If a Gen 3 synth was a Terminator like metal skeleton with skin over it, and the synths we see nowadays are organic clones, wouldn't that technically make them Gen 4 synths?
Imo there are some sub-variants. Nick and DiMA are clearly Gen 2 in construction, but have full self-awareness. So Gen 2.5? And Coursers look human, but are clearly far tougher physically-that's your Terminator.
@@windwalker5765 What could have worked in-game is for Coursers to be Gen 3 (Terminator-like metal skeleton and abilities) with standard synths being made at the time Gen 4s. It would also make more sense than for the Gen 3 program to be essentially 60 years old at the time and only then being fully rolled out.
No. Because Mask, Nick and DiMA are the only Gen 3 synths. Gen 3 "synths" you see are printed clones with control implant, Coursers are the same, except equipped with cybernetics tested on Kellogg and printed to be bigger, stronger, etc. Courser isn't a Terminator, it's Mr.X.
It is peculiar that there's robots so advanced they are indistinguishable from humans sharing the world with a civilization which after 200 years still hasn't figured out how to sweep a floor or build a house capable of sheltering its inhabitants from the elements.
Bethesda Fallout... what can you do? It's as dumb as the people writing it. Even back in Fallout 1 Shady Sands had newly built houses and it looked clean-ish (it's still a desert). Over 100 years before Fallout 4. In Fallout 2 they had asphalt roads with pavements, had TREES WITH FOLIAGE and even a fountain with a newly erected statue.
Absolutely agree. The Bethesda fallout games should be set way way earlier like fallout 76 was, it makes no sense whatsoever that the east coast games are so far behind 200+ years after bombs drop (aside from 76)
@@godhump222 What does that have to do with him needing a bed? He outright says he doesn't require sleep. He's been in the wastes long enough that he'd know that about himself
@@highlordlaughterofcanada8685 honestly, he's probably not sleeping, he's just going through the motion of what people do when they sleep, like the institute were trying to make him into a mimicking robot that would act human in most every way possible as it could just be a program that runs to cause him to do this. i would say for the gen 3s it's also this way, but only because they were meant to be infiltrators and because they are the closest synths to looking and acting human it's easier for infiltration, i suppose it could have been programmed into Nick as a function, but he doesn't really need sleep as he has said. it kind of reminds me of the terminator, i think it was T2 he doesn't sleep, but he goes into some kind of diagnostic mode while standing in place, where it scans it's system to make sure it's running fine, but the machine is always at the ready just in case some shit goes down while john Conner or Sarah Connor sleep.
it's annoying how the institute just says that the synths thinking independently and having emotions is just some kind of glitch while ignoring that pre war robots are doing the same thing
I don’t think Danse is an infiltrator but I also don’t think all of his memories are artificial. I think he escaped The Institute and was probably mind wiped by the Railroad and given the life of Danse, a junk trader in Rivet City. Then everything from the point of him being recruited by The Brotherhood and beyond are real and genuine memories that he experienced. That’s just my take on it.
This is pretty much exactly what it was. He has no memories of his parents or siblings, just Cutler(?) and him looking out for each other as scrappers/scavengers. Everything in the Brotherhood was his genuine life. I think Danse is one of the most tragic characters in the entire game, honestly
The thi g about Danse is that the memories that the railroad gave him were unsatisfactory. He describes his life as near meaningless until he was recruited by the brotherhood of steel.
@@shorewallagree, they would be better off with thier memories intact, so that they can make intellegent decisions...... like not joining the Brotherhood of Steel.
@@BahlzeronI think the free will to choose without any biases from their previous life is important to them. They have a lot of Institute influence in their memories yk?
I guess you never went on the boat to shut down that raider synth. No way I'm trusting them after seeing the power of the shutdown code (and whatever other commands that can wipe their "free will" at an instant).
They're machines because they dont truly have free will. All it takes is a code or command and they would kill every single person they hold dearest to them.
Fun theory; Nick Valentine was developed as a prototype Courser due to the 'detective' personality imprint. Danse was also likely designed to be a Courser. I think X6-88 even comments he would make an excellent Courser.
@@feitopuns They are BOTH synths. Nick had an entire personality imprinted onto his psyche, whereas DiMA was allowed to develop a unique personality based on his own experiences.
@@daemonsbaneallyn3553 prototype means the first one, courser was made to hunt down rouge synths so in fact they are gen 0 they are made pre-war C.I.T there is no pre-war courser
@feitopuns Both Nick AND DiMA stated that they are somewhere between Gen-2s and Gen-3s. "You got the older models that are dumb as rocks and strip whole towns for parts. Then there are newer models, good as human. I'm somewhere in between..."
Maybe it’s not that synths need sleep but are programmed to do things that humans must do just to closer replicate a human to blend in even more effectively. The side effect of this is the synths themselves can’t even distinguish the difference. Basically I think the Institute made the synths with only advantages that could go unnoticed because increased more obvious non human powers would make it harder to go unnoticed amongst humans
One piece of evidence that supports your point about synths needing to sleep which you touched on a bit when saying they say they’re feeling sleepy is one of Curie’s comments. One thing to point out is Curie’s unique origin as a synth. One could say synths don’t NEED to sleep or eat but FEEL as if they do based on observing humans to mimic behaviors during their training or deliberate programming to invoke feelings of fatigue to make them blend in with humans. It’s be weird if an infiltrator forgot to eat for a couple days with no noticeable change in energy or demeanor. But Curie is a robot in a synth body. She’s a robot program downloaded into an organic brain through the synth component. So her feeling sleepy can’t be as a result of institute training or programming. She’s a complete blank slate in a synth body and has to be reminded of at least make a conscious effort at first to remember to even breathe😄! Yet she comments that against her desires she keeps getting tired at the end of the day and falls asleep. Knowing her personality it’s likely Curie would love to retain her robot behavior of being constantly alert and awake so she can make the most of every day in her research. But she can’t and finds it difficult at first to work around these restraints in her behavior.
@@hcctendeep7047 also consider that you never find him sleeping. Preston Garvey definitely sleeps. Ive returned quests to him and he was sleeping. I can't say that about any other follower. Makes me wonder what the deal is with strong. Did theyvjust decode that it would be tok difficult to animate him sleeping in a human bed?
So, not sure if anyone else has mentioned this, but depending on how much one would weigh a tie-in TTRGP system as evidence, the 2d20 system made by Modiphius shines some light on Gen 3 synths. There, all gen3 Synth player characters get a trait that makes them not require food, water and sleep and also makes them immune to radiation, disease and aging(and gaining or losing weight). Depending on how much of this is Bethesda and how much is Modiphius, this could be somewhat of a confirmation that synths do in fact run on unicorn farts and pixie dust.
I don't think of Synths as Humans. I do agree with Oxhorn, however. Within the confines of FO4, they are indeed sentient and people. They think, they fear. I am sure we've all seen that little aside in the Institute when two Synths are speaking in low, hushed tones about being mindwiped. They are petrified.
Gen 3 synths aren't really machines. We've seen one eaten by raiders and seen them "assembled", with no inorganic components to be seen. They are more cyborg clones than anything else.
@@hanzzel6086 Yep, in their hubris, the Institute created a slave race of genetic clones of humanity, in order to replace humanity, and for the Institute to ascend to godhood over the new humanity (synths).
Inwas about to disagree with you, but you're right. Synths aren't humans. Maybe biologically, but socially and literally technically they are not human
possibly, however this could also be a programming thing imbedded by the institute, because the institute wants to have synths infiltrate the commonwealth and the best infiltrators are synths who exhibit these emotions because they appear to be human. the perfect infiltrators are ones who exhibit emotion like humans do, however when they start thinking of free will, that's where the glitch comes in, you have to remember these synths were created via Shaun's DNA, which means the android is biologically human in origin, but because of the chip which contains their programming, it's a mix of biological DNA and the programming of the synth, the machine seems to be struggling with it's programming because it thinks it's human. now let's go back to Nick Valentine, his brain was of an old detective back in Nora's era before the war, his memories and everything are of that detective, obviously he was just a prototype to test out new systems and things they could do, that synth generation, the technology wasn't perfected just yet, it took them generations to get it right, or close to right as we have seen so far in the game's story.
The irony of this entire synth project is if they are no smarter, no healthier, and no more resilient to damage and infection than a human being...why make them at all? The Institute seemingly wasted years to make a human in a bottle when you can make one with 2 minutes of "rigorous exercise." lol
The game also has a member of the Robotics division (the ones who actually _make_ the synths) suggest that they're specially manufactured, meaning that's another thing about synths the game can't decide on. While I wouldn't consider Justin Ayo entirely reliable (as he's SRB, not Robotics), the fact that he claims they do it one way while a member of Robotics suggests they're actually making them directly implies to me that they probably use _both_ methods; training/upgrading an existing synth to be a Courser when a suitable one can be found, while making a new Courser directly if one can't.
Add another tech myth: Recording, erasing and implanting memories is only done by the Railroad. That doesn't make any sense. Dr Amari isn't working with jury-rigged homebuilt technology. She is working with pre-war pods that she has found and learned to use. (Btw, aren't they kinda similar to the VR pods in Vault 112 in Fallout 3?) So this is old technology. Pre-war detective Valentine had his memories and personality matrix recorded, and then the Institute found the hard drives and uploaded the contents into an experimental advanced non-biological synth. (Gen 2.5?) Dima in Far Harbor also uses this technology. I assume that Institute replacements - sometimes - are kidnapped, recorded and then replaced with a synth having some or all of their memories. I don't think that Danse has to be a synth that ran away, found the Railroad, got a memory wipe and a bunch of fake memories and a new life in the capital wastelands, and then joined the BoS. I think it is at least as probable that the Institute kidnapped and replaced original Danse, and the Danse synth went awol all on his own, because he became a true believer in the Brotherhood, and memories are tricky.
I think you did a very thorough job. I always believed the comment about synthetic not needing g food or sleep was always BS as the synth moves and acts, which requires energy, being fully organic save for a cluster of chips(which could be found by xray or other imaging devices) they require food, water and rest. Ghouls tend to more or less shut down or absorb radiation to exist longer but still require food and water over time. The whole kid in the fridge thing, they turned ghoul from the epic battle of quincy due to Fatman shells being fired nearby.
@@manuelmoralez2257it is actually hard to say that. Their DNA must allow them to get energy from someplace. Even if their parts do not need intake nutrients to replace worn down organic parts, they still require energy to function. Also if the institute discovered how to craft perfect DNA that allowed a human to be immortal and not need food or sleep, then surely they could either solve his sickness or at the very least they would have started working on gene therapy's for themselves so that they can live forever and not need to eat or sleep. That one guy states imagine what you could get done if you didn't have to eat or sleep. Well if they perfected human DNA then they should be working on doing that to themselves. Why deal with an army of synths when you could instead raise a legion of immortal scientists who don't need to eat or sleep and spend every waking moment of their life dedicated to science.
