I completely agree. I never understood the long hose concept on sidemount. As a safety precautions to myself and the other dive I feel just donating the tank is the safest option. No matter what you are going to end the dive anyway.
Hi Achim, Thanks for sharing these videos. They are very informational. I have a question. If one is on drysuit and uses steel cylinders, obviously the weight of the cylinders are part of the total weight required to stay neutral at depth. If he then donates his cylinders to the out of gas diver, wouldn't he float or be underweighted? It maybe okay if he uses AL cylinders as the weight will be on the diver but for steel cylinders some of the weight will be coming from the cylinders.
Hey Achim, great vid as always. what's your opinion on SM configurations using an isolatable manifold. therefore being able to stay on the long hose the entire dive and it always being donatable?
+1 for the (UTD style) 'open-valve' isolatable SM which keeping the original DIR philosophy intact and tanks remain balanced without continual changing 2nd stages.
Thank you, i totally agree What about two long houses in sidemount! One for each thank .. I sow divers using it .. i am not Criticizing the two long houses configuration, because i strongly believe that sidemount is flexible and perfect individually! If the training and setup works well with a driver, That's it. However there is always a room to try new things and develop! I guess that's why i am following you .. basically for education and learning.. So, what do you think of two long houses configuration in SM? Cheers!!
Hi, Thanks for the video, Have a question about the part where you give away a tank to your dive buddy. Diving with low pressure steel tanks. If I need to have enough extra weight on my body to be able to donate a tank I would be having ~8ish lbs extra if something happened at the start of the dive. My question is on how you overcome the weight issue if you dive with steel tanks, or if you are starting out with enough extra weight to compensate for a situation where you would need to give your tank away at the start of the dive? To me that is a lot of extra weight not to mention some bulk that it will add to compensate for it. Meaning that the tanks are part of my weight system. Which again means I do use a long hose since I cant give away one of my steel tanks, in that regards it is no different from using doubles. With aluminum tanks it makes more sense since there is not the same weighting issue. Still I use a long hose since that is what I am used to. I do like the points you make. - I'm not advocating for either, but curious to learn more so I can make smarter decisions! Thanks Jacob
This is all fine and dandy if you live anywhere other than the Midwest where you primarily dive cold water, in a Drysuit, with heavy undergarments. I think I’ll keep the long hose and drop the lead.
I'll be learning sidemount this year. So I have no idea how this will work actually work and might have some bad assumption below. Also, I have been using imperial (PSI and cubic feet) rather than metric (bar and litres). I have been watching your videos and like what I have been seeing for the most part. That said... From what I've read and my instructor has told me, I'll have two 3500 PSI steel tanks (approximately 12 litre @ 300 bar each). I will be switching which tank I am breathing off everything 500 PSI (approximately 40 bar). This way I will be using both regulators equally, more or less. I also won't be heavier on one side or the other, more or less. Here is where I have some questions about your system... Would you teach how I use the tanks differently? If no, if I give my entire tank and regulator to my buddy in an emergency situation won't that throw off my trim? Especially if my tanks are relatively full. If yes, how would I maintain trim? How would I make sure both regulators are working? Also, if it is a stressful situation, won't it be easier to have a long hose when trying to figure out how to remove my tank? Cold water, thick gloves. If I could give them a long hose then give myself a little distance while I disconnect the tank from my harness then hand the tank off to them. Won't having a long hose make this a little easier? I know that my training will emphasize donating air. If I'm on the short hose (left tank) and my buddy signals out of air then I just donate the long hose. If I'm on the long hose (right tank) and my buddy signals out of air, I have to switch back to short hose and donate my long hose (not sure if I donate first then switch to short hose or switch to short hose then donate; will find out in a few weeks). If I practice this on a regular basis, wouldn't it be just as easy as practicing removing my entire tank and regulator? Thanks for all the great videos and looking forward to a reply.
