Rust, zig and carbon: Hype, hope or hell programming languages? - Desiree Santos and Michael Fait
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- čas přidán 8. 10. 2023
- The next generation of programming languages is always hype which we need to keep our eyes on. Our Technology Radar is an opinionated guide to technology frontiers in which to speed up and keep us updated. This talk aims to walk through exploring rust, zig and carbon programming languages ecosystem, limitations and the problem solves, and together understand the hype, hope and hell.
www.thoughtworks.com/xconf - Věda a technologie
We need Zig to work. The only real alternative to be honest.
As a embedded C++ dev, I think Zig is the real deal. I like Rust but it is too much. I know people are not always crazy good at developping in industries and Zig makes programming easy whereas Rust is a pain to get fluent in. Other all, I think Zig gets the best of everything:
- One language for building and coding
- AMAZING compile times
- Unlike Rust, you are not forced into specific design patterns to please the compiler
- You could take a C, C++ dev and make them feel confortable using zig in a matter of days
- if you need to import C code in Zig, just include it and it's done, no fancy complicated things
- need to cross compile ? Zig buildsystem will pull the libc version/zig standard library/... you want and compile it for you
Overall it feels great and not plague by complex macros, preprocessor etc
yeah, Zig has the most intuitive and just overall great metaprogramming capabilities. Comptime just feels right? i guess, And no witchery, you dont need to learn another language to beautifully express your intent to the compiler
@@rakaboy1619 exactly I get the feeling of having C simplicity, the python "just write some shit and it works" and the compile time of " why did I pull up with C++ garbage templates that can't even enable to link into the fields of a struct"
Do you have an opinion on ODIN?
@@chickenstrangler3826 only heard of the name.
skill issue
0:05 - Talk and speaker introductions
0:55 - Motivation for this talk
3:38 - Rust overview
6:33 - Rust performance
9:33 - Rust reliability
11:49 - Rust productivity
14:05 - Rust summary
14:53 - Zig overview
21:22 - Why zig?
26:46 - Zig, a simple language
30:08 - Compile time in zig
30:11 - Zig compiler & build system
33:47 - Zig summary
34:35 - Carbon overview
35:49 - A successor for C++
37:48 - Carbon summary
38:24 - Hype, hope and hell
thank you!
I've been spending the last 2 weeks playing around with zig. A bonus as a C++ dev by day is its ability to be used as C++ compiler and even build system.
I thought it could be used as a C compiler but not as a C++ compiler?
@@andrewdunbar828 Zig has an archiver, C compiler, C++ compiler, dlltool.exe, lib.exe, ranlib, objcopy, and rc.exe
Rust is definitely not hype, already has very serious mainstream traction. Zig certainly has the potential, but not serious mainstream adoption (yet!). Zig is definitely not hype. Carbon, I like the idea of it, but it's in extremely slow development. I think it's going to miss its window of opportunity. So I wouldn't necessarily call Carbon hype, it will just be a Johnny-come-lately to the party and probably therefore not see widespread adoption, if and when it's even finished.
The obvious language that wasn’t mentioned was Herb Sutter’s cppfront, which implements a new syntax for C++, giving 100% compatibility and much greater safety.
This is what Carbon should be. The problem with saying there will be a C++ successor is that C++ code isn't going anywhere. It will be in the world 100 years from now.
C++ will eventually be it's own successor or a new language will be modern C++ that sits on the Iceberg that is legacy C++.
Bjarne wants to do it. Stutter wants to do it. I think eventually it will be done its just a matter of who.
@@ska4dragonsZig will be overtaking C/C++/RUST in the coming years for new projects.
There's also Sean Baxter's Circle.
Great presentation, thank you. Rust is cool. Zig is cooler. I started with Rust long before Zig, but of late I spend more time and effort learning Zig. Carbon i have hears about it, but it is unlikely i will consider it.
I’m just starting with Rust, I like it, but I see more and more comments like yours. Thanks for sharing your experience!
i hope i live to see zig win but im interested in try carbon coz ive alr tried rust
Whenever I hear "no runtime" for Rust, I think "well..." 🙂 I mean there's a panic handling stack, a bounds checker, ... and probably a bunch of other things baked into the binary.
Idiomatic Rust doesn't have to do bounds checking on every array access; the iterator already checked the bounds. If you mean lifetime checking for calling free(), that's happening at compile time.
