Cloudspire Review - 50% Genius, 70% Disaster
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- čas přidán 4. 05. 2020
- #boardgames #tabletop #cloudspire
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![CLOUDSPIRE [2] - Неограненный алмаз. Обзор настольной игры "Облачный Шпиль", первое впечатление](/img/n.gif)
Went crosseyed at 10:37. Great video though. Thank you. Oh man! That's me that was back from lunch, yay! I'm a celebrity now.
That's when I gave a thumbs up and thought 'Thank you for explaining why I will never play this game.' It had a really cool table presence when I saw it at PAX Unplugged and I almost bought it then. Dodged a bullet for sure.
If someone is explaining the rules like that at a game night, just give him some cookies to put him on mute, then watch a well structured and coherent presentation on CZcams instead (like this: czcams.com/video/AVi2Do-g_cQ/video.html). This game is not simple, nor is it overly complex and I can enjoy it (a lot) with my 8 years old with just a little bit of help.
@@Ambadji Thing is, I did that when I was thinking of backing this. I like heavy games, and this still looks clunky as all hell to me.
@@leeprice133 The basics are pretty straightforward. Yes, from time to time you will need to search on BGG for a particular situation that brings some questioning, but I think it's so much worth the time and effort. It's a unique experience and IMO, it's 100% brilliant.
According to the expantion kickstarter they are clearing up problems people had with the rule book the first time, and their going make in more accessible.
4:50 "Forget about ninjas for a second."
FALSE: You should never forget about ninjas. That's how they kill you.
So size of playmats will from now on be measured in Elaines, and rules complexity in broken Elaines?
Yes.
Cloudspire is an outstanding solo experience as long as you are willing to invest the time to let the ruleset sink in. The solo scenarios are consistently diverse and sharp. I have not (and probably will never) try to teach it. Only chance I see in playing it competitively is loaning it to someone so they can solo for awhile first.
How long is the solo modes? Do you still find yourself playing?
This has a serious Cones of Dunshire quality to it.
Haha i came to the comments to write exactly that
I now feel good about my first rule when getting a game: If it looks like a mess on the table I stay off.
This is way too many components and way too many things, ideas, rules,... Thank you for the review, it was enlightening and funny!
"For those of us over 30"
Dude that's like DotA's main demographic.
Exact same thoughts.
Most MOBA players are over 30 now.
For real Kefka, who do you know below the age... lets say, 25 who actually plays DotA?
@@jonlocke7112 I still play Dota & Im 24.
Average age of LoL players is supposed to be 26/27. Compare it to a certain... how Efka called it, "Fartnight"?... demographics.
Yup. I'm 34 and still dabble in League from time to time.
SOLD! Just never with another human being. Self inflicted masochism only.
I'll sell you mine. I was excited to back this after Too Many Bones, which I like. But Cloudspire has only made it to the table once.
When you've had a clumsy friend ruin a game no matter how many times you remind the group "no drinks on the table", you'll appreciate an indestructible game.
Totally man. Me and my mates drink lots of beer playing Zombicide Undead or Alive. And I’m afraid it’s getting worse for wear due to spillage.
He's called 'Joust' because he's an ostrich, from the video game Joust. Though, those ones flew.
That really only explains why they thought it was a good idea, not why it was a good idea.
@Brian Bouton Ah! That actually makes a bit of sense.
Not really. They kind of hopped and flapped for about 2 seconds.
I think it is a absolutely brilliant solo/co-op design. Competitive we have handled two ways. 1 - drafting the events. We draw the number of players +1 and then in turn order each player discards an event. 2 - leaving out the event phase completely.
The event draft gives everyone a sense of control as each person can remove the event that would mess with them the most. Playing without the events is fine too but it feels like you are leaving out an intended part of the game.
I find this idea intriguing. I rather like some if not most events, and I like the idea of having events in the game, so granting a bit of control over which events get played is a nice compromise.
I think Joust is a reference to the ancient arcade game, of the same name, where you're on the back of like... an ostrich flying around to try and out fly and joust someone else. I don't know WHY it's in this game, but... it is?
I feel like I learned "why" but still don't know why.
@@MrOpellulo Joust was great. :P
If Crystal Clans had had lots of neoprene and poker chips and the air of exclusivity, it'd have been a hit.
"Forget abour ninjas for a second."
