Repertoire: The BEST Schoenberg Gurrelieder
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- čas přidán 13. 12. 2020
- Here is it, the Titanic of classical music, and like that ill-fated cruise ship, this choral/orchestral behemoth usually sinks spectacularly in performance, leaving few survivors. Nevertheless, it has been recorded a surprising number of times despite being almost impossible to pull off successfully. Here are the best (and some of the dullest) versions available of one of the most fascinating and frustrating works in the entire repertoire.gbhgy,k
- Hudba
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This may be the funniest review you've ever done of a work I dearly love and have known well for over 50 years.
This is one of very few channels that never irritates me. Never. It is always interesting and Dave is so funny. I learn a lot, it gives me many laughs and it always makes me in a good mood. If I'm down, a video with Dave always makes me feel better. Thanks a lot!👍
You are funny as hell, my friend. You remind me of the guys I grew up with in the NYC area. Thanks for making my day. Now I'll go see which recordings of Gurrelieder I own and consider one more from your recommended list.
There IS a hidden gem in the Gurrelieder discography: a much underrated recording by Herbert Kegel and East-German forces on Berlin classics.
No, it's not nearly "big" enough.
I agree - I really like Kegel's performance of Gurrelieder (and of much else).
@@DavesClassicalGuide The Dresdner Philharmonie, augmented with members of the Leipzig RSO, with three choirs (Radio Choirs Leipzig & Berlin, Prager Männerchor), recorded with enormous dynamics. Not big enough??
YES! I wholeheartedly agree-the beauty and emotion in the soprano singing, in particular.
For goodness sake, David. If you don't like the work, why bother to do a video on your website. I personally think it one of the most fabulous pieces ever written, and the final chorus is out of this world
I will tell you why:
1. Notwithstanding its problems, I do like it, and nothing I said suggests that I don't.
2. I think it's important that listeners understand that because something is a "classic," that doesn't mean that they have to like it or that it should be uncritically worshipped. Nothing is perfect.
3. I have been listening to this work for decades, have (as you can see) tons of recordings of it, and whether I like it or not has nothing to do with my ability to understand it or say something useful about the work or its recordings.
4. If my opinion is a minority one (it's not, actually) or is controversial, that's healthy.
5. If my opinion offends some who love it, that's healthy too. You needed a jolt. How does the fact that you love it preclude me from offering a different viewpoint? That's ridiculous.
@@DavesClassicalGuideexactly!!!
I think I own five Gurrelieders and I love it. Best German love music since Tristan. Gorgeous. Every bar beginning to end despite the stylistic inconsistency. The only Schoenberg piece I do love.
Wow! Thank you David! I have been TRYING to like this for years... in several different recorded versions ( which I now don't have! ) phew! Now I can give up with a clear conscience!!!!
Sure. You never need to worry about spending your time on music you like better!
I now understand the hallmark of a Hurwitz recommeded performance, in a word, exciting. I hadn't really listened to the Blomstedt SFO Sibelius until his recommendation, and they are. I've also enjoyed the Jansons Bartok Concerto for Orchestra just today, and a heap of other things bought cheaply. I notice these chats are now feaatured on music industry adverts. I particularly like the random choice in repertoire, and my listening has widened as a result, for instance the Kocsis/de Waart Rachmaninov concertos. So a bright light in a black year. Cheers.
I'm glad you mentioned Ferencsik. It has a great sense of occasion and quite some soloists.
This is by far the most funny description of Gurrelieder I have ever come across.
This December 2024 the Los Angeles Philharmonic will do two performance of Gurrelieder. I hope to attend the second on Sunday afternoon. I’m looking forward to it. I’ve never heard a live Gurrelieder - when the LA Philharmonic last scheduled it with Gustavo Dudamel it was canceled due to Covid-19. Wish us luck this time.
I have always owned the Ozawa's version...and no one else!
I just discovered your channel, really enjoyed the Mahler symphony recording review videos I viewed! BUT...as you admit, you do NOT get this piece. The text by Jens Peter Jacobsen, translated into German from the original Danish, is a masterpiece in symbolism, similar to the text of Pelléas and Mélisande. It's intentionally suggestive and ethereal, not like a story you'd find in a Verdi opera, which seems to be what your were expecting. I think Scheonberg's music is a great fit for the text, building, fading, rising again, like huge waves or the tide, with fantastic use of leitmotivs. You have to approach it with the right mindset, maybe similar to how you'd approach a performance of Parsifal, with patience and some reverence, and (assuming the performance is good) it really pays off.
