What Do We Want From a Star Wars Movie?
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- čas přidán 15. 02. 2018
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Let’s talk about Star Wars
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Patrick (H) Willems Damn, you’re right, I only ever watched your videos to know what you use to shave! Thanks, Dollar Shave Club! Actually, no joke, their razors are pretty great
Hi where in the UK are you going?
I would argue your argument that "this is for kids", I have another sci-fi fandom that I follow, the Gundam series, and I learn about Gundam as a kid at almost the same time as I learn about Star Wars.
The difference between the 2 is the new Gundam Thunderbolt movie still give me the same feeling while being a flip to the old stories (the Gundam pilot is an a-hole as opposed to a golden hearted kid as any other Gundam series) and TLJ felt like I have just been lectured about how I should behave.
Gundam have a rich lore too, and god knows the fandom are like walking Gundam Wiki as well, the difference between the 2 series is, the creator of Thunderbolt knows and respected those lore, so even though they're flipping the expectations, fans still love them! Heck I'd argue that Gundam Thunderbolt tried to make the same message as this new Star Wars trilogy, about there's no good or bad side in a war, everything is in the shade of grey, that protecting the things you love is more important than winning a war that you don't even understand, that the poor is always the first to suffer.
Another difference is they make these massages without being preachy!
In the end, I just want to say, no I don't hate TLJ because my nostalgia and expectations hinder me, I hate TLJ because it basically forgot that it is a part of a bigger story, heck it even forgot that it is the 2nd movie of its own trilogy. And we don't expect Rey to be a child of some famous Jedi/Sith or how we expect Snoke as Plagueis, it's just the delivery of how these revelations are made in a way that made it seemed to be important and then to be shown as then not important, if you want to make Rey's parentage that she came from nobody as important, then make a big deal about it! Not just from 2 lines at the almost end of the movie, and for a reference I ACTUALLY THEORISED THAT REY'S PARENTS ARE NOBODIES!
That is my rebuttal on your conclusion.
Patrick (H) Willems lol thnx for reminding me I have to shave
Your video would be useful if you did not reprint dated misinformation about the prequels. The prequels had FAR more practical effects work than the original trilogy. The new sequel trilogy uses far more CGI than the prequels. The models and miniatures work of the prequels was the most extensive of the entire franchise.
Patrick: You get a time machine and go forward to the year 2020.
Me: Yeah... Don’t do it. For your healths sake.
Entire human population wiped out by COVID-19 in the 80s, creating a time paradox
I would not subject my parents to being quarantined with my brother and me for a year. They are good people did nothing to deserve such cruel punishment.
It's kind of prophetic how you talked about "the Luke-equivalent" of the Darth Vader-scene, when that exact thing happened in season 2 of The Mandalorian, and fans thought it was the greatest moment ever and proclaimed that "Star Wars has been saved".
Great point.
My rules
1. Must say “ I have a bad feeling about this
2. Someone must lose a Limb
@AHL Productions and mace lost a hand and Anakin lost three limbs.
Did Snoke lose his legs, or everything above the waist? Makes you think.
@@PanAndScanBuddy he also lost his hand.
@@PanAndScanBuddy Snoke died at the moment.
Haha pretty much every one of the new Star Wars Visions short films fills both these criteria lol
After the ending of Mandalorian s2 this video its more significant than ever.
I may be biased because I'm from the generation of the prequels, but from the conversations I've had and witnessed on social media and in general, I believe elements from the prequels are now part of what makes Star Wars a 'Star Wars' movie. The prequels are 'Star Wars' for a whole generation of fans, and now that the generation has grown up, their expectations have been mixed in with the generations of before on what people want from a Star Wars movie.
Interesting perspective, definitely plausible
Lucas is on record saying "every movie I make, I try to make them different." He never set out to recapture the exact same feeling and story of the original movies with the prequels, which is what fans at the time could not have known or expected. They are not flawless of course, but they're not as deserving of the crucifixion they got.
Shamear Ullah It's true. People are actually defending the prequels now.
That is absolutely true., I hate the sequels because they are meant for people who don't like the sequels. They're meant for a different audience entirely.
I think your comment is key, actually. I myself was born less than a year before Phantom Menace came out, so the prequels have always been there (even if I was introduced to them in Lego Video Game form). They have been so much of the lore for me, but I think people like us are also biased for this very reason. I try to stay as objective as possible and keep an open mind to new Star Wars content but a lot of fans like us don’t feel that way. Because they grew up on the prequels, they have basically become biased towards them (or at least, Revenge of the Sith and Clone Wars). To them, the Disney films don’t represent THEIR version of Star Wars, where Jedi were omnipresent saints who were then massacred in edgy, violent fashion (for real, the vast majority of prequel stans are either edgelords or memesters). But what they fail to recognize - and what the original trilogy fans failed to recognize back when the prequels came out - is that those younger fans, who grew up with the newest films, will one day come up and become the majority voice. Pretty soon, when Disney releases more Star Wars films, sequel fans will rise from the rubble and denounce the new movies as not giving them the thrill they had watching the sequels, just like the prequel fans are doing with the sequels. As George Lucas himself once said, “History repeats itself, it rhymes”.
Sand is just the worst though.
MailOrderClone I do not like sand.
But I like Obara Sand
I come back to this video all the time. The point about the Vader Hallway scene is so on point it hurts. Thank you for this video.
I know, right? Like, the scene looks cool and appropriately horrifying. Yet I'm not surprised at all that it's happening or that Vader is not inflicting damage fast enough to accomplish his mission of obtaining the tape immediately.
Oof
Prescient.
I'm really curious why Revenge of the Sith is the worst in your view. Not criticizing, just genuinely curious.
People shouldn't have to explain or defend their opinions for anything. I liked Prometheus but don't feel the need to write a 5 page essay as to why I like it. We need to look passed fan unanimous decisions based upon imdb user scores and understand that it's all how you feel about the films. I stopped being a star wars fan because the arguing got stupid and if I ever have kids, I wouldn't want them to get into fandom stuff if it means arguing all the time.
Oh danmm take that @Akmon Ra!!!
@@Devilsblood "Not criticizing just genuinely curious"
Well, if you look at it considering ROTS is considered better because the "good" stuff happens in it and strip the fact that the good suff happens it's not really better than any of the prequels and furthermore that the execution of the good stuff is often questionable (the death of Padme is really, really dumb for example) he has a point.
He actually discussed this on Twitter. (I don't personally agree with him, I think Attack of the Clones is easily the worst prequel).
twitter.com/patrickhwillems/status/1034794700463587328
Phantom Menace is the most watchable. Not sure I’ve ever heard that before.
When I was 8, I thought that too and I even liked Jar-Jar. But things change and people grow.
It's definitely the best individual movie out of the pequel bunch, even though its storyline could have been skipped in the grand scheme of things. The podracing scene is exhilarating and it has the least awful bluescreen CGI in the trilogy.
Compared to the insufferable, cringeworthy, vaguely creepy "romance" of Clones and the insufferable CG bore-fest of Sith, I'm actually surprised how rarely I hear it.
aneTix is its a manchurian candidate sleeper agent phrase
aneTix is its what I've been saying for awhile...
I was born in 76, and although I didn't see Star Wars in theaters, I saw the Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi in theaters. And, I had to wait for what seemed like an ETERNITY with nothing but what's now called the expanded universe, or, "Legends."
I know that feeling, of the original trilogy being, "pure," and profound, and it was probably the thing that was the most constant presence during my childhood in the early 80's.
Even though I actually enjoyed and celebrated the prequel trilogy when it finally arrived, I still always preferred the orig trig.
But, now I absolutely CONSUME everything new that is Star Wars lol from, "The Clone Wars," and, "Rebels," to, "Rogue One," and the, "Resistance series."
If it's Star Wars, I'm there!
Nothing will ever be as good as the original trilogy, so I try not to get my expectations too high or unrealistic. Because that's a recipe for disappointment.
Instead, I just enjoy the ride. And my kids love everything Star Wars, too.
The worst thing about being a Star Wars fan isn't any of the decisions Lucasfilm has made, before or after Disney took over from George Lucas.
It's the cadré, that vocal minority of pissed off, "fans," who spend most of their time talking trash about Kathleen Kennedy, Rian Johnson, and Disney. As if they want to spread their destructive attitude to as many other people in the fandom as possible, so they'll feel more justified with their negativity.
And, it's also the ONE thing that my kids are having to deal with, too. As they try to navigate through their favorite clips on CZcams, or discussions with other fans.
That element of the fandom COULD have just turned to another property, like Marvel, or anything else that didn't piss them off so much lol but instead there are dozens of CZcams channels dedicated to nothing else but spreading as much HATE and vitriol throughout the fandom as possible.
And, that must really suck lol to be them! 😂
Yes. I am that 40 something year old white dude who still loves Star Wars lol but I'll be honest, I don't love EVERY aspect of decision. And if I hated it as much as some Star Wars fans seem to lately lol I'd try being a fan something else, without question.
TL;DR "don't be so negative, mmaaaaaannn. they're negative so i'm in the right."
@@APAL880 actual TL:DR "Don't scream at everyone online because you personally didn't like a movie."
BEEP BOOP, DO NOT QUESTION QUALITY, ONLY COOOONSUUUMMMME
Well pal sorry to tell you this but those guys are just like you. Instead of talking about the toxic fans they want to talk about a movie they think is really bad. It s as simple as that. You don t have to listen to them or talk to them but what can we say....we love to argue. If you want to consume anything they give you....that s fine just don t ask other people to Be ok with it. We are not even STAR WARS FANS.....we love a lot of media like anime, marvel and many other things but it just surprises us how bad they did to star wars and wanna talk about it. So yeah we may still talk shit about star wars but we have moved on to enjoy other media while talking how bad it has gotten...BECAUSE it s fun and the topic keeps on giving apparently.
I have noticed that many people who were kids when the prequels came out actually liked them...
Just saying...
Can confirm!
That doesnt mean they are good movies. It means people see things through nostalgia tinted lenses
@@coalitionofseekers9572 OR, they realize that Lucas was making movies for CHILDREN and young people, not their grown, entitled parents...
