What next for Catalonia? | DW English
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2024
- As the stakes get higher for Catalonia and its leaders contemplate exile in Brussels, where does its independence movement go from here? Tim Sebastian meets Alfred Bosch from the pro-independence Republican Left of Catalonia party.
Conflict Zone is Deutsche Welle's top political interview. Every week, our hosts Tim Sebastian and Michel Friedman are face-to-face with global decision-makers, seeking straight answers to straight questions, putting the spotlight on controversial issues and calling the powerful to account.
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Coming here from Borrell's awful appearance in the show today. As a supporter of Catalan independence I really appreciated Tim Sebastian interviewed Bosch in such a tough way, showing the very real contradictions and limits of pro-independence political leaders for everyone to see. IMHO they have failed the movement and need to be held accountable, not to Spain in a political show trial that is just some steps below Erdogan's repressive justice, but to the Catalan people. This was much needed. I never saw anything at this level in neither Catalan nor Spanish media or the Spanish Supreme Court. Thanks.
not to Spain in a political show trial that is just some steps below Erdogan's repressive " your comment is typical of a racist hispanófobo.
I fail to see the racism in a comparison of two repressive judicial systems of the same continent, could you point out where is the racism in that comparison?
The government of Spain created and financed terrorist groups like the GAL (and other small terrorist groups, a recent one is "Caso Panzer" where a known right wing terrorist that murdered a young valencian independentist stock pilled rocket launchers and high caliber guns of the spanish army, somebody reported it to the police aaaand the weapons disappeared magically before the trial), Spain also has outlawed parties (like the ones the government falsely linked with terrorism) that remained always legal in the French Basque Country and their politicians never got detained there...
Bosch 1 - 0 Dastis
I recommend to not Spanish people giving their opinion in favour of giving a referendum to Catalan separatists the following exercise: Think of the richest region or province of your own countries, and imagine the people there want to separate from the rest of the nation out of greed, because they don’t want to share any wealth (which they have got selling products in the rest of the country that they want to leave now). And then think that the second richest region might want to do the same, and so on. Would you agree on organising a referendum so that they can leave? Then check whether you still want the same for Spain and Catalonia as for your own countries.
Of course the separatists are not going to say they want to leave out of greed, as it is morally unacceptable, so they are going to talk about different customs, tradition, language, history, etc., in order to confuse public opinion. Maybe the following helps to assess the situation:
Catalan language not only has not been discriminated in the last 40 years, but has been privileged over Spanish. For example, in state schools parents or students have no freedom to choose the language the different subjects are taught in, and Catalan is compulsory even though all the teachers know perfectly Spanish. That is in regard to public or official activities, because in rural areas or in a family context the use of Catalan was never bothered. Spanish is also forbidden to be used for shop signs, there’s no freedom to choose as you get fined.
Catalonia has full competence in Health and Education, so the Catalan government or parliament decide what to teach to the children.
Catalonia has its own police force whose boss is the Catalan government, so much so that other Spanish police forces have in practice disappeared from sight in the last decades. It goes without saying you have to know Catalan to enter this police force.
Economically, Catalonia has always done very well belonging to Spain and has been privileged. So much so that it has traditionally been one of the richest part of Spain and has always been economically favoured from the central government, even and especially in Franco’s dictatorship. Catalonia is where first appeared in Spain the modern capitalist industry of the Industrial Revolution more than 200 years ago. The first place in Spain that had a railway line. The first place in Spain with motorways too. Thanks to the fact that Catalonia has been part of Spain, Catalan products have had access to Latin America and the whole of Spain, a market much bigger than if Catalonia had been a separate country, and that market was protected by the Spanish government with high tariffs. The present trade surplus with the rest of Spain is absolutely huge. For that, it’s not a great risk to say that Catalonia has thrived and has the wealth it has thanks to the fact that it has been part of Spain. In spite of all this, the narration of Catalan nationalist parties (all of them now turned into separatist) for the Catalan population and abroad goes: Catalonia has been a colony, invaded by the oppressor Castile or Spain. An ever lasting victim playing. It must be the first colonisation in history where the territory of the oppressor remains backward and deindustrialised, as Castile, Andalucia, Extremadura, etc; while the colonised territory gets more developed, modern and wealthy.
