yeah, and to me at least they feel very toned down compared to the boys, for example the nerd, girl nerd just reads to me as a cute bookworm who reads too much fanfiction, like, her traits are exaggerated but it feels like she could have depth you know? While guy nerd feels like a shota to me, like, he’s a child in everything but age. Idk that’s just how I felt about it, just to be clear I didn’t read the whole thing, it’s been more than 6 months since I’ve last read it so I could be remembering it wrong, and also that’s just my perspective as a wlw
@@ayl9261 I get you. I honestly love Nerd. I have read the whole thing as well. I honestly feel like Boyfriends just not some people's preference for story. But it's popular. I'm just happy to see cute guys not being miserable because they are gay. Slice of life comics are just like this.
15:20 I've seen quite a few ppl actually say "I HATE the boyfriends they're all sucky tropes! But the Girlfriends are cute uwu queens I love them" like???? They're literally just genderbends of the boys. They are all the same tropes, just Sapphic. Yet they somehow they aren't getting the same fetishization and unrealism shit getting thrown at them??? Make it make sense???
This all comes from lesbian representation in media. Think about it, how many times in a show have you seen two gay guys that aren’t just heavily implied friends with benefits? We see lesbians in media all the time that aren’t just the one stereotype.
I think a big problem is that people can't simply not like things anymore. They have to find a moral failing of the property so that they can feel justified in their dislike and can feel morally superior to those that do.
For all the things that the artist has done, most of it is personal preference, and the attacks on the person is all because ppl don't understand from the mindset of someone living in indonesia with how they take in information, how they interact as an lgbt person, whats acceptable in their circle etc. Yet they are harrassed for not know whats acceptable in western circle. I think its just dumb.
as a gay guy, regarding the comic itself I had put the whole thing under "suspension of disbelief", considering literally every aspect of it seems overblown. I don't read that kind of comic myself, but I definitely see how people would just want something to escape reality into. I didn't really find the comic offensive, but regarding the artist's actions though..... yikes
I used to like this comic because it was colorful and unrealistic and fun, but I came back to it after a while and it seemed really sexualized and pretty weird. Maybe it’s because I heard about the creator, or maybe the WEBTOON original is worse than the canvas. Or I’ve just matured idk
I get not liking happy-go-lucky escapism soft uwu stuff, but there ARE couples like that! I lived with a queer couple like that! They never fought in a yelling or damatic, they were super gentle and communicative with eachother. They would go out of their way to support one another and quite literally "Oh its OK bb let me make you some tea and get you a blanket and we can watch a show and cuddle." Stuff like that is how they made eachither feel seen, understood, and loved. Being soft and caring and extremely anti-drama isn't... bad lol. It isn't even necessarily boring. There can be drama that isn't relationship based. People can have a wholesome soft relationship AND tackle life drama. Other stuff, especially about the author, I get being mad about, but this? Literally just people being soft and sweet to eachother? Very clearly in a way that is mutual and appreciated? Way to say you don't get healthy, supportive relationships lol.
I’m relationship with my significant other is exactly like that, so I really don’t get how is a gay couple being “soft uwu peace and love and rainbows” not the same as a straight couple doing the same on Shoujo manga / anime. Like, oh, okay, I get you’re just tired of the same stupid tropes, but then just go support an artist that actually does something different and help them gain popularity instead. Most artists trying to get a living will follow whatever is the most popular trend, so if you want something different, HELP THE ONES THAT DO GAIN A REPUTATION AND SHOW THERE IS A PUBLIC FOR THAT MARKET
My relationship is like that xd Idk why people think relationships can't be 24/7 cute and supportive. Of course we fight sometimes, but that happens in all kinds of relationships because it's normal. Anyway, bfs is just a webtoon about gay people being cute and sweet, it doesn't need to show fights and bad moments, it's a comfort webtoon for people who just want to watch something cute.
@@T_E_G I'm pretty sure they have a chat abt it and prep is a lot more attentive after that. I don't remember why he was so oblivious, I thiiiiiink it was an "I didn't wanna assume and end up making you unconfortable" situation but that's going off my crappy memory. I know they had a talk and got on the same page tho.
I do wanna adress something that came out from hate that is fucking stupid. It's about Goth and that he's Ace and he has sex with his boyfriends. Yes, people are complaining about it....... So I'll just say what's important ASEXUALITY =/= SEX REPLUSION!! I'm in the ace spectrum, I have high libido and I fluctuate between sex positive and sex replused, so fucking drives me insane when someone actually made this 'criticism' about Goth.
People think that ace people don't have libido, it's literally so stupid. All of us are humans, humans and other animals feel the need to have s*x. Whether you're attracted to people or not...
The amount of times I’ve seen people being really transphobic/homophobic to the creator is really disgusting. They keep misgendering him and whenever you corrected them by saying that Ray is a guy, they still keep calling him a girl or say that the comic is written by a straight girl. Ray may have done some questionable things but that does not give you a excuse to be transphobic/homophobic to him
Agree with you there. We definitely shouldn't do that. Unfortunately I, being a gay man, ended up doing that one time due to me deciding to lash the anger I had over that ONE actually legitimately harmful pile of crap that shall not be named because even saying it is gonna put me into an unstoppable rage & further depression onto Boyfriends. I know that I don't want to do that again & just overall avoid that slimy harmful show for good because that show... it just brought me back horrid memories of my mom abusing me which Boyfriends THANKFULLY hasn't done & will never do because the author knows better than to do what THAT show has done to my mental health.
@@Vixieaudios Hates Jews? Oh no... don't tell me he's a fan of Tomorrow's Pioneers. Yeah calling trans woman "femboys" is already terrible enough, but that jew one just made me think of Tomorrow's Pioneers in that moment because Nick Crowley did a video on it a month ago. EDIT: Phew, it's just him jabbing at the Indonesian government. Well, at least Ray(Refrainbow) has common sense & isn't there to make people legitimately feel miserable about themselves... unlike THAT OTHER RAY.
