DEBATE: Does NJ Transit Really Need Stadler FLIRTs?
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- čas přidán 2. 08. 2024
- Bergenist's Channel: / @tmc_bc
We're doing something a little different today. I've been wanting to upload this for over a month now. I collaborated with my friend @TMC_BC to have a friendly debate. Should NJ Transit really buy Stadler FLIRTs - as great as they are, do they really hold a place on America's 3rd busiest transit network? Let's find out today with some of your opinions. Who do you think is right? Me or Bergenist? Enjoy this new one lads!
Thanks to @TheRandomRailfan for letting me use his Metro-North footage: / @therandomrailfan
Chapters:
0:00 What is the Stadler FLIRT?
0:37 The Point of this Debate
0:56 My Honest Take
2:45 Bergenist's Take
6:35 Conclusion
6:59 Thanks for watching!
Sources / Credits:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadler...
• TexRail's Stadler FLIR...
• Stadler FLIRT Train On...
• Stadler FLIRT DMU 2233...
• Stadler Flirt goes thr...
• [Stadler FLIRT] HSL Co...
• New Stadler Flirt, Slo...
• Stadler Flirt Slovenia...
• Metrolink Arrow DMU 34...
• Metrolink’s Arrow Serv...
• NJ Transit Pascack Val...
• Stadler FLIRT - SrbijaVoz
• Thameslink BR Class 70...
• Facing a full-speed, d...
Music:
• Let's Dance
• ProleteR - April Showers
Thanks again for watching, everyone! - Hry
Worth mentioning that Stadler FLIRTs don't have to be low floor. The UK has 1000mm high platform FLIRTs which are also dual power so they can run on both electrified and non-electrified trackage. The Stadler FLIRT is highly customisable and flexible so you have different combinations of high and low floor, electric, diesel or both, high and low density door configurations, etc. And if there isn't enough capacity, just get some Stadler KISS trains like Caltrain.
You can't fit end gangways to FLIRTs. Also, the UK FLIRTs still have steps to get between train and platform.
UK has like ~90cm platforms or roughly a front yard.
@@ToddKeck98 The UK has platform heights from 100mm to 1288mm.
The Stadlers at Canthus in Germany are hidiously deep for German circumstances at some stations. Nice trains but they are deep.
Uk platforms are TALL and medium sized. Its perfect comparison to American platforms, so stadler class 745s would be a good fit. Also they don't need the low floor design. They could just follow through with the same carriage bogie set up as a class 700, or any usa subway train. Its easy for manufacturersto do that@@ToddKeck98
For those who don’t know there are high floor variants of the FLIRTs in the UK
I 100% agree on electrification; project #1 should be the rest of the Coast Line to Bay Head, as well as through running.
I will say I do think the dual mode high floor version of the FLIRT should
Be used on the Atlantic City Line; the diesel exhaust is terrible at 30th street.
True, however, they could easily buy a charger or buy a locomotive for cheaper than buy an emu.
I think they should be used on the Atlantic City line and restore service to Mount Holly and Cape May , the Gladstone branch should use electric flirts you would need to high level platform that line.
My Thoughts exactly.
They would need to be made compatible with the platforms at the 30th street station at the Philly end.
@@druliefw what would they need at 30th street?
@@Nexis4Jersey The high platforms at 30th street and many stations along the way, including AC itself. I believe some stations on the AC line are low level steps. Also it is not electrified. I do not see that happening any time soon.
@@druliefw They make high level flirt trains and Bi-modal flirt trains which they use in the UK.
As others have stated Stadler does make high floor FLIRTs (or KISS trains for that matter) so modifying station to accommodate them is a non issue. I do agree that full electrification of rail lines should be a priority.
Otherwise, other than the NEC I would think using FLIRTs (especially the FLIRT 200s) on the reactivated Lackawanna Cutoff line would be interesting.
Definitely would be appropriate for the LONG-delayed Camden-Glassboro line in S Jersey. They could terminate in Camden like the RiverLine does (it uses older Stadler DMUs) or if dual-mode, could perhaps even run into Phila over PATCO tracks.
That line should be PATCO with driverless new trains
As an European it's a no brainer: get flirts and electrify everything
Flirt Akku can operate on partially electrified routes, so for branch lines it might be more economical to put up some electric sections for recharging. It does make the rolling stock more expensive though.
Honestly I’m completely chill about commuter rails having these.