Except for its somewhat flat and muddy sound quality, I personally LOVE the Boulez recording, because all of the soloists are fantastic and because Boulez profoundly understands the work. All the characters are themselves symbols/architypes. The Narr and the Bauer are not meant to be fleshed-out humans with full ranges of emotions and backstories. They are static representations, like statues on the exterior of a gothic cathedral. The lovers are a bit more than that, but really they are only there to express the complex, bitter bliss of love, and in the case Waldemar in part three, pathos leading to insanity. There is a note of acceptance in Waldemar's last aria, and the ending narration and final chorus pull as away to a higher view, to see that life goes on, and how beautiful life and the world can be despite the horrendous pain we sometimes go through. For me, it is one of the greatest and most cathartic moments in music.
And god, I HATE the Ozawa recording, mostly because of McCracken and Klemperer. I don't know his earlier work, but in this recording McCracken is a brutal hack of a tenor with no sensitivity and a rough tone much better suited to The Music Man or at best Carmina Burana. Klemperer's voice is so weak he needs to be mic'd, and he makes zero attempt to actually follow the Sprechstimme notation. It is god awful schmaltz that makes me cringe. Everyone, please have some brandy or an edible, sit with a good translation in hand, and give the Boulez recording a good listen.
I never said I don't "get" it. I said the piece has issues, and so it does. You spend all of your time discussing the meaning of the text. My issues are with the music. But never mind; I certainly respect your point of view and if it works for you, then that's great.
Ahh... Gurrelieder. I first heard the opening 10 ins or so at a demonstration when I was 14 - it 'blew' me away with its intertwined textures. It was the Boulez recording! I've loved it, all of it, ever since (with Chailly, that is) but I have to agree.. it's a work with problems and the sheer ensemble size promises more than it delivers - nevertheless it's one of my favourites - that didn't stop me laughing alongside the hilarious dry wit of the explanation of the work, nor the chosen recordings. Reviews such as this I like - because they challenge one - in a nice way!
You gave me a good laugh today. I have the Boulez on vinyl, but I saw Jesse Norman do it at the proms. When was that?! Hilarious!!
I grew up with the Kubelik, but as soon as a friend played the Ozawa, I knew I had to have it.
Many, many decades ago I read a review of the Ozawa recording in one of the old HiFi magazines. While praising the recording the reviewer went on to say that the concert done at Tanglewood in 1974 with pretty much the same forces was superior. He mentioned that the orchestra has a tape recording of that Tanglewood performance and he wished that this recording would be released. I share that wish as I was a student at Tanglewood that year and was at this concert and was blown away. The piece was new to me so I really didn't have anything else to compare it with though. I'm going to wait only a couple of more decades for that recording to be released and if it isn't then I'll get the recording with your coughing contribution.
A friend told me I needed to discover this piece only a few days before your video. I’m glad I watched it and got your recommendations, but I found Cristian Theilemann’s brand new recording with Dresden and some heavy hitters including Christa Mayer and Franz Grundheber. I don’t know the work well enough yet to comment on pacing, but great transparency and color from the orchestra
Great talk Dave (as always). spot on about the quality of the work I heard Ozawa's live performance when he did it at Carnegie Hall (about 1981-82??). I trust you heard it (and coughed) when recorded in Boston?
I heard Stokowski do it with the Philadelphia Orchestra in 1960, and I will simply never forget the experience.
I agree - it isn't Schoenberg's best music, but it really does have its moments. I NEVER listen to the whole thing in one go except in concert. I absolutely love the final chorus for the sunrise - the quieter parts in the middle of it remind me of the scores to Esther Williams flicks that were written decades later. And I love all of Part I - to me, it's no droopier than Winterreise or most other Romantic song cycles. Droopiness is kind of the inevitable song cycle destination.
Werner Klemperer is truly wonderful in the speaking part on the Ozawa recording. It's not his fault I keep expecting him to say "Hogan, what is the meaning of this?!" But I just can't listen to it with a straight face. The new generation has never seen "Hogan's Heroes", so they have a chance at appreciating it on its own merits.