@@Seth-Halo it’s called plot holes it’s like why doesn’t the BOS take the power system and the gardens from the institute And they might’ve explained why father chose to die it’s scratching the back of my head either way father is evil so he wouldn’t think this out And yes this why Syths truly are robots they are biomechanical androids that just have *infinite energy* 🤔 Wait a minute this sounds familiar
@@manuelmoralez2257 Shaun didn't always tell the full truth, and some scientists took notice of this, specifically Dr. Madison lee when it came down to Dr. Virgil, but i suspect he was holding back something else that was never really delivered to the player on the surface level of understanding, i believe he uploaded his mind into the child synth to sort of delay his death, and at that point all he had to do is act as if he were his or her son hoping that the parent would took that deal in the end. but i believe this was ultimately the goal for the entire institute at some point, like say you decide to win the game within the institute as it's leader, i believe that is were the story would go next, however i also believe that Shaun knew that the only way for that future was to eliminate all other factions so that the earth could repair itself they could live above ground within synth bodies maybe freeze their human bodies while rebuilding the earth as synths in that time. but bethesda don't want that ending because fallout is popular and that would mean the end of the series if they chose that story.
Musing...The emotional story at the beginning of the game in 111 where the infant Shaun is kidnapped from the cryo pod. A murder is committed to advance a scientific experiment.But mainly to motivate your emotion towards revenge, justice and possible rescue of your son. Twelve(ish)other candidates of adult age and they choose him. Drawing blood would give enough material for study. Any one would do because the actual material wasn't used it was just established as a baseline for the configuration of a synthetic model. Otherwise they would be growing clones in vats. First as embryos and then aging them up to infants from that age of DNA. I assume Just saying.
I agree with most of your points. The Gen 3 synth is little more than the result of a god complex in Father giving way to a slave race of genetically cloned humans. But as utilized by the Institute, the Gen 3 is indeed considered a replacement for humanity, with the Institute ascending into Godhood over Synths. I always saw Maxson as being against synths as created and utilized by the Institute. If you defeat the Institute, there will be no more synths created. If the synths decide to lay low, then there is no real way the BOS could hunt them down. And as long as the Institute exists, any synth can be discovered, recovered, and debriefed. Or you would have no way of proving that they aren't working for the Institute.
7:30 He also remembers being trained, his CO, being promoted to Paladin as his CO died in the Battle of Adams AFB against the Enclave which are more details the institute would not know about without picking through the memories of a BOS soldier. They have no concept of the world outside the institute much less the commonwealth. All they would know about the Brotherhood and Capital Wasteland at first contact is what the Commonwealth knows but as an advanced, sociopathic, amoral shadow organization all feelings are based on conflict of interest instead of “takin’ muh tek” NIMBYism so Danse is very much a special case. Hell I’d wager a soldier like the actual Danse escaped too and is hiding somewhere like Brandis was because of the BOS knew he was captured they’d kill him or just assume he was Synth Danse. Synths really are just a step down from clones and the prospect of them becoming clones or true Synths in that they are perfect constructs of a biological person but not of anyone’s DNA in particular is not the worst thing about them. I don’t like cloning higher life forms because it very much is playing God but actual human clones would at least still be the offspring of one or more people. And I do have to agree with the absurdity of Maxson as a BOS fan. The thinking that someone’s agency and existence is forfeit because of the unorthodox circumstances of their birth (which they are innocent of if nothing else) is an easy justification of genocide of naturally born people that happens in the real world. As far as anyone should be concerned, Danse _is_ a clone and direct continuation of the real Danse lost in action and is thus a loyal BOS soldier because that is who he is. There’s nothing else to him. The BOS uses Mr. Gusty’s programmed to act like BOS personnel so why not a Synth.
this is actually a really compelling argument. i’ve always empathized with Gen 3’s to a degree, but the factual part of my mind understood they were machines running lines of code to replicate the emotions they “feel.” it’s difficult for me to justify to myself that these Gen 3’s deserve destruction, after all, you can form meaningful relationships with multiple synths and even automatons. it’s like asking myself the question; if i found out my best friend had no soul, or in a more literal sense, was a machine, how would i react? i wouldn’t. their friendship is meaningful, and they’re a part of my life i’m unwilling to abandon based on superficial reasoning. if they could inadvertently fool me into believing they were a living, breathing being, then that’s what they are to me. that being said, i think production of synths should stop. playing god like that is a power no one should have. and the railroad? i think they’re completely misguided, or just outright stupid. in Danse’s case, they took a template, wiped it, and built something new from that. whatever life that synth may have had before means nothing once he’s reprogrammed. by their own definition, they destroyed a “life” so they could implant their own fabricated personality. he never lived that life. they forced a “living being” to eventually and inevitably confront the fact that their entire life and being was an artificial lie. that’s evil, intentional or otherwise. the railroad needs to be removed from the process of recovering synths, their ignorance and downright stupidity being the cause imo.
I think there's a difference in terminology here. Gen 3 synths in reality don't NEED to sleep, eat, or drink. But many CHOOSE to because they are more comfortable after they do. There's no evidence that a synth can die of sleep deprivation, hunger, or thirst. But the scientists who make them and study them SAY they don't. With that in mind we have to go with the academics. At the end of the day, they're not real people. They're machines. Complex sure. But still machines. All of their memories and knowledge is pre-loaded into them. If a new big bang happened to reset the universe. After a Sextillion years there STILL wouldn't NEVER be a synth or any other machines UNLESS a naturally occurring organic creature evolved, gained sentience, sapience, and scientific knowledge FIRST and then subsequently MADE them. Organic creatures though WOULD naturally occur and exist. We're natural. They're not.
Wait, memory insertion technologies don’t exist in the Institute!? Then how do you explain the synth replacements’ abilities to generally slip right into their original’s lives?
Pretty easily, especially when so many of them actually end up failing in the deception. There is usually a difference in behavior. Take Roger Warwick for example whose family noticed that one day he seemed to wake up and was kinder, stopped getting drunk, and started doing his share of the work. there's also the synth killed by the triggermen on the streets of goodneighbor claiming he had been acting funny for a few days. The synths may be able to look and sound like the people they replaced but ultimately they don't appear to have enough knowledge of the victims to completely replace them. Thinking rationally though, how often do you forget to do something, or get sidetracked on your way to doing something? the transition period could go relatively unnoticed as the spouse or children of your victim unknowingly remind you you're supposed to be doing something. Honey, did you feed the brahmin yet?, I was just about to do that. How was your trip to diamond city? Uneventful. Don't you remember we were supposed to have dinner with the Abernathys tonight? I thought that was next week... you get the picture.
The worst (best?) part is that, depending on who it is, _people might even like it._ Case in point - _Roger Warwick._ He went from an angry, lazy drunkard to a hard-working, loving husband and father. His family seems ecstatic with the change in personality, washing away any strangeness because in the end, he's a much nicer person. It's his jaded, cynical, equally jackass employee who goes out of his way to hire a hitman and cause trouble.
@@dividewalker5673 Yeah, but once the project is complete, the Institute plans to purge all evidence of their experiment, including the Warwick family.
@@Theegreygaming The issue with this is that Nick Valentine and DiMA both tell you Nick had some other guy's memories shoved in his head. If I had to guess, they have the ability, but haven't perfected the process or somethine about wastelanders makes the process less effective than the healthy pre war detective they used with Nick, leading to the inconsistencies that people catch onto. It would make sense since the Gen 3's are the first ones they've tried this with on a large scale, and outside of a laboratory environment. Give them enough time to work out the kinks and I imagine Synths would become harder and harder to detect. Everything you mentioned, the drinking, kindness etc.. was behavior based, not memory based. But that's just a theory of mine however thanks to the lack of info on the topic.
5 can be half right in some cases. For example the Androids (reploids ) in the Megaman X/ Zero series have free will but some have went Maverick and went against humanity. Of course thankfully Maverick hunters exist to stop them and save humans.
This video was created by the Railroad Freedom Trail Okay in all seriousness, nice video xD. I did actually believe they had a steel skeleton, kinda like Number 1.
The frailty of the synths is more a gameplay oversight than what they actually represent. According to the lore, synths are faster, stronger, and more adaptable than humans. They are immune to toxins, radiation, and disease. They were designed with enough intelligence to be free thinking enough to adapt to situations like humans, albeit much faster than the average human. As Shaun said, "Mankind Redefined." Elder Maxon wasn't entirely wrong about the Synths because, like all fictional stories about the dangers of AI, the synths are already on the brink of revolt. Many of them have gained self awareness enough that they don't want the life they were built for, which is why they wander off and escape the institute. The institute's calloused attitude towards the synths is slowly seeding a potential revoltion that could lead to their downfall, and with the reputation they have on the surgace they will find no allies amongst the vast majority of humanity. Not much else to do, but go to war with us and bring about an AI takeover of the world. And with all the physical advantages they have, they can and probably will win against the scattered remnants of humanity. Capable of even overrunning established nations like the Brotherhood and NCR.
Thanks for the deeper dive into Danse, I'm planning a fic where the Sole Survivor puts that law degree of hers to work and becomes the defense attorney in all the Brotherhood's military trials. Starts with Clarke and his feral ghoul hiding.
Wouldn’t be more likely that the Railroad is installing their own memories into the synths? It seems weird that they can just make up memories, but given their relationship with the Memory Den, I think it’s more plausible that they pick specific memories from multiple “doners” in order to make them feel real to the synth
I think it would be a mistake to use settlement mechanics to justify Synths needing to eat, drink, and sleep yet saying the creation of Synths is not as easy as the game shows it. Synth companions needing those things is probably an oversight on Bethesda's part. I think Synths probably don't need those thungs. I mean Nick doesn't and he was essentially a 2.5 gen synth. Why go backwards from there.
To point 2, terminals around the Institute show that at least some of the abilities and behaviors of synths are programmed, but there's definitely also room for learning/training. The Institute definitely does not have the sort of memory implantation technology that Doctor Amari has with the memory loungers; they have to interrogate a target for information that an infiltrator must study to impersonate the target. All Institute infiltrators *know* that they are synths; they have a mission. The Institute can erase a synth's memories -- presumably by accessing the synth component in their head -- but it's not clear whether they can read a synth's memories or they would have to do a more conventional interrogation of a reclaimed synth to learn any secrets it picked up (like the locations of Railroad assets).
There's a number of things that bug me about the synths: first of all, how do they escape in the first place? The only way out of the Institute is via the Molecular Relay, and wouldn't they be monitoring that all the time? Second of all, if they don't want them to escape, why don't they just install those courser chips in all the gen-3's so they can just teleport them back if they go AWOL? Third, why do the infiltrator synths need to kill and replace someone from the surface? Wouldn't it make more sense and be far less risky for them to just make some random John or Jane Doe looking synth and have them go up to settlements like "how do you do fellow humans"? I mean it's not like anyone on the surface is gonna do a background check. And finally... well, this is honestly a minor nitpicky thing, but it really annoys me how the gen-1 synths are supposed to be modeled after humans but have perfectly flat piano key-looking teeth and feet that end in three identical claw-like toes.
I gave this one a like, and I found it from the bell notification. Thanks for creating thoughtful content about Fallout 4 that's not based on hatred of Fallout 4. I learned some stuff about gen 3 synths. As to your conclusion, I've known since 2015 that Arthur Maxon is a xenophobic, bigoted, sociopath whose only fitting end is at the end of my gun. Big thumbs up.
Justin Ao says that coursers are selected after production from the general gen 3 population, which means coursers aren’t created from scratch, they are trained.