@@THEAdmiralXizor I always hear this argument. You know its possible to make a movie for kids that adults enjoy as well. Also I was 13 when Phantom Menace came out and I thought it was terrible.
@@coalitionofseekers9572
"I have noticed that many people who were kids when the prequels came out actually liked them..."
People can have different opinions. No big deal.
Damn coming back to this from a twitter post and Mandalorian season 2 finale, on point
"The characters once again talk like normal people. The protagonists were relatable." specially in the Mandalorian. People giving huge shit to the Sequel trilogy(not as much as the Prequels back in the day) but always feel like an incubation process. The creators listen what work in the beta version, and fix the glitches in the process.
Just wanted to say im really loving the half film half video essay style you got going on here, it's really engaging.
Patrick: "They don't want themes, they want Wookiepedia articles."
Abrams and Terrio: "Jackpot."
Honestly, I have enjoyed every single Star Wars movie in at least some way. I can see negatives in all of them but I tend to prefer to focus on the positives since that is a lot more fun
I'm curious, what do you consider the best and worst parts/moments from each film?
Here's mine:
TPM: Best: The opening is great; Worst: Pod-racing scene, way to long.
AOTC: Kamino is my favorite prequel planet; hate Yoda vs Dooku
RotS: One thing the prequels do is have fantastic openings, love this opening; other than Grevious v Obi, I find the second act so boring.
Solo: Lando and Han interacting; Darth Maul was not needed.
RO: Literally the entire third act; the pacing of the second act is to slow.
ANH: The Trench Run; throughout the film can drag quite a bit(Honorary mention is CGI Jabba)
ESB: Cloud City as a whole;the humor
ROTJ: The Space Battle;the 40 minute opening
TFA: The Lightsaber fight OR the cinematography;C3PO being useless
This is where I piss everyone off.
TLJ: I LOVE Luke's ark, one of my favorite arks in Star Wars; The humor is equal to the prequels
@@AlexStudiosChannel well to me I enjoy podracing but otherwise the tattooiine part drags our.
AOTC: I enjoy obi looking for jango and the arrival of the clones but creepy Anakin flirting is cringy.
ROTS: probably my favourite of them all.
SOLO: starts slow but ends great
RO: Same as solo
ANH: same as you.
ESB: I like a lot
ROTJ: badass luke is great ewoks are bad
TFA: kylo ren was an interesting villain and the first half was fun. Second half was a copy of a new hope.
TLJ: I enjoyed all the Rey, Kylo and luke parts. Everything else was less interesting.
@@AlexStudiosChannel I'll give my two cents
TPM: The opening, probably the best introduction to Star Wars (sorry ANH). The Tattooine section of the movie can tend to drag a little.
AOTC: The ending duel with Obi-Wan and Dooku (I don't mind Yoda fighting with a lightsaber at all but what precedes it is much better) is perfection. The fireplace scene is pretty dodgy.
ROTS: Anakin murdering the Separatists on Mustafar while Palpatine declares the Galactic Empire Godfather style. The "It's only because I'm so in love" scene is honestly worse than anything in AOTC.
Solo: The Kessel Run is just really fun to watch. The movie is far too dark for a Star Wars film and it doesn't even match the tone of the movie.
RO: The Vader scene is alright (there's a lot of weird time jumps and Vader doesn't have nearly as sophisticated choreography as the Jedi do in the prequels when they destroy Droids). Tarkin being an absolute buffoon and making baffling decisions throughout the whole movie.
ANH: The destruction of Alderaan and Tarkin's sheer malice during it is fantastic. The Jawa segment of the movie is the closest I get to being bored throughout 1-6.
ESB: The duel on Cloud City is amazing. C3PO is honestly worse than Jar-Jar here.
ROTJ: The battle over the Sarlacc is utter perfection. The pacing is the worst out of any of the original six and it's completely tone-deaf sometimes.
TFA: Han telling Rey about Mi-the force and the Jedi (it's the one scene where Han hasn't regressed into his ANH self). The comedy is honestly so so so bad.
TLJ: Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. The pacing is ridiculously slow and the characters aren't written well enough to accommodate it.
TROS: The opening with Kylo finding Palpatine. The pacing is awful in the complete opposite way, it's way too fast and the characters aren't written well enough to accommodate it.
You’re probably the biggest Star Wars fan. I personally only like the original trilogy. The rest suck
Your the light in the dark side forest that everyone should follow. Understanding the negatives but focusing and trying to find the positives.
The R1 hallway point is even more accurate now after Mandalorian season 2 finale.
The sad thing is that that episode has a shit ton of good thing better than Lukes cameo, but most fanboys Will say that thats the best part of the episode and the episode would have beeing shit without it, theres More in Star wars or even the mandalorian that you can chew than just fanservise all the Time. In fact that was the main reason i get hooked to beggin with, it finally get rid of the skywalker or jedi drama to finally focus in the More interesting parts of the Galaxy, but screw it Star wars isn't Star wars without the skywalker and the jedi, thats like saying game of thrones isn't game of thrones without the Targaryen or the dragons. In fact focusing in the Targaryens and the dragons was what bring GOT to its downfall, the same shit happens with the skywalker saga and this godawfull skywalker dinasty.
How to fix Star Wars: set it hundreds of years in the future (this way the old charicture feel like legends instead because when we last saw them they were young) then expand on the force
conceptually, this reminds me a lot of lindsay ellis' series on the hobbit
obv this is not a criticism. academics will often converge
but its two angles on how expectation built on our formative experience afects how we receive newer art. id watch these together, maybe
I think there is an important distinction to make between the two franchises: one is an adaption while the other is an original story. So while you cannot technically "know better than the creator" in Star Wars, you can certainly miss the point the original author intended to make with the Hobbit. It is also noteworthy that the Lord of the Rings trilogy was a very good adaptation that was mostly faithful to the books, so it is in the best interest of the author to do the same when adapting the prequel to ensure that the continuity is maintained and that everything in the story has a purpose
the fact that you used FF7 Remake for that "what you expect but shinier" line is hilarious in retrospect for how bad an example that turned out to be xD
13:08 Holy Crap! Patrick H Willems predicted the future!
Yeah, and the same points frankly applies to the scene you are referring to. I really liked the episode, but a lot of fans are literally calling it ''the best moment in Star Wars history'', simply because it's a flashy scene of a certain character being a badass. It adds nothing to this character (not spoiling it if anyone hasn't seen it) that we do not already know. We know he's a badass. It's just a shinier version of it and fans are eating it up and proclaiming that it's better than all the scenes in the sequels and prequels combined.
SPOILER WARMING TO THE FINALE OF MANDALORIAN SEASON TWO
While i respect what this video has to say i have to disagree. I am in me 20s so i really never cared about the expanded universe or ''wookipedia articles'' ,and nevertheless i thought last jedi was a bad movie for the obvious reasons most people think its one ( annoying characters , bad pacing,out of place themes and messages and unlike the original trilogy terrible misfirings of comedy that the movie went out of its way to make ) however for me the biggest reason i can't care about this movie is that it is 2018 and we are still watching the same star wars story told to us in a way to think that it was different . In the end of the movie we are left with the big strong empire controlled by a dark villain and the striving rebelion by a young aspiring hero , so by the end of the movie did it really change anything ? I think if you are to make a stars wars movie 30 years after the original should be something special and have a reason to do it, not make a washed up space adventure with the excuse to sell cute toys because in the end you dont create fans you create contemporary consumers that they wont even remember star wars.
Metalgos Exactly. The Empire-Rebellion thing is exhausting at this point. Even the non-movie material is dominated by it
Metalgos Dude you got me there, im also in my 20's (22 actually) and i couldnt care less for the EU or the canon/non canon thingy mcjigger, I only liked the Star Wars material i had, that were the precuels and original trilogy, and Star Wars Clone Wars (the Gendy Tartakovsky mini series) and The Clone Wars, and all that wookiepedia and EU shit its just annoying to me, TFA was pretty good for me, wasnt the best one, but left some good points, but TLJ just feel like not surprising or empty, it took a lot of points from ESB and some from ROTJ and put some filler on it (and it wasnt as good as the one they put on twinkies) it had some nice elements and i think this saga its not doomed, but this movie could just be better if they just continued the points from the first one, Finn's caracter arc as well as Poe with i have a major issue despite been the only one that had one its pretty childish and looked like it wasnt deep at all, the best of the movie was Kylo and Rey, and even they could had more interesting direccions to go
Aside from the 11 minutes spend on Canto Bight, what doesn't fit with Star Wars thematically?
"annoying characters" is something I just don't agree on and I think you should elobare on for it to make sense. Misfired humour is certainly there, but it's only a little.
I also think I could come up with a better argument for why the movie would be bad than most people who actually dislike it.
Look man sure if for you the characters and the themes ( aside from canto bight ) worked that's really fine and i am happy for you liking the movie ( i am not beind sarcastic ) , however i am really not interested in elaboarating more on my opinions on a youtube comment section just like you just claiming that you can make a better argument from the "people that dislike the movie ".
+Metalgos
Why even bring something up if you're unwilling to discuss it.
You also talk about the "obvious reasons most people think it's bad", and you mention themes, which made me think you must be smarter than most people who are talking about their dislike as themes is something that actually matters in Star Wars and not logic.
I think you are partly correct, but I feel you’re disregarding legitimate gripes with some elements.
Leia used the force in the EU and no one cared, they cared when it was done poorly like in TLJ.
People disliked Rose and Finn’s story because it felt pointless to the story, especially when Rose ‘took’ Finn’s sacrifice from him in one of the dumbest sequences ever.
Also I feel like a creator should show the people who have supported the franchise some kind of validation for their support, rather than “take” it from them, if you can call it that.
I thought the Last Jedi was alright, I liked what they did with Luke, Rey and Kylo, but understand why it annoys some people.
Rasengan That was disappointing. I was expecting a little more nuance and understanding from him. He seems to really respect his audience. He did all this build up to push over a few strawmen instead of tackling the deeper and more valid arguments that I figured he could debate against better than most. This was just his side of the fanboy extreme.
