Wow... I am seeing Dawkins in a new light. More friendly and patient in this conversation. This was a good conversation and thanks Justin for moderating it. This is teaching the present world that we can have opposite opinions and worldviews and still have friendly meaningful conversations. And many thanks to Collins too.
dawkins and his followers had to change their attitude as people were turned off by how they were acting. even other prominent scientists came out and criticized them for this.
Dawkins has a modicum of respect and dare say awe in what Collins has achieved with science. It is that and only that makes him review his bull terrier style attack. He asks Francis questions without that smirking mockery slathered in disdain that he back handedly normally reserves for those of lesser intellect
Perhaps in his older age and over time, as well as after debates with the great mind of John Lennox, he is softening. He said something to that after one of his debates, the last debate with John Lennox
@@jessebryant9233 no that's just the full conversation that's public on CZcams. They said if you sign up they'll send you the extended conversation. I can't find it.
But I agree with David Hume's point - they are not really "laws" in the sense they must be followed. Causality is an illusion that cannot be proved. A law of science can only say that B has always been seen to follow A in controlled experiments. It does not prove that B MUST follow A every time. This leaves open the possibility for something outside of space/time to intervene and prevent B from following A. If that something is like a being with free will - then it will never be subject to experimental observation.
@@lucidlythinking857 Are you aware that the sun consumes six million tons of matter every second, transforming it into heat and light and other radiation via fusion?
Give a shot at Miracles by C.S. Lewis - a philosophical argument for the possibility of the miraculous. Hope you can come to see that it is not illogical at all - you just have let go of the myth that scientific "laws" are actually laws per se (as in they must be followed) - there is no proof of that. They are only inductive observations of what "normally" occurs.
"Superlogical," after Blaise Pascal, is a good word Dawkins might consider. But he refuses. I used to believe as Dawkins does, but then many things happened--thank God--and I cannot unsee what I see now.
Right, not the wager. Pascal was interested in something he saw as God transcending what most of us think of as logic-not meaning “illogical” but on the other side of logic from that, perhaps if it were in the middle. Maybe in the way that unnatural and natural are apparent to us, with supernatural being outside of our normal encounters with the natural. He was onto something-no one can confine God to the purely natural and expect to see. By definition, God is supernatural, so also is He superlogical. Hope this helps. I think that Dawkins has crossed the Rubicon so hard that it would take something greater than it took for me to see, though I was nearly every bit as resigned to atheism before-utterly blind to any other possibility. Yet here I am. I just wish I’d known all my life. It would’ve made so many things better.
Thank you for the arguments from both guests. I am glad to see that Richard Dawkins has adopted a friendly way to express his opposite views. Obviously Richard has put scientific principles ahead of everything while Francis sees that scientific laws are created and serve God. So it is faith that has made the difference. Somehow I want to pray for Richard that he may have this faith. 🙂
@@charlesredbridge5870 YOU and the universe you live in ARE clearly miracles. You cannot account for anything that exists naturalistically, and yet YOU believe? Interesting...
@@jessebryant9233 You may this Universe call a miracle like our ancestors called thunders voices of gods. The corner of miracles is getting tinier by the day.
@@charlesredbridge5870 I may? Well, I don't. See, I'm going by what we do know, experience, and observe, NOT what we don't know. See the difference? Now, the corner of what miracles specifically is getting tinier by the day?
Listening to Richard try to reason on the Scriptures tells me although he may have read the text, he certainly did not study the text because he's missing the entire theme of the Bible. At the same time we have to remember that God literally keeps the truth from people who aren't humble, no matter how much you study the scriptures, if you aren't sincerely interested in knowing the truth, he will carefully hide the truth from you. Luke 10:21
@@peaceandfood7952 In the realm of science, definitive proof is elusive, and articulating a precise understanding of reality remains a challenge. Assertions of impossibility regarding events described in the Bible may stem from a lack of comprehension rather than inherent implausibility. Puzzling questions persist in scientific inquiry, such as the nature of energy, the mechanisms of gravity, the origin of the universe, the emergence of life, and the complex evolution from enigmatic single cells to the diversity observed today. In light of these uncertainties, maintaining an open-minded approach is warranted.
@@peaceandfood7952 The point is people believe in things all the time, blindly, whether it's science, God or themselves while feeling like what they blindly believe in is superior to something else.
@@DanFedMusic that's not true. the concept of Science is try to explain things by thousands of repetitions in order to discover paterns and make it become empirical. Religion is backed up by a book that we can read and have an opinion on it. And I'm not talking about god or gods I'm talking about religion a religion is a list of rules and "explanations" where this god is involved in your life what you can eat, how you can touch your dick or who can or can't touch it, what you can wear or not which is backed up by a book. So it's easy to read a book and disagree with it and trying to stay rational.
@@timeup2549 wow. you seriously misunderstood the meaning of 'don't throw pearls to pigs'. GRACE is a pearl to the pig(believer - a former unbeliever). forgiveness. a sinner who acknowledges his sin has been given a pearl. are you thankful for Gods grace? so for John to DENY Dr Dawkins pearls is kind of a conflicting statement. I reckon you are an unbeliever supporting pigs. do you even understand HUMANITY? you save a pig over a human. and you condemned god for causing the FLOOD. you caused your own flood
Collins isn't just, "allowing the possibility of the supernatural;" he's arguing that it's true. He's supporting the idea that magic and imaginary friends are THE MOST-LIKELY EXPLANATION of our world, for the origin of life and civilization as we know it WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE BUT THE BIBLE...💩💩 Religions are truly anti-reality cults that use the writings and politics of ancient goat-herders to manipulate people out of their money and into corrupt power structures with the haunting fear of an eternity of fire and torment... Manipulation by [false] fear and false promise! Disgraceful...💯
I'm not sure how "much" a person really can disagree with him? I can think of only two things, and one is just a perceived insensitivity to trans persons while [presumably] remaining entirely scientifically accurate (so hard to "disagree with" apart from judging his insensitivity- which I do)...🤷 The thing he may truey be wrong about is whether or not there are additional proteins and/or molecules that are inherited withing germ cells and play key roles in determining the exact expression of the genes in the germ line. (The debate with Denis Noble) I guess there was also a debate with Bret Weinstein but I have a very low opinion of that right-wing charlatan...🤦
Yet just study what happened in Lourdes. The fact is there are 000’s of medically verified miracles recorded by just the Catholic Church. That’s a science fact. Read the literature before you come up with another pitiable witticism.
And not believing in miracles is also a miracle in itself, humans ability to choose from our free will is a miracle, a gift from God the loving Creator
1:00 Miraculous intervention: 'Moments of remarkable importance to convey a message to his creatures, you and me.' "Yes! The perfect parking spot, Thanks God---the best to your son." Once you go down that road there is no parsing miracle from nature. The basic God message is, Nature, reality is not real.
As a recipient of multiple miracles, I can tell you that Yahweh is interacting as much, if not more than ever before. He is getting ready for the Big Show but, of course, His time is the perfect time. He is speaking to a world gone deaf and blind regarding Him.
If he is interacting as much, why doesn't he go help out Africa already? Is he backlogged? He isn't interacting with shit - stop talking nonsense. It's utterly obscene when people like you think he's helping you out in your life while the rest of the world rots.
Lol how self centered . You mean to tell me that your buddy yaweh cares to answer your personal prayers and yet let millions of innocent children , thru zero fault of their own, die of starvation and cancer across the globe every single yr ? Yaweh doesn’t hear the crying out and prayers from these dying children and their suffering parents ? How about all those soldiers in world wars praying to be safe , only seconds later to be blown up or gunned down ? Or how about a tsunami Killing over 225k innocent people praying to be spared ? Maybe yaweh was too preoccupied with your prayers and miracles instead . Come on , man , wake up. Unbelievable how brainwashed that sounds
@@timg7627 whatever floats your boat. I was one way and now I’m not. I was in the hospital in 2014 for myocarditis. They shouldn’t have been able to resuscitate me as my output after was only 5% which is medically impossible. They worked on me for 3.5 - 4 days and told my family to put me in a hospice. A woman prayed that night and had a vision of angels surrounding the bed. I woke the next morning as they withheld the tranquilizer. They didn’t withhold so I would wake and be alive. I was supposed to rouse & die. That’s my truth and it is thee truth.
@@michaelbrickley2443 cool it worked out for you. I don’t doubt you believe that but it’s not evidence for a miracle and it’s certainly not evidence for any god let alone the one specific god you attribute this too. What you’re doing is text book confirmation bias. Improbable events happen regularly. It’s what happened to you. The fact there was prayer and a vision is anecdotal. Does not prove a thing and is not evident for a miracle
why would someone want to accept Jesus, they would have to humble themselves, they would have to try and refrain from some of the most pleasurable things, they would have to realize there is someone greater than them. I understand why
Although I side with Collins, he has given us reason to doubt whether he'd follow through on his willingness to, *"I will be happy to listen to their arguments"* (see ~ 3;50) This was his modus operandi when faced with a different conundrum, Hi Tony and Cliff, This proposal from the three fringe epidemiologists who met with the Secretary seems to be getting a lot of attention - and even a co-signature from Nobel Prize winner Mike Leavitt at Stanford. There needs to be a quick and devastating published take down of its premises. I don't see anything like that on line vet - is it underway? Francis or his declaration that we can say with great confidence that Covid originated in nature?
Once God creates sentient creatures with emotions and ability to suffer, he can't do whatever he wants. He can't sit back and say suffering is because of sin or there is reason for it. Even God can't be above laws of justice and fairness
God certainly can do whatever He wants -- nothing constrains Him to be kind or fair (somewhat unfortunately). Let's nonetheless hope He IS kind and fair.
@@20july1944 Your concept of God belongs to an era when kings ruled over his subjects with absolute power. The social, moral values have changed, mate. Those days even human rights were not yet conceptualised. And now we recognize even animals have rights. God doesn't have any rights over us unless we agree to it.
@@williamwallace6508 famine is a result of bad governments where you PERMIT people to ACCEPT a countries 'rule of law' as SOVEREIGN over them. and no other country can intervene EXCEPT through WAR? now the Judeo-Christian God demonstrated another OPTION was available. firstly the command to be compassionate to WIDOWS and ORPHANS. for if you see a NEED to be compassionate with this group then other groups begin to be seen in your line of vision such as poverty. God also CANCELED THE DEBT. it was man who let man get into debt and for it to become worse with each passing day. it was man that DID NOT trust God. this is WHY suffering exists in the world. many diseases and viruses are the result of LIFESTYLE choices. sexual diseases a result of the care free nature NOT TO CARE. who can tell the role of alcohol over thousands of generations of humans to be responsible for things.
I think that naturalism requires even greater miracles, because it has miracles with no governor, no miracle maker. I think this makes Dawkins faith greater than the Christians.
What seems more likely? That a man fed 5000 with a Hovis loaf and a packet of 30 birds eye fish fingers....or that a bunch of dudes made up some BS story?
To be fair, it's the thiests' imposed presupposition that there is an intellectual entity or force behind the precision in the scientific reality. Like, what's makes believing that reality it is what it is less rational than the plausibility of an intellectual force of God, from a neutral standpoint?
@@VGameL0v3e12sF012Ree The question is WHAT "reality" entails. Do you think our universe began with a big bang? Speaking as a Christian and Old Earth Creationist, I definitely DO think there was a big bang.
I don't think Mr. Dawkins is going to face judgement . There is a subtle difference between a 'god-fearing' and a 'pious'. Dawkins is free from any guilt ensuing out of 'god-fear' .
