Dave this was really well explained for a such a complex topic. Thank you so much for following up, and I loved the detailed example at the end including when Humility leaves the battlefield.
I got this one right!! Thanks to the video where you explained why some non-basic lands that normally enter tapped would not enter tapped under a blood moon. Or something like that... Do you remember what video I'm referring to? Iirc in that video you mentioned you had that incorrectly at first
Is this the same with hydras? As they enter with X +1/+1 counters. So with a already established humility in play would a X=4 hydra be a 1/1 under humilty or a 1/1 and 4 +1/+1 counters
Can you explain the ruling with worldspine wurm and angels grace from the griselbrand combo deck. It’s interesting and I have had to explain it a lot in matches.
@@JudgingFtW you draw out your deck into handwith griselbrand after you goryos vengeance him out of the grave yard and exile 4 simian spirit guides and cast desperate ritual to cast through the breach with borborygmos enraged and discard lands to deal damage to an adnausium deck. They cast angels grace. during the end step you discard to handsize and discard worldspine wurm which has a trigger that lets you respond to it after angels graces ability ends that turn to get in the last bit of damage with borborygmos enraged. I’ve had a lot of adnausium decks say that angels graces ability is still active during that end step but there is a weird ruling that lets this happen. There are a couple of videos of Jeff hoogland doing this on mtgo that could better show the interaction. Still one of my favorites.
@@FAWNTHEMELON You're talking about the cleanup step section 514. 1st the turn based actions of discarding and ending "this turn" and "until end of turn" effects. 514.1, 514.2. Then rule 514.3a says if anything triggers or SBAs are performed, create another cleanup step and players get priority on this cleanup. (After appropriate SBAs and triggers go on the stack)
Note that rule 614.12 (worst phased text in the book) means that while you take into account what something will look like if it were on the battlefield, you can't take into account anything that will enter with it. For example 1. A clone and another creature entering together won't allow you to have the clone copy the creature it enters with. 2. Clone entering with humility (at the same time) can still choose a creature to copy.
@@Vardaris You misunderstood the example If the clone were to enter *WITH* the humility somehow, the clone can absolutely choose a creature to copy. He said (and was correct) that if a humility is on the battlefield, the clone can't copy anything with it's ability. I wasn't clear, I'll make an edit
@@ozrithclay6921 Yes if they somehow will enter at the same time (for example you resolve a Genesis Ultimatum) you can choose a creature with clone but not any of the creatures that come with the same Ultimatum in play. But clone will still be a 1/1 with no abilities and if the creature you chose with clone has an Enters the battlefield ability (for example you choose to clone a Reflector Mage) nothing will happen.
Not really since State-based actions will be checked before anyone gets priority to take an action. The closest thing is to bounce it to hand before Humility leaves the battlefield and replay it after
Cycling an Astral Drift would work. Clone leaves the battlefield while Humility is still in play but waits to return until the beginning of the end step when Humility is gone.
Hm, so Himility "wins". Is it because the continuous effects (that would affect permanents entering the battlefield as if those permanents were already onto the battlefield) are taken into account AFTER the permanent's own replacement effects? Or because removing abilities itself is more important?
It's only because a specific rule was written for Enters-the-battlefield replacement effects. The rule says that for this 1 type of replacement effect, you look at how the entering permanent will look to see if the replacement effect applies. *note that you still don't take into account anything else not already on the battlefield. (Clones can't choose things they enter with)
A crazy interaction this rule changed is "If player A owned Xantcha and gave it to player B, then Player B cast cloudshift, who would choose the opponent to get control of Xantcha? The old answer would have been "no player controls a card in exile, so Xantcha's owner would choose." Now because of 614.12, we look at how she would look on the battlefield and see player B would control her (cloudshift's instructions) and the replacement effect asks player B which of their opponents gets control.
Hey wait a minute, if I don't name a card with meddling mage, how come Spike Feeder still comes into play with 2 counters if humility is in play? Spike Feeder and Meddling Mage both have replacement effects..... 🤔🤔🤔
@@miserepoignee9594 as far as I know, it has always come into play with the counters, and I've heard this from several players, but this video leads me to think otherwise.
@@miserepoignee9594 okay, turns out spike Feeder used to enter with the counters while a humility was in play, but the rules of ETBs were changed around the time of Ixilan.
Hmm. The way I understand this one, is that the meddling mage comes into play as a 1/1 with no abilities. Similar to how blood moon makes a shock land come into play untapped because it's just a mountain.
One thing you might notice is that since we have to stop the video to read the rule, because it's hard read and understand your saying, specially if you're a non-native speaker, the you tube bar covers part of the ruling making it difficult to fully read the it. Try to put it a above the bar. Hope this helps improve your videos. Bye
This is a really good point, but I can't think of a good way to fix it. There's not enough space between the cards, and sometimes the rule is so long I need all the space I can get. Where would you think I should move it?