This is hard since I'm always thinking about ninjas.
Hey, me too! Why are you constantly thinking about ninja's?
Copeteles I imagine it’s because they’re always just outside of your vision cone. Always.
I'd like to say that I'd love to meet a ninja, but that's probably not the best Idea..
I never get tired of Efka explaining something and then it cutting away to a close in shot of Elaine's hand moving a component. Makes me laugh at my confusion every time.
Awesome, funny, and informative video! One small bit of feedback in case it's useful: while I loved the background music and thought it set the mood really well and made the video even more dynamic, there were two times that I found it loud and distracting compared to your voice (~14:00 - 14:30 and ~27:15; I think it might even be the same portion of the same track). Keep up the terrific work.
The heroes are named their actual names and when they die they stay dead meaning the person with the name Darb is dead, the minion chips are labeled the type of Unit eg. joust, it isn't the name of a character it is the title of that position in the heirs' military hence you get them back once they die, and if you look closely there is a small penguin riding the ostrich.
Lil Jajejiju Yeah, that’s a whoopsie.
3:02 what you get when you combine Rocket Raccoon and Groot.
This is a fantastic brainburner of a quarantine game. I get slaughtered over two hours, but I then think about what I will try next time all day long. It is true that never will I ever go beyond scratching the surface of this beast. But I'm so okay with that that I just bought all of the expansion material. Now I will have even more surface to scratch!
I've been trying so hard to figure out what this game is between rules breakdowns I couldn't properly keep up with + vague positive reports on the solo mode + the fact that I know I love the tactile candy of all the heavy chips and hexaprenes
this and the twitch archive have been very helpful! thank you~
its almost as if all those "promoted kickstarter reviews" aren't actually objective
@@nohandle54 Can you show us the "promoted reviews" from the Kickstarter you are talking about? Because here is the original kickstarter: www.kickstarter.com/projects/chiptheorygames/cloudspire
Take this review for instance (which I haven't watched yet to completion). I assume it is mostly negative/mediocre from the title. I really doubt it is promoted (does NPI even do promoted reviews?): first, it dropped after their 2nd kickstarter, second. it is largely negative (or will have a large negative component); third, the only "promotion" is probably being provided with a version of the game the reviewer would not buy in order to review (neoprene mat, minis, etc.). The price of the base game alone, makes this game very niche even among boardgamers.
Other kickstarters do indeed what you say, but it seems a bit unfair to lump this with them.
We love this Game, behause we play it with the right people. The start is hard to learn, but every time we have such a blast! And because we are Germans🤪
Elaine's deranged laughing at overcooked game rules is something I've experienced too.
Specifically, a friend and I were struggling through our first play of Tekhenu: Obelisk of the Sun, a dice drafting game where the pips of the dice, the color of the dice, and the position and subposition of the dice all affect the effect triggered by drafting it. And each action type is its own mini-game with its own god and its own little section of the board dedicated to it, and we were playing the whole game with the rulebook open. And finally we got to a bit of dialogue that sounded like this:
M: "And now I get the pillar tile effect for placing the pillar tile"
F: *scanning the rulebook* "You can't do that"
M: "Didn't I take the die from the right place to invoke Ra?"
F: *scanning the rulebook* "Yeah..."
M: "And I spent the scribe to set the die to the right value to take the tile I wanted"
F: *scanning the rulebook* "Mhmm..."
M: "And I paid the correct value in marble and granite"
F: *scanning the rulebook* "Sure did."
M: "And I positioned and oriented it according to the rules"
F: *squinting down at the rulebook* "Yep."
M: "So why don't I get the effect on the tile?"
F: *looking up sheepishly from the rulebook* "Because it isn't the right time of day."
Will you guys do a video on Guards of Atlantis 2 when it comes out?
This is probably one of the best PvP games I've ever played and play regularly. You DO get wayyy more out of it if you invest time in it instead of bringing it out casually.
Would you recommend the 4 players pvp?
@@ZuluagaSD I'd recommend TRYING it but I don't think I would do it regularly. It can get very long and very confusing so many people on the board. But it can help give you kind of a crash course in all of the units in the game which can help in the future. 1v1 is my personal favorite and maybe the occasional 3 player PvP.