Quantum Physics has shown that Reality is based on Probabilities. A statistical impossibility is defined as *_“a probability that is so low as to not be worthy of mentioning. Sometimes it is quoted as 1/10^50 although the cutoff is inherently arbitrary. Although not truly impossible the probability is low enough so as to not bear mention in a Rational, Reasonable argument."_* The probability of finding one particular atom out of all of the atoms in the universe has been estimated to be 1/10^80. The probability of a functional 150 amino acid protein chain forming by chance is 1/10^164. It has been calculated that the probability of DNA forming by chance is 1/10^119,000. The probability of random chance protein-protein linkages in a cell is 1/10^79,000,000,000. Based on just these three cellular components, it would be far more *Rational and Reasonable* to conclude that the cell was not formed by undirected random natural processes. Note: Abiogenesis Hypothesis posits that un-directed random natural processes, i.e. random chance formation, of molecules led to living organisms. Natural selection has no effect on individual atoms and molecules on the micro scale in a prebiotic environment. (*For reference, peptides/proteins can vary in size from 3 amino acid chains to 34,000 amino acid chains. Some scientists consider 300-400 amino acid protein chains to be the average size. There are 42,000,000 protein molecules in just one (1) simple cell, each protein requiring precise assembly. There are approx. 30,000,000,000,000 cells in the human body.) Furthermore, of all the physical laws and constants, just the Cosmological Constant alone is tuned to a level of 1/10^120; not to mention the fine-tuning of the Mass-Energy distribution of early universe which is 1/ 10^10^123. Therefore, in the fine-tuning argument, it would be more *Rational and Reasonable* to conclude that the multi-verse is not the correct answer while trying to determine the origin of the universe. A "Miracle" is considered to be an event with a probability of occurrence of 1/10^6. Abiogenesis, RNA World Hypothesis, and Multiverse would all far, far, far exceed any "Miracle". Yet, these extremely *Irrational and Unreasonable* hypotheses are what many of the world’s top scientists _‘must’_ believe in and promote because of a prior commitment to a strictly arbitrary, subjective, biased, narrow, limiting, materialistic ideology / worldview. Every idea, number, concept, thought, theory, mathematical equation, abstraction, qualia, Information, etc. existing within and expressed by anyone is "Immaterial" or "Non-material". The very idea or concept of "Materialism" is an immaterial entity and by it's own definition does not exist. Modern science seems to be stuck in archaic, subjective, biased ideologies that have inadequately attempted to define the "nature of reality" or the "reality of nature" for millenia. A Paradigm Shift in ‘Science’ is needed for humanity to advance. A major part of this Science Paradigm Shift would be the formal acknowledgment by the scientific community of the existence of "Immaterial" or "Non-material" entities as verified and confirmed by discoveries in Quantum Physics.
Love it! I think the exact same thing. My first question to all atheists is, “What’s the probability of abiogenesis occurring?” Most haven’t a clue, but beyond that most have never even thought about it, which is totally beyond me.
What are the chances of a magic man - a son of god no less, rising from the dead 2000 yrs ago with zero hard evidence...versus the chance that some dudes made up fancy stories? What seems more likely?
@@joeschmoe1794 Not sure I understand what you mean, what are two different things. I'm trying to find out what people think is more likely. That some sort of magical man rose from the dead, or that some folks made up fancy stories. Are there any other options? Would be keen to find out what your position is on this
Francis Collins said ''I believe in Jesus' resurrection and without it my Christian faith doesn't have any substance'' In which case, it looks like your Christian faith doesn't have any substance LMFAO Dawkins was friendly here and not hostile because he aknowledges and respects Francis Collins as a fellow biologist who has been involved with huge scientific discoveries. he just rejects any of the unnecessary supernatural stuff, as do i
@@Dr.Ian-Plect And you are a doctor? Don’t tell me, gender studies. You will have to do better than simply saying clueless crap, as you ought to, as a doctor, IF you really are one. Your statement certainly wouldn’t indicate that, unless you’re a Liberal lefty that is. So go on, O clued up one, spill the beans. Let’s see what gems of pure unadulterated truth lie within your cranial cavity.
I’m not a Christian. But Dawkins’ lack of understanding of the most basic concepts in theology and facts about religion is truly startling. Anyone who’s seriously read the God Delusion knows he has virtually no idea what he’s talking about. Admittedly because he doesn’t consider it a valid field of study. Yet proceeds to wade into topics in which he finds himself hopelessly out of his depth. See virtually any discussion he’s ever had with serious, non-YEC Christian and Jewish theologians and scholars.
Yeah, when it comes to theology, Dawkins has an adolescent understanding. It’s comparable to a teenager taking a middle school biology class and thinking they have a deep understanding of biology.
Theology is not a an intellectual exercise. It is stupid. Christianity and its disgusting enfant terrible, Islam, are beyond stupid. If you want to actually dive into spirituality and ways to think about reality, head over to Vedānta, Buddhism and Yoga.@@Joe-gi3nj
Well , the problem is when you take poor biblical interpretations to argue against something like why God allows natural disasters , you end up looking rather foolish. I believe God did create all things , but then the miracles mentioned in the Bible are small and insignificant in comparison to all His creation until that time.
Who says your interpretation of the bible is correct and Richard's is "poor"? There's no authority on how to take the bible, hence the multitude of denominations and subjective interpretations. To claim yours is the correct one could be seen as rather arrogant, no?
3:28 Here is the rub, as I see it. For Collins reality is such that the natural and the supernatural co-exist on the same stage, as it were. For Dawkins reality is such that nature is natural, and the slightest real miracle would destroy nature as nature. Dawkins has taken to heart the biblical advice No man can serve two masters. To Collins and like believers, it seems to me, falls the task of explaining the relationship between the supernatural and the natural, exactly how they share the stage without nature falling off.
@@leedise2383Do miracles, supernatural events happen or don't they? If one thinks that they do, it seems to me, such a one also thinks that they share the stage with natural events. So I take it that you think that the world was created. I think the world is natural. A created thing is an artifact. Something that is an artifact is not a natural thing. So thinking that the world is created is thinking nature is unnatural.
@@arthurwieczorek4894 This is an interesting line of thought, my friend. I’m not sure I completely understand. When you mentioned that for Collins and the like, the natural and supernatural ‘share the same stage’: what do you mean by ‘stage’ and do you take to mean that unnatural and supernatural are interchangeable or equivalent things? What I’m understanding is that basically, a four-legged lacquered chair for example, is not natural because it was created; is it therefore, ‘supernatural’ or unnatural?
@@Hhjhfu247 Some people ask for evidence for God, but they can't handle it and ignore an flatly deny when confronted with it. The Shroud of Turin is evidence for Christs and people go to great lengths to deny and try to disprove it, but fail.
@@Hhjhfu247 No one can answer, what you ask. The universe is a deadly place not suitable for a fragile life like us. Space is almost absolute zero (where atoms stop moving) at -270 degrees, with deadly radiations, exploding stars, black holes, supernovas, nebula clouds...Our rare earth sits in the Goldilocks zone of our solar system, and where our solar system is located in a relatively small area of the habitable zone of our Milky Way, far away from the dense center and the spiral arms....We must wonder why our tiny earth even exist in this vast universe...96 billion light years big The humans use of the mathematical disciplines ...are the works of that reason by which men surpass beasts, for brutes cannot number, weigh, and measure. The Laws of nature are ordered all things in measure, and number, and weight and that man alone have the unerring knowledge of what exists, and to know the structure of the world. From the tens of millions of specie that ever existed on earth only humans are endowed with these gifts. Some men call themselves smart, but there are smarter men that sees what they do not see. Only humans can unlock the mysteries of creation through math, science, and philosophy. Only humans can grasp, the mind of God.
We've been doomed from the beginning. We're no different than cow's grazing in a field. Some of us just think we're more special than others because they read it in a book that was a great work of fiction thousands of years ago.
Enjoyed this tidbit though I wish the fact that miracles reportedly continued through Jesus’ disciples , including thru Paul who also reportedly raised the dead, would be discussed.
Lots of Bible scholars are atheists, presumably they don't believe in miracles. I'm a Christian and believe Jesus performed every miracle the gospels report, but there are plenty of scholars that don't.
Most biblical scholars agree Moses was not a real person. Towers built out of clay can't reach the sky, for obvious reasons or we descend from Adam& Eve is not genetically possible. Bart Ehrman is worth a look up if your after answers.
Dr Bart Ehrman is just one scholar. A Once-upon-a-time fundamentalist Christian, until he actually examined what he was believing, and couldn’t square the idea of suffering. Christianity’s biggest stumbling block….suffering.
@@jennifer97363 No one cares what your perception of God is, the first thing to decide is whether He exists or not. You clearly hate the idea of God, but that doesn't prove anything either way and unless we care about your welfare personally (I don't) your unsupported feelings are meaningless.
So Francis is suggesting further reading when he is in a discussion? It must mean that that book contains the definitive answer and he cant convey it to us.
@@charlesredbridge5870 more important ?? That’s too funny.. letter to the Colossians? When you’re done try “can we trust the gospels” by p. Williams. I dare you lol
Chrischuns: people who read a book - and decided to believe it. (actually that's not entirely true - many heard it from a priest and never bothered to read it for themselves, certainly not thoroughly)
I don't know about that. Many NT scholars agree about the empty tomb narrative, post-mortem appearances, and the disciples'willingness to die for the truth of their belief. In fact the Hebrew scholar, Pinchas Lapide, said, on the basis of such evidences, he believed that the God of Israel raised Jesus from the dead!
@@samhangster Who was this imposter and why did he look so much like Jesus that it fooled his family and closest followers? Possible, but very hard to believe.
@@20july1944 easier for me to believe that he was resurrected. I already believe Jesus will be resurrected once in the future, but twice just doesn’t make sense. Also the imposter was put on the cross. He was bloodied and ragged with long hair probably covering his face. Easy to mistake in such a time of creulity. Post mortem sightings are easily explained by Jesus’s actual presence before ascending to heaven.
But why is God mute? If God were truly all powerful and actually cared about our salvation he would give us all clear instructions in acway all of us could understand. But He never does.
He’s more patient and friendly because he knows that some day he’s not gonna be the famous scientist anymore and he has to face judgment 😮 It’s dawning on him…
I am praying for Dawkins and I agree with you he has nothing to say. someone needs to remind him that a atheist is a person that desperately doesn't want to be held accountable. we need to hear more about sin in any debate like this. God bless you
How does it make any sense at all. God intervenes in whatever random bs 2000 years ago but he wont prevent the creation of HIV naturally xD so goddamn funny
I'm a Christian, but I don't believe this to be a slam-dunk conversation. Not at all. Rather, two intelligent men begin with very different understandings regarding the nature of reality. Their conclusions are, respectively, inevitable.
You could say the same about a renowned scientist who believes that random, unguided processes could produce highly sophisticated, specified complex systems. “Random chance and enough time is enough”, they say; despite there being no evidence random chance is even capable of such phenomena, despite the amount of time.
@@ronnied1172 you have to demonstrate with verifiable evidence that there exists a God in the first place before you make the next step to say yep this God can do X
Do you have an argument FOR what you assert? Reading Joe's comment, I think this shows the profound faith of Sir. Richard Dawkins. What would be just 3 empirically verifiable scientific evidences that you personally find compelling regarding the naturalistic worldview?