@@Vixieaudios That still doesn’t mean that you get to be transphobic/homophobic to the creator which is why I said that the creator has done questionable things but that doesn’t give you an excuse to be transphobic/homophobic to him just because he has done awful things
i didn’t know the writer was trans, every time i’ve seen ppl slandering it they say it was written by a straight girl. tbh saying it’s written by a straight girl makes it seem more fetishized
For me, it's not infantilizing, at least not inherently. The artist is a trans gay man from a homophobic and transphobic country, and I live in a homophobic and transphobic area of my country. It is meant as an escape, not an dissertation about gay relationships. If they or I wrote an 'realistic' story, the story would be a closeted person at best, or homophobia hurled at them frequently. Too many people think 'realism' would just be relationship issues, not the abuse that people in homophobic areas still have to face. They forget that there are still people who NEED an escapist story to escape from their reality, because their reality still hates them. A bit mean to teens, but so many of them seem to be in places where full-force homophobia isn't present. If they were, a rom-com that is done in an escapist way wouldn't be the bigger focus than the homophobia keeping them unsafe.
@@basilbat273 if it's for his own enjoyment, then I don't think it matters. If people are taking this info and saying it's totally realistic representation of gay people, then that's their fault, not the author's.
@@basilbat273 From what I've read(and I've read it before getting it's current spot on Webtoons) it isn't really harmful unless you look to make things harmful for the most part. And ultimately a group of people interested in consuming mlm media will always find it. If they like it more than some of the OTHER, actually problematic stories made by assumedly cis straight women I think that is a small win. Also doujinshi is a catch-all term for self-published works. I think you meant Fujoshi, if not you sincerely don't understand the term and need to take a step back and learn real quick.
I do not know why people expect nuanced representation in a comic that has the characters literally named after the stereotypes they portray. Now, if the comic puts out any harmful messages criticism is necessary but I have seen many people disappointed in the lack of nuance this relationship has and I just do not know why people had that expectation in the first place.
It’s the ‘stereotype’ argument that gets me, I always like tropes of bully/nerd wether it’s gay or straight as a wlw, then you have Thomas sanders who does characters that are goth [virgil] nerd [logan] prep [patton] and so on, creatives take archetypes like the four humours like leader types, jokers etc and like to mess with dynamics. The worst part is that protaganists that are white/cis can be whatever archetype or be a jerk or lovable and no one cares but lgbt HAS to be on a pedestal. Has to be ‘good’ rep implying that lgbt can’t be shown as anything other than ‘perfect’ we’re just people, messy humans a story is a story just because it has lgbt elements doesn’t inmedietly make it propoganda.
I've seen too much media that overprides itself on how "diverse" it is when the only actually intresting characters are the straight/white/male (maybe not all three but whoever is not there to tick off a box) because they are allowed to have flaws and personal problems without the writter making sure they are competely perfect so no one gets offended The problem with "representation" is when a character is "representing" a group, any flaws are no longer a character flaw, it's a flaw of the group they are representing, if your Muslim character is kinda a slob, that isn't a flaw for said character, it's a flaw for Muslim people stating they are all slobs, etc. Which is a terrible mindset to put yourself in while writting. I've had both good and bad diverse characters and the good ones are ones I made because I wanted too and not because I felt required too
As a gay guy, i really like the boyfriends webtoon, and it helped me a lot in the process of accepting myself and my sexuality, reading a story where guys fell in love without drama and conflict that were allowed to just exist, made me be with way more peace about this side of my identity, i understand why people dislike it, but i don't think it's fair to hate everyone that likes the comic, i stopped showing support publicly when people started sending me death threats, over a silly romance comic!! People are allowed to dislike it, but i just want to like this thing without being shamed for it
@@evelynn1173 in terms of silly romance, on tapas there’s LifeHappens (a slice of life about the author and focuses a lot recently on her growing family and romance with her husband), any comic by Meriweather (but primarily the succumbs one and Stalker x Stalker), on Webtoons there’s My Giant Nerd Boyfriend, and with manga there’s Place to Place, ojojojo, Love is War, Miss Ueno, or even Ouran High School Host Club (though that can be debated). I haven’t read many web comics recently so most examples of dumb fun romance media is manga I’ve read.
I’m so sorry you received death threats! I have never read the comic but I saw one ad for it that was… off putting. But it’s never ok to send someone death threats, unless they’re like a pedo or a murderer. Any other reason is unacceptable. You just liking a “problematic” gay comic is no reason. People like to pick apart media and try to find dirt on it to make themselves feel morally better than others. It’s getting very repetitive. A lot of creators have done some ducked up shit but so do we. We all have done/said some fucked up shit we regret. So maybe that 10 year old dirt you found or recent mistake some person made doesn’t define that person.
Personally as a gay guy this whole situation disgusts me. Not because I read the comic as 'stereotyping', but the fact that this comic was created by a gay man and people are criticizing the comic for being 'fetish work'. The whole hate mob really shows to me that not even queer creators are safe from creating works that related to ourselves. The people complaining about this comic because of the 'stereotyping' is implying that if you are gay and act in/live in a way that seems stereotyping and you write about it, you are harming gay people. Which is? Who are you to judge how the hell someone lives? Going to be honest, I read Boyfriends for the hell of it but had to stop due to the drama being a constant reminder that content creators can get lambasted for writing stories with themselves being the target demographic. This may sound stupid but this drama is the only thing that causes me panic attacks because of the really fucking terrible implications the hate towards the creator have, and then people who you actively look up to/think are good hearted ccs are also bashing this person. Yeah. The creator has done bad shit. That I won't deny. But if you've seen the people 'criticizing' , you'll notice how close it is to straight up playground bullying. From how I see it, a mob of people is treating this creator like he is worse than MAPS for writing a GAY COMIC pulling from his own experiences as a GAY MAN. Holy shit.
