HMS Illustrious and Operation Excess - Fliegerkorps X marks the spot
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- čas přidán 20. 10. 2020
- Today we have a special guest to talk about the bombing of HMS Illustrious during Operation Excess, a major convoy operation in the Mediterranean Theatre.
Visit his website at: www.armouredcarriers.com
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Pinned post for Q&A :)
Fulmar = Battle = Rubbish, where were the spits, hurris, Defiants, Beaufighter, anything!
In today's modern military climate, do you ever see a revival in battleships?
Drac, could or have Naval Torpedo bombers ever been used to bomb docks/buildings directly?
I red that Germany had to hand over the Helgoland and the Nassau classes as a compensation for the scuttled ships. Could Germany have kept those old dreadnoughts if the other ships were not scuttled ?
Did the washington naval treaty prevent its members from selling or giving capital ships to smaller nations who did not sign the treaty ?
"I got shot by my daughter again"
*alien screeches in the background*
Aren't all women and children aliens, really?
@@dropdead234 Shhh! Never let them know you're onto their secret.
that's some aussie laughter - do not mess with down underians
Kinda funny I read this exact when it happened
I have recently become friends with a lovely lady aged 89.
Today I popped round for a coffee and a chat.
It turns out her husband was Admiral Lister from the HMS Illustrious in during the Malta conflict. She is an amazing lady with the most incredible stories.
I was never interested in history at school but listening to someone who lived through it is enthralling.
It strikes me that those Maltese Dockyard Workers are a fantastic example of why the population of the entire Island was awarded the first ever George Cross. They are not the only example of what is in my mind, the Maltese peoples finest hour (though as a Brit I may be a bit biased here), but still a good one. They are, if memory serves me, the only nation in the world to dislay a Medal for Valour as part of their National Flag. And it was richly deserved.
Agreed, Malta was the most heavily bombed area in the whole of WW2 and genuinely near staved into submission too. Definitively deserved the GC.
Guessing you know the history of
Operation Pedestal and the British crew on the SS Ohio, but to any that do not its definitely worth searching for info on it or watching the old film about it.
Its a tradgedy that the dock workers at that time, were unaware, that exposure to the smallest amount of Asbestos, imaginable, would kill them , 30/40 years later. Mesothelioma. It killed my brother.
@@alexanderlawson1649 A 1969 law case that exposed asbestos as a health risk forced a 1970 voluntary agreement in to ban the stuff. Blue Asbestos became a scapegoat but was was really just 3% of the total. Azzy was not fully stopped until the Health and Safety at Work Act of 1974. It was not completely prohibited until 1999.
bainbridgeelearning.co.uk/asbestos-law/
The Maltese people in general went through absolute hell while under siege
@@davidelliott5843 when I was a kid in the 60's, my dad would let me help maintain the brakes on our cars. He would let me blow the dust out of the drums and shoes. He warned me then to stay upwind because the asbestos dust is dangerous. I listened. Point is he knew, the US Army was known well before 1970
55:47 "Sir, we've been hit by a Mk. 14 Nerf torpedo!"
Admiral Drach: "A _Mk. 14_ you say?(chuckles) Maintain course and speed."
Plot twist. This is a late production one that actually works.
@@spartanalex9006 Drach: ...but it's 1942 right now?
_wait_
FUNNY, very FUNNY!!
My dad was on the HMS Ark Royal as an AA gunner during WWII. I am proud of him and I miss him.
@naruto tricked me sry old probably
@naruto tricked me sry well do the maths 80+
@@Benepene there’s no way OP is 80+
@@dinkelheit88 Why not ? 80yo use ytube too.
@@murderouskitten2577 i find that incredibly hard to believe
My dad served on Illustrious during this period. I never realised what he went through because he would never talk about it. Thanks for this video.
My Dad was on H.M.S. Illustrious too at the time of the bombings. He did talk about it for a while when I was growing up. I later visited the naval museum in Valetta and there is a section dedicated to H.M.S. Illustrious.
Lusty certainly attracted plenty of unwanted attraction throughout the war and she did her nation proud. Can't wait for more collaborations with the gentleman from armouredcarriers, he is extremely well spoken (no bias as a fellow Australian honest) and his expertise covers a topic which deserves so much more recognition.
I would love to see a video with a deep dive in how the dock workers were able to repair ships that were blown up so badly. How they managed to bend things back into shape, figure out where all the wires and pipes were supposed to go, and so on. That work must have been insane, and having to do it so quickly, etc.
Third!
Fourth!! (what the hell!)
Fifth
Illustrious repairs would be fascinating. I’d also love to see and hear more details about repairs to Seydlitz in WWI
Yorktown? Actually, Roskill says much of Warspite's Jutland damage wasn't finally repaired till her reconstruction - and even then the decks were uneven,
"so we have a hits on illustrious what's happening to it now?"
"it's foken foked m8"
"Sink the Illustrious"
Illustrious: *[Laughs in armored deck]*
Parry this Flieger Corps X. You cant sink me If you cant actually Penetrate my armor.
Illustrious: "You dare try and sink me, sink me? You sir shall rue this day!"
"You dare oppose me, mortals?" - HMS Illustrious, probably.
Ave Imperator
I can't be sunk! I'm Illustrious! (In German) You're looney, we have 1000 KG bombs. "British Carriers Always Triumph!"
59:35 holy crap, that picture looks like it was took yesterday, that's just simply incredible.... Who ever coloured that needs a medal
Indeed, I'd love to find it online.
