Bessel van der Kolk on MDMA assisted therapy for PTSD: More profound than anything we have done
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- čas přidán 11. 09. 2021
- MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD trials have shown great promise, even for severe and complex trauma. In this video, world leading trauma researcher Bessel van der Kolk shares his personal experiences as the principal investigator at the Boston site. He also shares his deeply personal experiences receiving MDMA-assisted therapy as part of his own training.
The podcast hosts at Psykologvirke, a mental health clinic in Oslo, Norway, are also involved in this cutting edge research. They share personal notes from the same training, touch on possibilities and pitfalls with MDMA-assisted therapy both at an individual and societal level, but first and foremost they concentrate on the data coming out of the MDMA-asssisted psychotherapy trials.
As a leading figure in the field, it is especially intriguing to get Bessel van der Kolks perspectives on these data. As he explains in the interview, we know how to treat trauma with other methods. The challenge seems to be the secondary effects of interpersonal trauma. Like how you have come to think and feel about yourself, others and the world. How do you get in touch with yourself, and the sense of being a worthwhile human being?
Not to spoil to much, but Bessel clearly ses great potential for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD. He sees transformations that he has not seen with any other treatment modality.
The field of MDMA-assisted therapy has moved from stigma to cutting edge in the last few years, but is still somewhat controversial. It is our hope that when someone like Bessel van der Kolk speaks highly about this treatment, more people will listen carefully and educate themselves.
This is the best antidote to prejudice, that still seems to be slowing the process of science down. Please share this video, and the written transcript of it widely:
psykologvirke.no/fagstoff/mdm...
If you are interested in getting training in MDMA-assisted therapy, please check out psykologvirke.no/kurs/ - Věda a technologie
I’m undertaking my fourth MDMA therapy journey this week, underground in Seattle. I am so fortunate to have this at my disposal with a trusted therapist, it’s impacted my cPTSD in a positive way that 20 years of therapy couldn’t touch. It’s an amazing medicine!
That’s so good. How are you doing now?
Thank you all for such nice feedback! It was a pleasure to do this interview with Bessel. I hope everyone will share this piece widely in their networks!
As you noted touching others and their families in a way that allows them to experience healing is priceless.
Thank you for touching others. ❤️
t h a n k YOU ! so important to have this info out.
I suffered many serious traumas in my past, and used mdma recreationally, which I believe healed me
His concern about its misuse and hijack by pharmaceutical companies is well justified. This drug needs to be administered very carefully. They should do trials on severely traumatised populations. He recently spoke at the Collective Trauma Summit hosted by Thomas Hübl. I wonder what potential MDMA has in helping broken societies heal collectively, beginning with individual healing of course.
Yes, thank you for this comment. We agree!
Thank you AMir. I heard Thomas Hubl speak at the wisdom of trauma conference-beautiful. Wondering did you ‘attend’ the trauma summit? How or who do you follow to be informed of these ‘summits’?
Thank you
It's in phase three trials now in the U.S. with an approx. 65% success rate in removing a PTSD diagnosis entirely in very severe cases (previously deployed veterans, first responders, etc.)
My brother passed away June 16 of last year this drug is helping me as I type heal . I can feel his energy . It's beautiful but sad . We were like best friends he was to young to die. I would gladly take his place . This is a miracle drug I'm at peace right now . It should be legal
Seriously need this for two of my adult children. They have major TRAUMA and it effects their daily lives.
Having been a “Raver” in the early 90s I KNOW the beautiful benefits. It’s a fantasy way to open and clear the brain with nothing but love and beauty and interestingly huge amounts of compassion and understanding for another person.
Thank you for commenting. We wish all the best for you and your children.
I’ve done it about 10 times over a thirty year period. The first time was just for fun. I did it with a longtime friend and we had a blast. We had really deep conversations and it😂was all about love. It really was a beautiful experience. I immediately saw how it could used in a positive way. Since that first time, each time I’ve done it have been times when big changes were going on in life that I felt I wasn’t ready for and in some weird way it seemed to give me a different perspective and be able to unpack my fears, thereby, allowing myself to be myself again. By that I mean that I was reminded of who I am, what I stand for, and where I go from here. I’ve never done it in a party/club environment and, quite frankly, I have ALWAYS felt that was a complete waste.