@@DCAMM720 I see, thanks a lot for the answer
yeah i have gotten the latest version recently, still all valid points
but i have bought it purely for solo, there's no way even with the most dedicated board game group that i would consider teaching it
but the solo mode is superior, its a massive time sink so you have to be that kind of type but man its such a great solo mode to get into
I was really anxious at the start of the video because i backed an all in pledge of this game based on my dedication to solo and coop games. I'm really glad it ended the way it did. Back to being all fuzzy and warm inside.
Totally unrelated but what kind of camera do you use? Your video quality is completely amazing. (Content is fantastic too!)
I would like to have some neoprene tiles for my descent 2ed. Cardboard doesn't life that long when you play constantly and you have to squeeze tiles together.
Excellent excellent review. You really helped highlight the cons of this expensive board game by going more in depth instead of saying "too many rules". I haven't ever been much of a solo gamer so I think I might have to pass on this one.
2:04 *Stretch goal: Pixie Dream Girl
6:46 / 9:43 YuGiOh in a nutshell. Exceptions: The Game!
13:05 Medic...
17:01 "Sir sir sir... sir... sir... WE ARE DISNEY. WE HAVE IT UNDER CONTROL."
19:01 *MEDIC!*
19:32 70% Disaster/30% Correct Rules, 50% Genius/49% Kickstarter Peer-Pressured Neoprene/1% Ooo piece of candy...
22:16 PREACH! 👏🏾
25:28 COUGH Kickstarter peer pressure COUGH
26:26 COUGH Kickstarter-based economic market culture COUGH... friggin covid...
I’m excited for my copy
Sterling work. Super glad to back the Patreon!
Definitely watch to the end, as some of the things that are bagged on at the start end up being recommended buys. I can't wait for my copy to arrive. I like the differing opinions though. Keep up the good work NPI.
Sounds like this game adopted every facet of MOBAs--including the 100 hours of playtime you need to begin understanding and appreciating their mechanisms.
It’s one of the best solo puzzle games I have ever played. Never played it PvP but with the solo and coop missions alone I might never even want to play it PvP. Regarding the event deck: the rules state specifically that you do not have to use it at all and it is not even recommended for newbies. Also I would teach the game to someone in coop and once they are comfortable with it would propose to play it PvP if they’d like to. Also I watch you guys for years now and enjoy every episode and this is the first time I ever felt that we are on a similar page and not opposite sides of the galaxy when it comes to a review 😉
@19:20 I think my dad used to own that exact model radio on the shelf on the right there.
Great video. I hope you guys make it to 4/3 of your goal soon. You deserve it.
I picked up a used bundle of EVERYTHING Cloudspire late last year and dove in. I just rewatched and laughed at the "I can't believe I remember all of this" line because I know all of that stuff you said by heart. Over 50 hours of play logged and I still have 3 more factions to learn. To solo players wondering if there is enough content to make it worth buying... Ha, yes. Right now, I'm playing 1v1 solo, playing pairs of factions against each other just to learn them better. And it's a blast.
“I had to remind her, that’s her job.” I can totally relate to that. 🤣 Another great review I can trust. Thank you.
Were those nails space wolf grey or Vallejo gray? 🤔🤔🤔
Gotta say I love this game, my whole playgroup loves this game and we have only played it competitive. 1v1 shines and I’ll never touch 2v2 again (too long and traffic jams mid field made the game stall) . Also we have never played it with the event deck (or event phase) I believe the rules say not to when you learn the game and we just stuck with that. Also I have never thought the plastic spires were needed (don’t have them) as the spires use different color chips and stand out on their own.
We like the event phase sometimes its really funny :)
So, those other guys from GB that review board games have a pear for comparisons and you have Elaine? Are we gonna hear the phrase "this game's board is 2 Elaines long" anytime soon?
The real question: How many Standard Reference Pears™ is an Elaine?
@@bherring7278 Inversely, how many reference Elaine's is a pear? :)
Forkknife! lol
I've loved both board and video games since I was a kid, when the Atari 2600 was the emperor of consoles and TSR made such great games as The Awful Green Things from Outer Space as well as D&D. I've skipped MOBAs as even my former fellow World of Tank players made the community in them sound absolutely dreadful, but I know what they are!
I love complicated tactical games; my favorite game today is still Star Fleet Battles, a game that frightens people away with its rules. This sounds like something I'd at least give a try, but kind of glad I didn't back it. Great video!