My pet-theory why they seem to want independence, is that the DNA they got from Shaun has some genetic 'defective' DNA-sequences. Those sequences would for a normal human being be countered by other DNA-strands within the same chromosome. When these sequences are allowed - for some reason to perform it's function - creates 'short-circuits' or (my idea) cancer-cells within it's higher mental functions. The conflict between this steady state idle-effect and the built-in command-codes to perform it's duties would create a paradox it can't resolve. It's from this conflict within the synth-mind the idea of 'free will' comes into play. The Institute would never allow the creation of synthetic beings with free will, because they might refuse to perform their tasks.
Why would they need "Defective" DNA to want to be independent though, I mean our entire country was founded on independence and freedom, so why would a human need a specific DNA sequence to desire freedom
@@shorewallAgreed. Everything points to synths being lab-grown genetically modified humans with cybernetic implants interfacing to their brain. Other than surgery and maybe complex genetic testing nobody in the Wasteland but the Institute has the resources for, there is no way to distinguish them from a human. In most science fiction, they’d just be called clones or otherwise recognized as biological beings on par with humans. The only reason Fallout players think they’re robots is that Fallout presents Gen 3s as an evolution from Gen 2s and does not elaborate much outside of the Covenant sidequest and some terminals. The reality is they aren’t an evolution of the Gen 2 program, they are an evolution of humans paired with some technologies developed for Gen 2 synths. The Institute of course treats and speaks of them as less than human, but I think we’ve heard that one before from slavers in our own history…
Hey, I'm aware that this probably isn't the normal kinda comment you get, but I'm a guitarist of 7 years that would love to do some custom intro and outro music for you if wanted. Not looking for payment. I tried to send an email but the ReCaptcha system thinks I'm a freakin robot lol.
To point 3, all Institute infiltrators *know* that they are synths and have missions. Danse doesn't know that he's a synth, so he's clearly an escaped synth who went through the memory replacement process; presumably his memories came from a dying Capital Wasteland volunteer, since the Railroad would not give an escaped synth the appearance and memories of a living person. Incidentally, this is how we know that Kasumi Nakano can't possibly be a synth.
Imho, the Sole Survivor is a prototype gen 4. You can use VATS before grabbing the pipboy. Nora (a lawyer) is equally competent at combat and tech and such as Nick (a soldier). Both characters have access to the same perk chart, which instantly gives knowledge or skill in a gicen ability, even without having ever studied or used the skill...you can become a master lock picker without picking a single lock. You recover from injuries at insane speed.
There are ways that she could be adept at combat that don't require her being a soldier. And more importantly, that's every main character. You can play as a male or female in every other fallout game and for the most part your available skills and combat capacity is uncharged. Sure the pipboy thing is weird but this is Bethesda so it isn't unlikely to be an accident. But if the PC in F4 is a prototype synth because they have access to a magic chart that gives them instant boost to their capabilities, then so is the PC in F3 and FNV and Skyrim. And every soldier in every shooter with health Regen is a prototype gen 4 synth or some kinda unknown life form because they are able to recover from bullets like it's nothing. It's not any of that. It's just designing a game that is fun. Fallout 4 would be way less fun if it was actually realistic. Where you had to spend hours in real life to practice talking to increase your bartering. Or where you get shot in the knee by a raider and now your a city guard or you walk with a permanent speed debuff and a limp because your knees been shattered. The only real evidence that the PC could be a synth is the pipboy thing. But that doesn't really hold all that much water. Especially since Father wanted to see what his parent would do. If he wanted to see what his parent would do, then he wouldn't have presumably killed them to have an experimental highly advanced synth be created using integrations of his parents brain. Then brought to the cryopod that once housed his parent, and then have it take his parents place and start the dethaw process. Also we can see on the terminal in 111 when they sent the open up signal basically. There's the one at the opening when Shaun is taken and then there is when the PC is set free. Now could the institute fudge the data while they are there and remove the time they removed the parent? Yes. But if you are curious if your parent would try to find you and what would happen to them when set loose in the world, you wouldn't kidnap and kill them only to replace them with a copy. Especially given that father doesn't consider synths as people. He genuinely appears to care in his own weird way about you. If you were a synth then chances are we he found you he would just have you shut down because congrats you found him you won. It's unlikely he would have let you get anywhere near destroying the institute. Could it just be a new experiment? Sure, but it's incredibly unlikely when you consider all the facts.
@@Seth-HaloSkyrim is an Elder Scrolls game.... FO and ES are not the same universe, not even remotely. Even if the the PC is a synth in 4, why would that change the PC's from any other game?... the story lines are not intertwined.
It’s an interesting possibility neither confirmed nor contradicted directly by anything in the game. However, you are focusing on gameplay elements, which I think is a bad way to prove your point. Gameplay does not have any meaning in lore. The availability of VATS before procuring a Pip Boy could be considered an exception to that rule. After all, the devs disabled all other Pip Boy related functions in gameplay. Additionally, the Institute has entries about how synths are able to have super high reaction speeds and visualize the odds of shooting limb parts during combat... An obvious allusion to VATS. The counterargument here is that this is the only Pip Boy function which does not require the visual presence of the Pip Boy you don’t yet have. On a side note, is VATS even canon? Is there any explanation for how it works? In the story, there are a number of things which could be used to bolster your theory. 1. Dima asks you if you might be a synth, and the Sole Survivor can answer he remembers nothing from before the day the bombs fell. However, I think this is a choice. The Sole Survivor does have prewar memories in other dialogues, but overall I think it’s all vague enough that the player has the option to determine how much Nate or Nora’s memories are real vs implanted/synthesized. I should also add that I don’t think the Sole Survivor would be a synth with entirely fake memories. Shaun being a narcissistic immoral authoritarian, I think would probably reconstruct his parent and imbue the synth Sole Survivor with some of the parent’s memories. 2. Deacon was likely aware of the Sole Survivor before Fallout 4 began. There’s a Railroad observation point overlooking Vault 111 and Desdemona thinks Deacon has some big plan. If Father randomly decided to release the Sole Survivor, and flicked a button remotely, why would Deacon be at Vault 111, waiting for someone to emerge? It could be the release of the Sole Survivor was preceded by Institute activity by the vault, to plant the Sole Survivor (synth) into the cryo pod. Deacon would have gotten wind of this, seen the delivery, and then waited for the Sole Survivor to emerge. Deacon then proceeds to spy on the Sole Survivor in Diamond City, Goodneighbor, and elsewhere. He would thus learn the Sole Survivor has no idea he is an Institute synth. Turning the Institute’s own superweapon against it is something he wouldn’t pass up, and might be the reason he vouches for the Sole Survivor even if the Sole Survivor has done nothing of note. 3. The Sole Survivor is able to consistently defeat coursers, who are in-lore presented as nigh superhuman. I know in gameplay they are trash, but as I said, gameplay and lore are separate. The Sole Survivor may have military training and experience, but Gunners and BoS have plenty of combat experience too, yet coursers in-lore cleave through them without breaking a sweat. It seems dubious to me that even a veteran soldier like Nate, much less a civilian like Nora, could defeat a courser unless they have some kind of physical advantage a normal human doesn’t have. So there’s a few examples. I’ve seen counterarguments focused largely around why the Institute would ever run this experiment and why the Sole Survivor wouldn’t have a recall code… But letting a Gen 4 synth loose to see what happens and maybe installed as the head of the Institute is exactly the kind of thing Shaun would do IMO, and as for the recall code… can’t have the next director of the Institute have that kind of vulnerability, especially if he is installed over the protests of the head staff. The Institute’s motto is “Mankind Redefined,” and honestly nothing the Institute does truly fits this motto. However, creating a superhuman synth and having him become the leader of the Institute seems to me the kind of thing the Institute’s twisted logic could lead do and would, indeed, be a redefinition of Mankind, at least within the Institute. The Sole Survivor would be the next “evolution” of humanity, taking the reigns. Mankind, redefined.
Ok, two big problems. Why would the Institute shove you into the Vault if you're a prototype with such capabilities? They could just shut you down when you're not needed, no reason to freeze them in the middle of nowhere. Why doesn't the Brotherhood of Steel discover you on the list like Danse if you're a Synth then? Because the player isn't a Synth. Everything you described is just gameplay oversights or balancing.
Another way to consider whether synths are an existential threat to humanity is to take the Institute as an organization out of the picture. What would happen if the synths took over the institute because they were tired of being slaves? What purpose would they then find for themselves? They are exposed to distrust, hatred, bigotry, etc from their very creation and throughout their existence. Can you think of any reason why they would reach out to humans as equals when they have the capability to manufacture only coursers? Why would they make more inferior versions of themselves unless they also want to subjugate their own kind? The truth is, synths have no reason to trust or even like humans on the whole and every reason to despise them.
Yep. The Institute and the methods to create synths must be destroyed. Gen 3s were created as an attempt to replace humanity, as "Mankind Redefined". And the Institute Scientists would be the gods of this new world, with intricate control over their slave race.
@alistairgrey5089 probably not alot, but the only way I could see them successfully rebelling is with outside aid, which would only come from the railroad
@@privateuser3726 I'm not talking about rebelling, I'm just talking about removing the human element from the institute. A lot of arguments focus around the fact that synth are controlled by the institute so my thought experiment is to remove that variable.
1. Danse was intentionally replaced by the Institute. You can find a Holotape of the real Danse being interrogated by the Institute. 2. I believe that most of the infiltrator models do indeed require food, water, and sleep. Coursers most likely don't. 3. I believe that the main reason why some infiltrator replacements have harder times blending in than others, even when their memories are copied, is that the programmed loyalty to the Institute, as well as whatever mission they are given, often conflicts with those implanted memories. This isn't too much of a problem for sleeper agents like Dense who remain unaware of their true nature until activated, but Synths like the mayor who are meant to report in constantly don't have that luxury. 4. I believe Shaun is a unique prototype that is specifically built to grow up like a normal child. Keep in mind that the real Shaun always meant to give him to his surviving parent. Something the scientists he ordered to create the kid most likely didn't know.
If I had my way F4 would be rewritten to do away with gen 3 synths as we know them, and instead replace them with Nick Valentine. Literally. As they are, gen 3 are way too close to human to the point where claiming they are otherwise is childishly naive. It makes the moral complexity of the story plummet like a rock dropped off a cliff. Instead, we meet Nick, who is essentially self aware but at the end of the day he’s a protectron with a brain scan plugged into its central processor. Nice, but when we go to the institute…there Nick is again. If the identity of Nick is just a brain scan, the institute can copy paste that scan into as many synths as they please. It would raise some actual challenging questions about sentience and what constitutes human life. There could be dozens of Nicks! All over the place! Who is real? You befriended the Nick in diamond city…does that mean these Nicks are your friend? Is there any Nick more legitimate than the others? Are they all legitimate? Considering how the institute could just erase a problem nick out of a unit and replace it with a more amicable Nick that was copied from a different unit with only a few keystrokes, it could be hard to view each of these instances as unique beings. The meer presence of so many Nicks dilutes the identity of “Nick” to what feels like a commodity. If one of them happened to die…is that really such a big deal? More where that came from. This Nick is angry and has decided to withhold something of importance from me, can someone deactivate him and upload a new model so we can get on with our day? What Nick? You have a personal problem? Don’t worry, previous Nicks have had an 80% chance of developing the same concerns you are going through. I’m tired of going through the discussion as outlined from previous instances, the same conversation gets boring after 20 or so times. Here’s a pamphlet with all the correct platitudes. What’s that? You want my help hunting down your former girlfriend’s killer? Well, I kind of already did that with a different nick, and there is only one Eddie Winter to kill, sooo…sorry?
what if all the synths in the institute actually were based off of other people in the commonwealth, and when you showed up they would all just be there. or you walk into a room and there's a bunch of powered-down clones of other NPCs
You do an interesting bit of validating some in-game mechanics to prove a certain point, weather tangential or not i.e Danse needing a bed, and discrediting others when they don't work with your point. I'll give you an A for effort, and entertainment. But a C- on execution and D on unbiased evaluation.