@@JudgingFtW Since by the time the you get to the CR you're done explaining and looking at the cards. Maybe at that time move the cards to the bottom corners of the screen and do the CR up top?
Huh, I had always assumed that etb replacement effects were more like cast triggers, rather then normal creature effects that apply on the battlefield.
Yeah working in replacement effects that must exist on the battlefield before they can apply is a little difficult when they need to apply just before they enter. So the rules are a bit ... twisted.
Meddling mage comes into play, card is named and named card can not be played. Humility comes into play and the ability of Meddling mage is replaced, previously named card can be played again. What happens when Humility leaves play (due to Disenchant or any other spell)? Is the named card, when MM was played, being 'remembered'? Or is it 'forgotten' and Meddling mage is again 2/2 with static ability that does not impact what cards can be played or can not?
The name is hopefully remembered by the players, who may have written it down. The second ability refers to any names chosen by the first ability of that same permanent. It is still the same permanent, it is still the same ability (even though the ability disappeared for a while, that is not the same as a permanent leaving the battlefield and returning) and a name was chosen, so the second ability works as normal.
Dave this was really well explained for a such a complex topic. Thank you so much for following up, and I loved the detailed example at the end including when Humility leaves the battlefield.
Got this one right because of how Cavern of Souls work with Blood Moon
I love this question as I had to start wrapping my head around it when people started to play more often with Dress Down! Great video as always!
Wow, this one's super confusing ... there's so much going on!
Neat, humbled by Humility again. I had this one wrong, but now I know
Ah 614.12, the reason why i can cheat 15 gods into play through a containment priest
And still get those Purphoros triggers
@@ozrithclay6921 yeup, you my man know what's good!
World tree is a fun card
I got this one right!! Thanks to the video where you explained why some non-basic lands that normally enter tapped would not enter tapped under a blood moon. Or something like that... Do you remember what video I'm referring to? Iirc in that video you mentioned you had that incorrectly at first
I think it was shock land and Blood moon as I'm seeing in the other comments
Is this the same with hydras? As they enter with X +1/+1 counters. So with a already established humility in play would a X=4 hydra be a 1/1 under humilty or a 1/1 and 4 +1/+1 counters
Can you explain the ruling with worldspine wurm and angels grace from the griselbrand combo deck. It’s interesting and I have had to explain it a lot in matches.
Can you explain a little more what the situation would be? I'm having trouble seeing what kind of interaction these two cards would have.
@@JudgingFtW you draw out your deck into handwith griselbrand after you goryos vengeance him out of the grave yard and exile 4 simian spirit guides and cast desperate ritual to cast through the breach with borborygmos enraged and discard lands to deal damage to an adnausium deck. They cast angels grace. during the end step you discard to handsize and discard worldspine wurm which has a trigger that lets you respond to it after angels graces ability ends that turn to get in the last bit of damage with borborygmos enraged. I’ve had a lot of adnausium decks say that angels graces ability is still active during that end step but there is a weird ruling that lets this happen. There are a couple of videos of Jeff hoogland doing this on mtgo that could better show the interaction. Still one of my favorites.
@@FAWNTHEMELON
You're talking about the cleanup step section 514.
1st the turn based actions of discarding and ending "this turn" and "until end of turn" effects. 514.1, 514.2.
Then rule 514.3a says if anything triggers or SBAs are performed, create another cleanup step and players get priority on this cleanup. (After appropriate SBAs and triggers go on the stack)
@@ozrithclay6921 yup
I always thought replacement effects still happen if a humility is in play.
They changed the rules on how that works a few years ago. Before, it worked like you said.
nice haircut my guy you're looking sharp
Humility, gives judges headache since 1997.
Note that rule 614.12 (worst phased text in the book) means that while you take into account what something will look like if it were on the battlefield, you can't take into account anything that will enter with it.
For example
1. A clone and another creature entering together won't allow you to have the clone copy the creature it enters with.
2. Clone entering with humility (at the same time) can still choose a creature to copy.
Number 1 is correct but for number 2 he literally says that you will NOT have an opportunity to choose a creature in the video 4:37.
@@Vardaris
You misunderstood the example
If the clone were to enter *WITH* the humility somehow, the clone can absolutely choose a creature to copy.
He said (and was correct) that if a humility is on the battlefield, the clone can't copy anything with it's ability.