Dear Viewers, Because we don't know :- 1) who created the universe? 2) Who created life on this planet ? 3) Is there any life on any other planet? 4) Is there a soul with every living thing including humans? 5) what happens to us when we loose physical form? 6) Is it possible to create space and matter from scratch? 7) Is it possible for a person to come alive after his/her death, after the body as been destroyed, in the same physical form can god do it? 8) Is it possible for spirit to travel to other planet or can living talk to them? 9) Is God a person? and many such haunting questions like these has no answers .. we assume there is a great power which set all these things in motion. Science has no means to answer questions related to non material/intangible things like aakasha, soul, spirit, ether, space, field etc .. it has no means to answer such questions , so what science can not answer(as of now) we attribute it to great power god .. which or whose god i m not sure .. Namaste
1) the most high Creator God (Yah) 2) also Yah (God) 3) there are spiritual life forms but they are in different realms, not in outer space 4) only humans are granted souls 5) we die and are forever separated from God, unless we choose to be saved through Jesus, then we are resurrected instead of judged 6) there is nothing new under the sun 7) the resurrected will be given new bodies 8) the barriers between the spiritual realm and material realm can be blurred, but we are not to seek out spirits and we should test them if we encounter them to see if they are of God 9) Jesus was/is fully human and fully God. He is the son of God and personhood of God made divine through the Holy Spirit. I think the Bible does the best to answer these questions and almost all other religions are offshoots of Yah's Word. Some are deceptive perversions, and others are mostly good they just miss out on Jesus being the only way.
"There are thousands of miracles done by Saints." - NO, there are CLAIMS of miracles that require substantiation. What a pathetic, unsupported statement
@@factualgravity9028 "There are thousands of miracles done by Saints." - NO, there are CLAIMS of miracles that require substantiation. What a pathetic, unsupported statement
Ironically, Richard Dawkins as well as most people believe in a miracle, I.e., the supernatural… As he believes in the “some-thing” called the universe, which came in existence from “no-thing”… By definition a super-natural”…”miraculous” occurrence.
The irony is that the idea that natural laws could give rise to specified complex biological systems, some of which have the capability of rational intelligence, is itself a miracle. There’s literally nothing mundane about it. Unintelligent processes are not known to produce specified complexity.
Jesse Bryant It does. I appreciate who ever coined the phrase “Darwinism of the gaps” to describe the idea that random, unguided processes could spontaneously produce sophisticated specified complexity (and rational intelligence) through random chance and enough time. “We don’t know how this specified complexity could have arose, but surely, if given enough time, random unguided processes can explain it; despite no evidence suggesting they can and all empirical evidence suggesting they’re insufficient to explain it”
Dawkin's is my hero. I am always fascinated by atheist persons! Faith is not evidence based science. Faith is turning away from science for some so called 'humanist reasoning' .
The earliest accounts that we have of Jesus' supposed resurrection comes at least 100 years after its supposed happening. That is not a reliable eyewitness account.
@@factualgravity9028 Our earliest fragments of any gospel, or any part of the new testament, date to later than 100AD. For all we know it was all fabricated.
For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. Hebrews 3:4 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:20
A lunatic who happened to be a director of the National Human Genome Research Institute. Remarkable scientist. There have been many scientists called lunatics. That's why they have been so successful :)
By the expressions on his face it is clear that Francis Collins doesn’t actually believe this stuff. After all it would be a little embarrassing for any credible scientist to promote the supernatural and legitimise miracle claims. Based on the observation of the little smirks that dance around the corners of his lips after each proclamation, I suspect that he has simply won a bet with a friend that he can wind up Richard Dawkins!
Before,you talk about god why don't you learn the truths about why we may have , different climates ,wether conditions, tornados, earthquakes in different regions on the planet first.
It's interesting that the whole tenure of the Qur'an is against miracles. Did God really split the sea for Moses and the Israelites? Or was it a natural phenomena due to tides and the wind?
As God is the author & creator of all life, His immutable laws of nature are actually proven by His exceptions to those laws, which we call "miracles". I personally have been delivered from death-defying experiences in which others died, but I was not harmed except in my mind being traumatized by seeing others harmed.God is very active in our world & gave many guidelines for life. He can suspend His natural order when it suits His longterm will. Accepting this is crucial, at least to me, to claim faith in His existemce, & His being a good, benvolent Father. I enjoyed this discussion. I listened to Dr Clyde Narramore of Biola University all throughout the 70s-80s on christian radio. I learned to question, but to trust that God would answer. Amazing, respectful discourse, much needed in our world today.
@@Lydiansolo Putting aside the question of why you find that conclusion so self-evidently absurd, I suspect Hawking wasn't anywhere near as attached to that conclusion as any theist is attached to the idea that an invisible benevolent deity snapped his fingers and the cosmos appeared. Science eschews dogma at every step, whereas dogma is the lifeblood of religious belief.
Mr Collins really needs to get some good therapy if he believes in miracles. How can anyone who is very obviously intelligent be so deluded as to believe in God.
I see alot of people doubting the reserection miracle, so I present you with another perspective from the Islamic Faith where we also have mass testified miracles which have a chain of narration of witness passing down the miracle that they all saw. According to David Hume, he would accept a miracle if it was mass testified, and I believe that the Miracles of the prophet was
Eyewitness accounts by a bunch of mostly illiterate ancient people aren't the knock dead piece of evidence that you think it is. How much do you want to bet that the basis of your faith is fallacious?
I am Catholic. I have no doubt what you say is in fact true for many miracles in Islam. God leaves nobody short. Interesting though the recent book (2019) by the german author on the 21 Coptic Martys beheaded by ISIS in north africa. Many moslems came to the village to invoke their intercession and many moslems received their own miracles there. The same is very apparent in the Lebanon with St Charbel. Many moslems speak of miracles from God there too via the intercession of the canonisded saint who clearly loves moslems. I would be interested to know of any moslem saints who are recorded as being miracle workers. Can you help?
@@e.h908 Then your god is an idiot. There is no need for people to suffer. How cruel when it is within his power to make things better. You worship that ?
I'm 57 now. As middle age approached, my religious faith waned, and I eventually wore an uncomfortable "Atheist" coat for a while. While I'm back to being a believer of sorts, I'm still very sympathetic to Dawkins, though I find the materialist/non-materialist debate to be mostly pointless. Regarding the resurrection, the real resurrection that Christians should be focused on is the one that is suppose to happen in their own life. The real Christian message is that WE can be brought back to life in this life. So I honestly don't care if Jesus (assuming he really existed) was actually raised from the dead, or if it's simply a myth that speaks to our deepest truth.
I'm curious what this deepest truth is. Can you say more about being brought back to life in this life, as you put it? I know the traditional Christian answer, I'm looking for your particular perspective which sounds like it might be a little different. Cheers.
Would anyone believe it today if a girl from their town claimed she was preggers by god? A neighbour claimed he'd walked on liguid water in a lake, but had no foto/ video evidence to show for it? A man on the street offers to sell a donkey that speaks fluent Chinese and Spanish? NO - they wouldn't. Yet some believe similar tales from a 2,000 year old book of doubtable provenance
And Collins should read Bart Erhman's argument about the implausibility of the resurrection story given that the burial itself would have been highly exceptional from a historical point of view. Or perhaps he should look into Richard Carrier's proposal of the whole thing to be a myth. After all, these Christians exhibit significant wishful thinking and confirmation bias when they only look at Jesús resurrection but at the same time they reject the possible resurrection of other deities previous to Jesus, which suspiciously had very similar stories. Dawkins was right to call him out on his unscientific attitude.
There were witnesses to the resurrection who persisted in their story for forty years in spite of being reviled, beaten, imprisoned, exiled, and martyred. People die for lies all the time, but not knowingly. The witnesses held to their story to the end.
I dont think Francis really believes what he says he does….he wants to, badly. But many people, such as many dear to me, are not capable of realising belief is not a matter of choice … F Collins is NOT ‘allowing for possibility’ only. The way I see it is, he sort of needs to accept such highly improbable possibility. We all are allowing it, but are consistently dissuaded by realities we see and face…Basically, most people (including those that declare to believe in a God - as most find it terrifying to think there are none) actually think it is EXTREMELY unlikely resurrection occurred 😁
Miracles only occur to show us the full force of Almighty God's refined electromagnetic laws to encourage us to follow His righteous electromagnetic laws...and here is the crux of it all...by following Righteousness we are using the same electromagnetic laws that speak directly to our genetic health in a refined way rather than the 'reaching out for vital needs' of the evolutionary way...and Almighty God is in charge of both.
Quantum physics... our consciousness participates...we have to learn to intervene together in unity. We are power generators and can be for good or bad.
@@TopoTopaco just because you know the word decoherence doesnt make it any less odd that something comes out of nothing. Is it random bs to say that we can either be a force for good or bad? Lol. 1000 years from now we will seem primitive in our understanding.
@@TopoTopaco one of the topics discussed was Francis position on gods frequency of intervention. My position is that consciousness takes preeminence and why would such a being do what we can do for ourselves. i.e. If we collectively decide to stop wars war would stop. Dont try to act humble now lol
And I’m allowing the possibility that a bunch of people in the Middle East wrote some fun and fantastical stories, then it kinda all just got out of hand 😅
Yet, 2000 years later those stories are still talked about. 🤔 miracles still happening, 🤔 Jesus & his disciples still talked about after 2000 years. Takes the spirit of God in order to get an understanding of the Bible. But people like Dawkins resist truth so he will be without understanding just like scientist / atheist.
Looks like you got a few book there ,my friend. To bad they were all written to put you to sleep , bet you haven't made through one of them. Real books contain truths, not materialistic scientific nonsense.
The Trinity is an immortality myth. It does away with corporeality. There is no sexual union. Therefore there is no biological generation. Therefore there is no degeneration. Therefore, both generations are conflated. Father and son. And it is a ghost story. Ghosts are common vehicles for immortality tales. And ghosts also serves as an intermediary between life and death. . . This myth accords with religions which are immortality ideologies. The Trinity myth also serve as a mechanism to have God contact (!) with people. Similar in a way to Moses climbing up Mt. Sinai. Siegfried the Norse god was the son of Odin by a human female. . . .
Much respect to both gentlemen but, I’m taking Richards side on this one. You can’t say that laws of the universe explain things like viruses but then also believe in miracles. When you believe in miracles, you are saying that God can turn off these laws at any time he pleases. This makes the laws completely unnecessary, especially considering that God is also supposed to be all-knowing. Not to mention that the miracles he supposedly did, did not help humanity with anything. Turning water into wine, walking on water, raising from the dead, these things help us with nothing. So, what was his point in doing these things? Trying to impress us? Or, perhaps the point was to prove that he is God? Well, in that case he should’ve actually proven it. I certainly respect Collins work in science but, his God model has not yet been accepted by science, not even as a hypothesis. Therefore, it is merely a philosophical view, and one that does not make sense to me.