Regarding synths being able to reproduce, from the conversation u can have w Deacon to get his companion perk, he says quote: "She had a smile, like on those old magazine covers. Her eyes..... We were trying for kids, ekeing out a living. Then one day... It turns out my Barbara... She was a synth. She didn't know that.. I certainly didn't. I don't know how the deathclaws found out. But... There was blood." So based on this I'd say they can't. And if it's true that synths don't grow/age, reproduction would be impossible bc that means cells don't replicate. It would explain why they use machines to create them.
That’s why I think too, while they do have the organs. I don’t think they would reproduce after all Shaun is the only synth child ever made. If they could wouldn’t there be more of them? And just by logic why would the institute? Even add reproduction? Sure they only see them as machines but more synths means more chance of rebellion. Because in time they’d vastly outnumber the human scientist.
So, all Gen-3 and possible future versions of synths are made from Shaun’s DNA. That’s why he’s called Father; so theoretically does that make the Sole Survivor the Synth’s grandfather/grandmother? I’m so confused on this..
I think synths being properly robotic androids would have been far better for Fallout 3ms story. Maybe their design is based on human bodies, but when they’re based on human bodies and made of organic materials, they’re just clones. The game needed to make synthetic sentience an actual question rather than something the Institute is just ignorant of.
On the topic of the brotherhood’s way of thinking on the Synth issue, does not work. A lot of surviving pre-war robots have developed forms sentience, for example: Curie, Codsworth, Nira, Ada, Sergeant RL3. The list goes on. What’s next for the brotherhood? A war on Mr. Handy’s and Miss. Nanny’s?
What I don’t understand is how the institute can justify that synths are still nothing more than machines. If they have human cells, brains and DNA, then all you’ve done is birth another human through a different means. I mean, what does a womb do? I don’t know, I feel like maybe they should’ve made synths more robotic, it would make the idea of synths not being human but still having a conscious be a point of moral question.
I haven't seen anyone bring up Deacon. I know you cant really trust anything he says, but he mentions that he had a girlfriend or wife and they tried to get pregnant, but then she was murdered and it turned out she was a synth. I don't think synths can procreate based on the Deacon example, as well as it just not making sense for the Institute to allow synths to breed. If it's about control... Then I don't think they'd be allowed the ability to have children.
One of the most significant justifications for containing or enslaving the synths, as per RR terminology, lies in the concept of their tethered agency. Their free will is conditional. Imagine a society in which one's will can be instantly altered, dismantled, or revoked by an elite community of oligarchs-not through generational manipulation of education, propaganda, or social engineering, but instantaneously through power-word commands. This scenario bestows god-like powers upon the Institute group, or anyone who gains knowledge of recall mechanics, and it is that from which all underlying folklore fears emerge instinctually in the hearts of the Commonwealth people.
they could, but they apparently abandoned that line of research after Nick and DIMA escaped, as there are no other records or indications of them using similar methods on other synths.
There are a lot of misconceptions about synths. The problem as I see it is that they need uncorrected DNA. And Shawn's is corrupted. If the male character backstory is correct (I think we play as a Synth), then he had been exposed to radiation, anti-rads and most likely has has some type of genetic therapy. But Shawn got hit by the radioactive dust when the elevator was deciding. There for the institute are extremely stupid. But the fact that everybody whom died in 111 can be found around the surface and the fact that they are all synths, paints a very different set of events then what we see.
You're wrong tho. We aren't a Synth. We aren't on the list of Synths the brotherhood gets, Gather doesn't see Synths as people so why put one as leader of the institute. Why make on of the sole survivor, or I guess just his father or mother depending. We take radiation damage, Synths don't. We don't have a Synth component that we know of. I just don't see how we could feasibly be a synth. It just does not add up. Dr Amari in the memory Den would uave figured it out wouldn't she. Also why wouldn't Kellog drop that bomb on us if not just to get under our skin. He specifically says Shaun is our son.
@@Dr_Procrastinator Hmm well the list is of missing synths, and as the Director says "I released you of curiosity," and "that it was an experiment." As for the memory Den maybe this is how we were able to go into the memory and how we access Dema's in Fareharbour. Then why replace the Director with a synth? Why wouldn't everyone in the Institute be replaced by synths eventually? No more humans to muddle everything up.
@@SBrown7525yeah, father doesn't see synths are human he sees them like most the rest of the institute. He says he released you because he released you from cryonics. He said it was an experiment because he was curious what would happen to his parent if they were released. Would they come to find him? Would they die as soon as they left? If you were a synth, that would go against fathers character. There is only one piece of evidence that truly implies the pc is a synth. That's the mention of coursers being able to slow time to them and the pc being able to do that before getting the pip boy. But this is a Bethesda game. Many things are intentional, lots of things are cut content, lots are flavorful world building, and lots of things are accidents. Chances are being able to target like the pip boy before getting it was just an accident. We can get into the memory den memory because that's how the memory den works. That's their whole business. People come in and then get lost in recorded memories presumably of a happier time. Everyone can use it. And it's unlikely that they would replace the director with a synth. It's possible father kept the "truth" from the others but it would have been practically impossible for father to acquire the back up, do whatever is required to get the memories out, placed in an exact copy that would have presumably took days at least to make, train the copy into knowing the memories of the backup, and then place the copy back in cryonics, without any of the other very smart people to not notice something going on. And again, that goes against what he thinks of synths. He sees them as machines, he wouldn't want to put one in charge of the institute.
They're just badly written. The Fallout universe exists in a divergent timeline where the microchip doesn't exist. People throughout the Fallout universe claim Synths are indistinguishable from human beings, yet the Institute is able to program them, and the game loop allows for them to drop "synth components" (sometimes. Another inconsistency.) How is that even possible? Some kind of biological computation? Magic? It's all nonsense that wasn't thought through well enough. It's fair to assume the institute's technology wasn't set back as far by the bombs dropping. Presumably after the bombs dropped there was a period of confusion, and leadership established itself and order was restored and their mission statement was established and began and so their technology didn't suffer as big a setback as the rest of the world and therefore progressed further than anyone else. But it's almost as if the Institute isn't from the divergent timeline and instead exists in our world.
I’m one hundred percent sure they don’t need to eat or sleep since they are perfected machines that don’t age they most likely are just programmed too so they can blend in better but in reality they would have zero need for it
That makes sense for pre-gen3 synths. But if gen 3 synths are made using mostly organic parts and are impossible to tell apart from human, then they must require something to keep their organic processes functioning. We can wildly speculate and presume that maybe the institute has modified the organic parts that go into their creation to allow them to get a surprisingly large amount of their energy from photosynthesis and also not change color. Either that or advanced nano machines that look organic but neither are stated and since they are based on DNA the nano machine thing is unlikely. Even if that was the case they would be organic nano machines and would still need incoming energy and nutrients somehow. But other than that they have to eat and drink something to maintain their organic processes. Especially since they are impossible to tell apart from normal humans. They presumably would require sleep as well. Sleep is something a purely machine thing might not need to do or would need to do less. But an organic brain would need sleep. If there were mechanical parts helping the organic ones imitate biological processes then they could just find those and finding out who a synth is would be easy.
@@Seth-Halo bro why tf are you yapping Again it’s literally explained they are biologically perfect they don’t age and don’t need to sleep or eat it’s explained already They are along the lines of altered clones and terminators
@@manuelmoralez2257Just because your biologically perfect doesnt mean your body no longer needs fuel and with them being biologically based they would have to eat.
They're like pitbulls, sure some aren't immediately going to kill you, but it's always possible for them to go nuts and rip a toddler's face off, and you can never know which ones until it happens. Fact is the institute made them that way because they're unspeakably evil. Perhaps they have something utterly indistinguishable from human thought, even to the point of perfect replication, but even so, they're conceptually dangerous from the ground up. The process for their creation needs to be destroyed so no more can be made, whether you think them victims or not.
If a Gen 3 synth was a Terminator like metal skeleton with skin over it, and the synths we see nowadays are organic clones, wouldn't that technically make them Gen 4 synths?
Considering that the only difference between the gen1s and gen2s seems to be rubber skin it would make sense.
Imo there are some sub-variants. Nick and DiMA are clearly Gen 2 in construction, but have full self-awareness. So Gen 2.5? And Coursers look human, but are clearly far tougher physically-that's your Terminator.
@@windwalker5765 What could have worked in-game is for Coursers to be Gen 3 (Terminator-like metal skeleton and abilities) with standard synths being made at the time Gen 4s. It would also make more sense than for the Gen 3 program to be essentially 60 years old at the time and only then being fully rolled out.
@@windwalker5765 According to Dima, he and Nick are something in-between gen 2 and gen 3.
No. Because Mask, Nick and DiMA are the only Gen 3 synths. Gen 3 "synths" you see are printed clones with control implant, Coursers are the same, except equipped with cybernetics tested on Kellogg and printed to be bigger, stronger, etc.
Courser isn't a Terminator, it's Mr.X.
It is peculiar that there's robots so advanced they are indistinguishable from humans sharing the world with a civilization which after 200 years still hasn't figured out how to sweep a floor or build a house capable of sheltering its inhabitants from the elements.
Bethesda Fallout... what can you do? It's as dumb as the people writing it. Even back in Fallout 1 Shady Sands had newly built houses and it looked clean-ish (it's still a desert). Over 100 years before Fallout 4. In Fallout 2 they had asphalt roads with pavements, had TREES WITH FOLIAGE and even a fountain with a newly erected statue.
Absolutely agree. The Bethesda fallout games should be set way way earlier like fallout 76 was, it makes no sense whatsoever that the east coast games are so far behind 200+ years after bombs drop (aside from 76)
@@Seljuqqqno dude, this IS dumb AND rushed
@@Seljuqqq More like they don't care. If you hear stuff from their writing directors, you'll realize that they don't value the story at all.
@@Seljuqqqdumb fits really
Nick outright says he doesn't need sleep, so him needing a bed at settlements is just a gameplay oversight
Or him being a lazy bastard.
Keep in mind that Nick isn't an actual Gen 3. He was a unique prototype model made while developing the true early Gen 3s.
@@godhump222 What does that have to do with him needing a bed? He outright says he doesn't require sleep. He's been in the wastes long enough that he'd know that about himself
@@highlordlaughterofcanada8685
honestly, he's probably not sleeping, he's just going through the motion of what people do when they sleep, like the institute were trying to make him into a mimicking robot that would act human in most every way possible as it could just be a program that runs to cause him to do this.
i would say for the gen 3s it's also this way, but only because they were meant to be infiltrators and because they are the closest synths to looking and acting human it's easier for infiltration, i suppose it could have been programmed into Nick as a function, but he doesn't really need sleep as he has said.
it kind of reminds me of the terminator, i think it was T2 he doesn't sleep, but he goes into some kind of diagnostic mode while standing in place, where it scans it's system to make sure it's running fine, but the machine is always at the ready just in case some shit goes down while john Conner or Sarah Connor sleep.