Your videos are always excellent, but I just felt like commenting that this was an exceptionally informative and funny script.
Excellent game and review. I do find it funny that now both NPI and SU&SD call out Chip Theory on having these over-produced games when both channels have become known for doing the same thing to their reviews. And I mean that in a good way, I'm a fan of all 3!
Solo and Co-op are definitely the "easiest" way to play this game, I can only dream of finding a game group that would be interested in really diving deep here.
The rule book is a bit of a slog, really have high hopes for the re-print clarifying and shortening the FAQ.
Great job as always.
I hope you guys are backing overbattle can't wait to hear your review of that crazy game.
I've played MMORPGs forever and recently got into board games. This game was not hard to learn. It is so much fun learning about the factions and how different they are from one another.
It is so weird to see people complain about learning your faction / character, especially in a PvP scenario. Imagine this, someone new to PvP in an MMORPG complains that they died to a player playing a different class. Then they complain that they shouldn't have to learn how to fight against that class.
What did I just listen to? I've seen so many comments about that complaint as well, not just the comment section in this video. I mean no disrespect to anyone here but is this a normal thing for board gamers out here? That you don't want to learn your character / faction?
I doubt it's that, and more that if a game is not elegant. People don't like usually board games with finnicky stuff. Also, while there are very HC board gamers, it's a hobby where you'll try a lot of different games. Imagine changing MMORPGs every week - it doesn't quite work the same. Despite that, there are people who enjoy these games, and that can often be reflected in the board game geek score for example
One Elaine, Is this a new empirical measurement what is the actual length of one Elaine. I assume somewhere between a yard and a Rod, Lug, Pole or Perch
Oh, least I forget - congrats on scoring the podium in the Golden Geek Awards! :) I mean, there is a lot of controversy around this year's edition, but I suppose this one category can be considered safe ^^'
To back or not to back Cloudspire. Well I ended up backing it. Pretty postitive I will end up liking it, but see where you are coming from in your review. Worst case I have a nice playmate to play other games on!
I’m a huge CTG fanboy and I still adored this review - that’s how awesome you guys are.
You had me at "Fork-knife - a game About Ninjas". :D
I love the games that chip theory produces....... I have this game. But for some reason it scares me and every time I walk passed it in the garage it taunts me like a big school bully. I'm still yet to bring it to the table.
Plus side, if I wet myself in fear, the components will be okay.
Just set aside some time and start a solo scenario, you won't be disappointed.
This game is currently set up on my table for the first solo scenario. I assume it will take 8 hours as I struggle to get the rules down. 8.5 now. Timely upload NPI, timely upload.
Do they think keem is the opposite of meek? Is that how things work now? I like the thinking of kickstarters as buying into collective dreams though - in some cases it feels like the delayed disappointment is worth the investment alone.
Hows this vs Skytear - similar themed names, similar games, similar release time
Honestly Cloudspire (or any chip theory "game") is a debt contract wrappen in 6 layers of confusing rules onion. I
I enjoyed this game - played through much of the solo scenarios, played 2, 3 & 4 player. 4 was too many, but a good experience. Solo was fine, finished all the scenarios. The rules were noodly no doubt, but I used play nothing but Advanced Squad Leader. I rather miss that game all the time and Cloudspire helped for a year or so. The components are gorgeous and the game looks amazing on the table.
This might just be the greatest video review of a board game I've ever seen. I need more of this in my life.
"Hey, you like MOBAs? Well now you can calculate everything about a MOBA that's usually done with coding! For 1 player with 12 referees, Ages 3+"
I don't know if you saw burncycle kick starter, it was neoprene on neoprene, on neoprene lol.
I'm glad to hear that the solo/coop aspect is strong because thats what I bought it for.
Having said that, I've had it for months and haven't set myself to learning it yet because .. yeah .. one day though
Hope you learned it and enjoyed it!!!
Why would you put the spire upgrade chips under the plastic spire instead of under the spire chip on top of the spire?
I mean, do what you like! There's no board game police, enjoy yourself.
@@NoPunIncluded wait, if there is no board game police who stopped and frisked me for improper use of a meeple the other day
Are there boxes smaller than the game? How do they fit?
Indestructible is a great attribute to have for a game one plans on keeping.