I have family in Slovenia, and I believe I might have rode these trainsets
Slovenia has FLIRTS, and it also has the newest version of them! They look absolutely beautiful, I have seen them in Austria on the line from Graz to Ljubljana. I hope to ride them some day
They'd work on a few lines, besides Pascack Valley, the Montclair-Boonton, RVL, ACL. The platform height issue would need to be resolved possibly with multiple doors servicing different platform heights like the Bi-levels. Use the high floor variant used in the UK with a separate set of doors for low platforms. They'd help reduce the trip times with better acceleration. It would really benefit the M-B line a lot.
Remember there aren't only high floor FLIRTs in the UK, FSR Polish PKP Intercity got high floor FLIRTs with a ridiculous amount of steps you need to climb to board
Stadler has a really flexible business model, they will literally build what ever you order from them. Heck, they even build narrow gauge trains and rack railways. So anything you need, they can and will build it 😂
There are miltiple things to consider;
- Flirts can be high-floor, defeating the concern Bergenist had.
- Flirts can come in EMU, Diesel-electric, Bi-mode, TRI-mode, Battery electric with overhead charging or even Hydrogen.
- There is no big need to build new and/or change current infrastructure to accommodate Flirt units when they're configured for the right job at the right place, especially with how flexible the units are to customize.
TLDR; Flirts are a huge win to be implemented in the NJ Transit system with the incredible amount of customization and flexibility.
I agree with your friend, I say no, too!!
Well, personally, I think your arguments are crap. Stadler is known for customization or straight up bespoke designs for one. And secondly, the UK has a bunch of high level FLIRT units currently running as DMU, EMU and BiMode units. While Norway recently received tri-mode FLIRT200 models for sleeper trains. The floor height is more a feature of Europe basically having standardized on 55cm platforms with the exception of Germany, which uses EVERY height.
As for 3rd rail, there’s simply almost no 3rd rail networks where you would want to run a FLIRT, but there are multi voltage FLIRTs out there running on 1500DC among other voltages, and Stadler has metro trains running 3rd rail, sometimes even with a pantograph. Thus, I‘m fairly certain that Stadler would happily sell high floor FLIRTs as a tri or even quad mode diesel, overhead, 3rd rail and maybe even battery. Interoperable on NJT, LIRR and MetroNorth
Yep, Stadler will custom build anything, like, there's dozens of small mountain railways in the alps with customized rolling stock, by Stadler, as well as the third rail powered High floor EMUs they built for the Tyne and Wear metro in the UK, Greater Anglia also has high floor FLIRTS as well.
That is the whole point of the FLIRT Platform after all, being a highly customizable Base fitted to an Operators needs
With regards to third rail. Its not an issue, adapt the electrics to fit the voltage. There are systems that can be mounted easily onto a flirt to be compatible with third railm
Additionally, uk class 777s are miniature flirts. They are only third rail operated. Stalder can pair up with ABB electrics and get systems compatible with third rail. Its a win if you ask me.
@@cyri96the thing is any company can really do it now and by any i mean the big manufacturers. CAF, alstom, siemens, hitachi (probably, as theres enough engineering research available to do it), Stadler, etc. Most manufacturers are expected to be able to design custom built trains now
And if its easier stadler can also design traditional carriages with dual bogie set up. If they want to reduce weight, just use inner framed bogies for the trailer bogies
@@bb-3653 I mean, I‘m fairly certain there’s a 600-650VDC bus at the end, before the inverters as there motor tend to run at 300-600V 3 phase, so you wouldn’t need an additional transformer in the 3phase high frequency part. As I said, it’s simply that noone has ordered one SO FAR. It’s Stadler, they will customise it for your need, minimum order size one, provided physics agrees
@@bb-3653 well yes, but there’s a difference between the other big ones and Stadler: the others have a decently big minimum order size, especially for straight up custom stuff; Stadler has one too: 1. they even advertise their portfolio of „tailor made“ and for example have a near monopoly in the cog rail market despite the patents having expired a century ago
No, simply because NJ Transit has already invested in ALP45 and ALP46 fleets while considering the Multilevel IIIs.
The Uk has high floor Flirts the Class745 EMu's
High floor Flirt is a thing FWIW \m/
Could’ve mentioned Bi-Modes cuz STADLER also makes Bi-Mode FLIRTS, so like they should get STADLER FLIRTS but include Bi-Mode Sets for Lines like the North Jersey Coast Line or the Montclair-Booton Line
Literally Metra
Just logical that all the commuter rail networks in the NY, NJ, CT area use common equipment. In the future, when common sense finally takes over from the current fiefdoms used by the different transit agencies, the entire tri-state area will benefit from common equipment that can travel between the different transit agencies.