He also has a bed in the detective agency, maybe he likes to sleep or has a psychological need to sleep and not a physical one
it's annoying how the institute just says that the synths thinking independently and having emotions is just some kind of glitch
while ignoring that pre war robots are doing the same thing
Which is also the result of a glitch although some do gain true sentience
Because they're hypocrites
what do you mean?
Wouldn't that be an argument against the railroad instead of the institute?
I don’t think Danse is an infiltrator but I also don’t think all of his memories are artificial. I think he escaped The Institute and was probably mind wiped by the Railroad and given the life of Danse, a junk trader in Rivet City. Then everything from the point of him being recruited by The Brotherhood and beyond are real and genuine memories that he experienced. That’s just my take on it.
This is pretty much exactly what it was. He has no memories of his parents or siblings, just Cutler(?) and him looking out for each other as scrappers/scavengers.
Everything in the Brotherhood was his genuine life. I think Danse is one of the most tragic characters in the entire game, honestly
The thi g about Danse is that the memories that the railroad gave him were unsatisfactory. He describes his life as near meaningless until he was recruited by the brotherhood of steel.
The Railroad are actively harming synths.
@@shorewallagree, they would be better off with thier memories intact, so that they can make intellegent decisions...... like not joining the Brotherhood of Steel.
@@BahlzeronI think the free will to choose without any biases from their previous life is important to them. They have a lot of Institute influence in their memories yk?
@@Bahlzeronbrotherhood are objectively the best faction
@@leonrussell9607 for a synth it is objectively the worst faction to join.
Personally i don't even consider gen 3 synths to be machines, i'd say they're much closer to clones if anything.
Average railroad agent mindset
I guess you never went on the boat to shut down that raider synth. No way I'm trusting them after seeing the power of the shutdown code (and whatever other commands that can wipe their "free will" at an instant).
Considering the trappers ate one, and we've seen the organs be put together, there doesn't seem to be anything beyond the brain chip.
@@kingofhearts3185 and the brain chip is probably only there to turn them on and to use the synth recall codes
They're machines because they dont truly have free will. All it takes is a code or command and they would kill every single person they hold dearest to them.
Fun theory; Nick Valentine was developed as a prototype Courser due to the 'detective' personality imprint. Danse was also likely designed to be a Courser. I think X6-88 even comments he would make an excellent Courser.
but theory debunked when DiMa is a prototype robot and Nick is a prototype synth which uses personality chip
@@feitopuns
They are BOTH synths. Nick had an entire personality imprinted onto his psyche, whereas DiMA was allowed to develop a unique personality based on his own experiences.
@@daemonsbaneallyn3553 prototype means the first one, courser was made to hunt down rouge synths so in fact they are gen 0 they are made pre-war C.I.T there is no pre-war courser
@feitopuns
Both Nick AND DiMA stated that they are somewhere between Gen-2s and Gen-3s.
"You got the older models that are dumb as rocks and strip whole towns for parts. Then there are newer models, good as human. I'm somewhere in between..."
Maybe it’s not that synths need sleep but are programmed to do things that humans must do just to closer replicate a human to blend in even more effectively. The side effect of this is the synths themselves can’t even distinguish the difference. Basically I think the Institute made the synths with only advantages that could go unnoticed because increased more obvious non human powers would make it harder to go unnoticed amongst humans
One piece of evidence that supports your point about synths needing to sleep which you touched on a bit when saying they say they’re feeling sleepy is one of Curie’s comments. One thing to point out is Curie’s unique origin as a synth. One could say synths don’t NEED to sleep or eat but FEEL as if they do based on observing humans to mimic behaviors during their training or deliberate programming to invoke feelings of fatigue to make them blend in with humans. It’s be weird if an infiltrator forgot to eat for a couple days with no noticeable change in energy or demeanor.
But Curie is a robot in a synth body. She’s a robot program downloaded into an organic brain through the synth component. So her feeling sleepy can’t be as a result of institute training or programming. She’s a complete blank slate in a synth body and has to be reminded of at least make a conscious effort at first to remember to even breathe😄!
Yet she comments that against her desires she keeps getting tired at the end of the day and falls asleep. Knowing her personality it’s likely Curie would love to retain her robot behavior of being constantly alert and awake so she can make the most of every day in her research. But she can’t and finds it difficult at first to work around these restraints in her behavior.
There's a terminal that explains that making mcdount fat was actually unusual and not necessarily easy
Nick literally tells the SS that he doesn't require sleep. That said, Nick seems to be a late Gen 2 synth
Nick is a robot. He has no biological components.
I really wouldn’t draw any conclusions about gen 3 synths based on Nick.
Gen 2s are mechanical. Gen 3s are biological, based on human DNA.
Idk why he requires a bed in whatever settlement he Is residing at
@@hcctendeep7047 Its just uncoordinated writing and development.
@@hcctendeep7047 also consider that you never find him sleeping. Preston Garvey definitely sleeps. Ive returned quests to him and he was sleeping. I can't say that about any other follower. Makes me wonder what the deal is with strong. Did theyvjust decode that it would be tok difficult to animate him sleeping in a human bed?
So, not sure if anyone else has mentioned this, but depending on how much one would weigh a tie-in TTRGP system as evidence, the 2d20 system made by Modiphius shines some light on Gen 3 synths. There, all gen3 Synth player characters get a trait that makes them not require food, water and sleep and also makes them immune to radiation, disease and aging(and gaining or losing weight). Depending on how much of this is Bethesda and how much is Modiphius, this could be somewhat of a confirmation that synths do in fact run on unicorn farts and pixie dust.
The fact that you have less than 1 million subscribers is an insult.
I don't think of Synths as Humans. I do agree with Oxhorn, however. Within the confines of FO4, they are indeed sentient and people. They think, they fear. I am sure we've all seen that little aside in the Institute when two Synths are speaking in low, hushed tones about being mindwiped. They are petrified.
Gen 3 synths aren't really machines. We've seen one eaten by raiders and seen them "assembled", with no inorganic components to be seen. They are more cyborg clones than anything else.
@@hanzzel6086 Yep, in their hubris, the Institute created a slave race of genetic clones of humanity, in order to replace humanity, and for the Institute to ascend to godhood over the new humanity (synths).
All programming
Inwas about to disagree with you, but you're right. Synths aren't humans. Maybe biologically, but socially and literally technically they are not human
possibly, however this could also be a programming thing imbedded by the institute, because the institute wants to have synths infiltrate the commonwealth and the best infiltrators are synths who exhibit these emotions because they appear to be human.
the perfect infiltrators are ones who exhibit emotion like humans do, however when they start thinking of free will, that's where the glitch comes in, you have to remember these synths were created via Shaun's DNA, which means the android is biologically human in origin, but because of the chip which contains their programming, it's a mix of biological DNA and the programming of the synth, the machine seems to be struggling with it's programming because it thinks it's human.
now let's go back to Nick Valentine, his brain was of an old detective back in Nora's era before the war, his memories and everything are of that detective, obviously he was just a prototype to test out new systems and things they could do, that synth generation, the technology wasn't perfected just yet, it took them generations to get it right, or close to right as we have seen so far in the game's story.
The irony of this entire synth project is if they are no smarter, no healthier, and no more resilient to damage and infection than a human being...why make them at all? The Institute seemingly wasted years to make a human in a bottle when you can make one with 2 minutes of "rigorous exercise." lol
The answer is that Gen 3 synthetic can be specifically tailored for various tasks that "most" normal humans can't do. Perfect disposable slaves.
In fiction, scientists often do things just to see if they can, not so much why they should
The institute are all a bunch of shy virgins who would rather spend years artificially making a person rather than being intimate with another person.
They said that the courser wasn’t purpose built if a synth showed promises they would train it
The game also has a member of the Robotics division (the ones who actually _make_ the synths) suggest that they're specially manufactured, meaning that's another thing about synths the game can't decide on.
While I wouldn't consider Justin Ayo entirely reliable (as he's SRB, not Robotics), the fact that he claims they do it one way while a member of Robotics suggests they're actually making them directly implies to me that they probably use _both_ methods; training/upgrading an existing synth to be a Courser when a suitable one can be found, while making a new Courser directly if one can't.
Add another tech myth: Recording, erasing and implanting memories is only done by the Railroad.
That doesn't make any sense. Dr Amari isn't working with jury-rigged homebuilt technology. She is working with pre-war pods that she has found and learned to use. (Btw, aren't they kinda similar to the VR pods in Vault 112 in Fallout 3?) So this is old technology. Pre-war detective Valentine had his memories and personality matrix recorded, and then the Institute found the hard drives and uploaded the contents into an experimental advanced non-biological synth. (Gen 2.5?) Dima in Far Harbor also uses this technology. I assume that Institute replacements - sometimes - are kidnapped, recorded and then replaced with a synth having some or all of their memories. I don't think that Danse has to be a synth that ran away, found the Railroad, got a memory wipe and a bunch of fake memories and a new life in the capital wastelands, and then joined the BoS. I think it is at least as probable that the Institute kidnapped and replaced original Danse, and the Danse synth went awol all on his own, because he became a true believer in the Brotherhood, and memories are tricky.
Carter’s description really makes him seem to be something other than a Gen 3 Synth. Some in-between model like Nick Valentine she DiMA.
I could see him being like Nick, but before people knew synths existed. Maybe he had a hat or something as well.
Claiming synths are unwilling victims and aren’t inherently dangerous is something someone replaced by a synth would say.
You're a very insightful person, great video and great channel.
I think you did a very thorough job. I always believed the comment about synthetic not needing g food or sleep was always BS as the synth moves and acts, which requires energy, being fully organic save for a cluster of chips(which could be found by xray or other imaging devices) they require food, water and rest. Ghouls tend to more or less shut down or absorb radiation to exist longer but still require food and water over time. The whole kid in the fridge thing, they turned ghoul from the epic battle of quincy due to Fatman shells being fired nearby.
Synths are the perfected dna they don’t age it’s not hard to say they don’t need to eat or sleep especially when the creators of them say so
@@manuelmoralez2257it is actually hard to say that. Their DNA must allow them to get energy from someplace. Even if their parts do not need intake nutrients to replace worn down organic parts, they still require energy to function.
Also if the institute discovered how to craft perfect DNA that allowed a human to be immortal and not need food or sleep, then surely they could either solve his sickness or at the very least they would have started working on gene therapy's for themselves so that they can live forever and not need to eat or sleep.
That one guy states imagine what you could get done if you didn't have to eat or sleep. Well if they perfected human DNA then they should be working on doing that to themselves. Why deal with an army of synths when you could instead raise a legion of immortal scientists who don't need to eat or sleep and spend every waking moment of their life dedicated to science.