I remember sitting in my grandmother's living room, and the whole extended family watched the Evening at Symphony broadcast of that concert. We turned it on just after the music had started, and we had no idea what we were listening to. None of us guessed correctly. We turned it off at the end of Part I because - reasons. I would have kept listening, but I was a kid, and I didn't get to touch the dial (no remote back then).
I agree with you about the Sinopoli recording, decadent, yes, over romantic, yes, but not too exciting. This is my only version on cd (I have the Ozawa on Lp and it is a Gem), looking for another one to add to my already overflowed collection of cds. (I may have a problem!) Have you heard the Mehta version with the Israel Philharmonic on Helicon? Any comments?
An orchestral player I know tells me that you need the patience of a Saint to play it and the stoicism of God to listen to it.
The Los Angeles Philharmonic had scheduled several performances of Gurrelieder to be conducted by Gustavo Dudamel. I was looking forward to hearing live this Gurrelieder. At the same time there was to be a production of Pelleas et Melisande across the way at LA Opera to be conducted by James Conlon. But both and elsewhere around Los Angeles there were productions of The Winter's Tale and The Grand Duke. But all were canceled because of Covid19 two years ago this month.
Your comments remind me of something I heard years ago during a Met Opera broadcast intermission.
Alan Wagner admitted that although he tried, really tried, to like Gurrelieder, but he just couldn't.
I heard it live at the Proms about twenty years ago, and as I recall, it was pretty enthralling! Can't remember who conducted, but it didn't drag.
Hi David! I love the Stokowski- you can't get that authentic romanticism in the post WWII era. Dika Newlin ( in her wonderful memoir 'Schoenberg Remembered') writes " GL remains ...utterly cosmic music, even to the very iron chains." Interestingly, she also mentions that Schoenberg described how he used " each instrument only as long as it expressed the mood he wanted, changing color sometimes in the middle of a measure". Newlin describes how this produces a "somewhat choppy effect in the individual choirs of strings, wind and brass, but ..the general ensemble he felt sounded 'really fine!'" Also that Schoenberg felt that he had not orchestrated the piece well since he was too inexperienced at the time.
Is that you circa 8:38 of the Osawa recording? Thanks for another great review, Mr. Hurwitz.
I like this piece! I don’t worry too much about what they’re singing about. Sinopoli is my favorite of the ones I’ve heard, the only performance that works for me, though I’ve not yet heard Chailly, Mehta, or Ozawa.
Hi David, as a recent newcomer to your wonderful channel and a most certainly a convert I'm wondering whether, in view of monster works, whether you have an opinion on Havergal Brian's Gothic Symphony. In terms of the forces he requires he outdoes the Gurrelieder by a mile but unlike Schoenberg he makes full use of the enormous forces employed to the extent that listening becomes an almost halucinatory experience. Opinion on the work is very divided but I love it. What do you think? As far Gurrelieder is concerned I find that Chailly provides the most satisfactory all round experience but, curiously, I have a soft spot for the Kubelik notwithstanding the valid points you make concerning the scale of the performance.
Please have a look at my reviews of Brian on ClassicsToday.com.
“In German Romanticism, birds talk … in fact they never shut up!” That was so brilliant - I burst out laughing. Birds have been talking (and not shutting up) since the days of the troubadours, although I am not entirely sure why. (We need to have a call for a volunteer to start archiving the Compleat Dave Hurwitz Bon Mots.)
I appreciated and laughed at some things you said. How do you find the time to listen to so many recordings of such a long winded work?
Werner Klemperer was the narrator of the Survivor From Warsaw that I heard live at the Hollywood Bowl which I think was conducted by Lukas Foss. Klemperer was also in an Egmont I heard live with the New York Philharmonic conducted I believe by Erich Leinsdorf. Colonel Klink indeed.
It always amazes me that, despite all the former singers who tackle the speaker part, it is Klemperer who handles it most musically. Nowhere is "Seht die Sonne" prefaced with more intense anticipation than here; maybe it's all down to acting rather than speak-singing.
I happen to be one of those who has always reveled in the late-romantic decadence of Gurrelieder (there must be a fair number of us since the performances and recordings seem to keep coming), but I'm a little taken aback to realize that I've accumulated at least 5 recordings of this piece (Kubelik, Boulez, Ozawa, Chailly and -oh, well- Stokowski; and yet there's one other recording I haven't heard, but am curious about: a live recording on Oehms Classics, with Levine, the Munchner Phlharmoniker, and another fabulous cast (Voigt, Heppner, Meir, all in their prime and as a bonus the veteran Ernst Haefliger as the Narr). Tempos are reportedly on the slow side, as was frequently the case with Levine in German rep. The CD ppears to be currently unavailable, however. Have you heard this one, by chance?