As a bisexual dude who read the comics WAY before I saw any of the ads, I actually really loved them and found them to be a source of tremendous comfort! It’s weird how controversial the comic is outside of the actual art itself!
because most of these edgelords acc havent read the comic properly and are just hating it for the trend, its their poor attempt at being quirky, their criticism is the same old, "it hurts actual gay men!" or "it was written by a woman, real gay men wouldnt do this!" most of it is just really transphobic and misogynistic, like why gender someone's writing? feminine view on stories is not "written by women" men should be allowed to express femininity in what they write in, so it sucks ppl arent destroying a binary
@@Wishtelle jut a little of a personal take on that, if your friends make you field ashamed of what you like you should either bring it up with them and put some boundries or look for better friends :/ you're supposed to be able to feel open an safe with actual friends, imo, but again, just my two cents
@@Wishtelle good to hear that! i also agree a lot with camila over there. i used to get stares and tease when talking bout my interest with my old friends even though its only simple stuff like kpop, anime, manga, fanfic, etc. but now that i've graduated i actually just kept in touch with those that actually appreciates me, they don't mind my random fangirl moments and even often go along with me cuz they also like some of the stuff. i feel like if u keep ur interest hidden then the people who'll actually appreciate u as u are or even have the same interest as u won't be able to see u, so just keep it open! i even plan to use my interests as conversation starter in order to get the right friends right off the bat lol hope u'll found the friends who'll actually appreciate u soon! ^^
@@Wishtelle Same, I kept seeing everyone bashing and hating on the comic, and I originally read it like 2 years ago before the controversy started 😅 I stopped reading it awhile ago, but it’s hard to get back into it when the whole internet is flaming the poor comic. It’s become the new Guardian Spice, if an LGBT piece of media fails to please everyone, then it will be flamed and bashed until the creator quits or deletes their account…
i do not trust the people saying it's forced representation, they're just outing themselves as believing that gay people need to constantly justify their existence and should be reduced to secondary characters
i hate when the term "forced representation" is thrown around when any minority character is present in a piece of media. it almost always manages to be oppresive (-ist or -phobic) in some way
I haven't read the full comic but there are female characters that are basically genderbends of the Boyfriends called the Girlfriends and people pull the hypocrit card by saying the comic is good only because they are in a lesbian poly relationship
Thank you so much for talking about this. As someone who first met and adored the comic back when it was on Canvas and didn't reach so much controversy, I have a slight sentimentality to the comic, even if its no longer for the story itself. It was one of the comics that inspired me to continue on to do comics myself. Though I don't mind the dislike for it- I can understand why- there was a period of time where my feed was filled with so much misplaced hate on the comic, despite my numerous attempts to remove myself from that area. The worst part for me I suppose was the spread of misinformation and both intentional/unintentional transphobia. There were numerous times where I've seen people misgender the author and hate so viciously on the four main characters for the littlest things, (though i will admit the voiceovers in the ads are atrocious). As an Asian who struggles with imposter syndrome when it comes to polyamory, asexuality and trans masculinity, a lot of the comments people said made it hard for me to say anything, especially those that tried to make strict definitions of those labels and hated on the comic for not abiding to them. I dunno, I haven't been a dedicated reader for a very long time, nor do I entirely support the creator, I'm just tired. mostly of twitter. especially twitter. also f**k webtoon ads we all hate webtoon ads
I wouldn’t trust anybody that has/likes Twitter honestly. Twitter is just so toxic and unnecessary. It’s just for dumb people who wanna argue and critique every little thing a person says/does. People are so so dramatic and are so overreacting about this. It’s literally just a dumb Webtoon. When I started reading(I never finished it yet) i enjoyed it. It doesn’t matter your opinion on it don’t send death threats to people, jeez. I swear some people have more Instinct than brain.
Yeah, and everyone was getting mad because Goth is ace but has sex. Like, if they're such experts, how do they not know that Asexual is an umbrella term for people who have a complicated relationship with sex. I feel sex repulsed sometimes, and other times, my libido is through the roof. It's saddening. And it helped me with my sexuality and gender, as well as let me know that it's okay to be asexual in my own personal way.
As a gay Jew, I'm pretty much on Refrainbow's side for all of this. The "antiemitism satire" was sloppy and poorly executed, but I'm not gonna hold a grudge against a random minor with no followers on how well they satirize antisemitism in a semi-public 1-on-1 conversation with a friend. And I'm especially not gonna hold that grudge for 6 years just because they became a micro-celebrity. They addressed it, cleared it up, and if anything I'm relieved that they thought antisemitism was stupid even when they probably didn't know any Jews. As for the comic itself - I think it's fine. In terms of representation I think it's largely a positive, because it portrays a sexually active polyamorous relationship in a wholesome manner that's standard for the genre. The characters are mostly flat but it's not the kind of story that warrants much character development, and while it's nothing incredible I think the story is a nice read when it updates. I don't understand how people can act like the characters are gay stereotypes - these are archetypes I rarely see get to be gay at all. To use your Mean Girls analogy; Prep is a Plastic, while Goth is a Janis Ian. Pre-existing tropes that straight people have all the time in popular media. But the gay guy in Mean Girls, Damian Leigh, isn't a prep like the plastics or a goth like Janis. He's not a nerd or a jock. He's a gay guy - that's his stereotype. He isn't defined by money and status, nor by attitude and aptitude. He's defined by his orientation; obsessed with the glitz and glam of Hollywood, talking about fashion, and constantly using his identity as the butt of a joke. The idea that someone can look at the characters in Boyfriends and see Damien Leigh or Kurt Hummel is infuriating, because they're acting like the homophobic part of those characters was wearing ascots, not that their entire identity revolved around being a sassy, self-deprecating jester.