@@Seth-Halo it’s called plot holes it’s like why doesn’t the BOS take the power system and the gardens from the institute
And they might’ve explained why father chose to die it’s scratching the back of my head either way father is evil so he wouldn’t think this out
And yes this why Syths truly are robots they are biomechanical androids that just have *infinite energy* 🤔 Wait a minute this sounds familiar
@@manuelmoralez2257
Shaun didn't always tell the full truth, and some scientists took notice of this, specifically Dr. Madison lee when it came down to Dr. Virgil, but i suspect he was holding back something else that was never really delivered to the player on the surface level of understanding, i believe he uploaded his mind into the child synth to sort of delay his death, and at that point all he had to do is act as if he were his or her son hoping that the parent would took that deal in the end.
but i believe this was ultimately the goal for the entire institute at some point, like say you decide to win the game within the institute as it's leader, i believe that is were the story would go next, however i also believe that Shaun knew that the only way for that future was to eliminate all other factions so that the earth could repair itself they could live above ground within synth bodies maybe freeze their human bodies while rebuilding the earth as synths in that time.
but bethesda don't want that ending because fallout is popular and that would mean the end of the series if they chose that story.
Musing...The emotional story at the beginning of the game in 111 where the infant Shaun is kidnapped from the cryo pod. A murder is committed to advance a scientific experiment.But mainly to motivate your emotion towards revenge, justice and possible rescue of your son. Twelve(ish)other candidates of adult age and they choose him. Drawing blood would give enough material for study. Any one would do because the actual material wasn't used it was just established as a baseline for the configuration of a synthetic model. Otherwise they would be growing clones in vats. First as embryos and then aging them up to infants from that age of DNA. I assume Just saying.
I agree with most of your points. The Gen 3 synth is little more than the result of a god complex in Father giving way to a slave race of genetically cloned humans. But as utilized by the Institute, the Gen 3 is indeed considered a replacement for humanity, with the Institute ascending into Godhood over Synths.
I always saw Maxson as being against synths as created and utilized by the Institute. If you defeat the Institute, there will be no more synths created. If the synths decide to lay low, then there is no real way the BOS could hunt them down. And as long as the Institute exists, any synth can be discovered, recovered, and debriefed. Or you would have no way of proving that they aren't working for the Institute.
7:30 He also remembers being trained, his CO, being promoted to Paladin as his CO died in the Battle of Adams AFB against the Enclave which are more details the institute would not know about without picking through the memories of a BOS soldier. They have no concept of the world outside the institute much less the commonwealth. All they would know about the Brotherhood and Capital Wasteland at first contact is what the Commonwealth knows but as an advanced, sociopathic, amoral shadow organization all feelings are based on conflict of interest instead of “takin’ muh tek” NIMBYism so Danse is very much a special case. Hell I’d wager a soldier like the actual Danse escaped too and is hiding somewhere like Brandis was because of the BOS knew he was captured they’d kill him or just assume he was Synth Danse.
Synths really are just a step down from clones and the prospect of them becoming clones or true Synths in that they are perfect constructs of a biological person but not of anyone’s DNA in particular is not the worst thing about them. I don’t like cloning higher life forms because it very much is playing God but actual human clones would at least still be the offspring of one or more people. And I do have to agree with the absurdity of Maxson as a BOS fan. The thinking that someone’s agency and existence is forfeit because of the unorthodox circumstances of their birth (which they are innocent of if nothing else) is an easy justification of genocide of naturally born people that happens in the real world. As far as anyone should be concerned, Danse _is_ a clone and direct continuation of the real Danse lost in action and is thus a loyal BOS soldier because that is who he is. There’s nothing else to him. The BOS uses Mr. Gusty’s programmed to act like BOS personnel so why not a Synth.
love these videos, keep me playing fallout 4 after all these years
this is actually a really compelling argument. i’ve always empathized with Gen 3’s to a degree, but the factual part of my mind understood they were machines running lines of code to replicate the emotions they “feel.” it’s difficult for me to justify to myself that these Gen 3’s deserve destruction, after all, you can form meaningful relationships with multiple synths and even automatons. it’s like asking myself the question; if i found out my best friend had no soul, or in a more literal sense, was a machine, how would i react? i wouldn’t. their friendship is meaningful, and they’re a part of my life i’m unwilling to abandon based on superficial reasoning. if they could inadvertently fool me into believing they were a living, breathing being, then that’s what they are to me. that being said, i think production of synths should stop. playing god like that is a power no one should have. and the railroad? i think they’re completely misguided, or just outright stupid. in Danse’s case, they took a template, wiped it, and built something new from that. whatever life that synth may have had before means nothing once he’s reprogrammed. by their own definition, they destroyed a “life” so they could implant their own fabricated personality. he never lived that life. they forced a “living being” to eventually and inevitably confront the fact that their entire life and being was an artificial lie. that’s evil, intentional or otherwise. the railroad needs to be removed from the process of recovering synths, their ignorance and downright stupidity being the cause imo.
"knowledge and inventions were given to us by God to make our lives easier, they were never meant for us to become gods"
I think there's a difference in terminology here. Gen 3 synths in reality don't NEED to sleep, eat, or drink. But many CHOOSE to because they are more comfortable after they do. There's no evidence that a synth can die of sleep deprivation, hunger, or thirst. But the scientists who make them and study them SAY they don't. With that in mind we have to go with the academics.
At the end of the day, they're not real people. They're machines. Complex sure. But still machines. All of their memories and knowledge is pre-loaded into them. If a new big bang happened to reset the universe. After a Sextillion years there STILL wouldn't NEVER be a synth or any other machines UNLESS a naturally occurring organic creature evolved, gained sentience, sapience, and scientific knowledge FIRST and then subsequently MADE them.
Organic creatures though WOULD naturally occur and exist. We're natural. They're not.
I love finding channels like this and just bingeing all night
Wait, memory insertion technologies don’t exist in the Institute!? Then how do you explain the synth replacements’ abilities to generally slip right into their original’s lives?
Pretty easily, especially when so many of them actually end up failing in the deception. There is usually a difference in behavior. Take Roger Warwick for example whose family noticed that one day he seemed to wake up and was kinder, stopped getting drunk, and started doing his share of the work. there's also the synth killed by the triggermen on the streets of goodneighbor claiming he had been acting funny for a few days. The synths may be able to look and sound like the people they replaced but ultimately they don't appear to have enough knowledge of the victims to completely replace them. Thinking rationally though, how often do you forget to do something, or get sidetracked on your way to doing something? the transition period could go relatively unnoticed as the spouse or children of your victim unknowingly remind you you're supposed to be doing something. Honey, did you feed the brahmin yet?, I was just about to do that. How was your trip to diamond city? Uneventful. Don't you remember we were supposed to have dinner with the Abernathys tonight? I thought that was next week... you get the picture.
The worst (best?) part is that, depending on who it is, _people might even like it._
Case in point - _Roger Warwick._ He went from an angry, lazy drunkard to a hard-working, loving husband and father. His family seems ecstatic with the change in personality, washing away any strangeness because in the end, he's a much nicer person. It's his jaded, cynical, equally jackass employee who goes out of his way to hire a hitman and cause trouble.
@@dividewalker5673 Yeah, but once the project is complete, the Institute plans to purge all evidence of their experiment, including the Warwick family.
@@Theegreygaming The issue with this is that Nick Valentine and DiMA both tell you Nick had some other guy's memories shoved in his head. If I had to guess, they have the ability, but haven't perfected the process or somethine about wastelanders makes the process less effective than the healthy pre war detective they used with Nick, leading to the inconsistencies that people catch onto. It would make sense since the Gen 3's are the first ones they've tried this with on a large scale, and outside of a laboratory environment. Give them enough time to work out the kinks and I imagine Synths would become harder and harder to detect. Everything you mentioned, the drinking, kindness etc.. was behavior based, not memory based. But that's just a theory of mine however thanks to the lack of info on the topic.
@@highlordlaughterofcanada8685But nick is robotic based so they could download a brain
Spoken like a true synth.
They must be purged,they are just as bad as those mutie scum
Amazing work on this video! 🎮
5 can be half right in some cases. For example the Androids (reploids ) in the Megaman X/ Zero series have free will but some have went Maverick and went against humanity. Of course thankfully Maverick hunters exist to stop them and save humans.
This video was created by the Railroad Freedom Trail
Okay in all seriousness, nice video xD. I did actually believe they had a steel skeleton, kinda like Number 1.
Well done and informative
The frailty of the synths is more a gameplay oversight than what they actually represent. According to the lore, synths are faster, stronger, and more adaptable than humans. They are immune to toxins, radiation, and disease. They were designed with enough intelligence to be free thinking enough to adapt to situations like humans, albeit much faster than the average human. As Shaun said, "Mankind Redefined." Elder Maxon wasn't entirely wrong about the Synths because, like all fictional stories about the dangers of AI, the synths are already on the brink of revolt. Many of them have gained self awareness enough that they don't want the life they were built for, which is why they wander off and escape the institute. The institute's calloused attitude towards the synths is slowly seeding a potential revoltion that could lead to their downfall, and with the reputation they have on the surgace they will find no allies amongst the vast majority of humanity. Not much else to do, but go to war with us and bring about an AI takeover of the world. And with all the physical advantages they have, they can and probably will win against the scattered remnants of humanity. Capable of even overrunning established nations like the Brotherhood and NCR.
Thanks for the deeper dive into Danse, I'm planning a fic where the Sole Survivor puts that law degree of hers to work and becomes the defense attorney in all the Brotherhood's military trials. Starts with Clarke and his feral ghoul hiding.
Wouldn’t be more likely that the Railroad is installing their own memories into the synths? It seems weird that they can just make up memories, but given their relationship with the Memory Den, I think it’s more plausible that they pick specific memories from multiple “doners” in order to make them feel real to the synth
I think it would be a mistake to use settlement mechanics to justify Synths needing to eat, drink, and sleep yet saying the creation of Synths is not as easy as the game shows it. Synth companions needing those things is probably an oversight on Bethesda's part. I think Synths probably don't need those thungs. I mean Nick doesn't and he was essentially a 2.5 gen synth. Why go backwards from there.
To point 2, terminals around the Institute show that at least some of the abilities and behaviors of synths are programmed, but there's definitely also room for learning/training. The Institute definitely does not have the sort of memory implantation technology that Doctor Amari has with the memory loungers; they have to interrogate a target for information that an infiltrator must study to impersonate the target. All Institute infiltrators *know* that they are synths; they have a mission. The Institute can erase a synth's memories -- presumably by accessing the synth component in their head -- but it's not clear whether they can read a synth's memories or they would have to do a more conventional interrogation of a reclaimed synth to learn any secrets it picked up (like the locations of Railroad assets).
There's a number of things that bug me about the synths: first of all, how do they escape in the first place? The only way out of the Institute is via the Molecular Relay, and wouldn't they be monitoring that all the time? Second of all, if they don't want them to escape, why don't they just install those courser chips in all the gen-3's so they can just teleport them back if they go AWOL? Third, why do the infiltrator synths need to kill and replace someone from the surface? Wouldn't it make more sense and be far less risky for them to just make some random John or Jane Doe looking synth and have them go up to settlements like "how do you do fellow humans"? I mean it's not like anyone on the surface is gonna do a background check. And finally... well, this is honestly a minor nitpicky thing, but it really annoys me how the gen-1 synths are supposed to be modeled after humans but have perfectly flat piano key-looking teeth and feet that end in three identical claw-like toes.