Yes, and it's very good, but as you say, it's unavailable so I saw no point in discussing it.
I heard your cough last night on a Vinyl signed by Ozawa himself and it added some value to the music! Thanks
Any time. I did my best.
I listened to this and the complete recording of Sir Granville Bantock's complete cantata Omar Khayyam back to back. I see some similarities in the orchestration of both works, kind of like Wagner and Richard Strauss combined. The orchestration in Bantock seems tightly controlled whereas Schoenberg is more loose and all over the place. Did you notice any similarities in Bantock in his excerpts from Omar Khayyam from that complete Vernon Handley collection? I seemed to have picked up certain similar elements in both works. The only difference is of course length. Bantock had Schoenberg beaten by at least an hour.
Yes, Ozawa ! Nothing more to say. And now I know that your cough is in on the recording: even better. Fabulous ! A smoker ! (I’m using my new vocabulary I learned here). 😉 Greetings from Northern Germany.
Enjoy!
I know it's not on CD, but what do you think about the Jansons/BRSO recording on DVD? If you've seen it, I'd like to know your thoughts. Great video by the way.
I haven't seen it. I don't watch DVDs generally.
Apologies for my off-topic question, but it is about choral music, at least. Do you have plans to review recordings of Brahms' Requiem? I'd love to hear your views on the available performances. Looking through your videos, I noticed somewhat of a dearth of Brahms! Besides his shorter choral works, there's so much chamber music to address! Thanks. (Let me know if there's a better way to reach you on topics unrelated to the video.)
Yes.
That Mehta recording was made out of his farewell concerts with the NY Phil.
Kubelik was the first recording. Then I got Boulez (more for the Songs op.22), Kegel (probably with good choir singing) & Ozawa. But till now I don't know it quite well. I think the piano arrangement of the prelude & the interludes of part 1 for piano by Webern might help me.
Interesting that you, too, have problems with the work. I heard it first live in concert. I was 15 and a novice in classical music. My mother said: "You must go to this concert, because you'll never hear the "Gurrelieder" again in your whole life. They are so gigantic that no one can perform them." That was 1976. And some 25 later, I heard that Leviathan even twice in a year in Vienna. 1976, I thought to have listened to the greatest piece ever written. Now I think, it's a monstrum without reason, and I have my doubts about it.
My problem is that Schoenberg doesn't make use of the possibilities: The lovers sing for 40 minutes and more one after the other without interaction like a duet - and this presets the whole work: Not a single ensemble, not a single moment with choir and soloist(s) together (oh, yes, there is the one "Hussah" in the peasant's song). And this gigantic choir (including the female voices) sings for just 5 minutes. It's like a mistaken "Das Lied von der Erde" with the cast of a mistaken 8th symphony. A friend of mine uses to say, when he's asked about the "Gurrelieder": "The ,Mass of Life' is the same whale, but still alive."
Concerning the recordings: Boulez has one advantage: Günter Reich is the only one, who speaks Schoenberg's notes with the correct pitch or relation of pitches. All others, even Patzak and Hotter, fail in this point. But you're right, Boulez doesn't seem interested in the work. Nevertheless, Jess Thomas is really good.
My favourite recordings are Chailly and Sinopoli, Ozawa is upgraded by your cough, but the choirs are a little unclean, as I remember; and isn't he rather slow in the love songs?
You didn't mention Leibowitz' recording with Richard Lewis, Ethel Semser and, I think, a pick-up orchestra - bad sonics, indifferent approach.
But the recording I like very much (although not better than the one by Chailly) is Gielen's. I know, it's a little slow, but the singing (Melanie Diener, Robert Dean Smith, Yvonne Naef) has that wagnerian punch, and Gielen is in my opinion the right conductor for the dark and spooky side of the work, and his tristanic approach to the love songs seems also appropriate to me.
Recently, Thielemann has recorded the work, but I must confess that I do not love the "Gurrelieder" enough to buy a Thielemann-recording...
Besides, in my opinion Schoenbergs best works are the Five Orchestra Pieces, Erwartung, Die glückliche Hand and the Survivor from Warsaw, maybe also the Ode to Napoleon, which recently made a greater impression to me than ever before.