HI Darrell, thanks for your mail. Unfortunately there is a very simple answer to all of this. (Strictly based on ISE philosophy and my believes) Sidemount as we understand, teach and dive it - does not work with heavy tanks ans it leads to exactly the problems you describe. The weight needed has to be placed on the diver and must not be reached by heavy tanks. So HP steel tanks arevthe worst choice possible for SM diving. So, yes, you will have an issue if you donate a tank. This said - the "system" if you want to call it like said you have been taught, will work within its limits but will not work in a SM environment where the tanks have to be removed or replaced. Generally, as also said in various videos, the idea of an OOG SM diver is pretty much nonsens and the problem will arrise - if at all, with an OC diver in a mixed team.
Hi Darrell. By now, you probably worked out your problems, but as Achim was saying about donating a tank, with sm, you would want to use aluminum tanks because of buoyancy. So if you were to donate a tank, your trim and buoyancy should not be affected at all. So then, as he said, you can just use two 1m hoses instead of a long hose. That is the ISE philosophy, and it works if you do as Achim says - use aluminum tanks. That said, in places like Florida, where I was cave diving this past summer, EVERYONE is using steel tanks! Most are using HP tanks! This is not a good idea as they are just too heavy for sm and they create other problems (lift, buoyancy, etc.) Yet, LP tanks are a fine choice because their buoyancy characteristics are more similar to aluminum tanks. But still, an LP85 is heavier in the water than an AL80, especially at the end. So in that case, a long hose of 5-7 feet is what you'll need. I dive in different configurations depending on what I'm doing. My rebreather is sm as well. Sometimes I will use two 3m hoses, sometimes (with AL tanks) two 1m hoses as Achim describes, and other times (with LPs) I will use a long hose. However you learn it, just be consistent based on the tanks you are using. For most divers, twin AL80s are ideal, and therefore, one can be donated. Or, if you feel more comfortable with a LH, know that most sm divers are doing it that way, especially in Florida and Mexico cave diving, but donating an AL80 when necessary is perfectly fine as well.
@@CoastalDevelopment I am a recreational diver that has just recently tried out having an 80 on my back and an 80 slung as if it was a stage, I used aluminum tanks and did not notice an imbalance much in the water, It was difficult to stay down in the shallows for my stops, but doable, I will add weight. I have a 120steel that I use with a pony bottle for most of my solo dives, If I used the 120 steel with an 80 slung would that be a reasonable set up? I did ok with two 80s. I want to get into doubles aswell but Im young and dont have the money
Ok I'm all wrong i was loving my 2 x 12l steel + déco in drysuit to carry less weight but they are part of my weight if i need to donate one i need to take some kg of the guys i give it to ... next step i return to 2x11l (alu) + déco with drysuit. Why not diving with 2 long hose (to keep ability to give anytime the gaz we brief) ?
So what you're saying is that a proper sidemount configuration is to have a 1 meter hose on each second stage so that you can always donate what you're breathing? Just trying to make sure I'm understanding correctly
Hello Irene! I'm NOT teaching something else! I just wanted to show that there are other ways to do it. I always dove the short hose version on Sidemount and now it's official by the Boss. For an instructor it should be essential to try different ways to get the best out of a system. Divers in general should think about what they do, not just follow..
Why I wrote, it seems inconsistent: This video was postet 11 August 2016. You write on your website two weeks later "To say the truth, I did not find some reasons why not using a longhose on both sides." Have guys and stay safe.
Well said sir. What works for some may not work for others. Instructors who preach their teachings like gospel need to get over themselves. I do have a question though. How do you prevent entangling the hoses. I guess that’s a trivial thing as it’s an easy fix (still plenty of slack in the lines) after the oog situation is under control. Just wondering how you work around it. Keep up the great work!
How do you attach the inflator hose in the toddy system? because infilator comes traditionally over your shoulder. Do you have to use a long inflator hose?