As a gay guy, I find this comic silly and cute. Yes the characters are very stereotypical, but it’s literally the point ! I wouldn’t say that it’s my favorite thing to read, but I usually have a good time when I do :(
Personally I think it’s ok and kinda cute I just think it’s weird that they say stuff like choccy milk and are all Asian despite only Jock looking even somewhat Asian
something to add about the characters being based on tropes: they have traits that go against their trope. felix isn't actually seen as a cool bad boy, adrian is really cheeky and bold after he gets to know someone, vincent is horrible at being emotionally vulnerable (as far as i'm aware in the "token gay best friend" trope, the character is used as an accessory to the main love interest and gives a lot of relationship advice), and kevin is the most emotionally intelligent out of the 4. thank you for giving a nuanced take on this! whenever i say i actually like the comic i keep getting dogpiled. i'm at the point where i'm blocking anyone who doesn't respectfully disagree.
*exactly! i don't see anything wrong with liking the comic, i used to like it but i dont read it anymore. It's similar to the J.K. Rowling thing I think, where you can like the art yet not the artist.*
I wish people would just stop throwing around the word fetishization. You made an amazing point that if the tables were turned and it was a straight relationship no one would have an issue. I think us having representation in all types of media is amazing! Also being stereotypical and stereotyping are two completely different things. Also the Creator is gay, trans, and Asian. So literally every argument I've seen goes out the window.
Pretty much my problem entirely. This whole petty drama started, once again, because people in a community unaffected by an unproblematic piece of media (except for vapid and shallow personal reasons) attach words they don't know how to properly define in a feeble attempt to disguise their unjustified hatred as them "trying to start a discussion". If they really cared so much about "fellow minorities", they'd have taken two seconds to do their due diligence and think about their own issues from a less emotional and more educated perspective. But apparently being a part of an oppressed community gives you the right to bully someone for making something you don't like (THAT SAID, the creator has still done terrible shit that should be called out, but that's not reflected in the comic, so that's a completely different issue).
And he apologised for saying that word. He recognised it and apologised for it even though it was many years ago, and he never ever did that again, no one is defending his use of it. But Some of you need to know that we all live in different countries where we may not know what is racist and may just imitate it without proper knowledge, esp in non English non American countries. Please keep this in mind before you all start saying everyone is supposed to know this.
So true, like don't ask for representation when you only want certain types of gay people to be represented, like they claim homophobia, but that in itself is homophobic. There really is no winning; it's either not enough or too much.
I'm queer and trans, and I understand where other gay masc ppl are coming from. In my opinion, I think the over-popularization is the stem of the problem, as that is what attracted fujoshis and their "uwu" comments on it. I just take it as a mid-tier, squishy, easy-read romance that I don't actively seek but can find myself melting into the aesthetic- I can relate to some traits. I like the fantasy of seeing myself as a sweet, androgynous man who likes being cuddly with my partner, however detached from reality that is. But I do agree that the author does need to reflect on their actions and perhaps directly connect to the communities they harmed.
This is probably the best take I’ve seen on this. It’s the fact that this is clearly directed towards fujoshis and not actual gay rep that gets me so mad about it. Stereotypes can be written right, but the way it was created was just really wrong. Don’t get me wrong, I like some BL’s like Given and Heartstopper, but their stereotypes (when there are any in the characters) are done right.
@@kurapikakurta1997 You may want to consider how it sounds when you say you're okay with gay stories written by women but not a queer/gay story written by a gay trans man. It's okay to dislike it, and certainly authors aren't infallible just because of their orientation or gender, but it's just a little weird to me to see how many people hate on queer media when it's from a creator whose identity is aligned with their story vs when it isn't. It's like LGBTQIA creators get held up on a pedestal and expected to create everything to perfectly represent every member of that demographic, and if they don't, they get torn down. (Just a general thought that came from reading your comment, not saying that's what you're doing.) Edit: btw, if you're a woman who enjoys any kind of BL media, you're a fujoshi. That's all the word means. It doesn't mean "fetishizing, homophobic straight women" like Twitter uses it.
@@psychotophatcat Fujoshi translates directly to "rotten girl". You may want to consider how it sounds when you refer to any woman who enjoys BL as rotten. Yes, let's push allies away!! /sar Also, no one said anything about the author's own demographic. There's no need; as clearly evidenced by the webtoon, it has no bearing on the quality of the story 💀💀💀 You said it yourself; LGBTQ+ authors are not infallible. Why write an essay and shoot yourself in the foot? Have a lovely day!
@@kurapikakurta1997 Cool, I just said you might want to consider how it sounds when you say it this way. Just because it doesn't align with your own personal experience doesn't mean it's invalid or wrong. Also to clarify, when I used "you" at the end there it was intended as a general term directed at a broad group, not specifically to you. Should've said "if someone is a woman who enjoys BL" instead. Apologies for that poor choice of wording, definitely wasn't intending on assuming anything about your identity.
As a gay trans man, I personally love this comic, I love how stereotypical it is, and how the characters end up breaking away from their own stereotypes. People are mad at the comic for being "over dramatic" "over gay", I'm so tired of people gate keeping the term "gay", there are gay people that exist that act like the people in the comic act, my god. And I also like to separate the content from the creator.