Rasengan everything was point less in last jedi what is the arc of ray, klyo, finn etc. Their way to many subplots like purple hair lady and poe was pointless. It was just drama for the sale of drama, and she could tell the plan to poe. Last jedi didn't even try to connect with force awakens because it shows hints that finn maybe a force sensitive user. Some humor is force and editing at times is choppy or could take some scenes out.
How was leia's force use "done poorly"?
Joshua Oberholtzer it looked terrible, completely took many people out of the movie and raised way too many questions. Eg. Why wasn’t she killed in the explosion, why did she unfreeze, how can she breathe in space, how can she fly back to the space ship, how’d she get back on, when did she learn this and why did we get no indication if it in 7 or prior to this moment.
Really? I thought the stark lighting looked great. And it wasn't an explosion, it was explosive decompression. It's also funny how you seem ok with force users moving objects but not themselves. It is possible to survive in space for 20-30 seconds and I'm willing to believe that if the force can protect you from blasters it can protect you from the vacuum of space. Leia is equivalent to Luke in natural force talent and has had decades of relying on the force's guidance. In short, that scene is really no more absurd than most force feats.
For my is what episode III give us
-Different planets with their own civilization
- Light saber duels
- Character development across the triology
- A menacing villain
-Galactic armies with their own unique armour, vehicules, weapons..
-Some politics to understand "the war" abd the state of the galaxy.
Plus ALL the memes and 2 figurative brothers dueling to the death *inside a volcano*
Who's the menacing villain?
Bertrand D darth sidious
Where's the character development? (Edit) oh across the trilogy. Eh idk if the characters change all that much actually.
Sam which character are u talking about
I love your academic yet entertaining way of putting your point across mate.
But sith was the best of the prequels I though, and clones is the worst Star Wars movie, just my opinion
Before watching this video I didn't know it was possible to have any other opinion.
I can see how one would prefer TPM over the other prequels, though. TPM is less the 1st installment of a trilogy and more like an overture, featuring characters we don't really get to connect to (or worse, in the case of Jar Jar), which creates the problem of AOTC become a reunion of sorts as well as the true beginning of the prequels...with the characters we barely got to connect with and now we have to catch up with (via the 2nd of 3 wooden and awkward scripts). Also, the problem peculiar to AOTC and ROTS is that they bookend the Clone War. They thus deny us the meat of the war, which we get in 2 solid animated shows (the former of which is no longer canon and the latter of which kicked-off with a lackluster theatrical feature) most viewers probably won't stick wth from start to finish. In terms of standing alone, TPM does that the most, even if ROTS is the consensus "best" of the prequels.
God I wish Rian Johnson did episode 9. JJ did a good job opening up this trilogy, but he never should have been in charge of closing it.
JJ Abrams just shouldn’t be allowed to end trilogies in general. He didn’t direct Star Trek Beyond and it ended up being far and away the best of the reboot Trek films, which is a lesson Star Wars probably should’ve taken to heart.
Then again, nobody else who’s published anything on the matter seems to have any good ideas for Episode 9 either. Maybe it was just doomed to be awful in every timeline.
@@a.morphous66 I still think Colin Trevorrow's script would have been the better outcome. There's a lot of parts I don't love--specifically the lack of Kylo Ren in the story--but even if it was a worse-made film, I still think it would have been more desirable from a thematic standpoint. It feels like a natural progression from the previous two films, and resolves Finn's character arc of fighting for someone (7), fighting for something (8), and teaching others how to do it in order to bring down the First Order from within (9). A stormtrooper rebellion just sounds so cool, even if the film itself would've been a bit of a mess.
This video should be part of the grieving process for people still dealing with Episode IX.
It sort of is. Though as someone who was won over by VII and then adored VIII, I feel like us newbie fans have to just accept that we were the equivalent of a rebound shag, and Star Wars wasn't over its ex as we hoped.
Ep 9 was still better than the Last Jedi.
@@KentKaliber Not in the slightest
@@gannonhunt4284 They both suck.
@@qmulus1 I think Episode 8 is pretty good.
7 is alright.
9 is annoying.
It's so interesting how different we are, the prequels captured everything I wanted from Star Wars. I just wanted to imagine what it would be like to live in the Star Wars world and imagine cities built with the technology and how they would train Jedi. It's what I often think about after a movie like it end when the heroes have won and it is a prequel, but it's the same idea of having the heroes in power and control.
I totally agree . The sequels should have been about Luke trying to prevent what happened in the Sequel trilogy, so to speak
The ideas of the prequels weren't bad: showing the higher state of technology and civilization of an earlier era is a solid idea. But George Lucas did a bad job writing and directing them, so they suck. He should have let someone else make the actual films.
"It's can't just feed us nostalgia." This quote rings so true in light of what JJ did to episode IX. That movie is literally a Wookie-pedia article.
If that is the case, Wookie-pedia has some serious housecleaning to do.
Many people in the comments already pointed it out but the most common criticism of the movie is lack of consistency. Rian Johnson is the kind of filmmaker that prioritizes individual moments over overarching story. And as a result you got a movie that is not consistent with its immediate predecessor, the original trilogy or even itself at times. Things happen because plot needs them to happen, characters flip flop on a whim and nothing feels organic and natural. Looper, Johnson’s previous movie, shares a lot of similar problems.
Yes thank you! Someone else needed to say this! He did the same thing with Breaking Bad. I loved The Fly episode, but it was a dramatic change of pace. As I said in previous comments, TLJ would be a fine TV episode, it's painful to watch in theaters.
What is the merit and purpose of the casino scene in TLJ? I really don't see it. Since you rank it very highly you surely have to enjoy that chunk of it, but why?
Klemensas Kozlovas but it never made Finn doubt about the resistance even a bit doesn't it? In fact Finn was willing to gave up his life for the resistance without a hint of hesitation in Krayt.
And it doesn't help pacing the movie at all, heck it halts the pace of the movie into a grinding halt!
Klemensas Kozlovas when the motivation of the scene is in the opposite direction of the main plot, then no, it doesn't help the pacing of the movie, it destroys it completely.
And by what you are saying, that even corroborate my views that DJ's revelation does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to Finn's dedication to the Resistance.
It was allll worth it...because Rose said so...lmao
Klemensas Kozlovas I don't mean to be mean, but please learn to structure your sentences better, it's confusing trying to read your post.
But let's get back to the argument, Finn and Rose is not just failing, they are ACTIVELY FORGETTING what they are doing! Their attention was quickly side tracked to do other stuffs when THEIR FRIENDS ARE RUNNING FOR THEIR LIVES AT THE TIME BEING. The motivation quickly go against the main plot and it stops the pacing of the chase sequence into a screeching halt because the whole Canto Bight scene DIMINISHED THE SENSE OF URGENCY for the rest of the resistance, you don't feel these two need to be hurried anymore when we cut from the chase sequence to the Canto Bight scene.
From the stupidity of parking their ship at a public space, to playing with the horses, these two doesn't even seemed to remember what their objectives was!
Now from a plot stand point, it doesn't even propel the plot! As anything the character DJ does are all pointless, he didn't make Finn question the "binary moral", he doesn't change the dynamic of the chase, he did not do anything at all... The prize of the Canto Bight sequence is basically nothing.
So to recap,
1. Stops the pacing into a screeching halt
2. The reward is pointless to the plot.
Klemensas Kozlovas picky? Your entire premise of the Canto Bight sequence is that it helps the pacing of the movie, spoiler alert, IT DOESN'T!
The giant WORM sequence ESB, was a direct continuation of a running away sequence, while here the Canto Bight sequence is a parallel plot that is running in conjunction to the main plot.
There's a huge difference there.
I'm starting to believe you don't even know what good pacing in a movie is...
when you're right, YOU'RE RIIGHT
I loved ROTS for all the palpatine scenes, his story of Plagueis, and the whole movie just pulling anakin towards the dark side. I loved the settings, the tension, all the lightsaber duels. My favorites are Sith and return of the jedi, I like the epic ending chapters
Same!
I am one of those people who would say "TLJ is a good movie but not a good Star Wars movie" and I should clarify what I think that statement means: TLJ is episode 8 of the Star Wars series. Notice the word "episode" because this is important.
Star Wars is like the movie version of a TV series. A good TV series would have episode N+1 build off of episode N. If the characters are a certain way in episode N, they would progress in a logical fashion in episode N+1.
TLJ is a good episode, in isolation. It does not logically progress the story from episode 7 or episode 6. Luke's behavior in 8 is inconsistent with the portrayal in 6. Rey's backstory "explanation" in 8 does not fit well with the flashbacks in 7. The physics of the suicide run is inconsistent with the setup of all the previous movies!
It's like the director directed the best freaking episode of Game of Thrones but then forgot that he was actually directing an episode of Spartacus. So, while it would've been the best episode ever had it been for a different series, considering that it is some other series, not a good episode.
Ju Li - Did you really expect Luke to be the exact same person after 30 years?
GameStation3 imagine if Han Solo in TFA sold Chewbacca for money and abandoned the Millennium Falcon to go and live on an island. Would you say “oh, he’s just changed in 30 years”.
You could say Luke Skywalker changed dramatically due to Kylo’s turn, but Kylo is Han Solo and Leia’s SON, and Han and Leia remained true to their OT personality and characterization.
Luke? He’s a totally different character in TLJ.
Luke wasn't out of character in TLJ. Let's think about it for a bit. Luke’s defining character traits from the OT were:
1. Whiny
2. Bratty
3. Naive
4. Full of rage
5. Love of his friends
By the end of the OT, as his innocence was crushed by the real galaxy and the fact that his #1 nemesis was also his father…he remained with his hopeful naivete that he could change his father back to the light side. He turned out to be right, but only after overcoming an internal battle within himself.
He jumped off to help his friends at every opportunity. He left Yoda’s training early and was berated by a ghost on his way out to go help Leia and Han.
Let’s pause for a moment and examine Luke’s life to date. In the movies we saw, he didn’t really have any friends until Han and Leia, just his Aunt and Uncle. In deleted scenes, it shows that he was friends with Biggs back at home.