Is it really consistency that Richard is looking for? Consistency is “If A and not B then C and not D.” God is the source of all things. Everything comes from Him. It doesn’t come from the universe or any other physical thing. The universe consistently does nothing of its own. God can’t make mistakes. We can because we are a physical fabrication. The laws of the universe hold true that matter and energy cannot make or direct themselves. God said if you sin you die. If you don’t sin you live. So everything that happens is a part of the judgment as a result of our own sins on us. God can offer relief if we understand that God is the only source of relief. Only your Maker can perfectly cover for you Himself and remake you again from the inside out by the power of His true word as no one else can. Jesus was healing every disease and what was our response? We killed Him proving what was in our hearts. We don’t deserve anything. Everything that we have is by the grace of God and we will all finish dying in the end because it what is due to us. It’s really not so complicated. God is still proving what is in our hearts. This universe is a physical fabrication that is neither good nor bad. It’s what we choose to do that is good or bad whether we tell the truth or lie against the truth. Our sins are ultimately on and against our Maker so God literally showed our sins to be on and against our Maker when we killed His only Son our only hope. In killing God’s Son a perfect sacrifice was made in order to send everyone His Holy Spirit to convince each one of us of our sin, convince us of righteousness and to convince us of the coming judgment. The Holy Spirit is now our only link to God. Salvation is through sanctification by the Spirit and believing what is true.
Earthquake have nothing to do with God . What book are these guys reading ,god becoming human ,this whole debate nonsense, these guys are way in over there heads ,who would agree to a debate ,when they had no idea about the topics of the debate , I will tell you who ,an individual whos ego is way to big ,and they think they are smarter than they are , they said absolutely nothing ,other then argue like 12 year old boy ,over there own inconsistent view about the world . This dosnt benefit anyone, only truth ,facts , knowledge matters .
If you would like to accept Jesus as your Savior please pray this aloud: "Lord Jesus, I repent of my sins and surrender my life. Wash me clean. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. That he died on the cross for my sins and rose again on the third day for my Victory, I believe that in my heart and make confession with my mouth, that Jesus is my Savior and Lord.
I fail to see how your conclusion follows from your premise. Dawkins is one of the most prominent prophets of the religion of atheism/naturalism, and clearly, Christians are willing to engage, converse, and listen to what those who disagree with them say. Maybe you think that is a bad thing?
As a Christian, I agree with you that it is questionable how much air-time "Unbelievable" gives this douchebag, but we're free to ignore it. I'm here to chat with atheists, don't care what Dawkins thinks.
@@jessebryant9233 it was an observation. I do hear way more about Dawkins from Christian’s than I do any atheist. The amount of times I’ve heard the “pitiless indifference” quote in church is amazing.
There is just one theme running throughout the Holy Bible...Almighty God is a God over all electromagnetic laws. Secreted within His 'word' is an electromagnetic science and those who participate in His 'word' are participating in His science. Our greatest problem today is that an electromagnetic storm is brewing in the Earth's surrounding electromagnetic field. It will cause many global tribulations but we know that it will pass. We will need those electromagnetic laws of righteousness to get through it all.
One epistemological error (epistemological error because religion and Francis Collins' faith does not adhere to logic) I believe Francis Collins is making is in his rejection of the scientific view the replacement for Collins' is his own culture's explanation of such phenomenon. It shows what I call the bias of locality since Collins decides on an explanation that is pervasive within his own culture. If he had chosen a different religion, it would at least illustrate that he was searching for the truth (as much as one that rejects science can). But by accepting his own culture by default, Collins' illustrates nothing more than the influence culture can have on shaping one's opinions. This is anathema to science and is the reason in science that we don't have, for example, Jewish physics and Arab physics - just physics. The principles apply cross culturally and allow for results to be duplicated across the globe regardless of one's personal beliefs.
It's sad when a scientist, who should have been trained in critical thinking and doing whatever it takes to avoid fooling yourself, gets seduced by comforting fairy tales that tell him that he will survive the death of his brain. I wish him well on his spiritual journey. Perhaps he will one day see the light and rediscover the magic of reality.
Don't ask Richard "WHY" questions. He claims they are stupid... even though scientific inquiry is all about WHY things operate the way they do. Atheism = world of contradiction!
If there’s an entity overseeing this world, it sure isn’t the ridiculous god-of-the-bible. SO much wrong with that story. It’s stunning that someone who calls himself a scientist, supposedly using the scientific method,also calls himself a believer of miracles, saying there is plentiful,credible evidence of same. I’m embarrassed for him, just by listening.
@@michaeldukes4108 Do you have to be a real ‘somebody’ to have an opinion, a perspective, a point-of-view? LOL What is a real somebody anyway? Who are they in the world- just Christians?
@@jennifer97363 Yes, you need relevant evidence to have a relevant opinion. I'd be happy to discuss either the origin of the universe or the origin of Christianity if you can defend your claim that Christianity is "ridiculous."
1. Not the God of the Bible? How do you know that? How did you come to that conclusion? 2. So much "wrong"? What do you mean by that? 3. The dude who first officially formulated the scientific method-was a Bible believing, young earth creationist! 4. So if there are no 'miracles' how do you explain the origins of the universe and life? What natural processes could cause nature to come into existence? (See the problem there?) 5. Will you give credibility to your own naturalistic faith or should we be embarrassed for you before you even try to answer?
Dawkins has it both ways. He can design a set and hire stage hands to show you the "evolution of the eye lens", but it was totally not designed or orchestrated in nature. What a joke. "You must see that you are applying your own view, and that anything you see that cannot be explained naturally must be an intellectual error"-that you for calling him out Francis.
@@riggs234 what is simple about the human eye? Or any lens eye? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 There needs to be a method for the light to enter, sensors to collect light, the information needs to be sent and interpreted, then the organism makes a decision based on that info. Natural selection requires a benefit so it needs to happen all at once, but over millions of years because evolution.
CanadianGoose It’s not just complex. It’s specified complexity. Specified complexity is a sign of design. Is your position really that nothing that is complex requires intelligence? Because that is obviously false.
Wow... I am seeing Dawkins in a new light. More friendly and patient in this conversation. This was a good conversation and thanks Justin for moderating it. This is teaching the present world that we can have opposite opinions and worldviews and still have friendly meaningful conversations. And many thanks to Collins too.
dawkins and his followers had to change their attitude as people were turned off by how they were acting. even other prominent scientists came out and criticized them for this.
Dawkins has a modicum of respect and dare say awe in what Collins has achieved with science. It is that and only that makes him review his bull terrier style attack. He asks Francis questions without that smirking mockery slathered in disdain that he back handedly normally reserves for those of lesser intellect
I think Dawkins has always been unbelievably friendly and patient, even with the most unscientific people.
Dawkins is usually very friendly and patient. Where do you find him otherwise?
Perhaps in his older age and over time, as well as after debates with the great mind of John Lennox, he is softening. He said something to that after one of his debates, the last debate with John Lennox
I truly enjoyed this discussion.
I truly did enjoyed Francis Collins showing everyone he is absolute retardation
Plz share full conversation video.
I signed up but where do I get the extended conversation?
Expand the info under the vid. There's a link there.
@@jessebryant9233 no that's just the full conversation that's public on CZcams. They said if you sign up they'll send you the extended conversation. I can't find it.
@@JimmyDThing
They'll "send" you the extended conversation? Sounds like they were saying they would email it to you...
@@jessebryant9233 yeah it's unclear. I never received anything and I can't find anything on their site.
@@JimmyDThing
Contact 'em.
0:38. "We live in a universe that follows laws."
But I agree with David Hume's point - they are not really "laws" in the sense they must be followed. Causality is an illusion that cannot be proved. A law of science can only say that B has always been seen to follow A in controlled experiments. It does not prove that B MUST follow A every time. This leaves open the possibility for something outside of space/time to intervene and prevent B from following A. If that something is like a being with free will - then it will never be subject to experimental observation.
Special pleading is Collins argument. Seems like he wants to believe.
Do you know basic astrophysics, like why a star doesn't last forever?
That's where the quickest path to God's existence is viewable.
@@20july1944 that’s dumb. Do you want me to explain?
@@lucidlythinking857 Are you aware that the sun consumes six million tons of matter every second, transforming it into heat and light and other radiation via fusion?
@@20july1944 so you apparently don’t care about knowing?
Don’t know your point here. I know how it operates at a subatomic level. Go on.
The basic irrationality:
An argument that should convince you out of your belief, is not good enough to convince me out of mine.
Much as I'm sympathetic to religion, I also don't see any reason to suspend normal logical thinking for specific supernatural incidents in history
Yes, it’s tough for me too
Give a shot at Miracles by C.S. Lewis - a philosophical argument for the possibility of the miraculous. Hope you can come to see that it is not illogical at all - you just have let go of the myth that scientific "laws" are actually laws per se (as in they must be followed) - there is no proof of that. They are only inductive observations of what "normally" occurs.
The greatest supernatural event is the Big Bang.
@@bhocatbho you have got to be kidding me lol
"Superlogical," after Blaise Pascal, is a good word Dawkins might consider. But he refuses. I used to believe as Dawkins does, but then many things happened--thank God--and I cannot unsee what I see now.
@D Sullivan Pascal made many other points than his wager -- I don't know what he's referring to.
Do you know whether there's a God or not?
The Christian god is a man made myth
Cannot unsee! I’m in the same boat.
@D Sullivan Let's focus on the beginning of Christianity.
Do we agree Jesus was executed around 30 AD in Jerusalem?
Let's build from there.
Right, not the wager. Pascal was interested in something he saw as God transcending what most of us think of as logic-not meaning “illogical” but on the other side of logic from that, perhaps if it were in the middle. Maybe in the way that unnatural and natural are apparent to us, with supernatural being outside of our normal encounters with the natural. He was onto something-no one can confine God to the purely natural and expect to see. By definition, God is supernatural, so also is He superlogical. Hope this helps.
I think that Dawkins has crossed the Rubicon so hard that it would take something greater than it took for me to see, though I was nearly every bit as resigned to atheism before-utterly blind to any other possibility. Yet here I am. I just wish I’d known all my life. It would’ve made so many things better.
Thank you for the arguments from both guests. I am glad to see that Richard Dawkins has adopted a friendly way to express his opposite views. Obviously Richard has put scientific principles ahead of everything while Francis sees that scientific laws are created and serve God. So it is faith that has made the difference. Somehow I want to pray for Richard that he may have this faith. 🙂
Yes. Pray for some miracles for all of us. Because that is all we need.
@@charlesredbridge5870
YOU and the universe you live in ARE clearly miracles. You cannot account for anything that exists naturalistically, and yet YOU believe? Interesting...
@@jessebryant9233 You may this Universe call a miracle like our ancestors called thunders voices of gods. The corner of miracles is getting tinier by the day.
We have enough evidence and logic to know beyond reasonable doubt that Jeesus is man-made BS, just like all the other religions known to man
@@charlesredbridge5870
I may? Well, I don't. See, I'm going by what we do know, experience, and observe, NOT what we don't know. See the difference? Now, the corner of what miracles specifically is getting tinier by the day?
2:50 So there was a miracle time. None before that and none after that. What!? ----so no miracles during Old Testament time?
Listening to Richard try to reason on the Scriptures tells me although he may have read the text, he certainly did not study the text because he's missing the entire theme of the Bible.
At the same time we have to remember that God literally keeps the truth from people who aren't humble, no matter how much you study the scriptures, if you aren't sincerely interested in knowing the truth, he will carefully hide the truth from you.
Luke 10:21
Your statement can be switched if you read the bible without staying rational then you will accept the talking snakes, donkeys, splitting sea, etc...
@@peaceandfood7952
In the realm of science, definitive proof is elusive, and articulating a precise understanding of reality remains a challenge. Assertions of impossibility regarding events described in the Bible may stem from a lack of comprehension rather than inherent implausibility. Puzzling questions persist in scientific inquiry, such as the nature of energy, the mechanisms of gravity, the origin of the universe, the emergence of life, and the complex evolution from enigmatic single cells to the diversity observed today. In light of these uncertainties, maintaining an open-minded approach is warranted.