Kann ich so nicht unterstreichen. Beim tauchen mit Trocki und dicken Unterzieher tauchen sich D12 konkav Flaschen ideal, vom Trim her und allem anderen auch, und ich kenne eine Menge an Leuten in Deutschland, die dies genauso tun. Wüsste nicht was dagegen spricht, oder beziehst du dich hier nur auf Höhle?
Hi Mac, Danke für dein Feedbak. Du hast recht - es gibt zig Leite die es so tauchen und damit glücklich sind. Ich habe nicht gesagt dass as nicht geht. Das ist letztlich persönliche Preferenz und ich würde mir nicht anmaßen zu sagen ob das richtig oder falsch ist. Aber: Per Definition seitens ISE wie ich sie in diesem Video hier: czcams.com/video/4fbhWQLtgrE/video.html - ab Minute 5 gebe, ist das was du beschreibst eben nicht Sidemount per ISE Definition sonder man taucht eben mit den Tanks an der Seite statt am Rücken. Ich möchte hier ganz klar unterscheiden: Es geht mir nicht darum was funktioniert. Es gibt vermutllich 1000 Optionen die irgendwie funktionieren - es geht darum wie ISE das Thema Sidemount angeht und warum wir es so unterrrichten wie wir es tun. Wir gehen von einem ganzheitlichen System aus und da macht es nur so wie beschrieben Sinn.
UTD, GUE, and ISE all trying to standardize sidemount and make it fit into the narrow confines of DIR and coming to different conclusions. Doesn't that sort of negate the whole philosophy of DIR? I am very knew to SM and trying to understand this whole DIR concept.
Könnte man nicht trotz longhose den shorthose abgeben, wenn man daraus gerade atmet? Später kann man ja immer noch tauschen, falls man die zusätzliche Länge benötigt.
Klar kann man das! Ich denke es ging darum, dass die Argumentation (ich tauche sidemount mit longehose weil das DIR ist) nicht aufgeht (weil eben nicht die donation des LH DIR ist, sondern die donation des derzeitigen Atemgases).
DANKE ProPsyDro - das ist genau der Punkt! (wobei das Abgeben des Backup, evtl noch mit Helm nicht wirklich der Renner ist - von er Schlauchlänge mal abgesehen :-)
Hi, danke für die Antwort. Ich verstehe, dass DIR = Regler im Mund abgeben. Aber am Ende war die Aussage ja in etwa "...deshalb bilden wir nur mit 2 shorthoses aus" und den Zusammenhang hab ich noch nicht verstanden, weil ich ja trotz longhose immer den Regler im Mund abgeben kann, oder?
klar kannst du theoretisch immer den regler abgeben den du gerade atmest - aber warum dann rechts longhose und links short? dann würden ja 2 x longhose noch mehr sinn machen, was allerdings schlecht zu konfigurieren ist. 2 x 1 Meter ist ein sehr gesunder kompromiss - die sclauchlönge hat sich auch bei stages bewährt und prozedere / Länge ist immer identisch. der Backup is ja nur 56cm.. damit ist das Gas abgeben selbst ohne bungee schwierig. - aber wie nun schon ein paar mal gesagt - es geht hier ganz klaar darum dass wir als verband einer klaren Philosophie folgen und dass sich diese mit der "augenscheinlich "DIR" anmutenden Longhose Konfig nicht deckt.
YES! I will teach several classes in the US early next year- Course dates and locations can be either followed on the ISE website (www.is-expl.com) or on the ISE Facebook page for the US: facebook.com/groups/1349816818497926/
Sir, I think you were old school German Army and have been around U.S. soldiers. Just your mannerisms and language give you away. Or maybe you watch a lot of American movies.
I completely agree. I never understood the long hose concept on sidemount. As a safety precautions to myself and the other dive I feel just donating the tank is the safest option. No matter what you are going to end the dive anyway.
I am not a sidemount diver,but this makes sense to me.
Very nice explaination. I learned with a long hose on the right tank, but I see your point and might try it out with a short one.
Just great, I agree!
Thank you Achim.
Hi Achim,
Thanks for sharing these videos. They are very informational.