Thanks for your talk!
The Ferencsik recording was made by EMI and released in 1974. Apparently Angel didn't want it so Vox acquired the rights from EMI and released it on Turnabout in the U.S. It has an excellent cast and it's a shame the sound isn't better. The Inbal recording was available for a while from Brilliant Classics, but they now have the Kegel version in their catalog.
Great coughspiel!
I grew up on the Ozawa from my local library (back in the days of music libraries, do they even exist now?). I had just seen Rolf Smedvig (1st Trumpet at Boston when this was recorded) perform with the incredible Empire Brass and was blown away (no pun intended) as a budding brass student by his Trumpet section in this work (in the big moments anyway), but coming back to those big moments again very recently, I've realized the mics were clearly not very well balanced or set-up in this recording cos at times the Trumpets obliterate everything, especially the choir, I almost forgot there was one in the big choral moments. I loved it when I was 15, not so much nowadays. The Kegel is interesting cos it's the absolute other way round, he spotlights the crap out of Waldemar's Men and the massive orchestra just gets the fader treatment into the background, not very satisfactory either, although one thing you do hear over all others is the insane amount of *stuff* (as Mr Hurwitz might put it) that the King's men are singing, contorting and struggling like merry hell to nail it too lol!
Gotta say the most impressive finds for me on this current Gurrelieder drive-by I'm on are the Mehta and the Gielen. I've only listened to the Mehta 'Ross! Mein Ross' song a few times so far, but holy crap do the NYP play the living daylights out of it, and it's fantastically captured too. He lets the magnificent Brass loose to bring home the bacon at the end of this song and I've never heard Ross Mein Ross sound better than it does here, looking forward to getting to know the rest of the Mehta. I have to agree with Mr Hurwtiz about the Chailly too, it's just such a dependable and consistent Gurrelieder, great sound, great playing and Chailly navigates it so well.
Regarding what you said about the Boulez, it's interesting that he never attempted to re-do (or at least record) it in the digital era, unlike nearly everything else he put down on analogue. Yes Gurrelieder is an enormous and expensive work to put-on but Boulez had no shortage of clout if he really wanted to give it another go, so perhaps you're right and he just wasn't convinced by it cos I can't imagine he was happy with the BBC Symphony version, it's not great.
I have tried to get into Gurrelieder a couple of times, but I’m still not st a point where I can truly say I enjoy it. But, I figure a piece with a nice contrabass trombone part can’t be all bad. Maybe I’ll give the Mehta a try and see if it changes my mind.
I have an Opus Arte blu ray of Gurrelieder in a staged performance which makes a bold, albeit not completely effective, attempt to give some coherence to the plot. It is performed by the Netherlands Philharmonic conducted by Marc Albrecht. I have to say that I enjoy the visuals quite a bit which helps one endure the sloggy stuff. It is a fun guilty pleasure of mine which I will watch from time to time. In fact, your video has me ready to give it another viewing.
What's needed is a single disc 'highlights' CD. You just need to get the hunt and the sunrise, and all the other fun, noisy bits. Maybe even add some of the noisier, or creepier bits from "Pelleas & Melisande".
One of the best video so far! :-) I like Gurrelieder very much. My first encounter was this Ozawa version and I agree that this is the best. But unfortunately not sonically. The sound is compressed and somehow dull. And again: where is the bass drum??? Where are the chains? But other than this, that version has the best singers, right tempo, and there is some kind of unity in this performance what I don't find in any other. I have this, I have the Stokowski version (I listened to that years ago, I don't remember), the Salonen version what you also mentioned. That is sonically far better (that impact of the beginning of the last choral song! - I miss that very much from Ozawa's recording) but the performance is worse. I also have Levine's performance from Munich on OEHMS CD (strange that you didn't mention).
Levine is long out of print, it seems.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I think so. I bought it years ago. I wanted to listen to it years ago but the recording puts soloists into the foreground and orchestra to the background. I hate that recording technique but now I have a completely new stereo system and new listening room. I will take a try again sometime in the future.
Can you please do a best Moses and Aaron? The reason I ask is because some people say it's Solti while other people say he aimed too much for a Brahmsian style. I'm keenly interested in getting to know the work because I have read the music illustrates aspects of the story in an insightful way. So I want to rely on an accurate version.