@@DanFedMusic so if you wanna be honest then the 4000 religions are real...
@@peaceandfood7952
The point is people believe in things all the time, blindly, whether it's science, God or themselves while feeling like what they blindly believe in is superior to something else.
@@DanFedMusic that's not true. the concept of Science is try to explain things by thousands of repetitions in order to discover paterns and make it become empirical. Religion is backed up by a book that we can read and have an opinion on it. And I'm not talking about god or gods I'm talking about religion a religion is a list of rules and "explanations" where this god is involved in your life what you can eat, how you can touch your dick or who can or can't touch it, what you can wear or not which is backed up by a book. So it's easy to read a book and disagree with it and trying to stay rational.
Pearls to swine. Move on from this guy.
are believers not the biggest swines?
@@gjeacocke That would an insult to pigs.
@@gjeacocke no - but they are legion :)
@@timeup2549 wow. you seriously misunderstood the meaning of 'don't throw pearls to pigs'. GRACE is a pearl to the pig(believer - a former unbeliever). forgiveness. a sinner who acknowledges his sin has been given a pearl. are you thankful for Gods grace? so for John to DENY Dr Dawkins pearls is kind of a conflicting statement. I reckon you are an unbeliever supporting pigs. do you even understand HUMANITY? you save a pig over a human. and you condemned god for causing the FLOOD. you caused your own flood
Not yet. Ricardo D. will become a follower of Jesus.
Collins is right. Scientism is not the same as science. Scientism is an ideology.
Collins isn't just, "allowing the possibility of the supernatural;" he's arguing that it's true. He's supporting the idea that magic and imaginary friends are THE MOST-LIKELY EXPLANATION of our world, for the origin of life and civilization as we know it WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE BUT THE BIBLE...💩💩 Religions are truly anti-reality cults that use the writings and politics of ancient goat-herders to manipulate people out of their money and into corrupt power structures with the haunting fear of an eternity of fire and torment... Manipulation by [false] fear and false promise! Disgraceful...💯
Is this the same Francis Collins who was emailing with Dr Fauci about how to manage the communications about the COVID-19 pandemic?
The Existence is a miracle
As much as I disagree with Dawkins on a lot of aspects, I think he’s right on the ball here.
I'm not sure how "much" a person really can disagree with him? I can think of only two things, and one is just a perceived insensitivity to trans persons while [presumably] remaining entirely scientifically accurate (so hard to "disagree with" apart from judging his insensitivity- which I do)...🤷 The thing he may truey be wrong about is whether or not there are additional proteins and/or molecules that are inherited withing germ cells and play key roles in determining the exact expression of the genes in the germ line. (The debate with Denis Noble) I guess there was also a debate with Bret Weinstein but I have a very low opinion of that right-wing charlatan...🤦
Believing in miracles is a miracle in itself.
Yet just study what happened in Lourdes. The fact is there are 000’s of medically verified miracles recorded by just the Catholic Church. That’s a science fact. Read the literature before you come up with another pitiable witticism.
So you believe in miracles then 🤣😂🤣😂😂🤣
And not believing in miracles is also a miracle in itself, humans ability to choose from our free will is a miracle, a gift from God the loving Creator
@@Portekberm yes of course every catholic in the world does. All 1.3 billion.
here is the living wyrd in action … healthy conversation babbling back & forth like a swirling & vibrant river …. a true miracle ..
FFS he had the ear of the most powerful man on the planet 😮
1:00 Miraculous intervention: 'Moments of remarkable importance to convey a message to his creatures, you and me.' "Yes! The perfect parking spot, Thanks God---the best to your son." Once you go down that road there is no parsing miracle from nature. The basic God message is, Nature, reality is not real.
As a recipient of multiple miracles, I can tell you that Yahweh is interacting as much, if not more than ever before. He is getting ready for the Big Show but, of course, His time is the perfect time. He is speaking to a world gone deaf and blind regarding Him.
If he is interacting as much, why doesn't he go help out Africa already? Is he backlogged? He isn't interacting with shit - stop talking nonsense. It's utterly obscene when people like you think he's helping you out in your life while the rest of the world rots.
Lol how self centered . You mean to tell me that your buddy yaweh cares to answer your personal prayers and yet let millions of innocent children , thru zero fault of their own, die of starvation and cancer across the globe every single yr ? Yaweh doesn’t hear the crying out and prayers from these dying children and their suffering parents ? How about all those soldiers in world wars praying to be safe , only seconds later to be blown up or gunned down ? Or how about a tsunami Killing over 225k innocent people praying to be spared ? Maybe yaweh was too preoccupied with your prayers and miracles instead . Come on , man , wake up. Unbelievable how brainwashed that sounds
The sheer indulgence of narcissism that is necessary to believe you’re the recipient of miracles is staggering
@@timg7627 whatever floats your boat. I was one way and now I’m not. I was in the hospital in 2014 for myocarditis. They shouldn’t have been able to resuscitate me as my output after was only 5% which is medically impossible. They worked on me for 3.5 - 4 days and told my family to put me in a hospice. A woman prayed that night and had a vision of angels surrounding the bed. I woke the next morning as they withheld the tranquilizer. They didn’t withhold so I would wake and be alive. I was supposed to rouse & die. That’s my truth and it is thee truth.
@@michaelbrickley2443 cool it worked out for you.
I don’t doubt you believe that but it’s not evidence for a miracle and it’s certainly not evidence for any god let alone the one specific god you attribute this too. What you’re doing is text book confirmation bias.
Improbable events happen regularly. It’s what happened to you. The fact there was prayer and a vision is anecdotal. Does not prove a thing and is not evident for a miracle
why would someone want to accept Jesus, they would have to humble themselves, they would have to try and refrain from some of the most pleasurable things, they would have to realize there is someone greater than them. I understand why
I'm coming to welcome seeing the proud "ceceroxy" USERID.
Jesus is not real you fucking moron
Although I side with Collins, he has given us reason to doubt whether he'd follow through on his willingness to, *"I will be happy to listen to their arguments"* (see ~ 3;50)
This was his modus operandi when faced with a different conundrum,
Hi Tony and Cliff,
This proposal from the three fringe epidemiologists who met with the Secretary seems to be getting a lot of attention - and even a co-signature from Nobel Prize winner Mike Leavitt at Stanford. There needs to be a quick and devastating published take down of its premises. I don't see anything like that on line vet - is it underway?
Francis
or his declaration that we can say with great confidence that Covid originated in nature?
Dawkins is a legend.
Once God creates sentient creatures with emotions and ability to suffer, he can't do whatever he wants. He can't sit back and say suffering is because of sin or there is reason for it. Even God can't be above laws of justice and fairness
hes been good at designing deadly diseases
God certainly can do whatever He wants -- nothing constrains Him to be kind or fair (somewhat unfortunately).
Let's nonetheless hope He IS kind and fair.
@@20july1944
Your concept of God belongs to an era when kings ruled over his subjects with absolute power. The social, moral values have changed, mate. Those days even human rights were not yet conceptualised. And now we recognize even animals have rights.
God doesn't have any rights over us unless we agree to it.
@@20july1944
If he can do what he wants, he's not very nice given he's inflicted misery on millions of starving children
@@williamwallace6508 famine is a result of bad governments where you PERMIT people to ACCEPT a countries 'rule of law' as SOVEREIGN over them. and no other country can intervene EXCEPT through WAR? now the Judeo-Christian God demonstrated another OPTION was available. firstly the command to be compassionate to WIDOWS and ORPHANS. for if you see a NEED to be compassionate with this group then other groups begin to be seen in your line of vision such as poverty. God also CANCELED THE DEBT. it was man who let man get into debt and for it to become worse with each passing day. it was man that DID NOT trust God. this is WHY suffering exists in the world. many diseases and viruses are the result of LIFESTYLE choices. sexual diseases a result of the care free nature NOT TO CARE. who can tell the role of alcohol over thousands of generations of humans to be responsible for things.
I think that naturalism requires even greater miracles, because it has miracles with no governor, no miracle maker. I think this makes Dawkins faith greater than the Christians.
eh? science is the based on theory and tested fact based fact, whereas Relgion is the acceptance of pseudoscience.
What seems more likely?
That a man fed 5000 with a Hovis loaf and a packet of 30 birds eye fish fingers....or that a bunch of dudes made up some BS story?
To be fair, it's the thiests' imposed presupposition that there is an intellectual entity or force behind the precision in the scientific reality. Like, what's makes believing that reality it is what it is less rational than the plausibility of an intellectual force of God, from a neutral standpoint?
@@williamwallace6508
Can you argue for that? Can you answer ANY of the origins questions?
@@VGameL0v3e12sF012Ree The question is WHAT "reality" entails.
Do you think our universe began with a big bang?
Speaking as a Christian and Old Earth Creationist, I definitely DO think there was a big bang.
Do you?
I don't think Mr. Dawkins is going to face judgement . There is a subtle difference between a 'god-fearing' and a 'pious'. Dawkins is free from any guilt ensuing out of 'god-fear' .
Quantum Physics has shown that Reality is based on Probabilities.
A statistical impossibility is defined as *_“a probability that is so low as to not be worthy of mentioning. Sometimes it is quoted as 1/10^50 although the cutoff is inherently arbitrary. Although not truly impossible the probability is low enough so as to not bear mention in a Rational, Reasonable argument."_* The probability of finding one particular atom out of all of the atoms in the universe has been estimated to be 1/10^80. The probability of a functional 150 amino acid protein chain forming by chance is 1/10^164. It has been calculated that the probability of DNA forming by chance is 1/10^119,000. The probability of random chance protein-protein linkages in a cell is 1/10^79,000,000,000. Based on just these three cellular components, it would be far more *Rational and Reasonable* to conclude that the cell was not formed by undirected random natural processes. Note: Abiogenesis Hypothesis posits that un-directed random natural processes, i.e. random chance formation, of molecules led to living organisms. Natural selection has no effect on individual atoms and molecules on the micro scale in a prebiotic environment. (*For reference, peptides/proteins can vary in size from 3 amino acid chains to 34,000 amino acid chains. Some scientists consider 300-400 amino acid protein chains to be the average size. There are 42,000,000 protein molecules in just one (1) simple cell, each protein requiring precise assembly. There are approx. 30,000,000,000,000 cells in the human body.) Furthermore, of all the physical laws and constants, just the Cosmological Constant alone is tuned to a level of 1/10^120; not to mention the fine-tuning of the Mass-Energy distribution of early universe which is 1/ 10^10^123. Therefore, in the fine-tuning argument, it would be more *Rational and Reasonable* to conclude that the multi-verse is not the correct answer while trying to determine the origin of the universe.
A "Miracle" is considered to be an event with a probability of occurrence of 1/10^6. Abiogenesis, RNA World Hypothesis, and Multiverse would all far, far, far exceed any "Miracle". Yet, these extremely *Irrational and Unreasonable* hypotheses are what many of the world’s top scientists _‘must’_ believe in and promote because of a prior commitment to a strictly arbitrary, subjective, biased, narrow, limiting, materialistic ideology / worldview.