I have a question. If one is on drysuit and uses steel cylinders, obviously the weight of the cylinders are part of the total weight required to stay neutral at depth. If he then donates his cylinders to the out of gas diver, wouldn't he float or be underweighted?
It maybe okay if he uses AL cylinders as the weight will be on the diver but for steel cylinders some of the weight will be coming from the cylinders.
manifold from utd? thx for the great vids and thoughts!
Hey Achim, great vid as always. what's your opinion on SM configurations using an isolatable manifold. therefore being able to stay on the long hose the entire dive and it always being donatable?
+1 for the (UTD style) 'open-valve' isolatable SM which keeping the original DIR philosophy intact and tanks remain balanced without continual changing 2nd stages.
Thank you, i totally agree
What about two long houses in sidemount! One for each thank ..
I sow divers using it .. i am not Criticizing the two long houses configuration, because i strongly believe that sidemount is flexible and perfect individually! If the training and setup works well with a driver, That's it.
However there is always a room to try new things and develop! I guess that's why i am following you .. basically for education and learning..
So, what do you think of two long houses configuration in SM?
Cheers!!
Hi,
Thanks for the video,
Have a question about the part where you give away a tank to your dive buddy. Diving with low pressure steel tanks. If I need to have enough extra weight on my body to be able to donate a tank I would be having ~8ish lbs extra if something happened at the start of the dive.
My question is on how you overcome the weight issue if you dive with steel tanks, or if you are starting out with enough extra weight to compensate for a situation where you would need to give your tank away at the start of the dive?
To me that is a lot of extra weight not to mention some bulk that it will add to compensate for it. Meaning that the tanks are part of my weight system. Which again means I do use a long hose since I cant give away one of my steel tanks, in that regards it is no different from using doubles.
With aluminum tanks it makes more sense since there is not the same weighting issue. Still I use a long hose since that is what I am used to. I do like the points you make.
- I'm not advocating for either, but curious to learn more so I can make smarter decisions!
Thanks
Jacob
i think that what you wrote nicely highlights why steel tanks are not ideal for sm diving.
DroPsyDro Yes, don't dive outside your comfort zone.
This is all fine and dandy if you live anywhere other than the Midwest where you primarily dive cold water, in a Drysuit, with heavy undergarments. I think I’ll keep the long hose and drop the lead.
I'll be learning sidemount this year. So I have no idea how this will work actually work and might have some bad assumption below. Also, I have been using imperial (PSI and cubic feet) rather than metric (bar and litres). I have been watching your videos and like what I have been seeing for the most part. That said...
From what I've read and my instructor has told me, I'll have two 3500 PSI steel tanks (approximately 12 litre @ 300 bar each). I will be switching which tank I am breathing off everything 500 PSI (approximately 40 bar). This way I will be using both regulators equally, more or less. I also won't be heavier on one side or the other, more or less. Here is where I have some questions about your system...
Would you teach how I use the tanks differently? If no, if I give my entire tank and regulator to my buddy in an emergency situation won't that throw off my trim? Especially if my tanks are relatively full. If yes, how would I maintain trim? How would I make sure both regulators are working?
Also, if it is a stressful situation, won't it be easier to have a long hose when trying to figure out how to remove my tank? Cold water, thick gloves. If I could give them a long hose then give myself a little distance while I disconnect the tank from my harness then hand the tank off to them. Won't having a long hose make this a little easier?
I know that my training will emphasize donating air. If I'm on the short hose (left tank) and my buddy signals out of air then I just donate the long hose. If I'm on the long hose (right tank) and my buddy signals out of air, I have to switch back to short hose and donate my long hose (not sure if I donate first then switch to short hose or switch to short hose then donate; will find out in a few weeks). If I practice this on a regular basis, wouldn't it be just as easy as practicing removing my entire tank and regulator?
Thanks for all the great videos and looking forward to a reply.
