong
Look up The Baton Rouge Ghost (1992-2003) Derrick Todd Lee and The Baton Rouge Killer (1994-2004) Sean Vincent Gillis they each killed at least 8 different women in Baton Rouge Louisiana between 1992-2004.
Charles Lechmere.
Let’s start with some common sense. Serial killers are rare. Dismemberment or killers that attack their victims post death are extremely rare. How rare? According to the FBI database in the 1970s 80s and 90s in the United States. A country of 300 million people there were only 50 to 100 active serial killers at any given time. So the possibility that there were two of these types of killers in a city of only 5 million people, operating at the same time is minuscule.
About MO, it’s a myth that serial killers always do the same thing. They change over time, they evolve. There are plenty of examples of this for instance, the Golden State killer. A man, with a very long career that wasn’t caught until after he retired from killing. And that’s another myth. The Jack the Ripper must’ve kept killing, unless he went to prison or died. He could have gotten old and retired. Jack the ripper was about shock, and awe. Leaving his victims on display. I would argue the times torso murderer did the same. He knew those body parts were washing up and were going to be found. He knew what was going to happen when he buried those body parts under Scotland Yard. He even threw body parts in the yard of a house that belongs to Percy Shelley, so apparently, he had a sense of humor. There were victims of the Thames torso murders that had 2 to 3 vertical slices up into the rib cages. As if the killer removed the abdominal wall in large slabs of flesh. Sound familiar? The Whitechapel murderer did the same thing to Polly Nichols, Annie Chapman, Cathrine Eddowes and Mary Kelly. The Pinchin St torso was found under an archway where a house once stood, on what was called Thomas St. Do you believe in coincidences? Guess who lived in that house? The same guy who “found” the freshly killed body of Polly Nichols. The same guy who’s mom lived in Cable St around the corner where she operated a cats meats business. And by the way, why did Jack the Ripper bother to hide the abdominal wounds on Polly by pulling down her skirt? No one knew about those injuries, until after the body was received at the morgue.
the only killer with knife skills was HH HOLMES. 99.9% it was him...none of the men out of the 30 plus names i could recall. Make me pose 1 question. Why only was there talk of 5 women and out of the 5 women killed. None of the men minus HOLMES never killed or where interested before the RIPPER killings. Or killed after the last victim. It would have to been someone passing through the Whitechapel for a short time. Like Holmes...!
Whats with these young women ? - up to their knickers in Blud Blud Blud - why ohh why can't they get into das nicer things in life like - Shaky Shaķin Stevens for a mow or more ( Barry Manilow ķnow he could be Majic ) .
unwatchable
all the photos and images available and we get the ego face
I think people into black magic xx
Could you do a video about the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard case? I think it’s a really interesting case
Could you call this a mid week mystery? Amber Heard's behaviour is a mystery
I do not believe there was any connection between the Jack the Ripper murders and the Torso killings. They were two killlers active at roughly the same time and both part of the wider phenomenon of killings across London. It’s also difficult to know exactly which murders should be attributed to “Jack the Ripper” anyway, only three of those murders can definitely be linked but some of the further deaths were possibly the work of the same killer.