If you want a competitive MOBA board game playable in an hour, my brother and I have become totally consumed by Skytear by first time designers PvPgeeks. We've even started a dedicated podcast after just 4 weeks of playing. It's an absolute peach!!
Efka: 1:20
Me: *mini heartattack*
Omg your hilarious! I luv this channel. Play Hoplomachus instead, its actually good.
“A game about ninjas.” Thank you for this.
The competitive mode isn't for everyone, but for our group, it's a solid 9/10. We haven't had this much fun with a combat focused game since Forbidden Stars. If you're into MOBA's and complex board games, this is a must buy. Just know that the free-for-all mode is trash on all levels (3-4 players) and just stick to 1v1 or 2v2.
Wow, Efka. I own Cloudspire and I share your thoughts exactly. Thank you for the review.
I think i know how this happened - kickstarter bonus goals. "If you fund this to super extreme level, we'll add seven hundred extra rules!"
Immediately made sure to like the video after that short clip of Elaine xD
the script for this one is very cleverly written. I approve
I love Elaine's response, I couldn't stop laughing!!!!
LMAO this Foknife Joke was golden :D
This was a great review, as usual. Some thoughts on it, from the view of someone who has been considering picking this up:
1. The bit about the game's extreme complexity and number of little rules is spot on. I dont even need to play it, to have known that before even watching this. I'm quite a fan of CTG's other big game, Too Many Bones (I have all of the content so far and think it's absolutely worth the investment). And that game has SO FREAKING MANY of those small bits jammed in there. Every character has a big reference sheet, showing all those individual icons that can appear on their dice, and all characters have entirely DIFFERENT dice, and they all have LOTS of dice, and each icon needs explaining... even experienced players will be referring to the reference sheets OFTEN. It's the same with enemy abilities. This is NOT a game for people that prefer streamlined experiences. Also it takes 5 million years to set up.
2. Going along with that, I cant imagine playing TMB as anything other than a solo experience (which is what I do, as a purely solo gamer). Reason being, with so many little bits, confusion surely abounds if having to deal with and communicate with other players. And the idea of playing a CTG game COMPETITIVELY just baffles me.
3. It really does look like something that should have been a purely co-op or solo experience, like TMB is. In fact, that's one of the reasons why I've been unsure on it. TMB works so well because ALL of the focus is on solo/co-op. But when you divide things instead of focusing, stuff can get weird. Heck, the fact that the event deck is entirely missing outside of competitive mode bothers me. It really always just bugs me, if there's components in the game that will never get used because I'm not playing the "main" mode due to only playing solo.
4. Also going along with that, the automated aspects just further the idea that it should have been solo/co-op focused. I dont play multiplayer games, but yeah, I can imagine that having auto bits probably feels very strange in competitive play. Wheras when I'm playing solo, automated opponents are the whole bloody point (and TMB pulls it off very well indeed). As a solo player, I doubt I'd find the "auto phase" to be at all tiresome or boring. Usually it's the opposite, it's the tense phase of the game, like "Hoboy, it's the enemy turn... time to see how much they wreck me, will I make it through?" And I found that TMB did that extra well due to how hard it is. If individual enemies in a game are kinda weak, just pushovers, it's less exciting. But in TMB it's like "Okay, let's see... this dragon blows up the universe every time it breathes, and it summons an army of demon clowns that shoot lasers if you hit it". I'd expect Cloudspire to be very similar in that aspect.
5. CTG's components are indeed indestructible. And the tactile element is just amazing. One of the two biggest things that bothers me with this hobby is the prevalence of little cardboard tokens. They're not very satisfying, and are often hard to just pick up at all. Not so with a CTG game. All the chips and stuff are just amazing. And yeah, the "upgraded" chips just make things even better. I was surprised by just how much of an improvement that was. But, it also means that these games are bloody expensive. Only buy if you think you'll be playing it often, and really sticking with it.
6. The fact that it's hard to buy the bloody thing is... well, that's the OTHER big thing that bugs me with this hobby. Limited print runs. Haaaaaaaaaate that. I have numerous hobbies, and board gaming is the only one where this sort of issue presents itself.
7. The rulebook in TMB was kinda crap. I'm guessing that the one in Cloudspire probably isnt any better. Which is very odd, because the "main" rules are very well done and just plain make sense... once you get through that bizarre labyrinth of a rulebook, all those rules are real easy to remember. And the reference sheets are also well done, so.... why is the rulebook such a mess? Seriously, I resorted to CZcams to learn much of it. Reminded me of Mage Knight's equally annoying rulebook.