Every idea, number, concept, thought, theory, mathematical equation, abstraction, qualia, Information, etc. existing within and expressed by anyone is "Immaterial" or "Non-material". The very idea or concept of "Materialism" is an immaterial entity and by it's own definition does not exist. Modern science seems to be stuck in archaic, subjective, biased ideologies that have inadequately attempted to define the "nature of reality" or the "reality of nature" for millenia. A Paradigm Shift in ‘Science’ is needed for humanity to advance. A major part of this Science Paradigm Shift would be the formal acknowledgment by the scientific community of the existence of "Immaterial" or "Non-material" entities as verified and confirmed by discoveries in Quantum Physics.
Love it! I think the exact same thing. My first question to all atheists is, “What’s the probability of abiogenesis occurring?” Most haven’t a clue, but beyond that most have never even thought about it, which is totally beyond me.
What are the chances of a magic man - a son of god no less, rising from the dead 2000 yrs ago with zero hard evidence...versus the chance that some dudes made up fancy stories?
What seems more likely?
@@zhengfuukusheng9238 two totally different things. You’re saying you’re not a Christian. Fine and dandy. To each his own.
@@joeschmoe1794 Not sure I understand what you mean, what are two different things. I'm trying to find out what people think is more likely. That some sort of magical man rose from the dead, or that some folks made up fancy stories. Are there any other options?
Would be keen to find out what your position is on this
@@zhengfuukusheng9238 Dude, all you’re saying is you’re not a Christian.
Cognitive dissonance is fascinating.
Regardless of who you referred to, it is unwarranted.
As usual, someone being a prick who again thinks they're smarter than everyone else.
Look at the bottom of the gulf of Aqaba - find lots of chariot wheels, axles and some thigh bones from Egypt sea crossing.
Nah - let me see all the evidence. PS: that means thousands of pics of chariot wheels. Get to it now
Another Ron Wyatt bullshit believer.
More than a few videos from different persons recording at different times search for them
No evidence presented, but yet more assertions. FAIL
The egyotians never wrote about exodus or the events leading to it.... or about Moses
Francis Collins said ''I believe in Jesus' resurrection and without it my Christian faith doesn't have any substance''
In which case, it looks like your Christian faith doesn't have any substance LMFAO
Dawkins was friendly here and not hostile because he aknowledges and respects Francis Collins as a fellow biologist who has been involved with huge scientific discoveries. he just rejects any of the unnecessary supernatural stuff, as do i
Dawkins is stuck in a purely scientific world, whereas Collins has added to his scientific world by embracing the truth of Jesus Christ.
He was an Atheist or agnostic and came to faith in God from following the science. So he added Christianity, not science.
SilverSurfer
Clueless crap.
@@Dr.Ian-Plect And you are a doctor? Don’t tell me, gender studies. You will have to do better than simply saying clueless crap, as you ought to, as a doctor, IF you really are one. Your statement certainly wouldn’t indicate that, unless you’re a Liberal lefty that is. So go on, O clued up one, spill the beans. Let’s see what gems of pure unadulterated truth lie within your cranial cavity.
Yes the natural world. There is ZERO evidence of anything more.
There is ZERO evidence of the supernatural
I’m not a Christian. But Dawkins’ lack of understanding of the most basic concepts in theology and facts about religion is truly startling. Anyone who’s seriously read the God Delusion knows he has virtually no idea what he’s talking about. Admittedly because he doesn’t consider it a valid field of study. Yet proceeds to wade into topics in which he finds himself hopelessly out of his depth. See virtually any discussion he’s ever had with serious, non-YEC Christian and Jewish theologians and scholars.
Are you a theist?
Yeah, when it comes to theology, Dawkins has an adolescent understanding.
It’s comparable to a teenager taking a middle school biology class and thinking they have a deep understanding of biology.
Theology = comic studies
Theology is not a an intellectual exercise. It is stupid. Christianity and its disgusting enfant terrible, Islam, are beyond stupid. If you want to actually dive into spirituality and ways to think about reality, head over to Vedānta, Buddhism and Yoga.@@Joe-gi3nj
Well , the problem is when you take poor biblical interpretations to argue against something like why God allows natural disasters , you end up looking rather foolish. I believe God did create all things , but then the miracles mentioned in the Bible are small and insignificant in comparison to all His creation until that time.
Who says your interpretation of the bible is correct and Richard's is "poor"? There's no authority on how to take the bible, hence the multitude of denominations and subjective interpretations. To claim yours is the correct one could be seen as rather arrogant, no?
Miracles don't happen, there is always a scientific reason for that, and god can't do anything, there's limitations for everyone
3:28 Here is the rub, as I see it. For Collins reality is such that the natural and the supernatural co-exist on the same stage, as it were. For Dawkins reality is such that nature is natural, and the slightest real miracle would destroy nature as nature. Dawkins has taken to heart the biblical advice No man can serve two masters. To Collins and like believers, it seems to me, falls the task of explaining the relationship between the supernatural and the natural, exactly how they share the stage without nature falling off.
Not the same stage, no more than Andrew Lloyd Weber is on the same stage with the Phantom. One is eternal, the other created.
@@leedise2383Do miracles, supernatural events happen or don't they? If one thinks that they do, it seems to me, such a one also thinks that they share the stage with natural events.
So I take it that you think that the world was created. I think the world is natural. A created thing is an artifact. Something that is an artifact is not a natural thing. So thinking that the world is created is thinking nature is unnatural.
@@arthurwieczorek4894 This is an interesting line of thought, my friend. I’m not sure I completely understand. When you mentioned that for Collins and the like, the natural and supernatural ‘share the same stage’: what do you mean by ‘stage’ and do you take to mean that unnatural and supernatural are interchangeable or equivalent things?
What I’m understanding is that basically, a four-legged lacquered chair for example, is not natural because it was created; is it therefore, ‘supernatural’ or unnatural?
There ARE miracles that happened after those years: our Lady of Guadalupe, eucharistic miracles, saints like Padre Pio, etc!
Let us see the evidence, or have it be dismissed as a bogus claim
Bullshit!
@@Hhjhfu247 Some people ask for evidence for God, but they can't handle it and ignore an flatly deny when confronted with it.
The Shroud of Turin is evidence for Christs and people go to great lengths to deny and try to disprove it, but fail.
@@Hhjhfu247 No one can answer, what you ask. The universe is a deadly place not suitable for a fragile life like us.
Space is almost absolute zero (where atoms stop moving) at -270 degrees, with deadly radiations, exploding stars, black holes, supernovas, nebula clouds...Our rare earth sits in the Goldilocks zone of our solar system, and where our solar system is located in a relatively small area of the habitable zone of our Milky Way, far away from the dense center and the spiral arms....We must wonder why our tiny earth even exist in this vast universe...96 billion light years big
The humans use of the mathematical disciplines ...are the works of that reason by which men surpass beasts, for brutes cannot number, weigh, and measure.
The Laws of nature are ordered all things in measure, and number, and weight and that man alone have the unerring knowledge of what exists, and to know the structure of the world. From the tens of millions of specie that ever existed on earth only humans are endowed with these gifts.
Some men call themselves smart, but there are smarter men that sees what they do not see. Only humans can unlock the mysteries of creation through math, science, and philosophy. Only humans can grasp, the mind of God.
@@Hhjhfu247 yeah, those are important questions. But if you open, not only rationally, to God, it will shed a new and freshing light over them
If reasonable people like Collins can be so irrational what does it say about humanity.
We've been doomed from the beginning. We're no different than cow's grazing in a field. Some of us just think we're more special than others because they read it in a book that was a great work of fiction thousands of years ago.
Enjoyed this tidbit though I wish the fact that miracles reportedly continued through Jesus’ disciples , including thru Paul who also reportedly raised the dead, would be discussed.
what Bible scholars doesn't believe in miracles. please answer
Shit ones
Lots of Bible scholars are atheists, presumably they don't believe in miracles.
I'm a Christian and believe Jesus performed every miracle the gospels report, but there are plenty of scholars that don't.
Most biblical scholars agree Moses was not a real person. Towers built out of clay can't reach the sky, for obvious reasons or we descend from Adam& Eve is not genetically possible. Bart Ehrman is worth a look up if your after answers.
Dr Bart Ehrman is just one scholar. A Once-upon-a-time fundamentalist Christian, until he actually examined what he was believing, and couldn’t square the idea of suffering. Christianity’s biggest stumbling block….suffering.
@@jennifer97363 No one cares what your perception of God is, the first thing to decide is whether He exists or not.
You clearly hate the idea of God, but that doesn't prove anything either way and unless we care about your welfare personally (I don't) your unsupported feelings are meaningless.
So Francis is suggesting further reading when he is in a discussion? It must mean that that book contains the definitive answer and he cant convey it to us.
Maybe so. Have you read it? Are you willing to?
@@jessebryant9233 I might. But it will definitely not be the next book I read. There are many many more important ones.
@@charlesredbridge5870 more important ?? That’s too funny.. letter to the Colossians?
When you’re done try “can we trust the gospels” by p. Williams. I dare you lol
Chrischuns: people who read a book - and decided to believe it. (actually that's not entirely true - many heard it from a priest and never bothered to read it for themselves, certainly not thoroughly)
@@Portekberm So are you an atheist?
Evidence for the resurrection? Zero.
I don't know about that. Many NT scholars agree about the empty tomb narrative, post-mortem appearances, and the disciples'willingness to die for the truth of their belief. In fact the Hebrew scholar, Pinchas Lapide, said, on the basis of such evidences, he believed that the God of Israel raised Jesus from the dead!
@@martinhal-fead84933 post “Mortem” sightings could explained by the Islamic imposter theory
Dave Pugh: how do you think Christianity got started WITHOUT a resurrection. Think about that and we can discuss it.
@@samhangster Who was this imposter and why did he look so much like Jesus that it fooled his family and closest followers?
Possible, but very hard to believe.
@@20july1944 easier for me to believe that he was resurrected. I already believe Jesus will be resurrected once in the future, but twice just doesn’t make sense. Also the imposter was put on the cross. He was bloodied and ragged with long hair probably covering his face. Easy to mistake in such a time of creulity. Post mortem sightings are easily explained by Jesus’s actual presence before ascending to heaven.
But why is God mute? If God were truly all powerful and actually cared about our salvation he would give us all clear instructions in acway all of us could understand. But He never does.
He’s more patient and friendly because he knows that some day he’s not gonna be the famous scientist anymore and he has to face judgment 😮
It’s dawning on him…
Who's gonna judge him?
@@dragonboy99 sky daddy
Dawkins' arguments basically amount to "it doesnt make sense to me". He has nothing else to say. Void of any actually sophisticated argument
bs
I am praying for Dawkins and I agree with you he has nothing to say. someone needs to remind him that a atheist is a person that desperately doesn't want to be held accountable. we need to hear more about sin in any debate like this. God bless you
@@mrtennessee6862 more laughable bs
How does it make any sense at all. God intervenes in whatever random bs 2000 years ago but he wont prevent the creation of HIV naturally xD so goddamn funny
because it doesn't make sense
Anybody who starts of by referring to god and to it as “he” is clearly starting from a false premise and will not be argued with.
I'm a Christian, but I don't believe this to be a slam-dunk conversation. Not at all. Rather, two intelligent men begin with very different understandings regarding the nature of reality. Their conclusions are, respectively, inevitable.
When you have a renowned scientist believing that Jonah was swallowed by whale, no arguments can change his mind.
Is there a problem believing God can make that happen?
You could say the same about a renowned scientist who believes that random, unguided processes could produce highly sophisticated, specified complex systems.
“Random chance and enough time is enough”, they say; despite there being no evidence random chance is even capable of such phenomena, despite the amount of time.