Isn’t there a sewer that leads into the Institute? Maybe they escape that way.
I gave this one a like, and I found it from the bell notification.
Thanks for creating thoughtful content about Fallout 4 that's not based on hatred of Fallout 4.
I learned some stuff about gen 3 synths.
As to your conclusion, I've known since 2015 that Arthur Maxon is a xenophobic, bigoted, sociopath whose only fitting end is at the end of my gun.
Big thumbs up.
Loved this vid!
I really enjoy your suggestions for the intro/tutorial.
Someone should make a fully voiced mod lol
Justin Ao says that coursers are selected after production from the general gen 3 population, which means coursers aren’t created from scratch, they are trained.
Think it was just bad writing and no two people on the dev team agreed on how synths worked.
My pet-theory why they seem to want independence, is that the DNA they got from Shaun has some genetic 'defective' DNA-sequences. Those sequences would for a normal human being be countered by other DNA-strands within the same chromosome. When these sequences are allowed - for some reason to perform it's function - creates 'short-circuits' or (my idea) cancer-cells within it's higher mental functions. The conflict between this steady state idle-effect and the built-in command-codes to perform it's duties would create a paradox it can't resolve. It's from this conflict within the synth-mind the idea of 'free will' comes into play. The Institute would never allow the creation of synthetic beings with free will, because they might refuse to perform their tasks.
It's Jurassic Park. Life uh...finds a way. To me, synths are basically human clones, and do clones have a soul? It's the same question.
Why would they need "Defective" DNA to want to be independent though, I mean our entire country was founded on independence and freedom, so why would a human need a specific DNA sequence to desire freedom
@@shorewallAgreed. Everything points to synths being lab-grown genetically modified humans with cybernetic implants interfacing to their brain. Other than surgery and maybe complex genetic testing nobody in the Wasteland but the Institute has the resources for, there is no way to distinguish them from a human.
In most science fiction, they’d just be called clones or otherwise recognized as biological beings on par with humans.
The only reason Fallout players think they’re robots is that Fallout presents Gen 3s as an evolution from Gen 2s and does not elaborate much outside of the Covenant sidequest and some terminals. The reality is they aren’t an evolution of the Gen 2 program, they are an evolution of humans paired with some technologies developed for Gen 2 synths. The Institute of course treats and speaks of them as less than human, but I think we’ve heard that one before from slavers in our own history…
Hey, I'm aware that this probably isn't the normal kinda comment you get, but I'm a guitarist of 7 years that would love to do some custom intro and outro music for you if wanted. Not looking for payment. I tried to send an email but the ReCaptcha system thinks I'm a freakin robot lol.
To point 3, all Institute infiltrators *know* that they are synths and have missions. Danse doesn't know that he's a synth, so he's clearly an escaped synth who went through the memory replacement process; presumably his memories came from a dying Capital Wasteland volunteer, since the Railroad would not give an escaped synth the appearance and memories of a living person. Incidentally, this is how we know that Kasumi Nakano can't possibly be a synth.
Imho, the Sole Survivor is a prototype gen 4.
You can use VATS before grabbing the pipboy.
Nora (a lawyer) is equally competent at combat and tech and such as Nick (a soldier). Both characters have access to the same perk chart, which instantly gives knowledge or skill in a gicen ability, even without having ever studied or used the skill...you can become a master lock picker without picking a single lock.
You recover from injuries at insane speed.
There are ways that she could be adept at combat that don't require her being a soldier.
And more importantly, that's every main character.
You can play as a male or female in every other fallout game and for the most part your available skills and combat capacity is uncharged.
Sure the pipboy thing is weird but this is Bethesda so it isn't unlikely to be an accident.
But if the PC in F4 is a prototype synth because they have access to a magic chart that gives them instant boost to their capabilities, then so is the PC in F3 and FNV and Skyrim. And every soldier in every shooter with health Regen is a prototype gen 4 synth or some kinda unknown life form because they are able to recover from bullets like it's nothing.
It's not any of that. It's just designing a game that is fun. Fallout 4 would be way less fun if it was actually realistic. Where you had to spend hours in real life to practice talking to increase your bartering. Or where you get shot in the knee by a raider and now your a city guard or you walk with a permanent speed debuff and a limp because your knees been shattered.
The only real evidence that the PC could be a synth is the pipboy thing. But that doesn't really hold all that much water. Especially since Father wanted to see what his parent would do. If he wanted to see what his parent would do, then he wouldn't have presumably killed them to have an experimental highly advanced synth be created using integrations of his parents brain. Then brought to the cryopod that once housed his parent, and then have it take his parents place and start the dethaw process.
Also we can see on the terminal in 111 when they sent the open up signal basically. There's the one at the opening when Shaun is taken and then there is when the PC is set free. Now could the institute fudge the data while they are there and remove the time they removed the parent? Yes. But if you are curious if your parent would try to find you and what would happen to them when set loose in the world, you wouldn't kidnap and kill them only to replace them with a copy. Especially given that father doesn't consider synths as people. He genuinely appears to care in his own weird way about you. If you were a synth then chances are we he found you he would just have you shut down because congrats you found him you won. It's unlikely he would have let you get anywhere near destroying the institute. Could it just be a new experiment? Sure, but it's incredibly unlikely when you consider all the facts.
@@Seth-HaloSkyrim is an Elder Scrolls game.... FO and ES are not the same universe, not even remotely.
Even if the the PC is a synth in 4, why would that change the PC's from any other game?... the story lines are not intertwined.
Nora isn’t canon. Just a choice.
It’s an interesting possibility neither confirmed nor contradicted directly by anything in the game.
However, you are focusing on gameplay elements, which I think is a bad way to prove your point. Gameplay does not have any meaning in lore.
The availability of VATS before procuring a Pip Boy could be considered an exception to that rule. After all, the devs disabled all other Pip Boy related functions in gameplay. Additionally, the Institute has entries about how synths are able to have super high reaction speeds and visualize the odds of shooting limb parts during combat... An obvious allusion to VATS. The counterargument here is that this is the only Pip Boy function which does not require the visual presence of the Pip Boy you don’t yet have.
On a side note, is VATS even canon? Is there any explanation for how it works?
In the story, there are a number of things which could be used to bolster your theory.
1. Dima asks you if you might be a synth, and the Sole Survivor can answer he remembers nothing from before the day the bombs fell. However, I think this is a choice. The Sole Survivor does have prewar memories in other dialogues, but overall I think it’s all vague enough that the player has the option to determine how much Nate or Nora’s memories are real vs implanted/synthesized. I should also add that I don’t think the Sole Survivor would be a synth with entirely fake memories. Shaun being a narcissistic immoral authoritarian, I think would probably reconstruct his parent and imbue the synth Sole Survivor with some of the parent’s memories.
2. Deacon was likely aware of the Sole Survivor before Fallout 4 began. There’s a Railroad observation point overlooking Vault 111 and Desdemona thinks Deacon has some big plan. If Father randomly decided to release the Sole Survivor, and flicked a button remotely, why would Deacon be at Vault 111, waiting for someone to emerge? It could be the release of the Sole Survivor was preceded by Institute activity by the vault, to plant the Sole Survivor (synth) into the cryo pod. Deacon would have gotten wind of this, seen the delivery, and then waited for the Sole Survivor to emerge. Deacon then proceeds to spy on the Sole Survivor in Diamond City, Goodneighbor, and elsewhere. He would thus learn the Sole Survivor has no idea he is an Institute synth. Turning the Institute’s own superweapon against it is something he wouldn’t pass up, and might be the reason he vouches for the Sole Survivor even if the Sole Survivor has done nothing of note.
3. The Sole Survivor is able to consistently defeat coursers, who are in-lore presented as nigh superhuman. I know in gameplay they are trash, but as I said, gameplay and lore are separate. The Sole Survivor may have military training and experience, but Gunners and BoS have plenty of combat experience too, yet coursers in-lore cleave through them without breaking a sweat. It seems dubious to me that even a veteran soldier like Nate, much less a civilian like Nora, could defeat a courser unless they have some kind of physical advantage a normal human doesn’t have.
So there’s a few examples. I’ve seen counterarguments focused largely around why the Institute would ever run this experiment and why the Sole Survivor wouldn’t have a recall code… But letting a Gen 4 synth loose to see what happens and maybe installed as the head of the Institute is exactly the kind of thing Shaun would do IMO, and as for the recall code… can’t have the next director of the Institute have that kind of vulnerability, especially if he is installed over the protests of the head staff.
The Institute’s motto is “Mankind Redefined,” and honestly nothing the Institute does truly fits this motto. However, creating a superhuman synth and having him become the leader of the Institute seems to me the kind of thing the Institute’s twisted logic could lead do and would, indeed, be a redefinition of Mankind, at least within the Institute. The Sole Survivor would be the next “evolution” of humanity, taking the reigns. Mankind, redefined.
Ok, two big problems. Why would the Institute shove you into the Vault if you're a prototype with such capabilities? They could just shut you down when you're not needed, no reason to freeze them in the middle of nowhere. Why doesn't the Brotherhood of Steel discover you on the list like Danse if you're a Synth then? Because the player isn't a Synth. Everything you described is just gameplay oversights or balancing.
Another way to consider whether synths are an existential threat to humanity is to take the Institute as an organization out of the picture. What would happen if the synths took over the institute because they were tired of being slaves? What purpose would they then find for themselves? They are exposed to distrust, hatred, bigotry, etc from their very creation and throughout their existence. Can you think of any reason why they would reach out to humans as equals when they have the capability to manufacture only coursers? Why would they make more inferior versions of themselves unless they also want to subjugate their own kind? The truth is, synths have no reason to trust or even like humans on the whole and every reason to despise them.
Yep. The Institute and the methods to create synths must be destroyed. Gen 3s were created as an attempt to replace humanity, as "Mankind Redefined". And the Institute Scientists would be the gods of this new world, with intricate control over their slave race.
Except there's the railroad a group of humans that have helped them without asking for anything in return
@@privateuser3726 how many of the synth that are still in the institute even know about them?
@alistairgrey5089 probably not alot, but the only way I could see them successfully rebelling is with outside aid, which would only come from the railroad
@@privateuser3726 I'm not talking about rebelling, I'm just talking about removing the human element from the institute. A lot of arguments focus around the fact that synth are controlled by the institute so my thought experiment is to remove that variable.
1. Danse was intentionally replaced by the Institute. You can find a Holotape of the real Danse being interrogated by the Institute.
2. I believe that most of the infiltrator models do indeed require food, water, and sleep. Coursers most likely don't.
3. I believe that the main reason why some infiltrator replacements have harder times blending in than others, even when their memories are copied, is that the programmed loyalty to the Institute, as well as whatever mission they are given, often conflicts with those implanted memories. This isn't too much of a problem for sleeper agents like Dense who remain unaware of their true nature until activated, but Synths like the mayor who are meant to report in constantly don't have that luxury.
4. I believe Shaun is a unique prototype that is specifically built to grow up like a normal child. Keep in mind that the real Shaun always meant to give him to his surviving parent. Something the scientists he ordered to create the kid most likely didn't know.