8. Did I mention that setup takes forever? Cloudspire looks like it isnt far from TMB in that aspect. Though from what I see in the video, it DOESNT have the 50 dice trays that need to be setup.
Likely I will end up picking this up.... when I can freaking find a copy. Though, TMB's new expansion definitely comes first. Really looking forward to that.
Extremely good review.
I was just about to put in an order for the core set when I saw Elaines reaction...
A GAME LIKE FORK KNIFE, i liked the video instantly after i saw that moment
My entire experience watching rules explanation: 'wait. What?'
Thank you for your sacrifice!
2:03 I mean I saw Elaine fit herself like a cat inside a Gloomhaven's box, thus it's not surprising 😂
Oh my goodness your dog.
Literally how I feel every day.
Wow. I started watchin' and was already planning a comment like "The biggest mistake this (great puzzle solo/coop) game made is: published as a competetive game" and that was Efkas conclusion. You are my men, Efka. I would add to the title "50% Genius, 70% Disaster, 100% Solo-Fun"
I really like the competitive game. But, I suspect we're not as worried about having to know all the abilities of all the factions in order to play. We just grab a faction and figure out how they play as we go.
Well done review as usual but I gotta say I love it!
I'm both intrigued and frightened.
Cloudspire is the Mage Knight of Boardgames moba Games. Byzantine rules you either love or hate. I am in the love camp :)
Concur, and I find the rules easy to understand as well. Likely based on personal experience in this type of genre.
I’m guessing the designer lives in a high flood risk area. Atlantis maybe?
The actual reason they give is more towards durability, tactile feel, and the reduce aspect of environmentalism.
While playing in a flood would likely never happen, drink spills are all too common and can ruin many games. Similarly extended playtime leads to wear and eventual damage on weaker components (especially with cardboard boards and chits) leading to the need to get replacements and possibly even throwing the hole game out.
Something like TMB or CS feels like a game that will last a lifetime at the least.
I gasped when you threw it in the tub.
That part caused me to pass out.
The review title doesn't do the review justice. Other than the bit about the naming of the chips, the rest of it jibes (though wargames are full of these rules and interactions), warts and all.
(Spirit Island's FAQ is very large too at this point. I think when you have a puzzle-based approach with a lot of variable player powers, you end up with a lot of complexity. Unlike Spirit Island, the solo mode is scenario-based so you the puzzle is a little more fixed than in that game.)
I can't imagine trying to teach this game competitively first to a board gamer who doesn't war game. In many ways, the tutorials are like doing a crossword puzzle (not like a chess puzzle), and you learn about how the factions work. It's still a bit much for most but luckily the cost of the game will turn people off.
Also lucky is if the game isn't for you, enough people do like it you can sell your copy and not lose money. That's where overproduction really helps as they know there is no wear and tear.
I m in search of a new apartment. It should be at least 30 square Elaines.
Good video title
Waterproof! The Next Evolution for tabletops and drinking afthernoon
I just want to say that people consider this game complicated but for me and my gaming group it just clicked! So many strategies and so much diversity of troops it's really nice. It has a slow paced gameplay that speeds up ....sooo we like it very much and the laughs we got from the world theme and nasty moves! I dont get the NPI anti kickstarter spree tho... i just cant get my head over playing something like Pipeline (a game about pipes) over Cloudspire or even Tainted Grail... I respect opinions but I just can't understand... well always a plesure to watch and disagree too haha Cheers!
P.S: I still cannot get over the "Dissapointment Tainted Grail" Slowly Turning in a fanboy I quess but I love boardgames so what to do...
And my GF usually spills wine over some of our games so Cloudspire Waterproof helps A LOT... my only grudge is that I dont have Too many Bones (hard to get in my Eastern Europe +Price)
My God man. If you like Cloudspire you will LOVE Too Many Bones. Do whatever it takes but you must get it.
"Fork knife!" LOL.
Is this part of the Dunshire universe?
"The competitive mode is an exercise in frustration"
I see the captured the essence of MOBAs
This had me laughing - thank you!
the poker chips are beatiful
We learned that game in about 1:30h...it is not that difficult :)