Thank you!, As a former gay man (now identifying as non-binary and bisexual) as a writer who writes about queer stories, boyfriends is a very different genre from realism. It's a nice comic, it's something I read for the hell of it. And I like to separate the work and the creator for this very reason
I’m a polyamorous gay guy, and honestly, after reading the comic, the only criticism I have is it being overly saccharine and cutesy, but considering that the artist comes from a pretty homo/transphobic country, it’s perfectly understandable that they would enjoy telling a feel-good story about a supportive relationship without getting too serious. And even if their background was different, comics like that don’t need to be grounded anyway, as long is they don’t pose as such. This doesn’t mean the work infantilizing, just that it’s meant to be sweet, cute and escapist. At times, the wholesomeness felt too forced and on the nose, and it’s kind of hard to suspend your disbelief sometimes, but things like that are pretty common when people try to intentionally create something cute and fluffy, and I understand the creator’s desire to make the situations feel safe and comforting. The comic is a little annoying (the way most uwu kawaii things are), but I found many things relatable to my own identity and relationships, and the characters are definitely not harmfully stereotypical, just portrayed in a comedic way. Overall, I didn’t love the comic, but I genuinely don’t understand the hate that it gets. But the ads are just ridiculous. If I was the creator, I would be horrified.
I read the comic when I was a bit younger, I didn’t know anything about the author and I liked it. It was wholesome and cute, younger me liked it cause that’s what I wanted, something cute.
As a black person on the topic of people saying the N-word at 14… they should not be held accountable for that shit anymore. Like damn people act like their black friends in high school did not influence their speech. Like I knew what the word meant at 14 and so did my brothers and other black friends who said it. THE N WORD PASS WAS A THING! They had a song called “my n*gga” when I was young. While yes they could have chose not to say it, people around that age trivialized the word, that included black people. To not acknowledge it would be irresponsible.
Not to mention he is from a different country away from America. So he gets and even bigger pass cause it’s likely that he straight up didn’t know that the n-word was a slur.
You’re always so informed. I agree that is just stereotypical archetypes of people. I don’t personally participate in hating on the comic (I don’t like it) BUT I do deeply hate the creator for the use of the word and their “jokes” bc imagine their jokes about a different race. It wouldn’t be okay in that instance, and it’s not okay now
I'm a bisexual male person. I honestly don't care. My morals have jumped out the window, and I think there are many, many people who have done far worse than what refrainbow has done. I don't think he deserves death threats, and I don't think he's a bad person. As for the Webtoon, I like it. I think it's a fun little webcomic that is a great way to escape from reality.
I like his comic but imo he is a bad person because he's said some pretty racist stuff about Jews. And like with all the other stuff adding up ya can't really excuse him.
Yeah same, I also like the comic. I binged it in a day or so because it was just a cozy comic to read. Not everyone’s cup of tea and I usually enjoy in depth stories with complex characters, but this was a fun in between read that I still visit sometimes. You can like a comic and not like or agree with the creator of that comic :// But sending death threats is unacceptable, regardless of what the situation is.
@@evelynn1173 he’s also apparently drawn cp of explicitly underaged characters, and says that the nerd character is a proshipper so.. he’s not the best all around
@@evelynn1173 I'm a Jew and I looked up the comments you're talking about - he was literally making fun of antisemites. A 6 year old comment got taken out of context to make it look like he was being antisemitic, and he had a hard time remembering the context because it had been more than half a decade. That incident was wildly overblown and absolutely not worth all the hubbub everyone was throwing, and absolutely not worth the trauma of my identity being used as a cudgel against someone else.
@@normal6483 I researched it as well and yeah it's fucking stupid he wasn't actually antisemtic he was just talking about the stupid attitude of his country.
I- some how this comment also got deleted. I'm so confused... luckily I copy it before posting. I am a gay guy. stereotypes by the people themselves aren't bad because the person is wanting to represent themselves not the community. I see myself a lot in Prep, he is a representation of me in a way. I feel very happy to see him because I like the positive way they show him! He can wear a skirt and still be a man and act as fem as he wants and still be a man, he can be as whiny as he wants and still be a man. I feel myself go "Oh :) I do that" whenever I see him. Am i a harmful to the gay community for doing these stuff?...No. i am myself so stop putting so much pressure on gay people to not fall in to stereotypes.
I too am a stereotype, but this just isn't it, honey. You know very well you're a lot more than that. Stereotypes are never 100% true, stereotypes are highly exaggerated just like zodiac signs
@@Omikel What i mean is, nobody said it isn't ok to fall on stereotypes, a lot of us do, i mean, just look at internet going crazy on "himbos". What i mean is the characters in Boyfriends all lack substantial personality (notice i said "substantial"), they exist for the sole purpose of being in their cutsy kawaii no-problem relationship. You are not like that, honey. I too wear a skirt and i too am a man, but i'm much more than just that and i believe you are too. You are selling yourself short if you can only identify yourself as a pastel kawaii soft boy
@@ghostwizard7597 I do agree with you they are not very substantial characters, I think that's done by meaning to make them fit into the stereotypes and make it more obvious. And no just because I can see myself in a very bland and non substantial character doesn't mean I'm selling myself short. I look at the fictional characters and know that they are not real, what they have is not possible because there will be bumps in the road in real life. But seeing characters who are stereotypes just being happy with no problems makes my brain take a brake and just read, not having to think about what they are going to do because i already know what they are going to do by their nicknames. I identify myself as a lot of stuff but one of them is not pastel kawaii soft boy even though it sounds very cool. Some things in Prep's character does not aline with me and that's fine, I can still see my representation in his character and that's all that matters for me.
As much as I agree with the criticism that's been floating around Boyfriends lately, one thing that I'm kinda ashamed of is the fact that I kinda like the character's visual designs. Like, I know some people don't like the way the colors go together and stuff, but personally, if this was an alternate timeline where the creator and webtoon weren't so controversial, I might've even enjoyed drawing some of the characters, just because their designs so visually appealing to me. IDK if this is an unpopular opinion, but I felt like putting it out there.