@@jlvfr looks like it's by irootkoo jr (something like that), his colorizations are all over Reddit's /r/warshipporn. I'd start there
@@RobJaskula thanks I will
Film is a amazing material
I feel like I should have actual rum on hand for these episodes.
I have Jack and Coke on hand for the episodes
I’d recommend skipping sodomy and the lash unless you’re REALLY old school RN...
I do - cant be the only one...
This is Trafalgar Day so I'll be having a commemorative tot later. Perhaps I'll save this video for then.
You mean you don't? 😳
Best damage report ever given by a British carrier...
"What hurricane?"
When do they that?
@@DaleBryand One of the Pacific typhoons that Halsey was stupid enough to sail his fleet through did a real number on several of the 3rd Fleet's carriers (and sunk two or three destroyers), Halsey asked the British to report their damage from the hurricane, and the reply was "What hurricane?"
@@TheSchultinator lol noice
While the American carriers are superior strike carriers I've always been impressed with the British armored carriers as defensive and ASW platforms.
@@TheSchultinator Halsey did have his moments of questionable judgement, didn't he?
("Where is force Z? The world would like to know.")
Great collaboration video, Drach. As someone living on the other side of the pond, it’s good to hear accounts about engagements that we don’t normally hear a lot about. This is just one of the reasons that your channel is such a valuable resource.
My Uncle Fred was on Illustrious during this action, he would often show his photo of the ships bell, he also remarked frequently on the inferno that happened.
My grandad CPO James Smyth was a casualty of the assault on the 10th of January, he sadly died 2 days later from his injuries and was buried at sea..RIP grandad.
@@microsteadinguk ;
67 year old Yank here.
Sad that his life was cut short.
I can not look at photos of the crews of the RN ships that engaged in combat without wondering how many did not survive, and how I would have acted in their situation.
I do firmly believe, they sacrificed their lives fighting a truly just war, and our modern world, in spite of our present political trends, is in their debt.
"Hans, the English have put armor on their carriers flight decks, what do we do ??"
"Its easy Karl, we get bigger bombs and more of them."
Btw thank you Drach for keeping the volumes on your videos loud.
It's much appreciated.
as long as its consistent....
some of his videos the guests have been VERY quite..... while he is loud
.
i also like to fall asleep to longer videos like this.... and i hate when i leave autoplay on.... and the next video is either too quite or WAY too loud
Without those steel decking on the flight deck and the additional steel in her hanger bay she would have sunk. Certainly an American carrier would have as we did not armor our carriers like the UK. I went to sea on an LPH and CV as a surface warfare officer in the 70's and 80's and what this ship endured amazed me. Just WOW. Bravo Zulu to all the UK sailors and flyers. The sheer bravery of these sailors awes me. Just glad you guys are on our side.
Worth a read of Charles Lamb’s ‘War in a Stringbag’ he was in close in anti submarine patrol at the time of the attack and was shot down by the Stuka’s forward facing guns. His book includes a lot of the accounts of crew members.
Learning the Germans hit Illustrious with 1 metric ton bomb from the damage reports probably shaved off a good 3 to 5 years off of Admiral Cunningham.
As an American I have a very skewed viewed of how WWII played out so thank you very much Drach, for bringing things like this to my attention.
On a side note, is this the first *bleep* on the channel?
first ive heard
Its ok. All americans have a verrrry skewed view of both world wars.
I heard that and thought well they probably just put down lb out of habit.
Then I did a quick conversion in my head and realised it was 2200lb. That's a much more significant issue than my original thought....
@@Sim.Crawford took me a minute for l to process that 1 metric ton is 2204 lbs too. Even if it behaved more like an AP shell compared to a general purpose bomb, a metric ton...
@@sugarnads It kinda sucks but also learning about these things are eye-opening to say the least.
Thank you HMS Illustrious for the lessons for both the English, and the Americans.
My father was on the illustrious at that time and finished at the end of the war in Sydney, married mum and had a life with machine gun wounds, nightmares reliving events including kamakaze atacks in pacific where he was blown through a hatchway and his mate in front of him being blown apart..Sidney Robert Lloyd, born in middlesex england 3rd dec 1925 passed away in 1991. He did not like discussing the war but did say he was the guy with the paddles that guided the landings...eqivalant rank of an army sergeant. Boson or chief boson...i dont know navy rank.he served Atlantic, Malta and russian convoys as well as pacific.
Haven't seen all of this yet but just spotted him at 21.02
I have a video addressing the kamikaze attack on HMS Illustrious on my channel, if you wish to have a look.
This year in early August I visited Malta and both its war museums (Malta at War in Birgu & National War Museum at Fort St Elmo) and honestly speaking those were the best musuems I ever visited in my life so far. They are very interactive, have insane amount of items on display, use footage (with audio as well) of attacks from the attacks as they happened and are quite large, for a history nut you can easily spend around 2 hours at each museum. The Maltese do pay a lot of respect to RN during ww2 in the displays, especially HMS Illustrious to which they have dedicated a whole room for. I highly recommend visiting them at least once in your life.
The Maltese deserve as much respect as any British serviceman during WW2.
If it was not for outside pressure , Britain would of accepted them into the union.
I think the vote was overwhelming in support of joining with the UK.
But the US forced the UKs hand and told us to not accept it.
Its interesting to think if outside pressure did not interfere and Malta joined the union.
Malta would of been added to the union as a part of the United kingdom. So it would of been the United kingdom of England, Wales, Scotland, N.Ireland and Malta
Armored Carriers is an excellent channel. The series on the attacks on the Indonesian oilfields is great.