He didn't say that, did he? I don't ask you to think that, but I ask you to reason from science and history as appropriate.
@@ronnied1172 you have to demonstrate with verifiable evidence that there exists a God in the first place before you make the next step to say yep this God can do X
Do you have an argument FOR what you assert? Reading Joe's comment, I think this shows the profound faith of Sir. Richard Dawkins. What would be just 3 empirically verifiable scientific evidences that you personally find compelling regarding the naturalistic worldview?
I feel a pity on Dawkins, God has mercy on him, save him
Yes, praise Allah!!!
May Odin allow him into Valhalla.
@@matthewlin1674 Are you an atheist? I'd like to discuss that via science if you're interested.
@D Sullivan Are you an atheist? I'd like to discuss that via science if you're interested.
Don't worry. The flying spaghetti monster is merciful
I have witnessed miracles with medical proof!
Dear Viewers, Because we don't know :-
1) who created the universe?
2) Who created life on this planet ?
3) Is there any life on any other planet?
4) Is there a soul with every living thing including humans?
5) what happens to us when we loose physical form?
6) Is it possible to create space and matter from scratch?
7) Is it possible for a person to come alive after his/her death, after the body as been destroyed,
in the same physical form can god do it?
8) Is it possible for spirit to travel to other planet or can living talk to them?
9) Is God a person?
and many such haunting questions like these has no answers .. we assume there is a great power which set all
these things in motion.
Science has no means to answer questions related to non material/intangible things like aakasha, soul, spirit,
ether, space, field etc .. it has no means to answer such questions , so what science can not answer(as of now)
we attribute it to great power god .. which or whose god i m not sure ..
Namaste
1) the most high Creator God (Yah)
2) also Yah (God)
3) there are spiritual life forms but they are in different realms, not in outer space
4) only humans are granted souls
5) we die and are forever separated from God, unless we choose to be saved through Jesus, then we are resurrected instead of judged
6) there is nothing new under the sun
7) the resurrected will be given new bodies
8) the barriers between the spiritual realm and material realm can be blurred, but we are not to seek out spirits and we should test them if we encounter them to see if they are of God
9) Jesus was/is fully human and fully God. He is the son of God and personhood of God made divine through the Holy Spirit.
I think the Bible does the best to answer these questions and almost all other religions are offshoots of Yah's Word. Some are deceptive perversions, and others are mostly good they just miss out on Jesus being the only way.
There are thousands of miracles done by Saints.
God does miracle through saints not directly from them...
"There are thousands of miracles done by Saints."
- NO, there are CLAIMS of miracles that require substantiation. What a pathetic, unsupported statement
@@factualgravity9028 "There are thousands of miracles done by Saints."
- NO, there are CLAIMS of miracles that require substantiation. What a pathetic, unsupported statement
Lmao
@@michaelanderson7715 So you are saying that Saints Themselves are Able to do Miracle Without God.. Really?
Ironically, Richard Dawkins as well as most people believe in a miracle, I.e., the supernatural…
As he believes in the “some-thing” called the universe, which came in existence from “no-thing”…
By definition a super-natural”…”miraculous” occurrence.
The Kalam in a nutshell
The irony is that the idea that natural laws could give rise to specified complex biological systems, some of which have the capability of rational intelligence, is itself a miracle.
There’s literally nothing mundane about it.
Unintelligent processes are not known to produce specified complexity.
@@Joe-gi3nj
It sure takes an incredible amount of faith, doesn't it?
Jesse Bryant
It does.
I appreciate who ever coined the phrase “Darwinism of the gaps” to describe the idea that random, unguided processes could spontaneously produce sophisticated specified complexity (and rational intelligence) through random chance and enough time.
“We don’t know how this specified complexity could have arose, but surely, if given enough time, random unguided processes can explain it; despite no evidence suggesting they can and all empirical evidence suggesting they’re insufficient to explain it”
@@Joe-gi3nj
For sure, that "quote" is a statement of pure and unjustified faith! _Who said it?_
does the guy with the stach _really_ believe that? i mean..really?
Dawkin's is my hero. I am always fascinated by atheist persons! Faith is not evidence based science. Faith is turning away from science for some so called 'humanist reasoning' .
Christians trying to explain how God can do anything sounds like a comicon conversation lol
well you being here is funny. why exactly are you here? do you enjoy wasting your life on something you don't believe?
Almost as funny as saying nothing created everything
@@marincusman9303 yeah seriously lmao. Like saying nothing created God 😂
@@destroslash321 God wasn’t created but nice try
@@marincusman9303 ? 😂
The earliest accounts that we have of Jesus' supposed resurrection comes at least 100 years after its supposed happening. That is not a reliable eyewitness account.
PSH where did you hear that? The people that were in his life time wrote those accounts. So 100 years after does not make any sense.
Paul wrote 15 years after
Paul and Other Synoptic Gospels :You forgot me?
@@eddiespiked do you have any evidence that Paul ever met Jesus pre-resurrection?
@@factualgravity9028 Our earliest fragments of any gospel, or any part of the new testament, date to later than 100AD. For all we know it was all fabricated.
For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. Hebrews 3:4
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 1:20
How can a smart man like Francis Collins believe in this nonsense
Francis Collins is a lunatic, his silly smile says it all.
A lunatic who happened to be a director of the National Human Genome Research Institute. Remarkable scientist. There have been many scientists called lunatics. That's why they have been so successful :)
@@travellingmac2177 Very true, He is also the head for our fight against Covid.
No miracles for all the innocents killed by covid! But of of course "god" has a plan or a punishment in mind. The hell with that!
@@travellingmac2177 for that guy Who called Francis Collins as Lunatic even Isaac newton will be a Lunatic...
By the expressions on his face it is clear that Francis Collins doesn’t actually believe this stuff. After all it would be a little embarrassing for any credible scientist to promote the supernatural and legitimise miracle claims. Based on the observation of the little smirks that dance around the corners of his lips after each proclamation, I suspect that he has simply won a bet with a friend that he can wind up Richard Dawkins!
Believing the unbelievable is impossible.
Who determines the unbelievable?
That my good friend is called a tautology
Before,you talk about god why don't you learn the truths about why we may have , different climates ,wether conditions, tornados, earthquakes in different regions on the planet first.
It's interesting that the whole tenure of the Qur'an is against miracles. Did God really split the sea for Moses and the Israelites? Or was it a natural phenomena due to tides and the wind?
A brilliant scientist believes in the supernatural.
I find that breathing and disturbing.
Many brilliant scientists had a deep faith in Christ: Pascal, Newton, Kelvin, Babbage, Clerk-Maxwell, gauss, Dalton, Boyle, Euler... etc etc
Collins is very smart. But.... There is no such thing as god, any god. He should know that.
As God is the author & creator of all life, His immutable laws of nature are actually proven by His exceptions to those laws, which we call "miracles". I personally have been delivered from death-defying experiences in which others died, but I was not harmed except in my mind being traumatized by seeing others harmed.God is very active in our world & gave many guidelines for life. He can suspend His natural order when it suits His longterm will. Accepting this is crucial, at least to me, to claim faith in His existemce, & His being a good, benvolent Father. I enjoyed this discussion. I listened to Dr Clyde Narramore of Biola University all throughout the 70s-80s on christian radio. I learned to question, but to trust that God would answer.
Amazing, respectful discourse, much needed in our world today.
Your personal experience's aren't proof.
Imagine being as intelligent as Collins and yet still believing in the most childish hogwash
Imagine being as intelligent as Hawking and yet still believing that the universe created itself out of nothing
@@Lydiansolo Putting aside the question of why you find that conclusion so self-evidently absurd, I suspect Hawking wasn't anywhere near as attached to that conclusion as any theist is attached to the idea that an invisible benevolent deity snapped his fingers and the cosmos appeared. Science eschews dogma at every step, whereas dogma is the lifeblood of religious belief.
I mean what's the big deal of beileving in miracles if you believe in God that's really dumb
Mr Collins really needs to get some good therapy if he believes in miracles. How can anyone who is very obviously intelligent be so deluded as to believe in God.
Isn't a Atheist point a view kind of miracle that chemicals arranged themselves made life. That sounds like a miracle in a way.
I see alot of people doubting the reserection miracle, so I present you with another perspective from the Islamic Faith where we also have mass testified miracles which have a chain of narration of witness passing down the miracle that they all saw. According to David Hume, he would accept a miracle if it was mass testified, and I believe that the Miracles of the prophet was
Eyewitness accounts by a bunch of mostly illiterate ancient people aren't the knock dead piece of evidence that you think it is.
How much do you want to bet that the basis of your faith is fallacious?
I am Catholic. I have no doubt what you say is in fact true for many miracles in Islam. God leaves nobody short. Interesting though the recent book (2019) by the german author on the 21 Coptic Martys beheaded by ISIS in north africa. Many moslems came to the village to invoke their intercession and many moslems received their own miracles there. The same is very apparent in the Lebanon with St Charbel. Many moslems speak of miracles from God there too via the intercession of the canonisded saint who clearly loves moslems. I would be interested to know of any moslem saints who are recorded as being miracle workers. Can you help?
@@jjcm3135 Why would they invoke their intercession and then kill them?
@@alijawad432 The chains of narration are meaningless as evidence.
@@20july1944 thats just not true. U have to take any history class
By natural disaster and poverty and diseases God test people
Why ?
@@caryfrancis8030 for separating true believers
@@e.h908 Then your god is an idiot.
There is no need for people to suffer.
How cruel when it is within his power to make things better.
You worship that ?
I'm 57 now. As middle age approached, my religious faith waned, and I eventually wore an uncomfortable "Atheist" coat for a while. While I'm back to being a believer of sorts, I'm still very sympathetic to Dawkins, though I find the materialist/non-materialist debate to be mostly pointless. Regarding the resurrection, the real resurrection that Christians should be focused on is the one that is suppose to happen in their own life. The real Christian message is that WE can be brought back to life in this life. So I honestly don't care if Jesus (assuming he really existed) was actually raised from the dead, or if it's simply a myth that speaks to our deepest truth.
What do you "believe" now?
I'm curious what this deepest truth is. Can you say more about being brought back to life in this life, as you put it? I know the traditional Christian answer, I'm looking for your particular perspective which sounds like it might be a little different. Cheers.
Would anyone believe it today if
a girl from their town claimed she was preggers by god?
A neighbour claimed he'd walked on liguid water in a lake, but had no foto/ video evidence to show for it?
A man on the street offers to sell a donkey that speaks fluent Chinese and Spanish?
NO - they wouldn't. Yet some believe similar tales from a 2,000 year old book of doubtable provenance
If Jesus didn't exist, and raise from the dead, there is no resurrection for anyone. 🤷🏼♂️
There was NO Jeesus
And Collins should read Bart Erhman's argument about the implausibility of the resurrection story given that the burial itself would have been highly exceptional from a historical point of view. Or perhaps he should look into Richard Carrier's proposal of the whole thing to be a myth. After all, these Christians exhibit significant wishful thinking and confirmation bias when they only look at Jesús resurrection but at the same time they reject the possible resurrection of other deities previous to Jesus, which suspiciously had very similar stories. Dawkins was right to call him out on his unscientific attitude.
There were witnesses to the resurrection who persisted in their story for forty years in spite of being reviled, beaten, imprisoned, exiled, and martyred.
People die for lies all the time, but not knowingly. The witnesses held to their story to the end.
I would love to see that old fool Dawkins debate Dr Bernardo Kastrup, so he could wipe the floor with him.