HI Darrell, thanks for your mail. Unfortunately there is a very simple answer to all of this. (Strictly based on ISE philosophy and my believes) Sidemount as we understand, teach and dive it - does not work with heavy tanks ans it leads to exactly the problems you describe. The weight needed has to be placed on the diver and must not be reached by heavy tanks. So HP steel tanks arevthe worst choice possible for SM diving.
So, yes, you will have an issue if you donate a tank. This said - the "system" if you want to call it like said you have been taught, will work within its limits but will not work in a SM environment where the tanks have to be removed or replaced. Generally, as also said in various videos, the idea of an OOG SM diver is pretty much nonsens and the problem will arrise - if at all, with an OC diver in a mixed team.
Hi Darrell. By now, you probably worked out your problems, but as Achim was saying about donating a tank, with sm, you would want to use aluminum tanks because of buoyancy. So if you were to donate a tank, your trim and buoyancy should not be affected at all. So then, as he said, you can just use two 1m hoses instead of a long hose. That is the ISE philosophy, and it works if you do as Achim says - use aluminum tanks. That said, in places like Florida, where I was cave diving this past summer, EVERYONE is using steel tanks! Most are using HP tanks! This is not a good idea as they are just too heavy for sm and they create other problems (lift, buoyancy, etc.) Yet, LP tanks are a fine choice because their buoyancy characteristics are more similar to aluminum tanks. But still, an LP85 is heavier in the water than an AL80, especially at the end. So in that case, a long hose of 5-7 feet is what you'll need. I dive in different configurations depending on what I'm doing. My rebreather is sm as well. Sometimes I will use two 3m hoses, sometimes (with AL tanks) two 1m hoses as Achim describes, and other times (with LPs) I will use a long hose. However you learn it, just be consistent based on the tanks you are using. For most divers, twin AL80s are ideal, and therefore, one can be donated. Or, if you feel more comfortable with a LH, know that most sm divers are doing it that way, especially in Florida and Mexico cave diving, but donating an AL80 when necessary is perfectly fine as well.
@@CoastalDevelopment I am a recreational diver that has just recently tried out having an 80 on my back and an 80 slung as if it was a stage, I used aluminum tanks and did not notice an imbalance much in the water, It was difficult to stay down in the shallows for my stops, but doable, I will add weight. I have a 120steel that I use with a pony bottle for most of my solo dives, If I used the 120 steel with an 80 slung would that be a reasonable set up? I did ok with two 80s. I want to get into doubles aswell but Im young and dont have the money
Ok I'm all wrong i was loving my 2 x 12l steel + déco in drysuit to carry less weight but they are part of my weight if i need to donate one i need to take some kg of the guys i give it to ... next step i return to 2x11l (alu) + déco with drysuit. Why not diving with 2 long hose (to keep ability to give anytime the gaz we brief) ?
So what you're saying is that a proper sidemount configuration is to have a 1 meter hose on each second stage so that you can always donate what you're breathing?
Just trying to make sure I'm understanding correctly
Yes
Hello Irene!
I'm NOT teaching something else! I just wanted to show that there are other ways to do it. I always dove the short hose version on Sidemount and now it's official by the Boss. For an instructor it should be essential to try different ways to get the best out of a system. Divers in general should think about what they do, not just follow..
Why I wrote, it seems inconsistent: This video was postet 11 August 2016. You write on your website two weeks later "To say the truth, I did not find some reasons why not using a longhose on both sides." Have guys and stay safe.
Well said sir. What works for some may not work for others. Instructors who preach their teachings like gospel need to get over themselves. I do have a question though. How do you prevent entangling the hoses. I guess that’s a trivial thing as it’s an easy fix (still plenty of slack in the lines) after the oog situation is under control. Just wondering how you work around it. Keep up the great work!
How do you attach the inflator hose in the toddy system?
because infilator comes traditionally over your shoulder.
Do you have to use a long inflator hose?
Hi, yes, the hise is 60cm. it goes from the left 1st stage to the inside, underneath the armpit back - over the shoulder and to the inflator.