I love your music choice. It's like you've hand-picked them from my favorites playlists
The flirts operated by greater anglia would be a great base for the NJ but with the lower floor modifications for some of the smaller points and also being bi mode.
They can make Flirts and Kisses with high-ground level doors and battery as well…
If you look at Caltrain Kisses, they both have low-ground and high-ground level doors.
Is possible to set doors in Stadler trains at different levels at the same time for future changes, like door plugs for airplanes.
An easy fix for your friends concerns are the Stadler class 745 /755 in the uk. The uk only has high floor train platforms for its commuter services. But the stadler flirsts are level flooring even for those platforms so its a win win.
. Its actually easier for stadler to design high floor units as they are very uniform . Most train companies now are expected to make variable trains anyway.
.to make it even easier , a uniform 20 meter carriage with 2 bogies oer car set up is an easy format for stadler to design. As that formation is similat to UK and USA train models.
Also, the power output would make you hit speeds very quickly. 100-125mph.(161-200kmh) between 30mile to 50mile or 100mile distances , you name it. Flirts have HIGH power output trains.
Its a VERY feasible solution if you ask me. Even CAF, have civity fleet with high and low flooring, so do seimens , alstom europe etc. Not an issue for Stadler to do all models if need be.
The flirts are good for branch or feeder lines to connect to the main rail line. Also would be a good replacement for the river line train sets which are built extremely similar to the current flirts.
Flirts do come in a high floor variant. Greater Anglia runs Class 745 and 755 sets between London Liverpool Street and Essex/East Anglia. They share tracks with the Class 378 Overground trains you showed at 3:06 .
Sure, electrification is a good thing, you should do that as well, but my guess is that by the time you finish it, the Firts are going to be close to the end of their 40-year life.
Also, you can replace the diesel power unit on them with an electic one should it be done sooner.
I find it funny that the DB Br 425 is mentioned as a option even though they are from 1999 and no longer produced. To be fair FLIRT can be higher entrances too we have 550mm and 760mm versions. There are also higher units like some s-bahn trains 430 as an example at 900mm. You could also go for stuff like Mireo from siemens which as the flirt have varients of all sorts.
Both of you make really great points. I think im with bergrnist on this one. While yes I would like to see new trains. It is a better idea to electrify the train lines.
its an interesting debate thats for sure- Caltrains KISS sets have doors at both heights, and seeing how Stadler is well known for its bespoke models based on modular platforms like FLIRT that could also be an option for this line. Ottawas O train is using the diesel FLIRTS on its like 2 for a similar style of service as the NJ line. I do agree about the compatibility thing though, I think North America needs to pick a standard overhead and platform gauge and stick to it but it would be massively costly due to the compatibility with passing freight trains. Tbh either a FLIRT with 2 door heights or a full conversion of the line to high floor would suffice in my opinion, ultimately cost and long term goals would dictate which option IMO. If the region is aiming to standardize its fleets and platforms etc then by all means go nuts with high floor but from an outsiders perspective it does not seem like the state gov is overly invested in reinventing the network and modernizing it the same way Ontario/Metrolinx is with the GO network (unfortunately, though GO is being massively modernized, we are in a contract with Alstom that will likely see electric locos deployed before EMUs since we have such a massive fleet of Bi Level coaches we just rebuilt).
Like others said the FLIRTS are highly customizable. They can be configured to be high floor.
If NJ Transit purchased Stadler FLIRTs, they would most likely be allocated to River Line, since it only allows low-level platform boarding.
The only standard that is more important than platform height is rail gauge. All new rail cars for the New York metro area need to be able to accommodate the standard American platform height. Your other debate points are all worthy of consideration, but I think that building non standard platforms to accommodate rolling stock does not make economic sense. The goal of “run-through” service is a worthy test for any new train design or any new railway construction. Good analysis!
FLIRTS are great. UK uses high floor versions (used on GreaterAnglia and TfW) and some of the British Variants are Bi-Mode or Tri-Mode so they can switch between Diesel, battery and electric (but I image a dual voltage mode could be made
YES! Especially the northeast corridor (sort of like what Caltrain now has)
The problem with more service on the Pascack Valley Line is not the equipment - it's the lack of enough passing sidings. Some of the folks in the norther part of New Jersey NIMBY'd an additional siding out of existence between Emerson and Oradell. That would have allowed reverse trains during rush hour and hence more service.
NJT won’t make any decision that would remotely make sense. It would go against their beliefs!
Would be cool to see them, but I don't think it will ever happen.