"I was reminded of who I am, what I stand for, and where I go from here" - So beautiful! Thanks for sharing your experience
I am a clinical psychologist and specialize in treating trauma. I appreciate your thought provoking conversations. Thanks for spurting them “out there” for all to access. I am hopeful about MDMA and other psychedelic assisted therapies and the conversation about how to bring them from clinical trail into healing spaces in western societies is VERY important IMO. Set and setting…they are both deeply important somehow. As someone living in the context of American capitalism I share Van der Kolk’s concern about how the momentum of American capitalism may pose conflicts interests to those of us who are most excited and wanting to provide healing and trust the process. American Capitalism’s value system seems to be moving us more and more toward money/power as the only value, and achieving it by any man’s necessary. This is my gut intuition about the growing foundation of American capitalism and government. It seems the interviewers perspectives are different and reflect their country’s values, which is why these conversations are so important to have across cultures. It leads me to wonder MDMA’s role in integrating and balancing the tensions between love and power
Thank you for your appreciation for our work and your thoughtful comments!
as a human with cPTSD, this brings me to tears.
Thank you for sharing.
check out the MDMA therapy forum on reddit.
@@MegaLeoben I will though I have already researched this for years No wonder I loved it the few times I had it in my 20's!
@@jennykastelic3253 its a good community over there.
👆👆 for help, products (MDMA available) and directives on use
What symptoms do you have? Are you on any meds
Hopefully this form of Therapy will become more available for more people.
It is inhumane to prevent people from having access to this, when our society in general is suffering from trauma on such a large scale...
I had the worst, most traumatic experience of my life during MDMA assisted therapy with a highly trained professional. A new and indescribable level of hell opened up to me that day. It was like six hours of being tortured and eaten alive by wild demons. This was three months ago. I have been having panic attacks and struggling with despair and an almost ever-present fear of losing my mind ever since (symptoms that I did NOT have before). If there are others out there like me, I would like to find them for support. I am still struggling every day to recover from this experience, and I often feel hopeless that I will ever be able to heal from it. I wish I could tell Bessel van der Kolk about my experience. People need to know about the risks.
Were you a study participant? Have you improved? I have read about bad experiences with ketamine which is already legal. Sounds like around 25% which is too risky for me so I was waiting for the FDA to approve the MDMA. 😩
@@erindefreitas9826 After my nightmare MDMA experience, it took about 4 months of constant, debilitating depression, fatigue, and frequent horrific panic attacks before I started to improve. This drug completely shattered my reality and REALLY messed me up. I'm still not fully recovered; I still have PTSD issues related to this experience which affect my daily life. I will never do MDMA again, ever. Not worth the risk. I hope you can find a safe treatment that works for you.
And no, I was not a study participant. But I worked with a highly trained therapist.
@@dentellierwhat do you think caused the bad experience. Was it a reaction to MDMA or something the therapist did?
@@wulfsorenson8859 Definitely my reaction to the MDMA
Having extreme PTSD, and knowing many others do, whose lives are at a
Stop due the disabling symptoms, knowing there is this potential amazing treatment and not having easy access or access at all is a horrible tease.
What symptoms do you have?
This was so interesting. I also enjoyed your discussion after Your talk with Dr. Van Der Kolk. I just started his book, and would love to hear you continue a conversation on this work. Thank you so much.
I look forward to reading his book "body keeps the score". Loved the podcast. Thanks much!
Thank you so much for your nice feedback! Please spread it in your network. The book is great Have a good read!
it is an amazing book.
that book brings so much clarity you will probably see things differently after :)
A wonderful conversation. Thank you.
Thanks a lot for showing us your appreciation! It is much appreciated!
It's great that he also advocates EMDR, IFS and Brainspotting Therapy!
yes, indeed. Lots of good stuff right there!
This was a wonderful podcast and very informative..would love to see another one with Bessel now after a year has passed.....he is such a humble person and I appreciate both of you sharing. It is sad that "Western" society has such a stigma regarding these medicines. If the governments hadn't been so scared, and controlling and had taken an "honest" look at the research that was done, 40-odd years ago where we would be today as a society. Very sad as it could have helped so many. Lots of wise words regarding so many venues. Thank you.