After knowing what has just been said we must put this question: What is at stake? What can the pro-independence politicians get with independence that they cannot get with present status?
The answer and key word to understand this separatist process is: TAXES. The Catalan nationalist apparatchiks, who have been in power since the autonomous region was created more than 40 years ago, don’t want to share the booty of taxes with the Spanish government. In order to get that they need the crowds, and you win over the crowds manipulating and talking about a different culture, a different language, and even a different DNA, as Junqueras did, and offering them a sort of paradise. Nazis did it some time ago. The problem for those apparatchiks is that they didn’t work out very well the cost that independence (or pushing to the limit if they didn’t get it in the end) could have. In my opinion the boycott of Catalan products in the rest of Spain has been crucial to stop them, and it is also what is behind the huge number of companies moving their headquarters out. Separatists thought Spaniards are so idiot as to keep buying their products, making them wealthy, and letting them keep all the taxes for them. Spaniards haven’t been very brilliant along history, definitely not the vanguard of progress, but either so stupid as some think, not to be underestimated anyway.
They fled because of the Spanish government illegally imposing its will. This isn't the first time a government has gone into exile.
Illegally? You only abide the international laws when they suit you.
Of course it's illegal. Spanish government can't legally exercise its will in the courts, there needs to be separation of powers. You spaniards don't seem to understand that, do you?
What is really needed is a little more intelligence and confronting reality about your own actions.
Catalan politicians were being threatened at the time by the opposition IN THE PARLIAMENT but this cute interviewer complaining about internet trolls insulting socialist majors...
He's a tough interviewer but Bosch is well able!! The Spanish foreign minister was torn to pieces on his turn
There are interviewees who defend their position, and there are those who flee.
Like Mr. Borrell for instance.
jajaja sí claro es lo mismo, un periodista que está para apoyar el independentismo y que es hispanófobo, como lo son los independentista, que un periodista serio imparcial
@@antonio703
Como que no lo has entendido te lo traduzco. Digo que hay entrevistados que defienden su posición y los hay que huyen. Como por ejemplo Borrell.
The journalist interrupts all the time... the first rule NOT to do in an interview... sad times... watch news of the 70s and 80s: journalists were polite and ALLOWED people to answer questions and not replace the interview by putting their own ideas.... What a decadence! O Tempora, o Mores.....
Now was Tim Sebastian playing the devil's advocate to enable the truth,
or doing his best to destroy the truth? Well, was not this show pure truth?
Bravo, Mr. Bosch! You hold up incredibly well in front of an interviwer that has made his reputation at attacking and acusing rather than at asking questions. Compare this interview with the one to Datis or Josep Borrel, both Spanish Ministers for Foreign Affers, and you will see the difference. Good job!
Unprofesional, provocative and sensacionalist ... Even using facebook quotes to justify his "point of view". Literally he responded himself the questions showing no interest on what Alfred had to say
MrZaska15 if you don't like the interview just because you are listening things that doesn't match your reality, you are showing your dictatorial vein.
arslongavitabrebis when I said anithing about dictayorship? Just said the interview was unprofessional. U are just the tipicall spanish troll calling nazi every one with nationalist views even tho u are the most nationalist of all. When truth hurts just call them nazi :)
Why would a Facebook quote not be a legit one? How is it different to a quote from an email, a phone conversation or a quote in a newspaper?
It would have been nice to be able to hear a full sentence in that cough interview.
MrZaska15 , Tim is rude in all conflict zone episodes because it seam is the only way to take the guest out of their comfort zone and make them answer question that usually guests try to avoid repeating speeches. It is juts a technique, how you can't see it?
The Catalan referendum WAS legal. Under Catalan law, it was legal. - This is like Russians arguing that most Soviets voted against the break-up of the Soviet Union and against Estonian and other nations' Independence. The problem: Russian votes didn't and don't matter in Estonia. - Spanish law and its Constitution doesn't matter in Catalonia IF they don't want it to.
one person could vote many times
At the end, if the catalonian secesionists were the 90% of the catalans (as they swear), nobody could have stoped the born of a new nation. Their politicians leaded them to a nonsense situation where nobody supports them, because they are a minority inside the catalan society. That is the HUGE point.