By the end of the first movie, everyone he knew in his old life was now dead. His closest friends were now Han and Leia (and Chewbacca).
Luke spent the beginning of Return of the Jedi overstating his force abilities and going out on a crack-pot plan to save Han while putting everyone at risk. He then ran off to turn himself in (essentially giving away the fact that there were rebels on the planet…even though you just met your dad, do you really think he’s that stupid?)
After the wars, Han and Leia got married and spawned.
Luke started a Jedi training school.
Ben Solo was promising as a Jedi, Luke trained him, but failed to recognize him falling to the dark side. It was too late by the time he did.
Ben was Kylo now…far beyond where Vader was. Luke didn’t want to kill him, he instinctively went for his lightsaber…just like he did against Ghost Vader on Dagobah. Just like he did against Vader and Palpatine.
Just like he did against Vader, he stopped himself before he actually did anything…but it was too late. Kylo saw it and tore things up.
Luke had failed. He had completely ruptured his foundation. He failed his sister and his best friend. He thought he’d created an absolute monster, someone who went through and killed hundreds of promising Jedi before running off to kill billions more.
He ran off to atone. To figure out where he went wrong.
He realized that it was him buying into his own legend that was the issue. He took on the worst parts of Yoda and Obi-wan’s training. He felt he had to completely understand the Jedi, and once he did, he felt like it wasn’t worth keeping the Jedi around. From the failures of the Jedi in the prequels to now, he realized that idiotic, legend slurping hubris was the problem. So it was over.
He had beaten himself down.
It makes sense to me.
It took the new blood of Rey to eventually make him realize that he was wrong about the Jedi. Well, he was right, but the history of the Jedi doesn’t make the future of the organization wrong. He was the new hope, he delivered, but he lost his way. Rey helped him back, just like he helped his father, but just a little late.
+Ivan Ortega's Hair LOLOLOL!!!! your screen name!
My mixed feelings about The Last Jedi are more to do with the new trilogy being more of a reboot than I was hoping for.
I was hoping for more of a sequel trilogy that would have dealt with what came next after Return of the Jedi. Instead The Force Awakens gives us a new chosen one(nobody important) a new empire (unexplained) a new dark lord (somewhat contradicting the previous two trilogies). The Last Jedi skirts these issues then clears the table making it a frustrating experience.
Well said
The long gap was a knightmare. I didn't have a VCR. Had to wait till Xmas when one of the 4 TV channels 'might' show 1 of the OT. Struggled to find the books.
Todays whiney SW fans don't know how good they have it.
How good they have it? With what having to constantly watch the OT if we want to see good Star Wars? Watch the prequels if we want to see passable but still subpar Star Wars, or watch the sequels if we want to see how you ruin Star Wars?
Strangely the long gap was because George wanted a better toy deal so he had to wait for the licensing deal with Kenner to expire.
I’m watching this as post-TROS therapy. I loved TLJ, and I haven’t been able to stop thinking about 9 and how soul crushing it was for me in the theater.
Big same. It's still so unbelievable to me that people hate such an impressive piece of cinema. I've always _enjoyed_ Star Wars, but TLJ made me a superfan. I actively sought out additional material, and I boned up on the EU lore. TROS, on the other hand, feels like a betrayal of everything that came before. I'm beginning to wonder if I'm just a fan of Johnson's cinematic vision (I've loved everything he's touched) more so than a general Star Wars nerd.
The Last Jedi was soul-crushing for me in the Theater b/c it was a betrayal. I loved that JJ un-did that entire Dumpster Fire LOL
@@thewhatness I feel like I'm in that boat - not least because IX put a huge hole in my fondness for VII. What are your views on the other films, out of curiosity? I was a longtime Star Wars sceptic - respect the OT but only really love Empire and I still despise the prequels - so I felt like VIII was Johnson not just considering what would make a good story anyway, but wanting to give the new fans a Star Wars to call their own.
So Rey actually properly becomes the protagonist, Finn goes through a struggle of learning to believe in and fight for something bigger than himself which I don't think we'd had before in SW, at least not to the same degree. And Kylo steps out of the shadow of his influences to cement himself as a different breed of villain. And then that all went down the chute.
@@KentKaliber Ep 9 is by far the worst Disney star wars
@@gannonhunt4284 No it wasn't. TLJ was garbage that didn't even look, feel, or sound like Star Wars. That wasn't Luke Skywalker LOL, even Mark Hamill agrees.
I had no set of demands for the last jedi, I just found it tonally inconsistent and meandering at times.
Robert Jacques I love seeing plebs use words like “inconsistent” and “meandering” about pretty much objectively great movies lollll
soo why did Rose, one of the Resistance's few hopes, embarked in a dangerous mision which ultimately fails, and when her partner becomes the last resource for the resistance and ultimately the entire galaxy to be saved (her sister *died* for it), out of nowhere decides to ruin that just to have a kiss, meanwhile the last fraction of what she was trying to protect gets blown up behind her?
I repeat, she was almost 3/4 from the movie trying to save the galaxy. Or was it because it's very important for us, the regularl viewer, to learn about capitalism and veganism?
People are not perfect, I believe she did it because her love for Finn was stronger than her want for the Resistance to succed/survive.
Jokke The Dank Pheonix no no man, don’t argue. These people are convinced the movie “meanders” and “is bad” lmfao
I think he means inconsistent as in Finn not being able to pilot in TFA, going under a coma, waking up, and all of a sudden he's piloting 2 ships. That's one example.
"I often think about how lucky we all were that the best stuff came out when we were the most impressionable."
This applies to everyone no matter when they were born or when they were most impressionable. Human brains are wired to have fond memories of the experiences they consume between certain impressionable ages. This is why I like cartoons from the 80s and are less interested in the 90s, but my younger friends like 90s cartoons and are less interested in the 80s.
So, Pablo Hidalgo's generation is no more lucky than any other one in this sense.
That is the whole point of his tweet, right? He is not trying to actually argue that he is lucky, he is commenting on the fact that everyone perceives the stuff from their childhood as the best. He is saying that new content (no matter how good) will NEVER make you feel the way you did as a child. No one will ever love something in the same, obsessive, blind to flaws, way that we look back on things from our childhood.
TL;DR His tweet has a heavy coating of sarcasm.
@@abrahameifert6799 Poor Pablo Hidalgo can't catch a break from being misunderstood by Star Wars fans.
God that comment about Vader scene was spot on given how people literally react toward mandolorian finale
You know what I miss from the old movies? The joy. At the end of Episode IV and VI everybody fell around each other's necks and they had their happy ending. Including the bad guy (!) I so hope the sequel trilogy will end well at last.There was a celebration at the end of Episode I, too, but we didn't really care about the characters so we couldn't be happy for them. But that was the point of the prequels: showing the weaknesses of the people who at the time before the Empire would have had the power to save things. Depicting the characters as relatable for 3 movies and then killing everybody off would have been even more dissatisfying. The world we see there is stiff and antiquated and cold because it's a decadent, stagnating society that will allow no new influences and is thus on the verge of being destroyed.And that the beginning of Episode VI is not about rescuing Han but about learning how a true Jedi operates. Luke gives Jabba and his minions every chance to free Han without violence and fights back only at the very last moment in defense. It's not boring or stupid but deeply philosophical.
I love this thesis. Also, I realized that SW is just like the “Sonic the Hedgehog” series.
Including the part where it was eventually turned into a self-referencing, self-depreciating parody of itself by its creators.
Revenge of the Sith at no. 9?!?!?!
*I HATE YOU!!*
Trevor Rogers you supposed to bring balance to the force not leave it in darkness
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Learn to respect opinions
That kind of attitude is what drove me away from Star Wars.
@@Devilsblood you do know that it was a joke right
My heart hurt when I saw revenge of the Sith last.
I see a lot of problems in the prequels, but them looking and feeling different than the original trilogy is not one of them in my opinion. To me that´s a positive thing, more variety, new ideas. I don´t want the next 100 Star Wars movies we are going to get in the future to look and feel like the OT, that would be insanely boring.
You damaged them! You can’t put VHS tapes in sand! It's corse, irritating, and it gets everywhere!
The Last Jedi is my favorite! I know people hate that but it’s true!! I’ve been into SW since 1977 and I’ve enjoyed it all. But the Luke story in TLJ is just so relatable to me that even my daughter told me that Luke reminded her of me. That’s why I love SW the characters have been with me my whole life.
You tried to kill your nephew because of a scary dream???
@@konsama1315 No, not because of a dream. This is the problem with confirmation bias. When we don’t like something instead of attempting to understand how characters are written we simply reject what we see and oversimplify the scene. Luke knew that the dark side of the force was growing in his nephew. Luke had dealt with enough of what a potential dark side using Skywalker could do. This was not simply a bad dream by a young force user. This was a potential dark side uprising. How do we the audience know this? By the fact that Luke’s imperfect reaction to his nephew’s struggle with temptation. Was Luke’s judgment clouded? Yes, with no other more experienced Jedi to assist him he did not handle the situation well. Ben then killed all the other students and joined the dark side, so Luke wasn’t actually wrong about the kid, just in how he handled the situation. The broader issue here is this: Luke was not written from the perspective of a young man anymore that younger fans could relate to. As an older man who has raised rebellious teens and young adults I totally get where Luke was coming from. If Ben turned into a psychopath because Luke pulled a lightsaber on him during a dream obviously there was more going on than bad mentorship and teen angst.