Excellent ! thank you !!!!
Thank you for your kind feedback, it is much appreciated. Please share this in your network!
Wonderful discussion. So important. Many thanks.
thanks a lot! Your feedback is much appreciated. Please share this widely!
Loved this conversation with you and van der Kolk! Thanks for lifting the very interesting progress that is happening around MDMA assisted therapy, but for also shedding light on the possible risks when not used in the forum or under safe circumstances.
Anna, thank you so much for your appreciation and feedback. Thank you also for mentioning risks. MDMA-assisted therapy is not a quick fix and the therapeutic result is a combination of the synergies between pharmacological and psychotherapeutic intervention. The most important thing is probably the individuals trust in their bodys capacity for self healing and willingness to do the inner work over time. MDMA-assisted therapy kan really help with this.
@@psykologvirke4208 thank you for your comprehensive approach to healing.
Awesome, thanks.
thank you for this feedback. It is encouraging. Please share this widely!
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:00 🧠 Bessel van der Kolk's Introduction to MDMA-Assisted Therapy
- Bessel van der Kolk discusses his interest in various treatment methods for trauma, including MDMA therapy.
- He highlights the transformative potential of MDMA therapy and its profound impact.
02:30 🌱 Origins and Involvement in MDMA Research
- Bessel explains how he got involved in MDMA research and its history dating back 15 years.
- He shares his initial concerns about the legality of using psychedelics for PTSD treatment.
05:32 🤔 Challenges and Concerns
- Bessel discusses the potential societal challenges of adopting MDMA therapy, including its impact on work ethic and cultural values.
- He expresses concerns about how the world will accept and integrate the therapy's transformative effects.
09:10 💔 Self-Compassion and Healing
- Bessel explores the profound effects of MDMA therapy on self-compassion, allowing individuals to confront and heal from their trauma.
- He emphasizes that MDMA therapy is not just a treatment for PTSD but a deeper exploration of one's self.
11:54 🧘♀️ Mind Treatment and Post-Traumatic Growth
- Bessel challenges the term "post-traumatic growth" and suggests that trauma survivors acquire unique knowledge and coping mechanisms.
- He reframes the therapist's role as a guide, helping individuals in their healing journey.
17:50 🌌 Personal Experiences with MDMA
- Bessel shares his personal experience with MDMA therapy, including confronting the pain and trauma accumulated during his career.
- He reflects on the transformative power of MDMA and its impact on his perception of pain and healing.
20:25 🌍 Shared Humanity and Training for Therapists
- Both Bessel and the interviewer discuss the profound impact of MDMA therapy on recognizing shared human experiences.
- They advocate for therapist training with MDMA to enhance their understanding of trauma and psychology.
23:46 🌐 Future of MDMA Therapy
- Bessel and the interviewer discuss the potential challenges of managing the widespread adoption of MDMA therapy.
- They express the need for responsible use and continued exploration of the therapy's capabilities.
26:06 🧘♀️ Bessel van der Kolk's vision of accessible sacred experiences
- Bessel van der Kolk envisions creating accessible places for sacred experiences and retreats for self-discovery.
- Advocates for the need to provide context and opportunities for personal growth beyond financial constraints.
27:05 📊 Results of MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD
- Two-thirds of participants in MDMA-assisted therapy trials no longer had a PTSD diagnosis.
- Emphasis on the importance of measuring resolution of trauma beyond traditional PTSD scores.
- Secondary data analysis highlights the significant impact of self-compassion and self-acceptance.
30:08 💡 Exploring alexithymia and trauma
- Alexithymia, the inability to identify and express emotions, is linked to childhood neglect and abuse.
- The significance of caregivers helping individuals identify and communicate their feelings.
- The potential of MDMA therapy to enhance emotional awareness and expression.
32:13 👥 Sense of self and improved relationships
- MDMA therapy often leads to a strengthened sense of self, emotional self-sufficiency, and personal boundaries.