I wasn't clear, I'll make an edit
@@ozrithclay6921 Yes if they somehow will enter at the same time (for example you resolve a Genesis Ultimatum) you can choose a creature with clone but not any of the creatures that come with the same Ultimatum in play. But clone will still be a 1/1 with no abilities and if the creature you chose with clone has an Enters the battlefield ability (for example you choose to clone a Reflector Mage) nothing will happen.
@@Vardaris But when the Humility leaves, then the Clone will remember the chosen creature and actually get to clone the chosen creature?
@@tiborgrun6963
If it made a choice when it entered, it will remember
For a modern-viable version of this interaction, casting a dress down in response to a meddling mage should do the trick.
I have 2 suggestions: arixmethis and theros gods vs containment priests :)
Is there a way to flicker the card clone before it dies
Not really since State-based actions will be checked before anyone gets priority to take an action.
The closest thing is to bounce it to hand before Humility leaves the battlefield and replay it after
Cycling an Astral Drift would work. Clone leaves the battlefield while Humility is still in play but waits to return until the beginning of the end step when Humility is gone.
Makes sense. Cool.m
Hm, so Himility "wins". Is it because the continuous effects (that would affect permanents entering the battlefield as if those permanents were already onto the battlefield) are taken into account AFTER the permanent's own replacement effects? Or because removing abilities itself is more important?
It's only because a specific rule was written for Enters-the-battlefield replacement effects.
The rule says that for this 1 type of replacement effect, you look at how the entering permanent will look to see if the replacement effect applies.
*note that you still don't take into account anything else not already on the battlefield.
(Clones can't choose things they enter with)
@@ozrithclay6921 I see! Are there any other situations where replacement effects sorta look into the future?
@@AkukAkuku
As far as I'm aware, no.
This is the only exception in the book I've seen
5:40 i did not lol
A crazy interaction this rule changed is
"If player A owned Xantcha and gave it to player B, then Player B cast cloudshift, who would choose the opponent to get control of Xantcha?
The old answer would have been "no player controls a card in exile, so Xantcha's owner would choose."
Now because of 614.12, we look at how she would look on the battlefield and see player B would control her (cloudshift's instructions) and the replacement effect asks player B which of their opponents gets control.
Hey wait a minute, if I don't name a card with meddling mage, how come Spike Feeder still comes into play with 2 counters if humility is in play? Spike Feeder and Meddling Mage both have replacement effects..... 🤔🤔🤔
Is this right? I think it should not come in with any counters.
@@miserepoignee9594 as far as I know, it has always come into play with the counters, and I've heard this from several players, but this video leads me to think otherwise.
@@miserepoignee9594 okay, turns out spike Feeder used to enter with the counters while a humility was in play, but the rules of ETBs were changed around the time of Ixilan.
Hmm. The way I understand this one, is that the meddling mage comes into play as a 1/1 with no abilities. Similar to how blood moon makes a shock land come into play untapped because it's just a mountain.
It works exactly like that.
@@JudgingFtW how come Spike Feeder still comes into play with 2 +1/+1 counters on it while humility is in play?? 🤔
One thing you might notice is that since we have to stop the video to read the rule, because it's hard read and understand your saying, specially if you're a non-native speaker, the you tube bar covers part of the ruling making it difficult to fully read the it. Try to put it a above the bar. Hope this helps improve your videos. Bye
This is a really good point, but I can't think of a good way to fix it. There's not enough space between the cards, and sometimes the rule is so long I need all the space I can get. Where would you think I should move it?
@@JudgingFtW maybe in front of your face or maybe removing one of the cards for a while can help :)
@@JudgingFtW
Since by the time the you get to the CR you're done explaining and looking at the cards.
Maybe at that time move the cards to the bottom corners of the screen and do the CR up top?
Huh, I had always assumed that etb replacement effects were more like cast triggers, rather then normal creature effects that apply on the battlefield.
Yeah working in replacement effects that must exist on the battlefield before they can apply is a little difficult when they need to apply just before they enter.
So the rules are a bit ... twisted.
I found you yesterday and I love the vids. But how come clone dies? Shouldn't it be a 1/1?
Edit: NVM I misheard you in the video
Meddling mage comes into play, card is named and named card can not be played.
Humility comes into play and the ability of Meddling mage is replaced, previously named card can be played again.
What happens when Humility leaves play (due to Disenchant or any other spell)?
Is the named card, when MM was played, being 'remembered'? Or is it 'forgotten' and Meddling mage is again 2/2 with static ability that does not impact what cards can be played or can not?
The name is hopefully remembered by the players, who may have written it down. The second ability refers to any names chosen by the first ability of that same permanent. It is still the same permanent, it is still the same ability (even though the ability disappeared for a while, that is not the same as a permanent leaving the battlefield and returning) and a name was chosen, so the second ability works as normal.