I don't think any MOSES UND ARON (only one a; Schonberg was superstitious) has ever made as convincing a case for it as the Rosbaud performance, recorded from the live first performance. The sense of its theatricality is quite amazing. I don't think it's ever been reissued on CD.
I have to ask, "Why did you cough right at that place?" Was it design or irrepressible nervous reaction?
Sometimes a cough is just a cough.
Thoughts on Craft/Naxos?
Watch the video.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Sorry, missed it somehow.
Ah. You took so few seconds to say how slow and boring it was that I missed it. Surprising, 'cause Craft did some wonderful recordings of the 2nd Viennese back in the day, and many have not been re-released on CD. His Pierrot, Erwartung, that blazing Brahms-Schoenberg Qt with the CSO, Bach-Webern Ricercare, are all terrific. But I hate the Gurrelieder anyway; give me anything from the op. 11-23 period when he was discovering atonality but hadn't codified the 12-tone system yet. (Though I love Moses und Aron, which I hope you'll discuss sometime.)
You are (cough, cough!) hilarious!!!
I LOVE the 1932 Stokowski "Gurrelieder." I know I have a greater tolerance for "historical" sound than you do, but Stokowski's was in state-of-the-art sound for 1932 and I love the fact that Stokowski got RCA Victor to record this live at the American premiere in the depths of the Depression. I'm only sorry Stokowski never remade it when sonics had caught up to the piece's requirements.
I don't think you understand jacobsen's poetry. I know, it's a german translation but the text is quite good and colourful. And what "nonsense" for a poetical text does even mean ? Some verses are obscure, yes, but it does convey an impression of darkness and secret love between distant shadows. Besides, the sprechgesang part is pretty clear to me, a lyrical and detailed depiction of nature at dawn. So, where is the nonsense for you ?
"Some verses are obscure, yes, but it does convey an impression of darkness and secret love between distant shadows." And you ask me where the nonsense is? I rest my case. Lighten up.
@@DavesClassicalGuide The original is in Danish, and the german translation Schoenberg used and tried to improve, is a horror. All these spooky ballads are written in the same pseudo romantic gesture, and like all ghost stories, they make not real sense. Either one loves that thing or not. When the whole, I mean text and music, fits together, it can be fantastic (like Mahler's "Das klagende Lied" or Dvoráks "Ghost Bride"), but for my taste, it should be a campfire tale, not a sophisticated symbolistic mess, which are Jacobsens "Gurrelieder". But let me admit that Jacobsen wrote fine romantic poems and "Niels Lyhne", an interesting tale about an atheist, who gets tested in his non-belief and dies repentless; in a way an atheistic Hiob.
Hello David, I am astonished that you have omitted Gielen - it is my favourite recording of this work.
It's also rather slow, heavy and dull. Sorry.
As far as I know Zoltan Kocsis also wanted to perform Gurrelieder here in Budapest but he died. :-( If I know correctly even the preparation was in process. But his successor was too weak for a Gurrelieder so it was terminated.
Premiered under Kocsis at the Budapest Congress Hall 1998. Sad that Kocsis didn't get to conduct it in the superior accoustic of Müpa :(
It is good to hear your views of the various recordings, even if your general opinion of the piece is more negative than mine. I know all the recordings you discuss except the Inbal and Mehta's with the NYPhil and generally agree with your views. You did not mention James Levine's recording with the Munich Philharmonic, Deborah Voigt, Ben Heppner, and Waltraud Meier on Oehms, which has garnered good reviews elsewhere. I first heard Gurre-Lieder live in Los Angeles when Zubin Mehta conducted it in the late 1960s and have attended other concert performances of it since then in Houston under Eschenbach and in Minneapolis under Eije Oue. The most recent major recording came out just a month ago, with the Staatskapelle Dresden, Stephen Gould, Camilla Nylund, and Christa Meyer, conducted by Christian Thielemann in a March 2020 concert (on Profil-Haenssler). I wish you could have included it in your discussion.
The Levine has been out of print for quite a while and is impossible to source, and there are more than enough fine versions besides. As for Thielemann, if I get a chance to hear it I will talk about it. Finally, as for my view of the piece being "negative," (or "more negative"), I prefer to think of it as realistic. With so many mediocre recordings, I wonder what the problem is--I think the work presents serious interpretive issues, not the least of which is that it takes itself far too seriously (as Schoenberg always did). So I don't take it as seriously as it takes itself.