Great attention to detail and a lot of research! Well done guys! As an ex-volunteer fireman I know that fires on ships are among the most difficult to put out. The heat is almost unbearable. And of course this is war and incomparable to peace time. Was deeply moved by the image of the collapsing firefighter at 43... him and his mates working without breathing apparatus. Many thanks for posting and for your attention to engineering!
Commander of Fliegerkorps X at that time was General der Flieger Hans Geisler who was a former officer in the Kaiserliche Marine and Reichsmarine. It explain in part why Fliegerkorps X was that good in anti-shipping operations.
He deserves acclaim just for sticking around through all that and not ending on the wrong side of politics! Can't have been easy. Though probably not Russia degree of difficulty.
Fliegerkorps X was intended for the German aircraft carrier - their aircraft were specifically modified for shipping strikes.
me googling "HMS Illustrious" for spoilers
You miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight get two different search results.....
A soft landing.
You'd get an armored carrier and a carrier that was too late to participate in the Falklands War
Illustrious...hell of a carrier..
*Illustrious in Azur Lane*
Yupp...HELL of a chest..I mean carrier
Indeed. If she were to bend over to get a dropped napkin, she'd lose balance and fall.
I dunno buuuuut...
Was that an offence?
Was wondering if someone had already said this.
you are correct on both accounts. Been playing the game for two years plus
@@Cbabilon675 What's your exercise fleet look like?
Thank you for this. I wish my father was alive to have seen it. His father CPO James Smyth was a casualty of the bombing on the 10th of January, he sadly died of his injuries 2 days later and was buried at sea. RIP grandad and to all the other hero's!
I am so sorry for your family's loss. Your Grandfather and his pom-pom teammates, looked into the devil's face and didn't flinch. I had read about the attack on the Illustrious before, and this level of detail was truly eyeopening. The anti-personal attack was a new level of horror to add to the horrors of war.
Was kinda hoping for a "Battle of Trafalgar" special on it's 215th anniversary.
Well I guess that's for another time and also the research prob. needs more time^^
At least he could have done HMS Nelson (unless he did already).
@@mayuri4184 he did i think a good while back
I'm still waiting for the Portsmouth Historic Dockyard to get back to me :(
I am very happy for a new Drach video, but I am like a kid on Christmas morning waiting for part 3 of the Admiral Nelson series lol :)
@@Drachinifel looking really forward to it but take your time to get all the necessary informations^^
Now that I think about it, I think the mistake the Germans made was that they did too good of a job. By distracting the fighters, and then taking out all the AA gunners, it meant they were probably all able to run textbook perfect bombing runs. And they were probably all trained to aim at some specific part of the ship to line up their attack, and I am sure that as an elite unit, part of their pride was based around being able to make precision perfect attacks. The end result being that they all dropped their bombs down the exact same hole in the ship. Yeah you'd have thought that having five or six bombs hit the same spot would have just battered the ship apart, so some luck is at play for sure, but I suspect if the attackers had not been *so* good at their jobs, they might have scattered some more bombs around and spread the fires and damage out further than they could take care of.
Plus I imagine that after the third or fourth bomb hit the same place, there were already so many holes and bent panels and so on that the actual additional damage of each subsequent hit might have been reduced because the force of the explosion would have had a lot more places to go and diffuse away. Making new holes would have been a lot worse than just stretching out holes that they'd already made.
That's possible, but the more likely explanation is Fliegerkorps X was missing the essential ingredient required to take out heavily-armored warships--torpedo bombers, or at least successful torpedo attacks that hypothetically could have struck Illustrious after the Strukas.
Courageous, Ark Royal, Eagle, Royal Oak, Barham, Repulse and Prince of Wales all were done in by German or Japanese torpedoes...exclusively. There was a reason all carrier navies in the Second World War insisted on operating both types of attack aircraft, as the loss of Lexington, Yorktown, Wasp and Hornet had one essential ingredient--aerial, surface and submarine-launched Type 91, 93 and 95 torpedoes. Without torpedo hits, you get Illustrious, Formidable, Enterprise, Franklin and Bunker Hill...or Task Force 37/57 of the BCF.
Other than HMS Hermes and USS Princeton, no Allied fast carrier was sunk by bombing alone during the war. The former apparently took enough D3A hits to destroy a small island, and the latter was scuttled due to a uncontained hanger fire that might have been survivable if she had been a keep-up Yorktown or Essex-class carrier.
Another reason they hit the stern so many times might be because they practiced on the outline of the carrier formed by buoys. The ship was steaming along at 25 kts so their bombs tended to hit farther aft than in practice.
I envision that force 10 was an elite among elite. With the AA down, it became an exersize of picking WHERE to drop your bomb. After all: they hit the forward mounts, and them the Elevator many times. Certainly some bombs missed entirely but these were Germans and they had Accuracy to prove.
But the Elevator was armoured, and the deck under it was part of the steel box containing the flight deck. Because the British EXPECTED Their carriers to absorb a lot of damage, and intended them to survive.
Frankly, Illustrious got unlucky, and lucky. She baited all this damage into a damage absorbant box of their hull, akin to the purpose of the Torpedo bulges, it just swallowed most of the damage and carried on.
If the Germans had aimed somewhat for the superstructure, and that forward elevator, or amidships to crack her hull, things might have been different. They didn't, Illustrious continued to serve.