@@mykilahsenwilliamsdorsey1495 Luke’s father was the second most evil person in the galaxy, who killed killed countless people, and committed horrible atrocities, and he refused to end his life because he still saw good in him, and all it took Luke to attempt to end kylos life was a dream
@@konsama1315 No my friend you have missed the whole point. 20 year old Luke wanted more than anything to make the galaxy right again if he could just get his father to turn good again. That’s the way 20 year olds who need fathers actually think. I know I’ve been 20. 50 year old men do not think like this, they have been through and seen too much to be that idealistic anymore. That doesn’t mean they no longer have hope. They just have more wisdom. With the rise of the New Order and the dark side Luke sensed that bad things were happening. Young Luke believed that if he could get Darth Vader to return to the Jedi all his problems would go away. They did not . He also thought that if he could just get his father to return to the light that the galaxy would follow. Life just isn’t that simple no matter how much we want it to be that way. He explains this in the movie. He became a legend but that was not enough. This is why I say that this story is where Star Wars actually becomes for grown ups. This story was written for the people who where kids back in 1977 and are late middle age now, just like Luke is in this story. Young people expected Luke to be a bad ass throwing his weight around in the galaxy for the good. In the end he did just that. Projecting himself across the galaxy to save the last of the resistance was the definition of bad ass!
I will say, I am not a Star Wars fan, but I am impressed how you manage to play diplomat for the Star Wars fandom; poking holes at the irony of fans expectations yet respectful of their love for the universe.
I just thought it was poorly paced with a confused tone and crap dialogue and the finn Rose relationship felt tacked on as an afterthought with no build up
The problem with the Last Jedi was that the director took every major plot point, and went to the opposite direction... regardless if it made sense or not. The entire casino arc was pointless, its only purpose was to give Finn something to do, since it seems they didn't plan this through.
After watching TFA again, you can tell that J.J. Abrahams had a plan, but then the new director took over and changed everything to leave his marc.
I think for a significant porion of the "fandom menace", the primary story development for Star Wars has been happening in Expanded Universe novels since the 90's.
George Lucas let his creation slip from his grasp, most likely because he can envision the scope of it while at the same time utterly fail at executing the minutiae of his world in a proper screenplay.
The irony is that George Lucas doesn't acknowledge any of the EU material himself as he has stated multiple times. According to him, the only SW content that matters are the movies and the clone wars show.
Mandatory rewatch before the "final" one.
No offense, but this video is basically just your typical Last Jedi defender dismissing out of hand people's complaints with the movie "you just didn't like it cos you didn't get what you wanted".
The only thing I "wanted" going into TLJ was a good movie.....which imo TLJ isn't for a whole host of reasons.
12:20 What's wrong with not liking Luke's characterization becasue it wasn't where he was 30 years ago? We followed his journey, development and characterization for 3 movies. Then in TLJ he's completely different and the only "explanation" we get as to how he got this way is a few seconds worth of flashbacks. I'm sorry but that's objectively bad storytelling. If you want to change a well known character so dramatically then you have to EARN it. As a film maker it's your job to convince people that it makes sense that the character we know could change this much. You can't just give some lazy, halfhearted explanation and then complain that people didn't like it just becasue he wasn't the way we wanted him to be.
JJ, Rian and the people in charge at Disney have literally talked about how they had to come up with a reason for Luke to be out of the way becasue every time they didn't he took over the story. That is not good storytelling. That's letting the story you want to tell dictate how your characters will act.
That's essentially the fundamental problem that I and many have with TLJ (and the entire Disney era) so much of it is just cheap, lazy writing. I don't see any of this EXCITING NEW DIRECTION that you defenders talk about. What exactly was new in TLJ? Essentially all the entire squeal trilogy has done so far is undo the original trilogy in order to give the future movies a more blank canvas to work with. It retroactively ruins the entire original trilogy and makes the characters journey's and development there meaningless.
All done just so Disney can have their new, young characters (with actors they can pay significantly less and have around for MANY years) be the REAL heroes. They're literally just going to fill the roles that the OT characters did. It's cheap and lazy storytelling at it's finest.
I'm honestly incredibly disappointed that you're clearly letting your own fanboy love of the movie stop you from seeing the flaws it has. You sound just like the rabid Snyder BvS defenders "it was totally explained why Batman is now a reckless killer, you just don't like it cos it's not what you wanted. Zack Snyder subverted out expectations so that makes it a great movie". You're giving TLJ a pass for the exact same things you (rightl;y) criticize stuff like BvS for.
Yang the Magician
Subjective opinions are subjective
Dismissive comments are dismissive.
Or.. we just want good writing.
eh...I'm pretty sure they can do better than turtle barely outrunning snail for the main conflict.
100%
Justin Sabatini - Hahahaha not even close. We could talk all day about the plot holes, illogical character arcs, lazy writing, and horrible plot line. Would you like to?
I've seen a few of Justine's replies to other comments, I'm pretty sure he's trying to rile people up.
whoops, typo.
We go on about how a lot of studio films need to have more creative voices, taking more risks instad of recycling past stories but someone like Rian Johnson brings his fresh vision to something like Star Wars, new concepts while continuing the larger story, and we trash everything he brought to the mythos. I could go on. We even trashed the original creator of Star Wars for all the new additions he brought to his own universe. Don't even get me started on Josstice League.
This is without a doubt the best analysis of why Star Wars "fans" will never be pleased by the new Disney films. I feel like all of these thoughts have gone through my head but I've never been able to articulate them as clearly and perfectly as you have here. Well done.
So, I'm no passionate Star Wars fan, or even really a fan, I've watched them all once, some twice, never read any Star Wars books.
I generally don't have any strong opinions about any of the movies, except The Last Jedi, which I hated.
Why?
1. **The dissonance between tension and humor.** A lot of scenes build up tension and then break it with an artificial and unfitting joke. For me this is precisely what I feared Disney to do. After maybe half an hour into the movie, I was just observing, no longer willing to invest into any tension, which would only be ruined by a cheap joke.
2. **The nonsense.** There were a lot of minor and major plot points, which were just nonsense (by in-Universe logic, of course), only there to steer the plot in a desired direction, to kill a character, to create tension, etc.
Garbaz That was one of my biggest problems with this movie. They were SO focused on subverting EVERY expectation that they forgot to make a compelling sequel. It was impossible to stay invested. Every scene was a poorly executed mini M. Night Shymalan movie.
I don't think they were focused at all... everything was stretched unnecessarily long. I did not have the feeling the movie tried to anticipate any expectations specifically. Instead it just went on and on and the subversion happened simply because when you take this incestious circle of characters and watch them long enough it must happen based on mathematical probability.
You're so goddamn right. I like Star Wars and I can even enjoy the prequels for what they are. I thought TLJ was a good star wars (whatever it means), but some aspects of the movie itself (the structure, the stuff you said) made it not so fun to watch.
Good video, people need to chill out and realise that their enormous expectations heavily change the way the see the new movies. Just thought TLJ could have been better written.
such strong emotions for something you're not passionate about.
Garbaz
I very much agree. The Last Jedi has so many unnecessary scenes, inconsequential plot points and it did so drastically reduce potentially interesting storylines into a shrug that I can't honestly guess how they are going to make a final sequel work at all. As it stands, I think TLJ would make more sense as a disappointing conclusion to the whole franchise (with a substandard, open cliffhanger) than as the build-up to a final. There is no more conflict, no (interesting) characters, no plot threads that need to be finished.
This is so sad. So much apology to defend a poorly executed movie series failing to evolve after the first 2 entries.
I too think that TLJ is the best of the sequel trilogy
Thank you! You have put into words what I've been thinking but unable to express.
Really loving the new video essay style!
About your point at 7:11...the OT is about a destroyed, lived in universe, yes. But that universe at some point (in the prequel era) was shiny and new. So it makes sense to make the prequels bright, vibrant and full of life that was said to be dead because it sets up for all of that to be destroyed.
Watching this video is like watching a football player run across the field straight towards the goal, only for him to trip, fall to the floor and self combust.
Loving the format of your channel and your insights keep it up
I didn't like the Last Jedi but for none of the reasons you listed, I also didn't like Rogue One. The reasons for both were primarily story based. Rogue One the story, though has lots of things that happen, doesn't develop it's characters well, and The Last Jedi despite the strong Rey/Kylo arc the rest of the elements of the film fall flat and conflict with it's own internal logic. For example, Finn and Rose. I like new characters, and I think Finn in The Force Awakens was interesting and charismatic. My problem is their whole sub plot is pointless and ultimately detrimental to the Resistance, and how that all ties in with Poe's arc. Another aspect is Luke, I don't mind he thought about killing Kylo, I like that, it's more that his powers at the end are confusing and he reveals that he is not actually there so he can't be killed then dies anyway, it would have made more sense to show his ruse and be safe for the next film or die on the planet at Kylo's hand. The reveal ends up being pointless since he died anyway. Not to mention how that whole power works is confusing, not from a nerdy canon standpoint but from the movie's logic. Like so is it a hologram in someone's mind or is it an actual illusion?
Bradford Jones
So, I only really have an answer for the Luke question. He was astral projecting, something the movie set up with Rey and Kylo's Force bond. Luke projected his image to Crait to give the Resistance long enough to get away, but the amount of energy it took killed him (possibly from the distance involved, or the fact that he had cut himself off from the Force for several decades).
But that's just it. At no time has there been an indication on a limit to the force energy someone can use. Yoda didn't shorten his life when he lifted Luke's X-Wing. He died because of extreme old age. Obi-Wan was struck down by Darth Vader. The power someone has in the force is directly related to how "in tune" and individual is, not by how much "energy" it takes. But the bigger problem for me was the narrative one. Why the ruse to trick Kylo and protect himself only to die seconds later? Why not have Luke be there use the force to stall and then sacrifice himself Obi Wan style, OR do the projection thing, trick Kylo, and then live to fight another day? It's a big reveal that he is merely a projection, but it doesn't matter because Luke dies anyway. While unexpected it doesn't serve the story to have him show up as a projection, reveal the twist and then he's dead. It's a bit like if you had a spy thriller where someone is revealed to be a double agent but then still helps the good guys. While a surprise, it doesn't help the story. The ruse literally doesn't matter because the character still does what they have been doing the whole time and the narrative proceeds as it would have. In The Last Jedi, Luke still dies the surprise is only that he's not there but if he was or wasn't is inconsequential. The fact that he is not there is only for the audience to feel surprised. Kylo while frustrated, couldn't possibly know that Luke died so for him he's just as frustrated with Luke as before. And as far as the Resistance goes, if he had been killed on the planet at that moment they still would have escaped. Him not being there but dying anyway doesn't serve anything.