“If catalans want freedom THEY DESERVE IT”. That is right. The problem is the secesionist are not THE catalans. Sorry.
Just a question: if I kill someone and I don't want to recognize homicide as a crime, I will be free from any accusation, right? :-)
Yes! If you live in Narnia... :)
You could not have said better! Thank you, gracias...
Dude puhleeeeeease can you just let him talk for crying out loud! This is supposed to be an interview, and it's literally this guy talking over perfectly good arguments. "Who's been imprisoned and beaten up" and he says "Who's been intimidated"?? Come on please stop embarrassing yourself, it's not like the Spanish Government has never intimidated anyone, especially the Catalans. The interviewer's points really are absolutely pathetic.
"Especially"... :D
I wonder why would the interviewer prefer to see all the Catalan leaders surrender and in hands of the enemy, rather than retreating to a safe place to organize the resistance. I don't remember having read something similar about De Gaulle or Mao...
@@SpanishWithSergio
Cuando decís que el caso de Escocia es diferente, tenéis razón: Escocia pactó compartir monarquía con Inglaterra, y por el contrario Cataluña y los demás reinos y paises de la confederación aragonesa fueron brutalmente conquistados.
En palabras del primer borbón, Felipe V, tarado, rijoso y corrupto como todos ellos, Cataluña fue "reducida a las leyes de Castilla por justo(!?) derecho de CONQUISTA".
Antes, Cataluña jamás quiso reyes y jamás los tuvo.
Fue la sociedad más libre de Europa, con una idea moderna de Nación y de ciudadanía ya dos siglos antes de la toma de la Bastilla.
En varias ocasiones hemos intentado el pacto, llámese Mancomunitat o Generalitat, y siempre Madrid lo ha traicionado.
Hoy, un 80% de catalanes, da igual si unionistas o separatistas, queremos celebrar un referéndum de autodeterminación y además todos estamos determinados a respetar nuestra opinión mayoritaria, sea ésta la que sea.
El restante 20% se reparte entre:
A) colonos castellanizadores y fanáticos,
B) colonos interesados y
C) los del NS/ NC.
Lo que ocurrió el 1-O, en plena Unión Europea y ya entrado el s.XXI, con imágenes escalofriantes que ya todo el mundo ha visto menos los españolitos, fue demasiado.
Indudablemente sois el enemigo. Jamás hemos renunciado a aquella libertad perdida, y ahora, una vez fracasados todos los intentos y posibles pactos habidos, ya nunca más lo haremos.
DONEC PERFICIAM.
Perdón: B) COLABORACIONISTAS interesados.
Catalonia is not an state but an autonomy and therefore can perfectly be taken away. There are very good ground for it. Mr.Bosch is already claiming that Catalonia is a kind of nation separated from Spain. But it is not. An autonomy is far from being a Country.
I love this interviewer. He's just straight up real. 😂
Thank you!
The interrogation went on with this in the background of interrogator's mind , as if he wanted to mark points against independant movements of people, what is legitimate , and he tried to avoid same thing happening with UK breaking up between Scothland, Wales, N. Ireland , and etc....
LOL THIS GUY LIVES IN AN ALTERNATE REALITY!
A serious journalistic opportunity missed by an interviewer who was crude and ill prepared.
The interviewer is a prepared and highly confrontational journalist. The point is he threw everything the interview and Mr Bosch was equally able to answer. The tough interview style is a tactic that demonstrates Bosch is also very capable. Compare Bosch to josep borrel's recent interview. After, Bosch shook hands with the interviewer
Horrific interviewer....so hostile
Chris Thomson Tim is rude in all conflict zone episodes because it seam is the only way to take the guest out of their comfort zone and make them answer question that usually guests try to avoid repeating speeches. It is juts a technique, how can't you see it?
Horrific interviewee so out of real world.
A tough interviewer, the way it should be.
Really poor interviewer. I wanted probing questions but this was a biased onslaught. His aggressive style actually prevented the viewer getting a rounded view.
Wow the most unprofessional journalist. Not listening. Denying. Disgusting.