@@indplt1595 yup. 500-1,000 lbs of warhead under the waterline, especially under the keel, is just way more effective than the same blowing amidst the decks. Air dropped bombs were mostly to take a carrier out of commission- stop it deploying fighters and it's AAA firing. The torp was always the killshot though ;)
@@Sophocles13 Well, that and fire and Tallboys and magazine detonations. The Japanese lost Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu and Soryu to uncontrollable fires leading the Kido Butai's escorts to scuttle them, and the fires started by TF 16's SBDs did the same to Mikuma in the same battle. This likely was a known weakness to U.S. intelligence, as Shattered Sword claims the USN Dauntlesses were dropping GP (general purpose) bombs on Nagumo's carriers. It is almost inconceivable Fletcher's and Spruance's pilots would have been permitted to forego using armor-piercing weaponry unless they knew how vulnerable IJN carriers and cruisers were to turning into bonfires.
Rhujo's sinking two and a half months later did involve a single Mark 13 hit, but the pounding by Dauntlesses was probably enough to do her in. Only Shoho suffered a number of torpedo hits before going down in 1942, demonstrating that dive bombers (particularly the Dauntless) were far deadlier that year than the B5N and TBD (the Avenger gets a pass, partly because of the 260-knot/800 ft attack profile developed in late 1943 was so deadly, but also for taking out Hiei that November).
This was even more on display two years after Midway, where the torpedoes that took out Hiyo and Taiho were nowhere near enough to take out the Japanese carriers in the the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot--the uncontrollable fires sank both without scuttling, and the same fate nearly befell Zuikaku that June. Her sister Shokaku wasn't so lucky, but Cavalla's three torpedoes might not have been enough to take out Shokaku alone. The fires ignited, however, resulted in the IJN carrier taking more men to the bottom of the Philippine Sea than Arizona's KIA.
USS Arizona herself was instructive, as B5Ns dropping converted Nagato-class main battery shells took out BB-39, not Type 91 aerial torpedoes that their fellow "Kates" used against the rest of Battleship Row. Gnesinau was similarly done in by RAF bombs alone detinating the German battleship's magazines, and of course Tirpitz, Scheer and Lutzow were victims of Barnes Wallis' and 617 Squadron's earthquakes. Then there was KG 100 with Fritz X, which demonstrated that even a 1570 kg/3460 lb weapon isn't enough to take out Warspite with a 320 kg/710 lbs detonation under the hull; it takes a magazine hit like Roma to destroy a Littorio-class battleship.
But barring these conditions, yes, torpedoes were key to sinking Allied capital ships. Arizona and Hood were the only Allied capital ships to be destroyed without G7 or Type 91/93/95 torpedoes striking their sides...after all Hermes, Langley and Princeton were not really capital ships and instead were practically expendable (though even if Bunker Hill or Franklin had not survived the impact on the Allied war effort would have been zero in 1945).
The impact of shipboard fires should never have been discounted, as the USN learned to their chagrin in 1966, 1967 and 1969 aboard USS Oriskany, USS Forrestal, and USS Enterprise (CVN-65). Nevertheless, the effect of Illustrious-class armoured decks lived on long after the Second World War, as the armored flight decks on the supercarriers are credited with saving Forrestal and Enterprise...
Sir we've been hit in the stern, sir another hit to stern, sir another hit to the stern, sir they've hit the stern again. That must have gotten real tiring to hear for the captain.
As tiring as hearing Private Baldrik's poem: "Boom, boom, boom, boom ..."
If one of the runners is delayed with damage control, they could. E overtaken by a different runner with the same damage report.
@@bificommander Probably not such a big deal, all things considered, as long as both reports make it eventually.
@@gazeboist4535 True, it just gets confusing who's reporting on which hit.
@@bificommander good point.. lol
When are we returning to Iron Bottom Sound?
I'm really keen to see the continuation of the Guadalcanal series.
Early next month :)
Drachinifel yeay happy times for all 😃 Praise lord drachinifel!
@@Drachinifel - everything about the Guadalcanal campaign was just freaking savage and desperate. The Americans certainly weren't ready for major combat operations, and the Japanese had conquered and controlled 3,300,000 square miles of territory at that time.
@@Drachinifel you have a problem in that you've given us far too much great content so far and we all want more of different bits 😂
@@thehandoftheking3314 The most frequent reward for good work is more work
In the US we don't usually get to hear details like this about the war in the Med, now being given much more detail by Drach and other fine historians such as yourselves. Many thanks.
"All these new fire curtains are made of asbestos, by the way. Keeps out the shrapnel. Let us know if you feel a shortness of breath, a persistent dry cough or your heart stopping. Because that's not part of aircraft servicing. That's asbestos."
As has been said, the damage done to this ship was an eye opener to all.
I served on the ark Royal in 1964 it was, having joined her in Singapore, we were then to sail to east Africa to complete the oil embargo.
Before leaviing Singapore a fire broke out in one of the boiler rooms but this did not mean thart we stayed in Singapore, we sailed with the fire still very much a major problem untill it was under control two days later. Anyone not having a watch to go to was sent down to fight the fire.
So i can say for sure that the damage control training given to all those who serve, is given with good reason and works very well.
Clearly all those who served on this carrier really did very well, and i would say that a fair number of the ships company were lost during this damage .
I think it was Drach who said in another video that Illustrious survived an attack no other carrier would have. Consider for a moment that this huge ship is damaged, sailing through sea resistance with possible frame damage and very little ability to steer carefully, fires, casualties, all while under attack and subsequent attack. Amazing. ... (And "glowing armour"...!!!)