Also, I don't think it will fit with NJT's needs. Maybe for new branch lines or something.
Do you think the River line should be electric or stay diesel
The flirt is like the m4 sherman of trains. Lots of variants, lots of countries have em.
They would be great for the Raritan Line west of Raritan
FLIRTS would probably make the most sense on the Princeton Dinky to start, then perhaps see how they were elsewhere on the system.
Absolutely needed although there is another version of it that isn't covered ETR813/810 Class 755🇬🇧. They are dual mode the ideal solution is what Caltrain did Two doors one for the high-level platforms think of Newark Penn Station New Brunswick Somerville Plainfield Roselle Park Secaucus Junction. The second door low platforms Gladstone Raritan Bridge water.
Is there not a high floor version of the FLIRT? I would agree there is zero reason to commit to low floor trains when what should be happening is converting the low floor stations found mostly on the Hoboken division to be high floor.
There's High Floor Flirts in the UK as far as i know
dont think the lord himself could save NJT but great points on both sides
Most of the FLIRTs in Europe are electric. It would be great if NJT electrifies the River Line and imports some FLIRT trains from whatever country has a surplus and/or is retiring them. This way they wouldn't have to make many modifications to the platforms, if any.
True, every morning the River Line is canceling trips due to equipment problems. Time to retire that old equipment that should have lasted longer.
Stadler FLIRTs would look pretty cool on the Northeast Corridor. Also, is it possible for FLIRTs to be third rail-powered? If so, then maybe the Metro-North and/or Long Island railroads could get some as well.
Stadler has built Third rail powered vehicles for the Tyne and Wear Metro iirc, and there's the Flirt related SPATZ (basically the 1000mm narrow gauge version of the Flirt), which also has some third rail and overhead line Bi-mode units for the St-Gervais-Chamonix-Vallorcine railwai in the between France and Switzerland.
@@cyri96 Tyne and Wear Metro is Overhead only, and also not a Flirt. The Class 555 to be used there is from the Stadler Metro platform, as is the (actually third-rail) class 777 on Merseyrail.
@bahnspotterEU ah i mixed them up, my bad
well you guys can not import direct from Europe (buy American Act). Stadler and Siemens produce in the US but only Stadler builds modern european EMU there - Flirt
they build FLIRT in the US, 3 transit agencies used them already + 1 Canadian
@@TheRandCrews though he FLIRTS fro Ottawas O-Train line 2 were actually built in Switzerland and then exported to Canada rather than being built in Stadlers Salt Lake City factory.
I’m not for the Stadler Flirts because of the upcoming Multilevel III EMUs which might ultimately lead to plans for more electrifications
@@rhin0pillz nothing preventing the Arrows or loco hauled comet sets from being replaced by FLIRTs. And I‘d hope for KISS sets as modern double decker EMUs (fairly sure, they could make them 3rd rail compatible for through running onto the LIRR
@@genoobtlp4424 The Arrows are getting replaced by the Multilevel III EMUs later this year and beyond. However I don't think FLIRTs would be a viable replacement or addition since they're better off converting low platform station to high platforms and having already or almost-compatible equipment to meet standards and accommodations.
@@rhin0pillz as I said somewhere else already, the platform height argument is demonstrably crap as Stadler is known for making ANY modifications that are legal, physically possible, ordered and paid for. Hell, they’re pretty much a monopoly in the cog rail segment since there’s basically no standardization to be found. Bi mode High floor? Greater Anglia in the UK; Tri-mode with sleeper cabins? SJ Norge in Norway; multi system has been a thing since the beginning with the SBB order in CH; commuter variant with three doors per car? S-Bahn Hannover, Germany and the new order for RENFE in spain, that mixes high throughput single deckers with high capacity double decker cars.
The only thing that has yet to be ordered is a FLIRT with 3rd rail shoes, but that should be due to a lack of orders in these networks.
Ok, at some point they will reclassify it from a FLIRT to a „tailor made“, but they still can and will produce it.
Basically you say what you want built, they say what they want billed, done.
Half of Bergenists Debate wasnt even about the flirts and more about electrification. Although I dont think NJT should Get Flirts but they should indeed electrify the rest of the hoboken division
If only newark nj could get these trains to replace the older electric cars from 2002
I would also argue that buying Diesel FLIRTs is it a bad idea at the moment. They can be conveted/rebuilt from Diesel to Overhead or 3rd rail electric at a later time. As for the platform issue, that's a much wider issue that needs to be addressed as a separate issue. Unfortunately, the NY Governor has made things more expensive by cancelling congestion pricing, which the money from that would have kept NJ transit's bank account afloat amid costly station and bridge/tunnel projects on the NEC.