As a trans polyamorous man myself I never had a problem with Boyfriends, in fact it was one of my favourite comics for a while until the internet had to go and ruin it for me and many other fans. I can completely understand why a lot of gay men don't like or appreciate the comic, it is indeed stereotypical and has an aquired taste in humour. However the backlash thats blown up recently I find to be completely unfair. Part of why I love the comic is because I find it relateable. Because despite people not liking stereotypes, there are actual real people who fit stereotypes and shouldnt have their reprisentation squashed in favour. Its true, not all gay men are cutesie or codependant or even cringe, and there should be rep for gay men of all sorts of personalities just like any other human, but attacking this one type of person has hurt me personally quite a bit. To hear everyone shitting on this comic that shows my kind of personality and experience feels like an attack on me as a person. The comic is flawed, yes, but the stereotype reason is being attacked too much.
That's kind of the only way you can enjoy her videos, if you're only watching the art and not listening to or understanding the nonsense she spews for half an hour.
I was iffy about this comic until you said it was by a gay trans man. HOW is a gay man fetishizing/infantilizing gay men, as one. People DON'T EVER say this about straight people doing this. Maybe I'm especially angry as a gay trans man (who fits into so many stereotypes) but damn. EDIT: Also needed to add, individual artists are not responsible for good representation. If it was a company, i would see peoples point, but this is someone making a lighthearted comic on their own. Jfc
LGBT+ people can fetishize other LGBT+ people even from their own group. Alot of it stems from internalized stuff that they pick up from a lot of online communities. Like when you're in a space that gives you a silver of validation that the rest of society , but that same space expects you to be their "kawaii softboi bean" you began to feed into it just to continue to have that support and validation.
The fetishisation comes from the people that read it. A stories intended audience sets up what the story will be. Just because I’m a gay trans man doesn’t mean I can’t write a bad trans character.
I’m a black person who has made multiple black characters in the past, they were bad characters, it happens. You’re not immune to it just bc you are part of the community you represent but I get where you are coming from, I mean in general
Honestly don't really care what people think of it, people can enjoy what they want. But as a gay Trans guy who doesn't fit into alot of stereotypes I just can't relate to all the characters being owo soft bois. Not everyone is this perfect innocent bean who does no wrong. Some people can relate, and I'm not saying that no characters should be like that, but I just wish there was some diversity in the personalities. Just because it isn't my cup of tea, though, doesn't mean it's a bad story. Some people can relate and do like it, and it's okay to have different opinions! If people (including myself) don't like it, just don't read it. It's not that hard ^^ Also don't take me opinion as expert opinion, I've only read a few episodes and it wasn't my thing.
Personally, i just think the comic just gives off chronically online vibes but i dont think thats a basis to attack anyone. Although an argument can be made about how the infantilization and stereotyping of minority groups in media has real world repercussions, i hardly think a single obscure webcomic that most people don’t even know exists is threat.
I'm overall really tired of the overpolicing of representation. One of my sapphic favorites on Webtoons has been "Savior" and many people have the OPPOSITE problem, that the characters are all pretty screwed up. But they're well written great characters! They are not SUPPOSED to be healthy the story is majorly about trauma but it's done well without any of it being just "gay trauma because gay" or any of them being reduced to stereotypes. Even the most stereotypical MC, the "evil" femme fatale character, has more depth and sympathetic emotional issues than I expected. I've DATED women like her, yes it was toxic but I RELATE to sympathizing with and loving red flag laden women like that and her toxicity is never framed positively. She's just framed sympathetically when she's vulnerable, no matter how much you hate her when she's being a b*tch. There's the complexity the representation police ordered, aaaaand they hate it. It's bad because she's not a good gf. Like, no sh*t that's the plot. That's the story. But we apparently can't have that either so instead of pigeonholing LGBT people into stereotypes, they must be pigeonholed based on "good representation" which isn't good representation. "Bad Representation" as a concept has devolved into just cringe culture with a moral cover thrown on top. It's just hating on something because you find it "cringe" with extra steps.
This kind of outrage is why I usually avoid writing anything out of heteronormative or asexual as those are the acceptable things for me to write it seems. So much outrage and hate over something that might just be shitty writing
It's such a challenge. Because authors shouldn't need to go to years of therapy in prep to publish their works when people can and will just not like it and then suddenly try to "find a reason" for it. But also Authors NEED to keep writing representation because we need it and we need to pave the way for those who come after to face LESS backlash. It's hard and there is no right answer other then.... People on the internet, even sometimes the people who are all about accepting others, will never assume best intentions. And it sucks.
@@T_E_G and what exactly constitutes 'good' representation?? it seems like, no matter what, there's going to be backlash for it either way. different people have different ideas of good representation, and it's a lot to ask of individual authors to make sure their diverse characters and themes are completely perfect to showcase to the public. some stories call for complex, flawed characters, and those characters might just happen to be queer. some stories call for lighthearted characters with not a lot of depth, and they might just happen to be queer. there's no one-size-fits-all 'good' representation, and you can't just expect everyone to know how to represent these characters and themes perfectly for the audience while also having it fit well into the overall story of course, they should take responsibility when their work is outright damaging and offensive, and criticism is always welcome to any work, but i just feel like 'just write good representation!' is such an oversimplification.
people hold queer content to a standard that they don't hold straight content, even if its a queer content creator telling the story that they want to tell
@@T_E_G Imagine if someone made a straight love story and people were like, "Not ALL straight people act like that. This is very bad heterosexual representation!" Sounds weird, right?
THANK YOU FOR TALKING ABOUT THIS!!!! I literally saw a TikTok of women straight up Call a wholesome scene sesggual, They were literally just having fun on the beach, and they were literally like "Ewww this is disgusting, it's so sesggual!" And I was like I'm sorry but how is this scene of them having fun on the beach, and yes I got pissed and said out of anger "Y'all are either Dumb, Homophobes, or straight up haters, but then y'all go and watch the most inappropriate and sesggual gay, lesbian, and straight h3nt82, but you judge this, which is more comically and wholesome than the rest!