I’ve heard Levine’s record - paid a pretty penny to get a copy - and I don’t see why it’s talked up like it is. Underwhelming.
Very entertaining talk. I love the first 20 mins and last 20 mins of Gurrelieder...I find the middle "hour" somewhat less inspiring. In terms of what it's about, I'm as confused as you...I have no idea. Tbh, I just listen to the music. The Sprechstimme part is bizarre but I do love the sound and rhythm of the words. The ending is glorious. It must be very frustrating for the orchestra/choir to have long sections where they are doing nothing. I don't know about recordings - but some performances I've seen on YT that are wonderful are Ozawa, Abbado (Norman, Barbara Sukowa).
I have never heard the cough! It's the best Gurrelieder by miles.
It's a very musical cough.
They always say the volume of a cough is comparable with that of a French horn. That's to discourage audience members from contributing to the sound. But it seems that composers have missed a trick. Where are Mozart's and Strauss's cough concerti? If only they had heard your extraordinary performance in Schoenberg. In fact, we have the French horn and the cor anglais, so being SO American, as you are, I suggest the 'SoUSAphone'. Or am I too late?
Hmmm, no one mentioned the Stenz recording, which is about 5 years old now. I didn't know about it until recently, either.
Coincidentally, Ralph Moore published a survey of Gurrelieder recordings just this month over on Musicweb. His choices:
First choice equal: Levine 2001 Oehms/Ozawa 1979 Philips
Second choices: Stenz 2014; Ferencsik 1968
I did mention Stenz quite specifically.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Well, that's what I get for scanning the transcript. I thought someone might mention it in the comments.
I came to Gurrelieder through a Dutch radio broadcast some time in the 80's, the Netherlands Radio Philharmonic under...Sergiu Comissiona. Went very well, no confusion about who wanted to go where. To my teenager ears it sounded just great. I got Ozawa as my first recording, I also have Chailly, Inbal, Rattle, Kubelik and Gielen. I think Gielen is indeed on the slow side (10 minutes slower than Ozawa), but not droopy. I think it's one of the greats. I ordered Mehta thanks to your video. Can't wait... One thing you didn't mention. Schonberg initially didn't finish the work and moved on to other projects in 1903. He returned to the work in 1910, by which time he had moved on to atonality. This explains somewhat the stylistical discrepancies between the first two parts and part three, and this may contribute to a certain conceptual disequilibrium. Waldemar and Hedwig were by the way historical figures and 14th century Gurre castle on the east coast of Denmark and facing Sweden, though a ruin today, can still be visited.
I did mention the delay in completing the work, but said it doesn't matter. There is no stylistic disparity between the various sections. That's another instance of people talking instead of listening.
Side note - the Mehta NYPO Gurrelieder performances were his last as Philharmonic Music Director.
Yes. You're like the tenth person to point that out!
@@DavesClassicalGuide Interestingly he also conducted three performances with the NYPO in April 1983 that included Hotter and, for two of the three, Jessye Norman.
My favorite is Seiji Osawa only because the Sprechgesang in Herr Gansefuss is the only Sprecher who pleases me. Its charm and beauty is not as a logical narrative to me at least. It's like the craziness of the first full spring day when bugs, flowers, sounds and sun, air and optimism all fight for our attention.
There's really only one truly satisfactory recording. Jessye Norman, Tatiana Troyanos, James McCracken with Werner Klemperer as the speaker? Who can compete with that? No one.
That's pushing it.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I haven't heard all the recordings. But I have heard all the singers. Jerusalem sings beautifully until he has to reach for his high notes which almost always sound forced. Jess Thomas is excellent but Napier is not in Norman's league. Mehta has three wonderful soloists but still not quite the caliber of Ozawa's. Levine's trio is excellent but not quite on the level of Ozawa's cast. Krips has Janowitz and Ludwig but Sergi is no McCracken. The only thing wrong with the Ozawa recording is the soloists are balanced too far forward. Most recordings have one or two great singers. Fortunately, Ozawa has three of the greatest.
I actually like the work, but it is not something you listen to frequently. I will get flamed, for sure, but prefer this era of Schoenberg's output to his later works.
Oh, and I just love your harp glissando.
I prefer the Lyric symphony by Zemlinsky to Gurre-Lieder, it has the similar quality in terms of decadent expressivity but it's much shorter. :-))
How would you compare this work to Transfigured Night?