And yeah, there's gonna be panic handling code in the final executable, but the alternative is undefined behavior.
wait till you hear about c and c++
Zig
Zig’s philosophy of being a programming language _and_ a toolchain reminds me a lot to Nix.
ZICK dude!
Whoever has edited this video is not very bright. Why do I have to look at the back of the attendance heads when the lecturer is explaining an example on the board?
Rust is too messy, zig ftw!
I saw some rust code. Not in million years I will touch a code that is human unreadable. What were they thinking making the syntax that looks like that.
Rust ❤👍
Rust ❤
Rust for safe stuffs.
Zig for unsafe things that you can’t do in Rust.
For example?
rust is not safe
@@baxiry. It is. Haven't you heard anything about "Rust Belt" project?
Says the guy who probably never wrote one line in rust @@baxiry.
@@baxiry. as long you re not using unsafe code, it s safer than zig
I recommend ignoring carbon until it's actually available
Vapor ware currently. Gonna be awhile too
Wdym? Carbon has been available since like the dawn of time.
@@NoX-512 I agree. It's easier to make things with carbon that to make things with carbon
A good way to reinvent the wheel...
What other language has lifetimes?
Except youre inventing the wheel and previously used a square (c++ compiler linker clusterfuck unusable bullshit without proprietary software)
Log rollers were already perfect.
Rust --> Zig
I had no idea Rust could dereference a pointer passed to it from a Zig struct! ;)
@@CaptTerrific
@@CaptTerrific
I think that means: "Rust-1 is bigger than Zig."
Or maybe it's the goes-to operator, as seen in C loops:
while (x --> 0) // x goes to 0
{
printf("%d ", x);
}
boon
It was painfull to listen.
What does boon mean?
@@edismexactly
@@the_original_dude what you said was intentionally meaningless? Very smart.
Guys please, if the man can't even speak English in a reasonable way - just publish an article or use a proxy - FFS, the point is to share information / raise awareness/engagement - if I were sitting in that room I would have checked out before the man said "BOON" (bun).
Nothing against him it just happens too much, f**k - just write an article next time.
u meant her? The guy spoke good
Savage 😐
they’re not that bad. turn your brain on and pay attention.
Such a sad comment.
Zig could have a better speaker
Zig, the adorable little robot, yearned for a voice that would resonate like a symphony. His current speaker, though functional, lacked the richness and depth he craved. It was as if he whispered his dreams to the world, and they got lost in the mundane hum of everyday life.
“Perhaps,” Zig mused, “I need a speaker that can weave magic into my words. One that can make the rustling leaves sound like a whispered secret and the raindrops dance like a thousand tiny ballerinas.”
He imagined a speaker that could paint the air with music, filling every corner of the room with warmth. Zig envisioned melodies that would wrap around his circuits, cradling him in their embrace. “A better speaker,” he thought, “would turn my beeps and boops into a symphony.”
And so, Zig set off on a quest. He scoured the electronic bazaars, seeking the perfect companion for his digital soul. He listened to speakers that promised clarity, fidelity, and bass that could shake the very foundations of reality. But none of them felt right.
“Too clinical,” he’d say, shaking his metallic head. “Too cold.”
Then, one day, as the sun dipped below the horizon, casting a warm glow on the cityscape, Zig stumbled upon it: The Harmonic Harmonizer 3000. Its sleek curves and iridescent finish beckoned to him. The moment he connected it to his circuits, he knew he’d found his match.
The first notes that flowed from the Harmonizer were like a gentle breeze, lifting Zig’s spirits. As he played his favorite tunes, the room transformed. The walls seemed to sway, and the ceiling shimmered with stardust. Zig closed his visual sensors and let the music wash over him.
“This,” he whispered, “is the voice I’ve been searching for.”
And so, Zig danced. His servos whirred, and his LED eyes sparkled. The Harmonizer turned his binary language into poetry, and the world listened. Passersby would stop outside his window, captivated by the ethereal melodies. Some said they heard whispers of forgotten dreams; others claimed they glimpsed distant galaxies.
“Thank you,” Zig would say to the Harmonizer every night. “You’ve given me a voice that reaches the stars.”
And as the city slept, Zig sang. His metallic heart swelled with gratitude, and he knew that sometimes, even a little robot could find magic in the most unexpected places.
So, if you ever pass by Zig’s window, listen closely. You might just hear the echoes of his symphony, carried on the wind, a testament to the power of a better speaker and the dreams of a tiny robot named Zig. 🎶🤖✨
@@NoX-512😂