What’s funny is that the official webtoon instagram account has younger people directing it (as far as i know) and it’s doing so much better! There’s funny memes, relatable videos, and content that actually relates to the comics themselves. Some even made by users of webtoon themselves!
I wanted to like boyfriends. poly gay rep, that isn’t just fetish shit, is important! but honestly, it was just badly written. like the adds capture a lot of the writing perfectly.
Yeah. Coming from the perspective of a gay and trans comic writer, stereotypical characters and scenes can be done right, but the writing is just wrong.
As an old queer person, my biggest complaint with the influx of lgbt+ media over the last, idk... decade? is that the community is so desperate for inclusion that we accept any representation regardless of how terrible, cliche, or fetishy it is. And there is nothing more fantasized about than the idealized BL trope, which has had such a large, terrible impact on gay media that it's essentially impossible to make anything cute that depicts gay men without a comparison being made. Even if Boyfriends is completely unproblematic, because of its predecessors, it's kinda doomed to receive harsh criticism.
Its controversial topic of boyfriends its reminders me how people reacted Netflix's animated show "Q-Force" 1st trailer Except Q Force is adult animated action/comedy. And boyfriends is slice of life / romance In case of Boyfriends: Its really is Author's escapism: Where there's no drama, no angst, no love triangle or rivalry (Or their case: love square) . Just 4 cute boys being loving each other. Not my cup of tea but I guess its someone makes happy after bad day and just want some gay fluff
I've never really took the boyfriends comic that seriously, i only make fun of it because I think it's funny, the ads are weird and also I just don't especially like the characters (especially nerd holy shit he's so fucking annoying) but that's about the extent of my 'hate' for it, other than that I'm pretty indifferent to everything else. Though, i do really like the art style and how goth is treated like a typical gay man even though he's trans if that's anything
Thank you for coming at this with so much nuance. When I heard about the drama surrounding Boyfriends, all I really heard people saying was, “It’s not representative of actual gay relationships, it’s so stereotypical, etc.” and when looking at the comic art style, it seemed kinda obvious that it was targeting a very specific audience, so when I heard these vitriolic comments on the comic on how it had “all white characters” and was just the worst thing to exist with nothing positive to offer, I was very confused, especially when the titles characters are referred to by their tropes, rather than their names. I just didn’t get it, I’m speaking exclusively about the comic. For me, it just seems like the internet jumping on a gay man making the representation they wanna see, and I’ve noticed it’s always a catch 22 whenever creators from marginalized groups make the rep they wanna see. Either it’s “too stereotypical and doesn’t relate to the gay experience,” and I’m not the type to believe all representation has to be good representation, if it’s not harmful and the product itself is just feel good, why’s it matter? There’s actual harmful stuff out there, why’re we focusing on a feel good slice of life comic about college kids named after their stereotypes discovering themselves? All in all, great video!! 🙌🙌🙌🙌
I was one of the unfortunate souls who saw the ad before the comic. These ads were awful and gave me scurvy everytime I saw them. As soon as I recover from the last one I'll try to read it and see for myself 🤣
I like how you explain the definition of the words being used in the accusations, both sides of the argument, different parts of the argument, your own opinion, and as well as anything else related to the topic. It's very clear and you can understand it easily. Plus you're not screaming or spitting into the mic like some other people who talk about stuff like this.
As a pansexual person...Oh boy do I know better then anyone why some people are upset with this. As my sexuality is very much sexualized and is often boiled down to me just being a sl*t/ wh*re and that because im pan I must 100% want a poly relationship or a 3 way, when Im honestly not comfortable with either. I have met gay men that are very shy and soft but I've also met gay men that are strong willed and like guy shit. I've even met gay men who are stereotypically mean and nasty who use their identity like a shield. I can understand the upset, as depicting gay guys as just cute uwu boys is very normalized and 'desired'. Same with , mean gay guys in media being almost Romanized and seen as funny. The representation they get is either vanilla and over saturated or could be seen as bad and dehumanizing. We don't have enough representation of characters just being people that are also gay. It's always dramatized to bring interest. It's kinda like how lesbian women have to be butch. It just isn't true and it's degrading as hell to just categorize sexualities as an umbrella stereotype of what they MUST be
I’m pansexual too, and I’m hoping to get into a polyamorous relationship when I get older, but I know that I don’t just want multiple partners just for sex I want an actual relationship too.
Also pan, and old enough to have lived through the creation of pansexual as a seperate identity from bisexual. The fact everyone thinks we're just inherently into poly and open relationships is the bane of my existence. Especially since poly is "in" right now so everyone thinks they have to try it wether that want to or not. I dip my toes in many social circles and the amount of breakups I hear about on a daily basis because a partner wants to try poly and then gets jealous just... astounds me.
@@ItsYaBoiV I’m not pan, but I keep seeing people make stories like that for their characters or even actual people. I hate the fact that people make it a trend / bad story. I hate people fetishizing these types of things or not understanding not everyone of that gender or sexuality is the same. Hopefully this makes sense I don’t want this to come off as rude in some way
Did you actually read the comic though? Because it's really not problematic. It's literally an escapism comic written by a trans, gay man from a homophobic country.
You know what’s so funny? I haven’t read the comic and don’t or haven’t ever wanted to read is bc it just sounds cringey. But ever since I heard about all the “allegations” or whatever of being unrealistic, I kinda just sat there and thought, “isn’t slice if life supposed to be unrealistic?” Idk I just think someone didn’t like the comic and decided to throw things out of proportion.
As a gay trans man, I don't feel ultimately there isn't any ill intent in the comics themselves. Humans will read things where they want to, and while I personally haven't read any of the comic in context... what I have seen has just come off as a cutesy slice of life comic about gay men in a poly relationship. For me, nothing comes off in a way that I personally would find offensive. But that's me and my world view and perspective, so I can't speak for what someone else may see and actually find offensive. When it comes to these issues, we have to remember that as individuals, we have our own unique perspective to take into account. In the end, a willingness to talk to and listen to one another to come to a healthy compromise is the best way forward in my honest opinion.