I think that one valid point that becomes evident, us how woefully inadequate was the carrier's Air Wing, 36 aircraft compared to USS Wasp's nearly 100 strong airwing.
Never heard about this. What a heroic ship and crew. Thanks Drach.
Royal Navy doctrine had been that their carriers would face a primary threat from land-based air since there was little expectation of operating against the Imperial Japanese Navy’s carriers in the Indian or Pacific Oceans. The extensive use of armour meant many trade offs in terms of reduced aircraft capacity as compared to their Japanese and American contemporaries. The RN carriers really shined in the late war as they were so resistant to kamikaze strikes as compared to the wooden decked American carriers.
Result of kamikaze hit on flight deck: Essex class - two months in Pearl Harbor or four months on the west coast; British carrier - sweepers to the flight deck, followed by a welder and a steel plate and a painter.
@@John-ru5ud Judging from overall results, both the USN and RN “got it right” for their anticipated use of carriers. Given the enormous distances for Pacific operations, the USN would need more aircraft to cover all that ocean and that would also help them “find first, strike first.” Their next generation of carriers had armoured flight decks as the anticipated needs were changing. The RN carriers were great in the Med and Atlantic, mostly less so in the Pacific. IIRC, the armoured carriers were almost entirely equipped with USN aircraft when they were supporting operations at Okinawa as the RN aircraft (Albacore, Swordfish, Fulmar, Barracuda) had hopelessly short ranges for Pacific operations. One must wonder how the USN carriers would have fared off Kyushu facing thousands of kamikazes had the atomic bombs not ended planning for Operation Olympic. It probably would have been truly awful. As is pointed out in the book “Neptune’s Inferno” by Hornfisher, the USN suffered far more casualties around Guadalcanal than did the US Marines. Kyushu would likely have been a repeat.
@@amerigo88 - Absolutely. The probable option to avoid the losses in an invasion of Japan if the A-Bomb was not available would have be continued fire bombing and interdiction of food shipments ... killing far more Japanese civilians.
@@John-ru5ud They filled some deeper dents with concrete as well..
The USN intentionally traded armored decks in exchange for increased aircraft capacity and striking power. This worked brilliantly in the open Pacific and wasn't a negative until the Fleet came within striking distance of the Japanese home islands and land based aircraft in 1945.
No other carrier in the war could have taken that kind of punishment. Maybe a Midway at the end of the war could have, a much bigger ship. Also, a pretty outstanding performance by Norfolk Navy yard to get her fixed in such an amazingly short time.
And an armored one as well.
Great collaboration. Drach always delivers. As for the Maltese; a braver people you couldn't hope to find.
Definitely would be cool to see more collaborations with this gentleman. Man’s got a voice like silk.
Armoured Carriers is a site I did not know I needed, but one day I was Googling at work and found it and I cannot quit it. I am more productive when I can take breaks at work and read about how the FAA fought to get Wildcats, or how the Unicorn filled a vital role puttering around the world's oceans fixing airplanes.
Midway - drawing the fighters down was sheer serendipity. Flieger X did it on purpose. Bloody clever Gerries.
"Illustrious loses power to her rudder..." Now, _that's_ a problem...
My paternal uncle Joseph Bell.
Served on HMS Warspite during the Narvik fjord action as an Able seaman stoker.
Uncle Joe transferred to HMS Illustrious during her time in refit in the USA.
Some connection between he and I in that I also spent time in Chesapeake bay although at NAB not NOB.
I was an able seaman MTH in the RAN as a crew member assigned to collecting the USS Saginaw, later to be commissioned into the Australian navy as HMAS Kanimbla.
Great information thank you for sharing.
Cheers
Can I just say the Armoured carrier website is amazing - the Slade and Worth rebuttal is particularly well done.
1:54 time flies when your having rum
An amazing episode, thank you and agree, the convoys were not mundane! The big item missing in this was no one mentioned how many men died during this action and they should be remembered.
It is a glaring and regretted omission; 83 killed 60 seriously wounded 40 light wounds, mostly among the hangar and damage control parties.
My grandfather CPO James Smyth was injured on that fateful day, he died 2 days later of his injuries and was buried at sea. There is a list on the Illustrious roll of honour.
I just noticed in the side bar your Operation Rheinübung video went over million views (probably some time ago) so congratulations on that. I'd rewatched that just a week ago and didn't notice. Love the collaborations like this one.
I bet when she left Norfolk, VA she had A WHOLE NEW ATTITUDE!!! Being in the states will do that for ya!!
Outstanding. Great detail and wonderful display of film and photos of the kind that are never shown in the routine war documentaries. Well done!
Probably one of your best collaborative videos thus far, and what an excellent historical website on the British carriers.
When they went to rebuild Illustrious after the war they found that many of the frames had been warped by the hest of the rear hangar fire. That made the rebuild not worthwhile so she was scrapped early. So you could say Fliegercorps X got her in the end 😉
All that means is that Lusty would not die when she was killed.
We laud the fame of ships that endure mighty blows and survive - like HMS Warspite or SMS Derfflinger , for instance.
But what Triumph, what praise is sufficient for a ship that is killed, and that even after terrible damage endures the front line of war and sees her enemies conquered?
Truly does she deserve the monikor "Hero Ship".
@me hee Thats kinda the point I was making too; I'm just....fond, shall we say, of poetic language ;)
iirc she had continuous problems with the centre shaft, so they took the screw off. Sealing off the shaft tunnel lead to the fitting of the "World's largest condom"
That was an absolutely magnificent story. Quite a testament to endurance, courage, and ingenuity.