I wouldn't.
"my cough was on this recording"
ahahahaha
ruining schoenberg for posterity respect
For me, Ozawa's recording is somewhat flawed because it's a live recording, with consequent "imperfections". Chailly is FABULOUS. I like Sinopoli and Inbal, but also Gielen (Hänssler).
I find Gielen to be rather flabby and too soft-edged, surprisingly.
One review I read from Amazon thought this about the recording venue itself: Boston Symphony Hall is one of the best acoustics in the world, but it is not a big hall. As such, the enormous orchestra required by Gurrelieder sounds quite dry, almost as if this were a live recording with the hall filled. I imagine that the chorus could have been larger but there was likely no more room on the stage for the singers that could have more effectively balanced this ensemble.
If we're going down the road of big huge german 20th century oratorio, can you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do a video on Das Buch mit Sieben Siegeln by Franz Schmidt? It's SUUUUCH a more interesting work than this!!!!!
Also, the BEST Karita Matila recording is the French Don Carlos with Pappano and Alagna because it's a LIVE recording from the paris opera and it lets her voice bloom in the space.
Levine did it with the Munich Phil., somewhat decent.
It's Queen Hedwig, not Dagmar, dear David - but it really doesn't matter. Actually, the Song of the Wood Dove is a Desert Island piece for me - I can do without all the rest, addmittedly.
I know. I just like Dagmar better. The point I was trying to make is exactly yours: it doesn't matter.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I had a girl friend once who was called Edwige. It didn't end well. For the relation that is. I'm still alive.
@@jeroendejong6680 Phew! Dodged a bullet there.
My problem with Gurrelieder lays not in its length - in fact I'm always entertained by the piece from start to finish. But what annoys me is how Schoenberg called for a monstrous orchestra with 84 string players (excluding harps), 25 wind players and 25 brass players, only to micromanages them throughout the whole damn piece! I mean the experience of listening to Wagner, Bruckner, Mahler and Strauss is that you know these composers would make every brass and woodwind players go all loud when the climax comes, but what about Gurrelieder? There've been numerous times when I was expecting those 10 horns, 7 trumpets and 7 trombones to blow my ears out, and Schoenberg ended up making them play like a string quartet. The strings never had any moment to play their guts out and really shine like in Mahler or Strauss' music. The parts for the choirs feel like they were adapted from piano music. To be honest, have Mahler been the one who composed Gurrelieder (and he rightly should've been), I cannot in all of my imagination think he'd ever use more than 100 instrumentalists and 100 singers.
Good point. I think you've hit the nail on the head.
I've had the same problem with his Pelleas und Melisande, where he employed a force equal to Mahler's 3rd Symphony, and yet for most of the time that symphonic poem sounds even less impressive than Mahler's 4th
Did you hear the new Thielemann Gurre-Lieder with the Staatskapelle Dresden? Like so many others, he is not the fastes one but quiet good. But Ozawa is indeed the „Sahnehäubchen“ as we say in Switzerland ;)
For me, Gurrelieder is easier for me to listen to in excerpts, rather than the whole thing through.
Makes sense to me.
Never listened to Schoenberg's piece on this ... but I'm betting the music is far better than the ridiculous story. Why he'd be drawn to write a score I don't know, but I'd bet it had something to do with a bet with a friend on a drink fest.
What matters is not the silliness of the story, but what it suggests musically. The music itself is beautiful and extremely evocative, despite some obvious flaws.
Is there any opera or musical drama etc. , that is great thanks to the story or quality of the text? I don't think so.
@@bolemirnoc604 Berg's Wozzeck. Berg was a promising composer with some very good music to his credit already, no doubt, but when he sank his teeth into Buchner's play, the result was a staggering masterpiece. None of his earlier pieces are anywhere near Wozzeck in ambition and power.
A grim reminder of what a great musician and composer we lost when Shoenberg decided to pursue an ideology rather than art.
Oh, come on! That's silly. Schoenberg wrote great music at all periods of his life.
@@DavesClassicalGuide One of the benchmarks of "great", for me anyway, is that it doesn't make your skin crawl. I think we would be in a better place today, musically, socially, artistically, and psychologically, if serialism had never existed. Music to slit your wrists by, really.
@@gregstanton7321 I repeat: Oh, come on! That's silly. Don't compound it.