"My problem is their whole sub plot is pointless and ultimately detrimental to the Resistance, and how that all ties in with Poe's arc"
Yes. That is the point. You need to fail in order to grow. All the arcs have some element of failure to them, and while some may narrowly dismiss that as "bad storytelling", it's very deliberate on Johnson's part.
"The reveal ends up being pointless since he died anyway"
The whole point of Luke force projecting is it's a feat we haven't seen up to this point in the Star Wars universe; it's so mind boggling and in line of characterization for a Jedi. He proves that he will never harm Kylo by doing this. If he had shown up in person, he would've been blown apart by the walkers.
" it would have made more sense to show his ruse and be safe for the next film or die on the planet at Kylo's hand"
Again, he would have been blown apart by the walkers. Basically everyone in the galaxy will think Luke is some sort of God after this. No one necessarily knows that he is dead. Pretty much gonna go down as the most powerful Force user in the galaxy. Dying at Kylo's hand would essentially be a retread of the Han Solo death and make Luke look less powerful as a Force user and less tenacious as a thinker. From the suggestions in Hamill's acting to the score and the script, it's obviously implied that doing such a bold feat would take a massive toll mentally and physically on whoever attempts it. Dude's red and sweating when he does it! This is a pedantic point, but he's less "dying" and more becoming one with the force - the binary sunset reflecting his fulfilled aspirations to get off Tattooine, and the peace he's made with the past and his own personal failings.
I accept Star Wars trying to grow in new directions. They still need to give us a reason to like the new protagonists and antagonists.
DanceGameGuy I argue if SWs truly wanted to go in a new direction; they wouldn't have bothered introducing the Original Trilogy characters once more and do their own thing, like The Old Republic or Knights of the Old Republic. But with Mark Hamill, Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher all alive at the time; of course fans would want to see them.
My biggest issue with these new films is the postmodernist atitude it has, along with the lack of consistency. Strip away everything that we know from the OT and why are they so memorable? They were mythology in space: king arthur specifically. They had simple, but profound themes. Growing up, adulthood, being a good person etc. They never felt the need to pander or do anything like that.
The Sequel Trilogy, I argue has none of that. Even as its own thing, thematically it goes from history repeats itself to let's erase and remake the past. Why? If this was say in a trilogy, sure; I can accept that. But it isn't. It's a sign of a lack of planning; of Rian Johnson saying I want to do my own movie. And while I respect creator's vision; if it is at the expense of consistency I really don't care.
People can enjoy The Last Jedi but for me I'm fine without it. The Sequel trilogy is a alternative timeline, a what if. The OT and the PT, along with Legends is all I need. My love of SWs carries through those. And not these new films, outside Rogue One.
DanceGameGuy Rey is honestly boring Af and I don't give two shits about emo hood guy.
Neil the movie's theme is not that the past should die
the characters who say that are Kylo and Luke, and they're both wrong in the story
Kylo says he wants to erase the past, but it's obvious he's obsessed with the past and can't let it go, and his attempts to erase it lead to his most monstrous moments
Luke says the past is garbage and not worth preserving, but in the end he comes back and uses his status as an icon to save the day
the end of the movie shows some kids reenacting the past and finding it inspirational
the point of the movie is not that the past should die or be forgotten
dylan helsing kylo Ren has a personality...while Vader is a boring hamlet wannabe
Star Wars has always been postmodernist. Intertextuality and subjectivity have always been part of SW since day one. It is however true that TLJ seems to be postmodern on steroids and even existential. And I love it.
Great analysis of Star wars.
Where I got a little hung up is at 11:58. I feel it is less about not connecting with Starwars of old, and more about delivery. They relied to much of suspension of disbelief, rather than showing us why we should believe it. It is taking the practice sequences out of any movie.
i really like how you talk abut this stuff. i watch a lot of toy and movie reviews and i greatly appreciate that you insist on framing what you say through an appropriate lens.
I don't fit in with your image of fanboy critics. I was never into the expanded universe and a lot of it sounds stupid from what I've heard. The Darth Vader hallway scene was cool, but was essentially empty like Patrick says. I didn't even like Rogue One. I didn't endlessly speculate on what was going to happen because I find it useless when the films are going to end up doing whatever anyways. I'll express what I hope to see, but it's not a demand. Even still, I didn't like The Last Jedi. I liked where TLJ went with Luke, I just don't like the inciting event that led to it. I didn't like the boring space chase. I didn't like Canto Bight not because it had two new characters and a new place but because it felt out of place. I felt that the tension between Poe and Holdo was forced. I thought Rose was boring and the decision to have her sacrifice to stop Finn's sacrifice was dumb given the circumstances.
I just didn't like the film
Hot damn thank you for knowing or at least taking the time to look up her name. So many comments here and elsewhere that I agree with, that I wouldn’t have had to cringe at, if the person didn’t list every other character’s name, get to Rose, and call her “the Asian chick” or “what’s her name.”
I’m in the same boat as you btw, not a fangirl, still didn’t like the movie. I saw TLJ at least twice, but I couldn’t tell you what it was about.
I felt like I liked TLJ when viewing it in the cinema for the first time, but a day later it had left a sour taste in my mouth, I thinked about it and realised it had alot of flaws, after the hype of hearing the star wars theme and seeing the cool effects and what not had died down, I felt more disappointed with it
Holy crap, you're one of the only people I've heard who (like me) thinks Phantom Menace is the best prequel. It feels to me like the movie George Lucas was actually excited about and wanted to make, before everyone yelled at him for ruining everything and he gritted his teeth and gave us two more half-assed prequels, mostly shot on a sound stage so he could have air conditioning while he drank coffee and mumbled "faster and more intense".
Rewatching this almost a year later and just noticed the original trilogy vhs boxset sitting by the tv. Nice touch. I had that set as a kid!
As someone who really liked the Last Jedi, I've been thinking about the backlash a lot. At this point I'm starting to find both sides of the Star Wars fandom are near-insufferable.
While i disagree with almost all of the complaints and criticisms of The Last Jedi, I do understand why people dislike it. That's their opinion and it's perfectly acceptable. But unfortunately the trolls who keep going on about how TLJ/Rian Johnson/Kathleen Kennedy ruined their childhood are far more vocal, seemingly refusing to accept any of the movie's positive aspects.
But by the same accord, TLJ defenders have a tendency to just dismiss anyone who dislikes the movie as whiny children who haven't grown up, ignoring legit complaints about the movie's pacing/humour/story etc. These overzealous people are every bit as annoying as the haters.
It's unfortunate that there's so little middle ground. It's fine to point out flaws, but it's unreasonable to say the movie is completely ruined by them, not to mention the "fans" arguing the movie ruined Star Wars as a whole. But with a franchise as large and as varied as Star wars, unfortunately it's kinda unavoidable. The movie which ruined the franchise for one person can be another's favourite in the saga. Everyone has a different view on Star Wars, and they're all equally valid.
You've hit the nail on the head
BattleUp Saber I agree. I am in the mixed on this movie.
THIS. I kinda really upset seeing lots of people on how i really think that TLJ is great but with fatal flaws and i can explain that in detail and in an objective way both great and flaws but nooo the "fans" already marks me that i'm a disney licker bla bla bla.
You expressed exactly my feelings but in a much more eloquent manner.
Yeah, I agree with this one hundred percent. There is a lack of middle ground or nuance when approaching this and really film criticism. It's people shouting at each other, engaging in tribalism and many degrees of being a zealot . For me, The Last Jedi is a mixed bag, leaning on the negative. I still like Rian Johnson, for his films like Brick and Looper are great. But The Last Jedi is a diet Looper without anything to add. The movie's narrative is atrocious in my book as the plot hinges on elements that if rectified wouldn't have pushed the story in the direction it had gone.
The themes of failure and everything are fantastic. But really, I have seen this done better. There's a BattleStar Gallactica episode that handles this so much better. Overall, Rian Johnson as far as I am concerned didn't make the jump to making a big SWs movie. He needed help with this screenplay. It's one thing for him to craft his own story, like Looper, and he wants creativity to craft his own mark. Cool.
But at the cost of consistency and really doing a lot of telling instead of showing; I'm not in favor of that. I wouldn't mind seeing Rian doing his trilogy. He's a great director. But like Snyder; he shouldn't write the trilogy. Or if he does, he needs help. Take the criticisms, the constructive ones, in stride.
I think by omitting crucial context and subtle detail (around 12:00) you end up grossly and unfairly mischaracterizing the reasons why people dislike TLJ; none of the valid criticism I've seen is remotely as simplistic as you make it sound.
Other than that I like the video.
Edit: After listening to your characterization of the criticism a second time, in fact, I believe you don't at all understand the reasons the film receives so much criticism. What you said in that section supports the thesis of the video, but it is not at all an accurate depiction of reality.
Parrot Ox Yep. I made a similar comment. Its baffling that they don't get it.
I don't think its a complete subversion because it relates to the theme of the film, which is there is a grey area. Someone, that represents the extreme in Light is allowed a moment of weakness, he is a human being (and don't forget that he literally almost fell to the dark side in the OT and almost killed Darth Vader. Why is it okay for him to do it there but not here?) It is unfair towards the creators of the last jedi to be mad just because you wanted a Luke that had no flaws, that committed no mistakes. They are not misrepresenting Luke. And if you actually watched the movie, you would've picked up that Lukes death was not bleak nor was he portrayed as a coward in his final act (listen to the score). He did that for the SOLE purpose of apologizing to Ben, he had failed Ben and that scene was him trying to make it right. And btw Mark Hamil worked closely with Rian Johnson regarding his character and had since apologized for initially disagreeing because he realizes its actually good.
Saying that the movie "ruined my childhood" which many many rotton tomato 0/10 reviews said, is STUPID. Sorry these idiots are bringing down the conversation, but it's real. You have "legit" reasons why it's bad? Fine, bro. Good for you.
Hinatea Otare he did it because disney told him to be quiet about his remarks.... notice he has not been alone in any of his interviews for months nao because of what he was saying.