@50:41 "The story of the Illustrious is, ..." Yes, say it, *say it* "is extraordinary and-" *MAY THE DROPBEARS TAKE YOU FOR NOT SAYING IT!!!*
Superb work, the amount of detailed information, anecdote and wider doctrinal knowledge was fascinating to hear. I thought I knew a lot about Illustrious and this action but have learnt a lot of detail and reasoning. Thank you both
Really enjoyed Armoured Carriers' contribution to this, will be checking out the website
This one was extra enjoyable, not sure why, perhaps the content is a bit glossed over in most histories. Perhaps both of you are very meticulous in your presentations. At any rate, It is extremely rare for me to start one over and listen again, which I did, so two gold stars.
Thank you Dr Felton and Guest, a brilliant presentation.
I love all the historical footage that Armoured Carriers manages to find and put up ❤❤
Ah, I see a torpedo boat has slipped in at 6:14 - albeit Italian and not Japanese ;)
Do you think it was a fruidian "torpedo boat" rather than a mental / excuse "torpedo boat".
“Surface action, Binoculars!”
@@davidbrennan660 Steady on, Admiral. We only have one box left!
Kamchatka
Thank you both this has been the most detailed description of the attack on HMS Illustrious I have come across and I found the description of the limitations of the Fulmar and planning of the air strikes by the Luftwaffe and the Reiga Aeronautica gave me new insights. Look forward to more .
An excellent video- there is something Riveting about in-depth storytelling of this type. Thank you very- informative and entertaining. Please keep up the good work.👍👍👍
Really enjoyed this collab, would be great to have him back again.
Superb photos and footage. Particularly enjoyed the deck take-offs and landings. Really high quality presentation.
LOVE the live video of actual ops on the ship. Really cool insight to stuff that you never see in all the still photos.
Excellent video. I really enjoy this channel, armored carrier was a nice addition for this episode.
Good thing Illustrious had an armored deck. If that would have been a Japanese or American Carrier they would still be exploring the wreck on the bottom.
Keep in mind that not having an armored flight deck does not translate into not having any armor protection against bombs. US designers made the hanger deck the strength deck, so the Yorktown class (for example) had 1.5" of STS steel as part of the hanger deck over vital spaces. So a similar bomb hitting a Yorktown might either go all the way through without detonating (or not hitting anything "vital"), or detonate in the compartments under the hanger deck without getting significantly deeper into vital spaces. The Essex class would increase that to 2.5" at the hanger deck level with a back up 1.5" deck a couple levels down (4th deck).
@@kemarisite The vital spaces are under the hangar deck in the Yorktown's. Even if the bomb does not detonate in the vital spaces, it will be detonating directly above them, sending shrapnel into the engine and boiler rooms.
What happened to USS Franklin, CV-13 would’ve happened to HMS Illustrious...
@@TraditionalAnglican Franklin was hit by a pair of 550lb bombs. Illustrious was hit by one 2200lb bomb, 2-3 1100lb bombs, 1-2 550lb bombs and a small GP bomb.
If you replace illustrious with a American carrier the fight cover would have be 3 to 4 time larger. If it illustrious was replaced with a late war American carrier then there would be 2 carriers.
*sigh*
The myth of the fighters being drawn down to sea level at Midway rears its ugly head again. Torpedo 8's attack was 45 minutes or more before the SBDs showed up: really all it signified was that the IJN didn't have time to spot the strike anymore (Nagumo was thinking about doing so, since there hadn't been an attack for about 30-40 minutes by this point. the Japanese needed about an hour undisturbed to spot the strike and launch it if I recall). there were constant attacks for the next hour or so until the SBDs tipped over. the Kido Butai was also cycling Zeros up and down all day. they had plenty of time to re-establish the cap. The real killer was the fact that the Dauntlesses showed up as part of a full strike from Yorktown, an the CAP got tangled up with Thatch's Wildcats. I think there was a strike off Midway over the carriers at that point too.
All this is from Parschall and Tully's book Shattered Sword btw.
Yes, it wasn't as clear cut as I made it sound. It did happen. But not in the way the movies tell it.
True but the fighter cap was lacking good communication so they relied on the pilots returning asap. In all the excitement they didn't.
It is history... that deserves to be remembered! 😀
This talk is just brilliant! Realy enjoyed it, you realy nailed the questions, and sir answering surely knows his stuff! Thank you for some quality content- as always;)
Wow, this is so good! Really enjoyed it, thanks for posting.
An epic tale of endurance and commitment.May the heroes that paid the ultimate price never be forgotten.
I think I love this ship.
I love this stuff! Very interesting.
Particular intriguing are the obscure background facts that affected this battle such as lack of spares for the British, Admiralty’s mentality about carrier use at that time, and the fleet admiral’s positioning of his ships that put Illustrious in terrible position.
Amazing footage in this. Not seen any of that before and was surprised there was any.
I don’t leave too many comments here, but Drach this was great. Thanks to you and your guest this episode gets some attention and isnt lost to history. The armored box concept certainly saved this ship. Thanks for a compelling video.
An hour of Drachinifel! Just what I needed today! It should be noted that the Japanese modified battle ship shells with fins to use at Pearl Harbor. These would have been the 1850 lb shells of the Nagato class when that ships guns were modified to fire the new 2150 lb shells. During the Mitchell trials his aircraft used 1000lb and 2000lb bombs that were designed either to penetrate armor decks or if they hit along side the hull, they would cause underwater damage. Mitchell also attacked with small bombs and gas canisters with the idea that AA crews would be forced to seek cover, which as it turned out never happened, nor was gas ever used on any ship of any Navy. The US navy did use 1000lb AP bombs, but never used anything bigger due to range limits.