Kann ich so nicht unterstreichen. Beim tauchen mit Trocki und dicken Unterzieher tauchen sich D12 konkav Flaschen ideal, vom Trim her und allem anderen auch, und ich kenne eine Menge an Leuten in Deutschland, die dies genauso tun. Wüsste nicht was dagegen spricht, oder beziehst du dich hier nur auf Höhle?
Hi Mac,
Danke für dein Feedbak. Du hast recht - es gibt zig Leite die es so tauchen und damit glücklich sind. Ich habe nicht gesagt dass as nicht geht. Das ist letztlich persönliche Preferenz und ich würde mir nicht anmaßen zu sagen ob das richtig oder falsch ist. Aber: Per Definition seitens ISE wie ich sie in diesem Video hier: czcams.com/video/4fbhWQLtgrE/video.html - ab Minute 5 gebe, ist das was du beschreibst eben nicht Sidemount per ISE Definition sonder man taucht eben mit den Tanks an der Seite statt am Rücken.
Ich möchte hier ganz klar unterscheiden: Es geht mir nicht darum was funktioniert. Es gibt vermutllich 1000 Optionen die irgendwie funktionieren - es geht darum wie ISE das Thema Sidemount angeht und warum wir es so unterrrichten wie wir es tun. Wir gehen von einem ganzheitlichen System aus und da macht es nur so wie beschrieben Sinn.
Hi, ok, wenn ich die Definition heranziehe sind deine Ausführungen natürlich nachzuvollziehen. Grüße!
UTD, GUE, and ISE all trying to standardize sidemount and make it fit into the narrow confines of DIR and coming to different conclusions. Doesn't that sort of negate the whole philosophy of DIR? I am very knew to SM and trying to understand this whole DIR concept.
Könnte man nicht trotz longhose den shorthose abgeben, wenn man daraus gerade atmet? Später kann man ja immer noch tauschen, falls man die zusätzliche Länge benötigt.
Klar kann man das! Ich denke es ging darum, dass die Argumentation (ich tauche sidemount mit longehose weil das DIR ist) nicht aufgeht (weil eben nicht die donation des LH DIR ist, sondern die donation des derzeitigen Atemgases).
DANKE ProPsyDro - das ist genau der Punkt! (wobei das Abgeben des Backup, evtl noch mit Helm nicht wirklich der Renner ist - von er Schlauchlänge mal abgesehen :-)
Hi, danke für die Antwort. Ich verstehe, dass DIR = Regler im Mund abgeben. Aber am Ende war die Aussage ja in etwa "...deshalb bilden wir nur mit 2 shorthoses aus" und den Zusammenhang hab ich noch nicht verstanden, weil ich ja trotz longhose immer den Regler im Mund abgeben kann, oder?
klar kannst du theoretisch immer den regler abgeben den du gerade atmest - aber warum dann rechts longhose und links short? dann würden ja 2 x longhose noch mehr sinn machen, was allerdings schlecht zu konfigurieren ist.
2 x 1 Meter ist ein sehr gesunder kompromiss - die sclauchlönge hat sich auch bei stages bewährt und prozedere / Länge ist immer identisch. der Backup is ja nur 56cm.. damit ist das Gas abgeben selbst ohne bungee schwierig. - aber wie nun schon ein paar mal gesagt - es geht hier ganz klaar darum dass wir als verband einer klaren Philosophie folgen und dass sich diese mit der "augenscheinlich "DIR" anmutenden Longhose Konfig nicht deckt.
Do you ever teach classes in the USA?
YES! I will teach several classes in the US early next year- Course dates and locations can be either followed on the ISE website (www.is-expl.com) or on the ISE Facebook page for the US: facebook.com/groups/1349816818497926/
Sir, I think you were old school German Army and have been around U.S. soldiers. Just your mannerisms and language give you away. Or maybe you watch a lot of American movies.
very useful comment - sir! - thanks you :-D (actually you are right:)