FlynnDWT No, if you watch the first interview with Marek about Luke in TLJ (on imdb YT channel), he says "Luke would not act like that ... but I was ultimately wrong and I liked this version", so "fans" distorted what he said, not Disney.
Patrick: What do we want from a Star Wars movie
Me: the original trilogy
I just wanted a good movie. I got that with The Last Jedi, so I'm satisfied.
Lol good one
How fuggin dare you enjoy a film that I DIDN'T!!!!
@@kinhamid9665 The response comments like this get have nothing to do with enjoyment. That is not the claim OP made, OP claimed that it was a good movie. Claims of quality can be disputed.
By and large no one cares if you liked the movie. People do care about claims of high quality.
What did you like about TLJ? I'm glad you liked it. Most people I know who liked it did so because they liked the Rey/Kylo relationship. I don't hate that, but I also never got attached to either character. So I was looking for Luke, Finn and Poe and there wasn't much going on with any of those.
@@HavardBlackmoor I really enjoyed the Kylo/Rey/Luke storyline - Kylo and Rey have a fascinating dynamic that's actually new to Star Wars. Luke gets a full, complete arc that I find really relatable and powerful - I could go into a whole rant of why I like it, but ultimately I'll sum it up with this: there is a reason why Luke, in his final acts, decides to sacrifice himself so NO ONE ELSE will die, not even Kylo. He refuses to actively attack Kylo, he doesn't hit him at all - because that's how a Jedi should fight. People wanting him to do ninja flips and slice up AT-ATs are how we end up with Yoda with a lightsaber. Poe also gets a great arc, I think him learning that war is not fun and that sometimes you need to retreat, even if it's not the glorious thing to do is a really great progression for him - especially after he got nothing to do in The Force Awakens. Finn's storyline is definitely the weakest - I have a strong suspicion this is because Disney gave the mandate that he and Poe needed to be split up because NO HOMO - but I still enjoy a lot of it. I actually don't mind Canto Bight, in fact I only dislike about one third of that sixth of the movie. I also really like Benicio Del Toro's character, and I think once he comes into play Finn's arc gets kicked into gear - I like Finn genuinely struggling over whether what he's doing is right. I know people say it's a retread of The Force Awakens, but I would argue it's important for his character - it's the second film in a trilogy, everyone is being tested, and here Finn is being tested on whether or not he genuinely believes in the Resistance, or if he's just found himself in the same predicament he was with the Empire First Order I'm just calling it the Empire.
Also the porgs are cute
So much yet so little happened in Last Jedi. Nothing about it was bold at all. It wasn't bold enough and wouldn't commit to anything. There was no character development. I like humor in Star Wars, but this was cringey. It had potentially cool moments I would've appreciated, if they didn't undercut each one right after. This was loaded with plot holes. It's very slow, sloppy, and uneven. At least Force Awakens was fun and had good characterization. I actually cared about what was happening.
I agree that some fans may be like that, but I think theres a problem with these movies. People expect payoff not necessarily because they’re trivia experts, but because the previous film set up a ton of plot points that were meant to pay off. If you look at Blade Runner for example, the new film is a shining example of telling a new narrative that continues story points all while being original and unexpected. Its a shining beacon of what cinema can (and in my opinion should) be. The Last Jedi felt lazy. The plot didnt feel like it was driven by the characters. It felt like it was driven by how do we twist things and make them unexpected. There was no emotional weight to any of the characters, with the exception of the Kylo Rey plot which most seem to agree was quite interesting. Denying an audience payoff doesn’t make a film edgy or unexpected, its just a let down.
Just out of curiosity, what payoff did you want to see? What was missing that you thought should have been in it? Yeah Rey's parentage was set up in the Force Awakens but did people honestly want her to be the daughter of Obi Wan or whatever? Johnson's answer to that question was, to me, far more interesting in terms of character and themes than "oh hey so Rey is this person's child bc somehow everyone in the Star Wars universe that is important is related" would have been.
I think the point is they shouldn't have been setup in the first place. If the answer was always "they were nobody", then it's not a payoff, it deflates. Imagine for a second that we never got glimpses of Rey's heritage in the first movie. I would have made the reveal that she is a strong force user that came out of nowhere much more satisfying, at least for me.
Jardel Elias Well J.J. Abrams obviously didn't meant for Rey's Parents or Snoke to be nobody, he set these questions up because they were kind of interesting questions. He didn't know how Rian would decide to answer his questions, but Rian just ignored them...
WinslowHomie That was actually already resolved in the first movie. Rey had already realized that her parentage wouldn't make or break her efforts to change things or do what she felt was right now and in the future. Bringing it up again was unnecessary and was used by Johnson to talk down to the fans who were speculating and theorizing about who she possibly could be related to. If he didn't want to deal with who her parents were he could have just left it as it was. He dredged it back up to "subvert" the fans expectations. Every choice was made in a similar manner. "Are you excited about an emotional connection between our new protagonist and the old one? Throw that away like trash."
"You like that blue milk from A New Hope? It's from the testicles of a slimy disgusting creature."
"Did the bold, yet skillful actions from Poe remind you of some of classic characters? That's bad and harmful and he should be punished."
"Hey you all really seem to have a special little place in your heart for Ackbar even though he wasn't a very important character. I'll make sure to dispose of him unceremoniously."
It's not exactly WHAT he did, it's the intent behind it. After a while it becomes obvious and it sucks the life out of the film. I went in with wide eyes and an open mind. I couldn't wait to be blown away, but Rian was more interested in subverting than he was in making a cohesive story.
JJ Abrams was TLJ executive producer, JJ and Rian decided together a lot of things, stop thinking that JJ Abrams didn't work in the movie. JJ accepted everything.
I have to say I am seriously impressed with the quality of these.
I love your use of a clip from The Knick. You have good taste, sir.
Personally, this really doesn't describe any of my problems with the movie. I just thought it was a bad movie. People bring up that there were jokes in the original movies, but not all jokes are the same. It's the same reason the fart jokes in the prequels suck, they just don't work in the tone established. So the inconsistency in the tone was probably one of my biggest issues. Also, the reason Snoke's death is dumb is because that means there's no payoff for all the buildup across both movies.Not giving him a backstory is just frustrating to the audience. And the Finn-Rose side quest sucked because it was irrelevant and boring. So I don't like your explanation for the backlash. Maybe this is some peoples' problems with the film, but I think if you strip away the star wars skin, this film just doesn't hold up. But that's just my opinion. Thankfully, we live in a country where we can have different ones. Have a nice day.
You are EXACTLY the person he is talking about. There was NO build up of Snoke, he was never the focus, the focus was on Kylo and Hux from the beginning, Snoke is just there to kick things into motion. You are exactly the person who wanted him to be darth plagueis as some sort of big pay off. And in response to that scene being unnecessary, the whole point of it was to develop the idea that there are good and bad on both sides, it was to make finn question question his loyalty.
There's inherent build-up of Snoke just with how mysterious and unexplained everything about him is. You can't tell me that in Force Awakens, JJ Abrams wasn't trying to tease something. I don't need him to be some deep lore reference like Darth Plagueis, I was just expecting some explanation of where he came from. It could've been a completely original new concept and it would've been better than nothing.
And sorry for the lightning reply, I happened to be checking my email the moment you replied this.
Mason Mcleod there was no need for Snoke to be Plagueis, what was needed was where the heck did he fit in the grand scheme of things.
He was hyped to be important, and then suddenly with one scene he is demoted into a side note.
And the whole Canto Bight scene, what it established basically didn't effect anything at all doesn't it? Finn's dedication to the Resistance never came into question, he then never actually question his resolve, proven by the fact that he was readily going to sacrifice his life for the Resistance, which was foiled by the stupidest excuse by Rose.
There is just no sense of the world in the new Star Wars movies, The heroes are somehow rebels now, even though they had just defeated Palpatine. There is apparently some old alien bathrobe guy from out of nowhere running the show, which never gets explained. The main hero is the most powerful being in the universe from day 1, with zero training or explanation whatsoever. The heroes win every battle and blow up the enemy's death star 2.0 in the first movie, and then somehow they are on their last legs in the 2nd movie. The old heroes from the original are pretty much sad assholes now, and not even remotely the same characters anymore. These movies are just really dumb and bad, don't know how anyone can defend this.
i agree the problem with patrick williams video is he does not acknowledge that people have legitimate criticisms against the last jedi. also patrick williams is basically saying ''the only reason people dont like the last jedi is that it dares to do something different'' except that is not true
The problem with your argument is it assumes too much about the types of people who didn't like the movie and what they want. I didn't like it because the characters are barely characters, the villains are bumbling idiots that offer no sense of threat whatsoever, the marvel-like humour seems to be inconsistent with the movie's tone and the constant attempts at subversion take away from the story. If this were a random franchise it'd get no praise, I don't see why star wars gets a free pass
Exactly! Thank you!
i agree with you musstopher but most of what u said is in most star wars so ur probably just not a fan of them? understandable, they are pretty silly movies i also thought the "the marvel-like humour" to be inconsistent with the tone of TLJ. it was darker then most star wars movies its fine for most star wars films but TLJ could have used slightly less or more organic humor.
star wars doesn't get a free pass.(ill admit it gets some extra points thou) the prequels didnt do well critically and did okay to bad commercially. they were saved by good EU and side shows that gave the lore more life.
at the time. if thous movies didnt have star wars on their name u would have no idea what the fuck they are thou so u do have a point star wars gets a lot wiggle room. thats love i guess.
Tmath Actually I really liked the original trilogy, however I'd say I'm a bigger fan of the star wars universe than I am the movies.
It's hard to get my whole opinion into a single comment but to address the lack of characters and villains as bumbling fools. Yes, certain characters were lacking in the original trilogy but the main characters had progression from one place at the beginning, to another at the end. They had traits, journeys and were likeable. The new movies don't have this. Rey has no character traits, she just is great at everything. She doesn't progress and just overcomes every challenge with ease. This is really boring to watch as a viewer. Luke succeeded, sure, but he also failed a lot. This has been addressed to death so I won't retread old ground but the main issue with her is that there's nothing to care about.