Chelo Alfonso
Both of them are not listening and denying, from a neutral point of view. But it is curious the fact that you only noticed the journalist. Are you sure you are not being biased. Are you sure your mind hasn't been intervened?
I agree this kind of discussion whom interviwer ask for the truth. I'm shure it's hard to being inteviwed by him. But finaly, the truth is shown. Catalans are for peace and for renewal through and to ristore the good polititians as in the old Europe. The young people need to know the fight of democrathic people against cruel dictature in Spain. Europe didnt support nazism in power all along 40 years; the people at the spanish governement are in the same line of dictature decisions. Europe did citizens of peace for 40 years while spain had nazism and wrong education for 40 years; that's why people dont understand democracy in Spain. Catalonia had always ideas of resistance from wrong education! That's why catalans are trying to be free!
This is good, it's so good that I can not leave my fingers still.
The way you try to paint the picture of the struggle against the dictatorship in Spain is so sad and so unfair to the rest of the Spanish fighters that it is pathetic.
Do you really want to give the impression to the world that for 40 years the only ones who fought against our dictator were the Catalans? Do you mean the rest of the Spanish do not want freedom?
On the other hand, it is convenient to remind the world that the secessionists (less than two million in a population of 7.5 million) are not the Catalans.
Anyway, I hope you like this song and its lyrics (I suppose Spain is the Baby):
czcams.com/video/1PejDrgF7oM/video.html
Why can't this guy come up with his own questions instead of quoting unionists?
Tajani and Junker was invited by the spanish government last year and receive one medal by the king of Spain ...and maybe some more
17:00 that survey is a trimestral one that has been done several times and just 2 or 3 trimestral surveys over the last 4 years have shown less support for independence than against independence (one of those 3 was the last survey released before the interview, it's logic that they took that). You can check the others in: ceo.gencat.cat/es/estudis/registre-estudis-dopinio/index.html
This interviewer is unprofessional as a journalist.
Ernest Lee if you don't like the interview just because you are listening things that doesn't match your reality, you are showing your dictatorial vein.
Where exactly is he unprofessional? Can you give us timecodes?
I like how interviewer kept pushing back at dubious triumphal claims. Bosch, like all true believers, will spin 'til he falls.
The Catalan Republic is playing the long game, both domestically and internationally. So far they have been absolutely brilliant, while Rajoy is a plodding dullard.
Surely you jest, for Sebastian was superb in playing the devil's advocate and preparing the views minds so that Republican Bosch could slam home the perfect squelch.
Tim, your sneering unprofessional tone is disgusting. Have you ever stood for anything in your entire life? Your crypto-fascist apologies are the worst I have ever seen from a journalist, but then again, you are primarily a fiction writer. No wonder you've been exiled to Germany.
Tommy - undoubtedly Tim Sebastian will release an interview the Spanish government next week. Have a look at the past episodes and you will see many high profile interviews asking questions from both sides. Madrid would look very bad indeed if they refused to participate after the Catalans appeared on CZ.
So if Tim can't find some functionary in Madrid who can speak English (Rajoy certainly can't) and will appear on camera, then this will stand as Tim's total contribution to the Catalan question? What a horrible farce. I can still remember a time when journalism was about more than false equivalence, and when human rights mattered.
Tommy Whisper: You can't say that the Catalan human rights are trampled upon by Spain. If such was the case, the independent Catalan Republic would have been recognized by now. In the UN-charter is written that every people has the right to govern itself, if it chooses to. But in practise, only new countries are recognized if their human rights have been violated or if it's the result of a legal referendum (what lacks in the Catalan question).
Now, I know where you're coming from. Indeed, if there's a country to be blamed for this mess, it's Spain that didn't want to have a conversation with the Catalans about their grievances, ambitions and wishes since 2010 (the year that the previous agreement between the Catalans and the PSOE was dragged before the Spanish supreme by the PP). No doubt about it. But Spain has always been a country that is incapable of accepting any compromise with anybody. That's why Spain is primordially known for its expulsion of Jews and Muslims, for blindly attacking (and losing) anyone who doesn't agree with its opinion and for the creation of the Inquisition and Opus Dei, the fascist wing of the Catholic faith. Real progress for mankind, thus. This incapabality to accept any compromise is the reason why Spain has lost quite rapidly everything it once owned.