I dont think Francis really believes what he says he does….he wants to, badly. But many people, such as many dear to me, are not capable of realising belief is not a matter of choice … F Collins is NOT ‘allowing for possibility’ only. The way I see it is, he sort of needs to accept such highly improbable possibility. We all are allowing it, but are consistently dissuaded by realities we see and face…Basically, most people (including those that declare to believe in a God - as most find it terrifying to think there are none) actually think it is EXTREMELY unlikely resurrection occurred 😁
Do you consider yourself science-literate?
Miracles only occur to show us the full force of Almighty God's refined electromagnetic laws to encourage us to follow His righteous electromagnetic laws...and here is the crux of it all...by following Righteousness we are using the same electromagnetic laws that speak directly to our genetic health in a refined way rather than the 'reaching out for vital needs' of the evolutionary way...and Almighty God is in charge of both.
Quantum physics... our consciousness participates...we have to learn to intervene together in unity. We are power generators and can be for good or bad.
No, consciousness is irrelevant in quantum physics. Read about decoherence and stop saying random bs
@@TopoTopaco just because you know the word decoherence doesnt make it any less odd that something comes out of nothing. Is it random bs to say that we can either be a force for good or bad? Lol. 1000 years from now we will seem primitive in our understanding.
@@jms4406 Why are you jumping from 1 toppic to another? Cant you just retract your empty assertion and move on?
@@TopoTopaco one of the topics discussed was Francis position on gods frequency of intervention. My position is that consciousness takes preeminence and why would such a being do what we can do for ourselves. i.e. If we collectively decide to stop wars war would stop. Dont try to act humble now lol
@@jms4406 Then don't mention quantum physics ffs it has nothing to do with human action or evil.
And I’m allowing the possibility that a bunch of people in the Middle East wrote some fun and fantastical stories, then it kinda all just got out of hand 😅
Yet, 2000 years later those stories are still talked about. 🤔 miracles still happening, 🤔 Jesus & his disciples still talked about after 2000 years. Takes the spirit of God in order to get an understanding of the Bible. But people like Dawkins resist truth so he will be without understanding just like scientist / atheist.
Looks like you got a few book there ,my friend. To bad they were all written to put you to sleep , bet you haven't made through one of them. Real books contain truths, not materialistic scientific nonsense.
O wise one, suggest then some 'real' books.
@@JD-ro7xe np ,you probably couldn't read them correctly though.
The Trinity is an immortality myth. It does away with corporeality. There is no sexual union. Therefore there is no biological generation. Therefore there is no degeneration. Therefore, both generations are conflated. Father and son. And it is a ghost story. Ghosts are common vehicles for immortality tales. And ghosts also serves as an intermediary between life and death. . . This myth accords with religions which are immortality ideologies. The Trinity myth also serve as a mechanism to have God contact (!) with people. Similar in a way to Moses climbing up Mt. Sinai. Siegfried the Norse god was the son of Odin by a human female. . . .
Much respect to both gentlemen but, I’m taking Richards side on this one. You can’t say that laws of the universe explain things like viruses but then also believe in miracles. When you believe in miracles, you are saying that God can turn off these laws at any time he pleases. This makes the laws completely unnecessary, especially considering that God is also supposed to be all-knowing. Not to mention that the miracles he supposedly did, did not help humanity with anything. Turning water into wine, walking on water, raising from the dead, these things help us with nothing. So, what was his point in doing these things? Trying to impress us? Or, perhaps the point was to prove that he is God? Well, in that case he should’ve actually proven it. I certainly respect Collins work in science but, his God model has not yet been accepted by science, not even as a hypothesis. Therefore, it is merely a philosophical view, and one that does not make sense to me.
Richard Dawkins is a very poor philosopher
Yeah, he's an evolutionary biologist with a PhD.
@@caryfrancis8030 not a PhD in philosophy. If you listen to him critically, there's a lot of flaws in his logoc
@@pdworld3421 Flaws in his logic ?
Name one.
Richard Dawkins questions miracles? He believes in evolution, which is based on nothing but miracles.
Is it really consistency that Richard is looking for? Consistency is “If A and not B then C and not D.” God is the source of all things. Everything comes from Him. It doesn’t come from the universe or any other physical thing. The universe consistently does nothing of its own. God can’t make mistakes. We can because we are a physical fabrication. The laws of the universe hold true that matter and energy cannot make or direct themselves. God said if you sin you die. If you don’t sin you live. So everything that happens is a part of the judgment as a result of our own sins on us. God can offer relief if we understand that God is the only source of relief. Only your Maker can perfectly cover for you Himself and remake you again from the inside out by the power of His true word as no one else can. Jesus was healing every disease and what was our response? We killed Him proving what was in our hearts. We don’t deserve anything. Everything that we have is by the grace of God and we will all finish dying in the end because it what is due to us. It’s really not so complicated. God is still proving what is in our hearts. This universe is a physical fabrication that is neither good nor bad. It’s what we choose to do that is good or bad whether we tell the truth or lie against the truth. Our sins are ultimately on and against our Maker so God literally showed our sins to be on and against our Maker when we killed His only Son our only hope. In killing God’s Son a perfect sacrifice was made in order to send everyone His Holy Spirit to convince each one of us of our sin, convince us of righteousness and to convince us of the coming judgment. The Holy Spirit is now our only link to God. Salvation is through sanctification by the Spirit and believing what is true.
Earthquake have nothing to do with God . What book are these guys reading ,god becoming human ,this whole debate nonsense, these guys are way in over there heads ,who would agree to a debate ,when they had no idea about the topics of the debate , I will tell you who ,an individual whos ego is way to big ,and they think they are smarter than they are , they said absolutely nothing ,other then argue like 12 year old boy ,over there own inconsistent view about the world . This dosnt benefit anyone, only truth ,facts , knowledge matters .
I really like the idea of a benevolent god who places humans and other species on a planet with tectonic plates. What a god indeedl
If you would like to accept Jesus as your Savior please pray this aloud: "Lord Jesus, I repent of my sins and surrender my life. Wash me clean. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. That he died on the cross for my sins and rose again on the third day for my Victory, I believe that in my heart and make confession with my mouth, that Jesus is my Savior and Lord.
Man, Christians are obsessed with Dawkins aren’t they?
The amount of clips I’ve seen posted from this convo.
I fail to see how your conclusion follows from your premise. Dawkins is one of the most prominent prophets of the religion of atheism/naturalism, and clearly, Christians are willing to engage, converse, and listen to what those who disagree with them say. Maybe you think that is a bad thing?
As a Christian, I agree with you that it is questionable how much air-time "Unbelievable" gives this douchebag, but we're free to ignore it.
I'm here to chat with atheists, don't care what Dawkins thinks.
Lots of glitches for the past month in the CZcams comments section. Counter says 3, I see only 2. Someone's comment is missing...
He (Justin Brierley) does this with every one of his extended convos.
What the hell are you even talking about?
This isn’t special to Dawkins
@@jessebryant9233 it was an observation. I do hear way more about Dawkins from Christian’s than I do any atheist. The amount of times I’ve heard the “pitiless indifference” quote in church is amazing.
Is the big bang considered a miracle? Just asking
There is just one theme running throughout the Holy Bible...Almighty God is a God over all electromagnetic laws. Secreted within His 'word' is an electromagnetic science and those who participate in His 'word' are participating in His science. Our greatest problem today is that an electromagnetic storm is brewing in the Earth's surrounding electromagnetic field. It will cause many global tribulations but we know that it will pass. We will need those electromagnetic laws of righteousness to get through it all.
Miracles are all around us.
One epistemological error (epistemological error because religion and Francis Collins' faith does not adhere to logic) I believe Francis Collins is making is in his rejection of the scientific view the replacement for Collins' is his own culture's explanation of such phenomenon. It shows what I call the bias of locality since Collins decides on an explanation that is pervasive within his own culture. If he had chosen a different religion, it would at least illustrate that he was searching for the truth (as much as one that rejects science can). But by accepting his own culture by default, Collins' illustrates nothing more than the influence culture can have on shaping one's opinions. This is anathema to science and is the reason in science that we don't have, for example, Jewish physics and Arab physics - just physics. The principles apply cross culturally and allow for results to be duplicated across the globe regardless of one's personal beliefs.
It's sad when a scientist, who should have been trained in critical thinking and doing whatever it takes to avoid fooling yourself, gets seduced by comforting fairy tales that tell him that he will survive the death of his brain. I wish him well on his spiritual journey. Perhaps he will one day see the light and rediscover the magic of reality.
Lol, so Frank personally knows these "reliable witnesses" then ??..must older than he looks...
Where did you hear him say that he personally knows them?
Lisa, Are you an atheist? I'd like to discuss that via science if you're interested.
Trumpists swear Trump is god, whose to argue! If miracles do exist!
Richard……Why bother!
Are you an atheist? I'd like to discuss that via science if you're interested.
Don't ask Richard "WHY" questions. He claims they are stupid... even though scientific inquiry is all about WHY things operate the way they do. Atheism = world of contradiction!
Jesse Bryant
To be fair, there’s a difference between “why” of function and “why” of agency.
Trying to rationalize with Francis Collins is an 'exercise in futility.' Won't wast two seconds of my time.
If there’s an entity overseeing this world, it sure isn’t the ridiculous god-of-the-bible. SO much wrong with that story.
It’s stunning that someone who calls himself a scientist, supposedly using the scientific method,also calls himself a believer of miracles, saying there is plentiful,credible evidence of same. I’m embarrassed for him, just by listening.
Who are you to say so?
@@michaeldukes4108 Do you have to be a real ‘somebody’ to have an opinion, a perspective, a point-of-view? LOL What is a real somebody anyway? Who are they in the world- just Christians?
@@jennifer97363 Yes, you need relevant evidence to have a relevant opinion. I'd be happy to discuss either the origin of the universe or the origin of Christianity if you can defend your claim that Christianity is "ridiculous."
@@20july1944 And you’re the judge and jury on what’s ‘relevant’? Oh,please!
1. Not the God of the Bible? How do you know that? How did you come to that conclusion?
2. So much "wrong"? What do you mean by that?
3. The dude who first officially formulated the scientific method-was a Bible believing, young earth creationist!
4. So if there are no 'miracles' how do you explain the origins of the universe and life? What natural processes could cause nature to come into existence? (See the problem there?)
5. Will you give credibility to your own naturalistic faith or should we be embarrassed for you before you even try to answer?
Dawkins has it both ways. He can design a set and hire stage hands to show you the "evolution of the eye lens", but it was totally not designed or orchestrated in nature. What a joke.
"You must see that you are applying your own view, and that anything you see that cannot be explained naturally must be an intellectual error"-that you for calling him out Francis.
What reason do you have for believing it was designed other than that it is complex? Simplicity is the sign of design, not complexity.
@@riggs234 what is simple about the human eye? Or any lens eye? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
There needs to be a method for the light to enter, sensors to collect light, the information needs to be sent and interpreted, then the organism makes a decision based on that info. Natural selection requires a benefit so it needs to happen all at once, but over millions of years because evolution.
@@ClaytonFTW yet more ignorance
@@riggs234 Complexity is not a sign of design? I can't agree with that.
CanadianGoose
It’s not just complex.
It’s specified complexity.
Specified complexity is a sign of design.
Is your position really that nothing that is complex requires intelligence? Because that is obviously false.
200 people go down in a plane crash. One child survives! A miracle! God saved that child! And killed 199 others!