Kylo Ren has some interesting moments but he's largely a non-character too and he's a pathetic villain. A villain is meant to antagonise and challenge the hero. How does he challenge Rey in any way? Vader bested Luke and the rebellion at every turn, it was great. Kylo got beaten in the first movie by Rey, who we know didn't even know the force existed until that very day. I know people point out he was injured yada yada yada. But this doesn't make for good storytelling. Seeing your villain bested at the hands of an amateur puts your villain into perspective; a boring, uninteresting place where you feel no tension from that point onwards.
Po is a bit better as a character but his treatment in TLJ was so bad.
Finn is a strange one. He's a stormtrooper who doesn't like combat or killing, yet he's joined a rebel unit that regularly sees combat and kills? Do I even need to explain why that's bad writing?
Yes, the villains in star wars have always been bumbling idiots. But it would be so much better if they weren't wouldn't it? If I were to criticise the OT, it would be that whilst Vader and the emperor were great, the footsoldiers and officers were bumbling idiots. This is not a good thing. The new trilogy could have used an injection of some tension with the actual troopers to make the stakes higher. Rogue one managed this just fine so you can't say it's not befitting of star wars.
I could say so much more but the lackluster storytelling and poor characters is what puts me off these movies, I doubt they'll be remembered fondly like the OT. That's not nostalgia talking either, I didn't grow up as a fan of the OT. I'm talking as a movie goer who has watched a tonne of movies
MTO Smash yeah but that's why I'm so confused. These new movies are bad too! But everyone praises them because, star destroyers. Han solo. It's like, 'look at them. They've got Original Trilogy content in them. I'm in love!!'. Star-wars-in-appearance-only is how I would describe these new films
Great video Patrick! Loved your approach to the theme... ! Keep the Good Work! My personal top is like yours... Right now i love what we are getting! Everything Star Wars is great eheheh!!!
A seriously underrated video, a lot of fantastic stuff here man
"there is simply no other film series that works this way"
what about the Fast and Furious series, Patrick?
I like this new format, btw!
15:35 no, don’t go to 2020, trust me
I really enjoy your movies. Stumbled upon them during my lunch break on the Shoemaker Batman movies and got stuck watching more and more and more. New subscriber here! Keep it up
I think if the force awakens was release in 1999 everybody would love it
Hell no
I think you have shit taste
And if Empire was released in 2018, they would hate it.
@@eacy7deacy That is true , I wasn't alive in 80s but my dad says he was often mocked for liking Empire Strikes back.
Also it did earn lesser than Star Wars. Sounds familiar right .(cough cough . Last Jedi) ,like poetry it rhymes. I bet TLJ would be respected more in decades to come
308328928, hell yes.
I feel a storm coming on this video....
We just want a good movie.
"But Star Wars is more complicated than that."
Biggest misconception of them all.
It’s true, but it shouldn’t be
Thanks for an interesting and thought provoking topic. Speaking as one of those fans who's old enough to have seen even the original SW in theatres, my take on it is perhaps a little different to yours. I just look forward to and enjoy the movies. I stopped thinking there would be any more after ROTJ so to eventually get the prequels was truly exciting - sure, they weren't great, but my feeling was that the film's weren't really being made for me anymore and I liked them anyway, seriously I did, and I've felt the same since Disney took over. They're all fine, sometimes - Last Jedi is a good example - close to touching greatness, but on the whole fine entertainment. To my mind, with years of film watching now banked, there's only one instalment that was genuinely excellent (I'm sure I don't need to say its name), and generally if I want a great film I'll look elsewhere because there's plenty of good cinematic art out there, but an SW film is always a fun couple of hours, no more no less, and ultimately that's enough for me. Keep up the good work!
You had me at "Skywalker Ranch hat."
"Feeling" -- same with Dark Souls. Same!
Attack of the Clones was decent and Revenge Of The Sith was pretty good
I’m only 4 and a half minutes in and I’m already yelling because that vhs box set is THE EXACT SAME ONE my dad had and where I first got Star Wars from and man is it weird to see it outside of my living room 😂
I think the interesting thing about the idea of time traveling to watch the squeal trilogy as a kid, without expectations, is that for a lot of people, that's how the Prequels ARE. I was 9 when I watched the Originals, but I was ten when I watched Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones, and I LOVE them. Like, I'll admit that they have some problems, but I think they are great additions to the star wars saga in a way the The Force Awakens isn't at all.
Also, I the 'I don't like sand' line is not so bad, and I don't know why people pretend that it is.
Sorry but I found this quite patronising. I a fan of your work but I hate your attitude, which a lot of last jedi fans hold, that those that hated it were just pissed that it didn’t hit out nostalgia buttons. Last Jedis structure is jarring and doesn’t build, the humour completely undermines dramatic tension, blatant plot holes distract you, characterisation isn’t developed the characters are just different. The CGI on Actu felt like the prequel standard. I think primarily that The Last Jedi is not a good film because of the structure, no other star wars film has 3 stories for the duration, all the others stick to 2. Moreover, the jumping in between was dealt with poorly meaning the film did not build and felt slow. I think you needed to address it more objectively with greater emphasis on why it wasn’t a good film in general.
The plot holes argument is so dumb. What plot holes? The plot was super easy to follow. You and others who say "plot holes" over and over have no idea what it even means. It's hilarious.
I'd argue TLJ was trying too hard with nostalgia buttons at points, if only for the sake of subversion. The Resistance dropping the "rebel scum", the aesthetic which looks like a sleeker version of OT, Yoda as a puppet again and bonkers, the Resistance getting defeated in a way similar the Rebels originally. It was the greatest hits without the heart or reason.
the structure is jarring and doesnt build?? plot holes???(what fucking plot holes), characterization isnt devel...u know what, next time give examples to explain ur bs reasons.
The film is riddled with plot holes or at least illogical plot points that go against the established continuity. Here are a few I can think off the top of my head:
-Rose and Finn being able to contact Maz yet there is an entire slow chase scene because they expect us to believe that the resistance cannot contact anyone to help them.
-Why was Maz doing some crazy pirate hijinks instead of finding somewhat to help the resistance when she knew her friends at the resistance where being killed off?
-Admiral Holdo not telling anyone her plan when she has no reason not to as the resistance is literally being killed off and there seems to be no hope.
-The entire slow chase scene takes place over a few hours yet Rey stays with Luke for hours
-Holdo doing that stupid hyperspace maneuver when no one else had even though of it in the thousands of years hyperspace has existed. It completely goes against how hyperspace was established and delegitimized the space battles of previous films
-Rose somehow positioning herself to crash into Finn perpendicularly even though she was last seen next to him while the First Order is firing relentlessly on them.
-Finn is somehow able to drag Rose all the way back to the base thousands of feet away from where they crashed all while the First Order is firing on them. Keep in mind that the First Order had so much firepower that they forced the Poe and the rest of the Resistance to retreat while they were further away from when Finn and Rose crashed
Many of these plotholes and inconstancies have been attempted to be explained away in extra material ranging from books to comics to tweets but if it's not clearly explained in the movie it does not count. This inconsisntancies are all inaction to the numerous character and plot inconsistencies plaguing characters like Luke, Rey, and Finn.
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi Most of these "plot holes" are absolutely explained or obvious from context, others are issues that star wars has always had... like inept villains, hell stormtrooper aim is so notorious it's a joke at this point.
i think you miss something most of the complains come from that people feel not satisfied and notist more problems.
the people feel tricky because TLJ don't continue to tell the story from the force awakens.The dont have any directions for the 3 movies ...
Ninpou Bob exactly! TFA was a soft reset on the whole Star Wars universe, which is understandable, it's a start of a new trilogy from a new owner of the IP aimed for a new generation of would be fans.
What we didn't expect was TLJ then pushed the proverbial reset button once again, by ignoring everything that have came before it, even TFA! It ignored even the first movie of the trilogy, taking the direction of the story into a different route from the set up made by TFA, and worse it leaves NOTHING to set for ep IX, it literally force ep IX to once again hit the proverbial reset button, making the trilogy into an incoherent story.
Is that what you would do in episode 8 of a 9 episode series?????
Patrick come on EFAP!!!!
I think this is the only time I've seen the nostalgia argument made, where I agreed with it.
Luke's fight scene in the last episode of The Mandalorian also really demonstrated how much Disney (or at least those specific producers) understood the point you make here, as well.
Terrific video! This really breaks down so many of my thoughts about the critique people had against The Last Jedi, which I loved so dearly (I ended up seeing it four times in the theater for example)…
And one extra aspect, which you touched upon slightly that I want to expand upon is that The Last Jedi essentially IS about telling us to move forward. Essentially The Last Jedi is about telling us on how to deal with the past and the lesson is that we must move along, but that the past shouldn't be forgotten. Force Awakens message rings true in Han's line "'It's true. All of it. The Dark Side. The Jedi. They're real.", as The Force Awakens is so much about reigniting the legend, the Star Wars WE all knew and loved. Making Star Wars feel like Star Wars again.
And the easy way would be to say that The Last Jedi's summary line is "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to." The thing is… that isn't The Last Jedi's message. Because while it might APPEAR that way (as it is so much about "breaking down" so much of what we knew), the true line is "It wasn’t sadness and pain. It was peace and purpose." Because it's about learning to DEAL with emotions and your past. All of the main character's arc are about them overcoming something that is related to their pasts, but also the past of the role fill: Finn has to overcome his fear of fighting, but understanding that heroic sacrifices and glory aren't what makes heroes. Poe Dameron, as the "lovable rogue" has to learn that sometimes it's about thinking ahead and listening to your superiors and Rey has to realize that her legacy doesn't matter: she can still be "the Chosen One" by just being Rey.
As such, The Last Jedi deconstructs so many of the foundations Star Wars are built on, but not by saying that they are wrong, but to make the characters understand their OWN self worth - not just what it is compared to others. That there is really what The Last Jedi is about as a movie as well - finding it's place in the Galaxy and having it's own identity and challenging the legacy, but by still celebrating it.
Great comment! It's nice to see that I'm not the only person in the world who loves this film.