Rajoy, in the meantime, has used this crise to boost his popularity in the rest of Spain. That he doesn't care for the Catalan people, nor for the UN-charter Spain has signed, is a given. He could do this because the independence movements in Spain (although strong in some regions) don't amount to anything in the Spanish parliament. What is a big part of the problem. And, in view of what a narrowminded, vindictive state Spain has always been, it surely wants to arrest, prosecute and jail the entire Catalan government. No doubt about it.
Dirk, the human rights violations have only just begun. Remember, those include not only soft rights to self-determination but also hard rights against prosecutorial overreach and political persecution in the criminal courts. The brief against the Spanish authorities is growing by the day. If the independence parties are allowed to participate in the December elections and if they gain a majority, expect the conflict to intensify and Rajoy to continue to make one mistake after another. I agree with your analysis, but I would guess that Puigdemont over the medium and long term will have a very healthy case for recognition.
Tommy Whisper: I don't think that the right of self-determination is a human right. It should be, but I don't think it is. The human rights are listed and used by the EU as a cornerstone of its politics.
What concerns prosecutorial overreach and political persecution, Spain will answer that the Catalan government did violate its constituon (which they did, after all, for obvious reasons) and that this is the reason for their prosecution. I see no court denying Spain this reasoning. In this regard, it is important to know that Puidgemont doesn't go to Spain and that Spain will answer with a European arrest-warrent and a demand of extradition which Belgium will receive. What Puidgemont can and will dispute before a court. That will be the first clue of how Spanish behavior will be appreciated by the courts. The first, however, 'cause Spain will not relent until this case is handled by the highest European court.
Indeed, you're absolutely right. With all of this, the Catalan question can not be resolved. That's why the PP and the PSOE have decided to reform the Spanish constitution. We have to wait and see on what kind of reform they can agree. But Spain is determinded first to jail the entire Catalan government. As an example for other regions if they ever dare to take matters into their own hands. And, furthermore, to boost Rajoy's popularity within Spain.
lol its 2019 ....are you a republic yet? how come in court all your mates said it was simbolic?
GRANDIÓS ALFRED BOSCH!!!!
Mr Sebastian does not interesting about the oppinion of Alfred Bosch. He -is like a stalinist/leninist/KGB inquisitor- decides what is right what is wrong.
More or less like the secessionists with their independence declaration by the way :)
I listen to and watch this kind of programs while using my hometrainer. I actually thought it was Quadriga instead of this, and when I realized I was wrong, it was too late to change. As such, it was the first time I saw this, and it was the last time, too. This was not an interview from a subjective journalist, it was an interrogation, an attack almost, by someone with a clear view, on which the accused should only have answered 'yes'. Much more time was not given to him, as the 'journalist' did not want to hear, let alone accept, any reply, but only wanted to speak himself. Those Catalans must be peaceful people; I guess I would have left instead. Bad program, sorry.
The Mexican Americans have more claim for independence on the whole western part of the United States than the Catalans will ever have in Spain. If you would argue that cultural, ethnic and historic dwelling governs the right for independence, then the Mexican Americans have a much stronger claim for claiming the entire western United States as an independent country from the United States of America, the United States of Mexico and the Kingdom of Spain, for that "historic" matter! So, if you think Catalonia deserves independence, then just give all the western United States to "La Raza" Chicano Power - Mexican American, and recognize it as the Aztlan Nation.
The Catalan argument fomenting this independence movement is based on corrupt politicians wanting to break the law in hopes of keeping fraudulently obtained funds.
First mistake DW putting and Englishman in the interviewers chair. Some of the English still claim Ireland is not a real country over a century since they declared independence. The English even tried to take control of South Africa during it's transition to a democracy more than 40 years since defacto independence and 32 years after it was declared a republic. They have made attempts to claim the authority to negotiate for countries decades after independence. Even now talk of re-establishing control over former colonies has grown louder in the British parliament.
So how can you expect someone from such as culture of violence and exploitation treat this issue with fairness and balance?