- Improved interpersonal relationships with reduced judgment, projection, and defensiveness.
- Encouraging examples of individuals calmly negotiating relationships and needs.
34:20 🏞️ Inner healing intelligence and bodily experiences
- MDMA therapy involves guiding the inner healing process, similar to being a "guide" in mountain climbing.
- The concept of inner healing intelligence manifesting as bodily experiences.
- The importance of recognizing the body's role in healing and exploring potential improvements in body-focused therapy.
38:23 💰 Concerns about capitalism and profit-driven practices
- Worries about the potential for profit-driven practices to overshadow the therapeutic value of MDMA therapy.
- The need to maintain careful standards and training to ensure safe and effective treatment.
- The importance of balancing accessibility and affordability with maintaining therapeutic integrity.
43:09 🌍 MDMA's potential impact on community and culture
- Reflecting on how the psychedelic research movement can promote compassion and humanism.
- Considering the role of psychedelics in mitigating social isolation and fostering community bonds.
- Challenges in integrating research findings into policy and the importance of policymakers experiencing the treatment themselves.
48:05 🚦 Moving cautiously in the legalization process
- Emphasizing the need for careful, step-by-step legalization of MDMA therapy.
- Concerns about the risks of hasty implementation and the potential for adverse effects.
- The balance between maintaining safety and ensuring broader accessibility to treatment.
50:43 🤝 Collaborative efforts for the future of therapy
- Acknowledgment of the importance of collaboration between researchers, policymakers, and therapists.
- The potential of personal experiences with MDMA therapy to inform and shape policy decisions.
- The challenge of shifting cultural attitudes and increasing access to trauma treatment.
52:29 📊 The significance of MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD
- MDMA-assisted therapy shows promise for treating severe and complex trauma.
- Clinical impressions and research data support its effectiveness.
- Non-profit funding and methodological rigor add credibility to the research.
55:32 🤔 Implications of self-compassion and alexithymia in MDMA therapy
- Self-compassion and alexithymia are significant factors in psychological well-being.
- MDMA therapy may have a positive impact on these constructs.
- The potential for broader applications beyond PTSD treatment is promising.
57:11 🌐 Societal implications of MDMA therapy
- Bessel van der Kolk discusses potential societal shifts due to MDMA therapy.
- Concerns about altering values and perceptions, particularly related to capitalism.
- The need to balance clinical focus with awareness of societal implications.
01:01:51 💼 Personal experiences and work-life balance in MDMA therapy
- Personal experiences of decreased preoccupation with work and increased focus on love.
- The potential for individuals to invest energy in healthier directions.
- The idea that capitalism is unlikely to be severely impacted by these shifts.
Thanks a lot for this! Great!
It’s about time we had something that actually works. I never felt so good in my teens in the 90’s 😂🎉
This is excellent. Thank you for this! I'm a fan of his work on trauma. Looking forward to where his current research takes us. Wonder how long it will take for MDMA and other psychedelic based interventions to become mainstream
hi, yes - at least approval as a medicine is expected in the US in two years and Europe in 4 years! It will go mainstream very fast once they are approved medicines, I think!
Don't wait for that... Once they become mainstream, the system will exploit them for profiteering. Which is what they always do. Find a medicine circle with a trained facilitator/shaman. It will change your life. 🙏🏼💗🙏🏼
@@psykologvirke4208 that's such good news that it could be legal in... 2025 in Europe! THANK YOU for this wonderful interview and bringing more light to level 3 studies and where this is going. Bessel's testimonial is astounding. very grateful for your work. i work with a lot of trauma clients and the thought of offering this possibility is pretty relieving and a happy prospect.
Why Therapists need to be treated too, since they carry all the trauma from their patients, that is a lot of pain they were exposed to, and they need to take care of themselves too, it has an effect ...
What for anxiety which is there for the whole day. I am gettingn Spravato for my TRD.
Is psilocibine and mdma recommended if you have a broke self? Is it recommendable to beeak the self, before you even fix it together?
MDMA assisted psychotherapy is used at the moment mostly for Trauma Treatment (CPTSD & PTSD). It might also be used in couples therapy.