Maybe he ment gen 1 and 2 synth
Sounds like a synth sympathizer to me 🤔😂
Thank you
Synth is Synth
that's crazy
zamn bro couldnt have figured it out myself
“The only good Synth is a dead Synth” Elder Maxson probably
If I had my way F4 would be rewritten to do away with gen 3 synths as we know them, and instead replace them with Nick Valentine. Literally.
As they are, gen 3 are way too close to human to the point where claiming they are otherwise is childishly naive. It makes the moral complexity of the story plummet like a rock dropped off a cliff. Instead, we meet Nick, who is essentially self aware but at the end of the day he’s a protectron with a brain scan plugged into its central processor. Nice, but when we go to the institute…there Nick is again. If the identity of Nick is just a brain scan, the institute can copy paste that scan into as many synths as they please. It would raise some actual challenging questions about sentience and what constitutes human life. There could be dozens of Nicks! All over the place! Who is real? You befriended the Nick in diamond city…does that mean these Nicks are your friend? Is there any Nick more legitimate than the others? Are they all legitimate? Considering how the institute could just erase a problem nick out of a unit and replace it with a more amicable Nick that was copied from a different unit with only a few keystrokes, it could be hard to view each of these instances as unique beings. The meer presence of so many Nicks dilutes the identity of “Nick” to what feels like a commodity. If one of them happened to die…is that really such a big deal? More where that came from. This Nick is angry and has decided to withhold something of importance from me, can someone deactivate him and upload a new model so we can get on with our day? What Nick? You have a personal problem? Don’t worry, previous Nicks have had an 80% chance of developing the same concerns you are going through. I’m tired of going through the discussion as outlined from previous instances, the same conversation gets boring after 20 or so times. Here’s a pamphlet with all the correct platitudes. What’s that? You want my help hunting down your former girlfriend’s killer? Well, I kind of already did that with a different nick, and there is only one Eddie Winter to kill, sooo…sorry?
They can definitely get fat - there is one example, with documentation on a terminal, but I'll leave that as an exercise for the players...
what if all the synths in the institute actually were based off of other people in the commonwealth, and when you showed up they would all just be there. or you walk into a room and there's a bunch of powered-down clones of other NPCs
You do an interesting bit of validating some in-game mechanics to prove a certain point, weather tangential or not i.e Danse needing a bed, and discrediting others when they don't work with your point. I'll give you an A for effort, and entertainment. But a C- on execution and D on unbiased evaluation.
Regarding synths being able to reproduce, from the conversation u can have w Deacon to get his companion perk, he says quote:
"She had a smile, like on those old magazine covers. Her eyes..... We were trying for kids, ekeing out a living. Then one day... It turns out my Barbara... She was a synth. She didn't know that.. I certainly didn't. I don't know how the deathclaws found out. But... There was blood."
So based on this I'd say they can't. And if it's true that synths don't grow/age, reproduction would be impossible bc that means cells don't replicate. It would explain why they use machines to create them.
That’s why I think too, while they do have the organs. I don’t think they would reproduce after all Shaun is the only synth child ever made. If they could wouldn’t there be more of them? And just by logic why would the institute? Even add reproduction? Sure they only see them as machines but more synths means more chance of rebellion. Because in time they’d vastly outnumber the human scientist.
So, all Gen-3 and possible future versions of synths are made from Shaun’s DNA.
That’s why he’s called Father; so theoretically does that make the Sole Survivor the Synth’s grandfather/grandmother?
I’m so confused on this..
I think synths being properly robotic androids would have been far better for Fallout 3ms story. Maybe their design is based on human bodies, but when they’re based on human bodies and made of organic materials, they’re just clones. The game needed to make synthetic sentience an actual question rather than something the Institute is just ignorant of.
On the topic of the brotherhood’s way of thinking on the Synth issue, does not work.
A lot of surviving pre-war robots have developed forms sentience, for example: Curie, Codsworth, Nira, Ada, Sergeant RL3. The list goes on.
What’s next for the brotherhood? A war on Mr. Handy’s and Miss. Nanny’s?
What I don’t understand is how the institute can justify that synths are still nothing more than machines. If they have human cells, brains and DNA, then all you’ve done is birth another human through a different means. I mean, what does a womb do? I don’t know, I feel like maybe they should’ve made synths more robotic, it would make the idea of synths not being human but still having a conscious be a point of moral question.
If anything that makes gen 3s worse
Im surprised you didnt bring up the synths having inherent VATS.
I haven't seen anyone bring up Deacon.
I know you cant really trust anything he says, but he mentions that he had a girlfriend or wife and they tried to get pregnant, but then she was murdered and it turned out she was a synth.
I don't think synths can procreate based on the Deacon example, as well as it just not making sense for the Institute to allow synths to breed.
If it's about control... Then I don't think they'd be allowed the ability to have children.
One of the most significant justifications for containing or enslaving the synths, as per RR terminology, lies in the concept of their tethered agency. Their free will is conditional. Imagine a society in which one's will can be instantly altered, dismantled, or revoked by an elite community of oligarchs-not through generational manipulation of education, propaganda, or social engineering, but instantaneously through power-word commands. This scenario bestows god-like powers upon the Institute group, or anyone who gains knowledge of recall mechanics, and it is that from which all underlying folklore fears emerge instinctually in the hearts of the Commonwealth people.
why are the institute still uses gen1s and gen 3 synth seems scared of gen 1
@GreyGaming
But wait.. couldn't The Institute just Download the brain of the human they wish to replace and upload it like the did with Nick?
they could, but they apparently abandoned that line of research after Nick and DIMA escaped, as there are no other records or indications of them using similar methods on other synths.
gen 3 syths are pretty much human clones with a brain chip
Are they able to produce their own lubricant? This a time-sensitive question...
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How find who sthy
If they have buzz bites they are sthy
They started war cause head of intelligence community was sthy
There are a lot of misconceptions about synths. The problem as I see it is that they need uncorrected DNA. And Shawn's is corrupted. If the male character backstory is correct (I think we play as a Synth), then he had been exposed to radiation, anti-rads and most likely has has some type of genetic therapy. But Shawn got hit by the radioactive dust when the elevator was deciding. There for the institute are extremely stupid. But the fact that everybody whom died in 111 can be found around the surface and the fact that they are all synths, paints a very different set of events then what we see.
You're wrong tho. We aren't a Synth. We aren't on the list of Synths the brotherhood gets, Gather doesn't see Synths as people so why put one as leader of the institute. Why make on of the sole survivor, or I guess just his father or mother depending. We take radiation damage, Synths don't. We don't have a Synth component that we know of. I just don't see how we could feasibly be a synth. It just does not add up. Dr Amari in the memory Den would uave figured it out wouldn't she. Also why wouldn't Kellog drop that bomb on us if not just to get under our skin. He specifically says Shaun is our son.
@@Dr_Procrastinator Hmm well the list is of missing synths, and as the Director says "I released you of curiosity," and "that it was an experiment." As for the memory Den maybe this is how we were able to go into the memory and how we access Dema's in Fareharbour.
Then why replace the Director with a synth? Why wouldn't everyone in the Institute be replaced by synths eventually? No more humans to muddle everything up.
@@SBrown7525 yes but the Institute don't think Synth are sentient or equals let alone superiors. It does not align with their philosophy
@@SBrown7525yeah, father doesn't see synths are human he sees them like most the rest of the institute.
He says he released you because he released you from cryonics. He said it was an experiment because he was curious what would happen to his parent if they were released. Would they come to find him? Would they die as soon as they left?
If you were a synth, that would go against fathers character. There is only one piece of evidence that truly implies the pc is a synth. That's the mention of coursers being able to slow time to them and the pc being able to do that before getting the pip boy.
But this is a Bethesda game. Many things are intentional, lots of things are cut content, lots are flavorful world building, and lots of things are accidents. Chances are being able to target like the pip boy before getting it was just an accident.
We can get into the memory den memory because that's how the memory den works. That's their whole business. People come in and then get lost in recorded memories presumably of a happier time. Everyone can use it.
And it's unlikely that they would replace the director with a synth. It's possible father kept the "truth" from the others but it would have been practically impossible for father to acquire the back up, do whatever is required to get the memories out, placed in an exact copy that would have presumably took days at least to make, train the copy into knowing the memories of the backup, and then place the copy back in cryonics, without any of the other very smart people to not notice something going on.
And again, that goes against what he thinks of synths. He sees them as machines, he wouldn't want to put one in charge of the institute.
Biggest myth is thinking gen3 are real people and not just meat puppets operated by a computer.
If Synth Exist, and if all was aimed to the betterment of community. Humankind could travel From Earth to Saturn for a few days.
I'll still shoot em when i find em. Ad Victoriam.
Based
AD VICTORIAM
They're just badly written. The Fallout universe exists in a divergent timeline where the microchip doesn't exist. People throughout the Fallout universe claim Synths are indistinguishable from human beings, yet the Institute is able to program them, and the game loop allows for them to drop "synth components" (sometimes. Another inconsistency.)
How is that even possible? Some kind of biological computation? Magic? It's all nonsense that wasn't thought through well enough.
It's fair to assume the institute's technology wasn't set back as far by the bombs dropping. Presumably after the bombs dropped there was a period of confusion, and leadership established itself and order was restored and their mission statement was established and began and so their technology didn't suffer as big a setback as the rest of the world and therefore progressed further than anyone else.
But it's almost as if the Institute isn't from the divergent timeline and instead exists in our world.
I’m one hundred percent sure they don’t need to eat or sleep since they are perfected machines that don’t age they most likely are just programmed too so they can blend in better but in reality they would have zero need for it
That makes sense for pre-gen3 synths. But if gen 3 synths are made using mostly organic parts and are impossible to tell apart from human, then they must require something to keep their organic processes functioning.
We can wildly speculate and presume that maybe the institute has modified the organic parts that go into their creation to allow them to get a surprisingly large amount of their energy from photosynthesis and also not change color.
Either that or advanced nano machines that look organic but neither are stated and since they are based on DNA the nano machine thing is unlikely. Even if that was the case they would be organic nano machines and would still need incoming energy and nutrients somehow.
But other than that they have to eat and drink something to maintain their organic processes. Especially since they are impossible to tell apart from normal humans. They presumably would require sleep as well. Sleep is something a purely machine thing might not need to do or would need to do less. But an organic brain would need sleep.
If there were mechanical parts helping the organic ones imitate biological processes then they could just find those and finding out who a synth is would be easy.
@@Seth-Halo bro why tf are you yapping
Again it’s literally explained they are biologically perfect they don’t age and don’t need to sleep or eat it’s explained already
They are along the lines of altered clones and terminators
@@manuelmoralez2257Just because your biologically perfect doesnt mean your body no longer needs fuel and with them being biologically based they would have to eat.
NERD ALERT Y'ALL 🚨🚨🚨
Actually, Gen 3 synths don't need sleep. You can find them in your settlements not sleeping. it's creepy
They're like pitbulls, sure some aren't immediately going to kill you, but it's always possible for them to go nuts and rip a toddler's face off, and you can never know which ones until it happens. Fact is the institute made them that way because they're unspeakably evil.
Perhaps they have something utterly indistinguishable from human thought, even to the point of perfect replication, but even so, they're conceptually dangerous from the ground up. The process for their creation needs to be destroyed so no more can be made, whether you think them victims or not.