Our journalists work in a fair and balanced manner no matter where they come from. So why not judge the interview's quality by its content, not the nationality of the interviewer?
Perhaps you should look into his involvement in the case of the British Army versus the O'Donnell family. The family while travelling to holiday with family in the Republic of Ireland stopped at a shopping centre carpark in Derry. It was in the early morning and they waited for shops to open. An army convoy arrived and surrounded them with guns pointed and began harassing the family. On discovering their name they were forced into a lorry and taken to the local army bases for questioning. It was there all the O'Donnells suffered injuries.
Mr O'Donnell was a bricklayer and his wife worked in a library. They were both in their early 30's. Their three children aged from 10 years to 14.
After they were eventually released no explanation was given. Mr O'Donnell contacted the BBC in Scotland with the story and was interviewed but no news broadcast was ever made. They were on questioning the BBC told that they should be silent and threats of exposing them as having IRA connections as well as being suspected of transporting weapons were made.
Many years later a former BBC employee told them the story had suppressed and an internal report issued against the original journalist. His story had been deemed by a group of senior correspondents as damaging to the image of the British Army. The "group" was of politically responsible individuals trusted by the UK government to promote British national interests. They were responsible individually for specific geographic zones in the world and were assisted by "journalist" who conducted the actual TV reports. Those assistants also helped prepare advice reports. Sebastian's name is allegedly one of those on the O'Donnell report.
Tim Sebastian being from a the segregated social, economic and political elite of England was educated at an exclusive private school and later at the Elite's favoured university of Oxford. He moved eventually to the BBC was inserted as a political correspondent and possibly had some connection to British intelligence services. He was expelled from the USSR. He in his writing implies a close relationship with British intelligence services. Much his work hints at political patronage by the British elite including that for the Times newspaper and the far right Daily Mail. The Daily Mail has supported in the past Adolf Hitler, Apartheid South Africa and today regularly acts as an apologist for Trump and other racially motivate politicians.
I grew up Jewish in the USSR and I know a State Propagandist when I see one. Sebastian I would strongly suspect even if I had heard nothing else. That your news organisation can claim him as a respectable journalist begins to say a lot about DW. Because you certainly have the resources to see into his background. It seems that what you saw you LIKED.
Catalonia independentism has developed since 1980, when it became a regional political area under the spanish kingdom, with one of the highest grades of autonomy, a process of lack of true information to their citizens, an educational program that changes history in order to make of Catalonia what it never was, and the worst of all, a process of racism that has brought it to a kind of fascist or nazi regime. More than half of the population in Catalonia does'nt want any kind of independence from Spain. But those are the inhabitants of the rich parts of the region, including Barcelona. The most undeveloped, rural and village based populations are, with their lower cultural status, in the hands of the politicians that due to their problems with the corruption use the independence for their own profit. It is really a disaster! Now there is a new iniciative, TABARNIA, a new political entity emerging from this chaos, which favors the separation of Tarragona, Barcelona and the coastal areas from the interior land independentists. But TABARNIA does'nt want to be an independent country (impossible under the actual spanish constitution) but another spanish region, a political process which has many records in different countries in the world's recent past.
such supremacist view you've shown for all the world to see, good work. I seriously hope not all who want to remain in Spain are like you.
Teresa Freixes hahahahahaah one unionist anti independence .
The Interviewer and the his interviewprogram is going to be HARD. And all the guests knows that, yet this guy complain!
What a silly pompous uninformed interviewer. Why doesn't he just interview himself if he doesn't want to listen to his guest.
The guy looks like he's been crying. I bet he cried after the interview too.
Tommy Whisper, may I quote: "Do not use profanity or derogatory terms. Do not insult other users. Remain respectful even if you disagree about what is said." (www.dw.com/en/dws-netiquette-policy-rules-for-feedback-and-discussions/a-18285540) - ws
Great interview Mr. Tim!. Mr.Bosch and nonsense independence leaders has started to show their colours. They've been great creating a goody goody image about themselves but at the end the reality about them will be emerging. There is not way they represent the majority of Catalan people. Catalonia is Spain.
Hahahahaha, this interview is absolutely biassed by this "journalist" lying all the time .