@@dellwright1407 does it help with CPTSD in childhood? Meaning, for very abstract things. Repeated events?
@@sergiorrwodz CPTSD meaning complex PTSD as well as PTSD. So yes could be ongoing abuse or other trauma situation in childhood that would be trauma treated with MDMA assisted psychotherapy. As well as say PTSD from a bad experience for a soldier in wartime. There is a documentary film you can see online called "From Shock to Awe". Its mostly about Ayahuasca therapy for War Veterans PTSD but also there is a side note about MDMA therapy. Also on youtube a short film produced 7 years ago called "MDMA Therapy and Healing" posted on 15th Feb 2015... definitely worth watching. As you can see from the Bessel video above he says MDMA is creates a sense of 'whole self' (rather than broken self). Good luck with your healing journey!
What is the dosage for someone with bipolar disorder? I do t go shreaking high just rarely hypo how would it effect me. I have been through bad traumas and cant live want to die
Hi, unfortunately, no studies have been carried out on people with bipolar disorder, so it is hard to say. All the best to you
💛💛💛
mdma retreats under professional surveillance sounds like a great idea.
Groof had some very insightful groups with LSD, but like with so many other 'drugs' he had to stop it because of political decisions.
After such a retreat it would be much easier to gain insight through 'spiritual' traditions. It actually takes a well integrated 'I' to start doing non-dual investigations.
"She saw that all phenomena arose, abided and fell away,
She saw that even knowing this arose, abided and fell away.
Then she knew
There was nothing more than this
No ground
Nothing to lean on stronger than the cane she held
Nothing to lean upon at all
And no one leaning.
And she opened the clenched fist in her mind and let go
And fell into the midst of everything"
-From the story of Teijitsu Abbess of HakuJuan (Japan)
Beautiful, thanks a lot!
I already had 3 sessions.
Can you report on the results of your therapy with MDMA + three sessions?
@@Ephilates2024 I've had about 5 sessions now. But I have a lot of dissociation as a result of complex trauma. it is difficult for me to access a lot of repressed emotions so I havent made a lot of progress, but i have improved in other ways, such as my relationships with other people. I will do more sessions.
@@MegaLeoben When you say five sessions, do you mean five sessions with MDMA? I'm happy to hear that you are making progress in some areas of your life. Relationships count for a lot! It sounds like a promising start. Thank you for your reply.
@@Ephilates2024 sure. Yea 5 with mdma and the last one had psilocybin with mdma.
@@MegaLeoben thank you
I did ketamine treatment !! But this looks more hopeful
👏 😮 👏 😮
3:50 5:00 6:00 6:15
Wouldn't touch it, Bessel. My SSRI works fine.
Never change a winning team!
It seems to me that the PTSD cannot be cured
There are several evidence based methods that works well for many, like prolonged exposure therapy, cognitive processing therapy, EMDR and trauma focused cognitive behavioral therapy. No method works for everyone thats why we need to develop more of them and clients must not give up!
Aw it may seem that way sometimes but there are so many ways to heal and grow, its just that everyone is so individual and different they may require something very specific. In my opinion you have to be very conscious about it in a way that requires a lot of effort and growing pains, it’s definitely not easy but it can be done
@@04Serena I am sorry to hear this. My experience is that the healing process starts when the individual starts trusting her own innate capacity for healing. Your body knows exactly how to deal with trauma in the best possible way. The problem is that we tend to overcontrol natural responses from the body, since they are overwhelming at first. When we learn how to build tolerance for the inner states, trusting them to wanting us well, starting to get to know our different parts, healing begins. Do not give up hope. I do not mean to minimize your suffering in any way. Healing is not easy and often we need help from someone. The psyche is extremely protecting of its own wounds. Its challenging. But it is possible. I wish you all the best and will continue to work together with MAPS to make this treatment availible to everyone. It might take a few more years. But it will happen.
At 1 euro a box with 30 tablets of 60 mgs., a long time ago, that should be on sale.
Fed up with the psychotherapeutic considerations of eminences of psychology and psychiatry.
It's much milder for brain health than caffeine and just as inaccessible to most people as Russian caviar.
@@adams9871 Tell me