Love those early morning Drach drops
Either your not in Europe or you get a great lie in
@@icarus_falling I'm just glad I live in the UK, so that I can say I'm going to enjoy my Wednesday rum ration without seeming like I have a problem.
Late night for me, perfect for sitting in bed with a cuppa.
Indeed I am not in Europe, rather the US. So that most of Drach’s videos hit around 4 to 6am. Being as I work night shift, that usually means that I therefore get to unwind from my day with said videos.
Interesting in that the amount of damage possible was in some way set by how many aircraft were aboard. The closest analogue might've bean Hiryu at Midway, which took 4 1000lb SAPs well forward (and ended up with the forward elevator leaning against the island). Hiryu had fewer than a dozen strike aircraft left at that moment, but had 20-30 fighters aboard (and a similar amount overhead), and these were concentrated in the forward hangers. Hiryu burned stem to stern, Illustrious was able to confine the blaze to the rear of the hanger. Having the fire forward was obviously problem one, the natural wind is going to push it back, but the biggest issue seams to have been too many planes with too much fuel (though little ordnance).
The other point of comparison would be Formidable's fire in the hanger deck (when a landing Corsair bounced over the barrier and fell into an elevator). Again the fire was contained, but that time there had been enough heat to do significant structural damage.
Bunker Hill and Franklin both had significant strikes spotted aft when hit (12-20 craft).
Also worth noting, Fliegercorps X got no torpedo hits. Very few "fleet" sized carriers sank without some torp damage. (The Midway 4 and Princeton.. and Glorious if you are splitting things that way.)
It is worth noting that many of those carriers sunk by torpedo had been disabled by bombs, exposing them to successful attack. Swings and roundabouts, as the saying goes.
@@ArmouredCarriers The point being, torpedo damage generally made getting out of the area more difficult and put pressure on the power systems. If your attack doesn't get torpedoes into the target, they are likely to get away (you may not see them for a while, but the ship likely survives). Ergo Corp X seems a bit unbalanced (not enough torp bombers) and more inclined to use them for distractions. As opposed to say the Japanese group that hit Force Z (much more torpedo biased).
The picture of the HMS Illustrious at 50:20 is so reminiscent of the outline of a modern US carrier or SCB-27C Essex class that you've got to wonder if the Americans just completely stole all the British plans. Either that or the Royal Navy and US Navy had different priorities. It's just really interesting to look at all the design concepts for flattops that the Americans just outright stole from British engineers, from Fresnel lenses to angled decks to steam catapults to the enclosed weather deck and fo'c'sle found on nearly every British carrier. It makes the British carriers look much more modern than the Essex class even in the 1930s since the US carriers with the exception of Lex and Sara, had AA guns placed on the bows. This also is probably due to climate. The Royal Navy was designing for use worldwide and various sea states, and the US Navy was designing primarily for war against Japan and the relatively calm Pacific.
I had never really heard this story before. I would imagine that if a bomb managed to explode inside the hangar deck of a British carrier, it would be devastating because the armor would just compound the effects of the explosion and the shockwave would just rip the insides of the ship apart. Similar to how Operation Valkyrie failed because Hitler decided to have the meeting outside instead of inside the bunker, and even that briefcase would have probably done the job in the bunker because of the pressure wave having nowhere to go but he was unscathed how it happened because the shock from the blast just diffused into the air. The difference, though, is that the hole that the bomb pierced would provide a way out for the explosion, whereas the briefcase example is from the inside with no hole. I'm just an amateur but this is what I think would happen.
I find the resilience of the British carriers and their ability to stand up to punishment incredible. The US Navy had a different doctrine and it worked for them for the most part, but when it didn't, you had events like USS Franklin, Bunker Hill, Intrepid, and Princeton to name a few. Designing with the inevitability of taking damage in mind in my opinion is the best way to design a ship, especially a carrier, and that's why the Midway class were designed the way they were: they combined the best parts of the US and the Royal Navy designs into one, combining absurd air groups and being covered in anti aircraft batteries with a fully armored flight deck.
I hope you could read through my essay on the topic. I really appreciate all your content Drach, keep up the incredible work.
Nicely put together comments easy and interesting to read. Midway class; very impressive ships by any measure but especially the Midway herself and the massive rebuild she got. Though not perfect in every respect she had an exceptionally long service life and was still a potent force at the end.