@@tannerrobinson5110 afaik, every FLIRT is relatively easily fitted for electric operations as the generators are in the motor car while the transformer/inverter are behind the cab, thus buying a diesel FLIRT wouldn’t be the worst idea. But Stadler will gladly sell you tri mode FLIRTS with catenary, battery and diesel. And if you ask, they’ll probably even fit 3rd rail shoes
Your friend is smart. Listen to him.
I 'm not even a minute at time of typing so this isn't about the video. Can I get a source on Caltrain FLIRT acquisition? I thought they were just going with KISS for electrified sections and legacy F59s for the non electric portions to Gliroy.
They don‘t have any Flirts. The uploader just can‘t distinguish between Stadler product ranges. He called eBart‘s GTWs ”Flirts“ too.
@@bahnspotterEU yeah that makes more sense. I agreed with the opposition argument on this video. As well I think that kind of speaks to the uploader’s knowledge on the subject.
while caltrain doesn't have flirts (and e-Bart also isn't Flirts), there will still be Flirts in California, just at the other end of the state as one of the Metrolink lines in San Bernardino will recieve Hydrogen powered Flirts
Better yet, NJT could order some of the new battery-electric or hydrogen fuel cell FLIRTs! This would save NJT the cost of diesel fuel AND electrification.
Flirts are for foamers and as mentioned, are not compatibles with existing trains in the NYC area, and don’t allow for level. Hoarding.
PVL should elevate the line and link to the PATH network
Stadler, Siemens, Alstom, Hitachi all have manufacturing in the US ... time for some healthy competition
Yo
(also Caltrain has KISSes, not FLIRTs)
Hello, I'm from Slovenia. Slovenian railways recently bought 25 diesel flirts, 25 flirts 4 and 10 kiss-es. To be honest these trains are verry bad from a passanger view, the doors allways broke, bad qouality seats that are also not comfortable, there is also loud and squiky sound when train is going into the turn. And design of cabin is simplu bad, the PZB switches are that far away that a train driver almost must stand to press it.
Trust me all Flirts suck they just have a huge fan base that doesn’t want to admit that they are bad.
Nice video. It would be interesting to see Stadler FLIRTS on NJ Transit.
The against argument is VERY STRONG 😅
Yes, but the Caltrain variant.
NJ Transit & LIRR
I don’t think this would help NJT they already are spending so much money and time on the new nec bridge that new trains are there last thing to worry about as the trains they have are good enough
Acually the ones on bart on are called stadler gtws🤓
High boarding platforms suck.
FLIRTs could be high floor and can be battery or electric...
Do all of the above
Nope, not all.
i dont like your opinion 2:46
as someone, who lives in a City, where Flirt EMUs are being used as S-Bahn and RegioTrains, the FLIRTs are fukcing awesome, very comfortable and the best thing the US gets on their tracks right now!!!
we need those on the MBTA
European here the FLIRT is a 20 year old design that absolutely sucks. I try to avoid Stadler vehicles if possible because almost all other trains are better. The US has really good vehicles most of them are in my opinion actually better than the trains in Europe. The problem is more with the service and frequency. NJT should get something like the M8 trains to replace the arrows and put up wires for them on other lines. Because a Flirt wouldn’t make NJT a bit better it would only make it worse.
bergenist opinion is stupid
3:31
America needs lighter locomotives and more electrification. And using the Bombardier bilevel cars for regional transit. NJTransit already has a derivate of a German Bombardier EMU locomotive. I have a strong opinion for being an outsider, I traveled with a couple of US and Canadian trains already and seen how slow they are and how fast the German ICE and other slower trains picks up speed, there should be more done. I vote yes: Stadler Flirts belong into NJ Transit's Fleet.
NJT should have them. I'm all for modernization!
Standardize. Electric.
That blue arriva train filmed by trainsby m isnt a flirt its a wink the wink is a Bmu so it runs on overhead power and diesel
Very valid arguments. Electrification costs over 1.2 million per mile. NJ Transit stations are a mix of low level, some with mini highs, and some high level platforms spaced in between. Rail equipment that can handle both types of platforms are needed. Of the 43 years I worked as a conductor, 26 years were with NJ Transit. It would be nice if all the stations were high platform but conversion costs a lot of money and certain stations on the M&E are listed as historical. It's nice that you make videos such as this but since neither of you worked in commuter rail service you don't understand the operating aspect.😎🚂🚃🚃🚃✝