The USN adopted the angled decks and enclosed bows from RN carriers. The Coral Sea class super carriers were built with armored flight decks, which is a reason they were about 45,000 tons, or twice the displacement of the Essex-class carriers while, like the Essexes, carrying enough aircraft to fight carrier-carrier battles in the Pacific. Pre-war USN carrier design, though, ran its own path. Biggest factor, maybe, is that the USN kept control of its aircraft from bomber fanatics like Billy Mitchell. About 1920, the RAF got control of aircraft that would be used aboard the RN's carriers. The USN had experimented with and debated the size of carriers, concluding that the Yorktowns were optimal. The USN controlled aircraft procurement, which is why a US carrier air group in 1941 -- other than Ranger -- would have had a squadron of TBD, torpedo planes, a squadron of scout bombers and dive bombers, SBD Douglass Dauntless, and a fighter squadron flying the F4F-3 Grumman Wildcats. (Although, I think Lexington carried the Brewster Buffalo until around December 7). All those aircraft were tested and proven tough enough to land on carriers, and performed well. They followed several generations of carrier aircraft, each tried and refined. The RAF cared nothing for the RN, which entered the war using the Skua dive-bomber and the Roc as fighter planes. That's why Illustrious was flying the overweight, "slow to altitude", Fulmar. For more details, see www.armouredcarriers.com/grumman-f4f-martlet-development and www.armouredcarriers.com/fairey-fulmar-development
The USN definitely had different design priorities than the RN. The USN carrier designs were built around being able to deliver an overwhelming airstrike on the enemy fleet. RN doctrine slotted the carrier in as an adjunct to the battlewagons to serve a screening, recon, and attrition role. The early war carriers were smaller than what the USN wanted because of treaty tonnage limits or were wartime emergency light cruiser conversions. Released from tonnage restrictions, the pressing needs of an active war, and the resource competition from battleship construction they built mammoth carriers with armored decks.
@@Fulcrum205 That's pretty much it. During the 1930s, the USN expected to fight the Japanese across the Pacific, which meant carrying as many attack aircraft as possible, plus spare planes and spare parts, a full-scale machine shop, a large store of ammunition, plus large stores of aviation fuel and ship's oil. The USN had to work in a huge ocean with few bases. The RN expected to fight Italy and Germany in the Mediterranean and the North Sea. Neither had aircraft carriers, but both would have air bases near enough to hit RN squadrons. The IJN, like the USN, needed to steam its "airbases" with the fleet. Both expected carrier-to-carrier battles, and both, as you say, believed that to win they needed to fly the biggest first strike against a sighted target. USN had considered armored flight decks, but designed for hitting power instead. "Illustrious" was repaired at Norfolk, where USN engineers carefully considered the "armoured" deck that had saved her. The Essex-class was already designed and were being built, so it was too late to armor them. That had to wait for the Midway/Coral Sea/FDR. As it was, the Yorktowns and Essexes were pretty tough!
@@redskindan78 A question about the RN that always bothered me was their aircraft development. If they were planning to have to fly sorties in range of Land based fighters why were they developing such poor performing aircraft?. Even in the context of the mid 1930s the Fulmar, Albacore, Swordfish, etc were not good enough to fight the other likely adversary aircraft. Even the crappy old Wildcat would fly circles around the Fulmar. Observers in the Spanish Civil War and China had to have some idea of what the FAA was likely to be fighting against yet they still dragged their feet on putting something capable on the RN carriers.
Why did they not try to navalize the Hurricane, Spitfire, etc, right away? The Fulmar could have been reworked into the strike role. The range of the fighters would have been lacking but at least they could catch a Ju88 or SM79.
Superb ! I am big fan of Armoured Carriers website, thanx for great work of yours...
Very interesting and quite awesome footage on the incident.
Thx a lot!
Excellent Drach, you two work well together.
Congrats Drachinifel, you have graduated to 1st Tier Ads, with KelloggsUS on 21OCT20
Was it Corn Flakes? :D
@@Drachinifel Frosted Flakes was the one I got.
@@Drachinifel Apple Jack's and Corn Pops - All part of a wonderfully well balanced diet
Really good video with an extremely knowledgeable guest. I don't know why but the RN carrier videos are some of the best on the channel, they seem to be very good at telling the story of doctrine/conops to engineering solution to in-service performance, with great analysis of all steps. More please :)
Australia was not saved by America during WW2 as Drachinifel's guest claimed, Australia was saved by Australians. Australia a heavily armed first world nation spread over a vast area was unconquerable by Imperial Japan, Japan did not have a big enough navy with enough sea-lift to carry and supply a large enough army to defeat Australia when Australians were willing to fight and never surrender. Japan knew this so rather than invade and be defeated and humiliated Japan's war leaders opted to try and isolate Australia from her allies. An armed population saved Australia from invasion, not her allies.
Very interesting and fun show. Wonderful to have America`s most ardent Allies, Britain and Australia share there invaluable perspective. Thank you Australia for all your help in both our past and present needs. America loves you guys. Kevin from sunny Mexico.
Thank you, Uncle Drach and Mr. Carriers, for this fascinating video. The books carried by the libraries in the U.S. only mention these actions and provide scant detail.
It's fair to say the books aren't all that much different in the UK, Australia etc. Though things are starting to improve.
Fascinating, thank you! I knew only the basic details before.
Congratulations on another first rate presentation. Well done!
I have not watched yet but I’m guessing when my two favourite naval historians get together it’s going to be awesome
It's probably worth remembering that the 1000kg bomb had a bigger bursting charge than a 15" AP shell.
If the bomb was the SC1000 type then it's penetration is ca4" so the 3" deck must have slowed it down significantly
Another solid presentation, thank you.
The diagrams and photos are excellent as I had seen this story before and heard of this with the Ballentine book series as a kid here in the States. Your channel and additional guests just bring it to life 50+ years later. Bespoke work is an interesting term as well, never heard of that used before.
Excellent video. Should have had more information on the casualties among the crew of Illustrious. I wonder how an armoured carrier would have coped with multiple torpedo hits instead of bombs on the deck ?
Can't have enough of this videos, i never stop learning
Excellent, I'll listen to this in the bath, as usual. ⚓🕝
Thank you.
The first I learned of this event was a section in a book called "The War at Sea". It was titled Illustrious' Fight For Life & was a collection of first hand accounts of the bombing & aftermath. It was the first time I learned how tough the RN carriers were.