Personally I think this comic is cute, I don't really know why people think it's "fetishization", like, they're young adults and they like to do "things" often. But like most people in relationships do, and yes the characters are written stereotyped, but they're meant to be stereotyped. As a gay man, I really don't think it's bad, I really enjoyed reading it and learned what poly relationships are by reading this webtoon. I understand that people find it bad and don't like it, it's normal. If someone hates it, that's fine too. But it's not a bad webtoon, it's silly and cute, and some of us like that stuff, even when the characters are just stereotypical stupid characters doing and saying stupid stuff. I think hating on a webtoon when it's not really bad is not the right thing to do, and some just hate it for no real reasons. I liked it when i was reading it, but now, all the hate toward this webtoon made me avoiding it, i don't know if i can still enjoy this webtoon without behing shamefull. And i don't think i will be abble to read it again now, 'cause all i see on Instagram, CZcams and Tiktok is people hating on a webtoon i used to really love because it used to make me feel valid and happy. That's really depressing to see all the things that used to make me feel good are hated or just really bad now. (Sorry for the mistakes, english isn't my first language :/)
I will always have a special place for this comic in my heart. As someone who had been repressing their gender dysphoria for so long to end up relating so much to one of the characters and then find out that their trans I broke down realizing I could have the kind and loving relationship I want and be myself.
The first time I saw Boyfriends I was like "oh I never see poly representation that doesn't just look like it's being sexualized this might be good" but then reading it I just couldn't enjoy it. It still felt iffy. It just felt like majority of the comic was s3x, stereotyping, awkward back and forth, and an occasional talk of their college life. It felt like the only personalities of the characters that were expanded on were one thing they like and then their feelings towards the other characters. I also haven't read much of it so I don't know, but of the 60 episodes I do remember reading, there was barely any background on the characters themselves, their families, friends, stuff like that.
This controversy made me realize that I just have an inexplicable hatred of super cutesy and sweet and nice characters. Well maybe not inexplicable. A lot of issues stemming from self hatred and jealousy that I've been dealing with for years. uH ANYWAY awesome video!! your research is so well done and youre very well-spoken and your art is just *chefs kiss*!
I'm a bi polyamorous trans man and I like this comic, it's not what I usually read, but I like to check it from time to time, it's honestly really innocent and harmless, I've discussed this topic with my friend who's a bisexual cis man and for both of us the massive anger towards this comic felt unreasonable. Boyfriends gives me the vibes of those simple and relatable comics of the 2010s who would start with a random prompt that was supposed to be a one-shot but blew up and became a full story, you know, the ones you'd usually find in tumblr and gain a reasonable following. That's why I like it, it reminds me of simpler times. I feel that people from the community have been way too harsh lately, specially at smaller creators trying to tell stories about their own identities, since they are more accesible than a celebrity or someone from a big corporation. I mean, it's good that we're asking for better representation and not just settle for crumbs of it... But I think that sentiment should be directed at corporations, not small creators of or own community who happen to get lucky and have their stories be noticed. And well, webtoon giving bad ads to their originals doesn't help at all. As someone who's currently writing a comic I'm pretty scared that, if it gets big, I might face the kind of harassment that Ray has been receiving, specially being a trans person on the internet. There are a lot of people who are misgendering them and treating them as a straight girl who's fetishizing gay men and... That's horrible tbh. It doesn't matter if they've made mistakes or did bad things in the past.
18:00 i would just like to point out that along with being 14 it was also 9 years ago aka 2013, which, if you remember, the internet was a lot more edgy and popular white youtubers at the time did use the n word which, while not an excuse, does give more credence to them not understanding that it wasn't just part of american english
Hey there! Trans gay guy here. Thank you for tackling this. I have been reading the comic and thoroughly enjoyed it and showed it to friends. I love the comic but I can see how others may not like it. Sadly, slander of the webcomic has invaded my feed despite my hardest attempts to wipe it off so I've been unable to read without feeling bad. I do wish you talked about the proshipping as despite my attempts to find it, I cannot seem to find the proof about it but Im sure I can find it somewhere else. The video was great and I think you did a good job going through the nuance of the comic part.
It's just a very short interaction with a fan. The fan replies something like "nerd gets kinkshamed on the internet" and the author answer (quite jokingly but many ppl take it like canon and true for some reason) is "nerd bf proshipper vs nerd gf antishipper arc". That's all I could find, but I thing ppl also add the draing of the bts as proshipper even when the author was still a minor at the time but anyway. Also I'm from a place that jokes about everything and are known for doing that, so I'm sorry if I'm being a bit insensitive with the topic, I'm not use to internet culture that much, at least from the U.S.A. 😅😅😅
I really like the comic, but I don’t like the “infantilization” argument. I’m currently in college and yeah, my friends and I use goofy words or can act childish. The characters are all in their early 20’s, it’s normal how they are acting (though played up cause it’s a comic). I really don’t get why this one gets so much hate when I’ve seen a million straight webcomics or animes that are essentially the same thing. Not every mlm story needs to be great representation, or to talk about homophobia/transphobia, or experience hardship. We can have mindless fun gay media, just like how there’s mindless fun straight media.
I think boyfriends was a good idea badly executed, especially when webtoon took out the ads, but it's also somewhat entertaining. I mean, if you can be a little uncomfortable to read sometimes and there are things that would have been better explored, as long as we realize that most gay men don't act like that, the story is entertaining and enjoyable. I liked how Celestia approached the subject, she gave very good information and I really liked listening to her :D. and also, too bad that the creator has so much controversy :( because if he hadn't done those things maybe this would have happened as a surreal slice of life webtoon and that's it, but well this world is weird never expect normal things to happen without having his weird side.
This comic aint a documentary it's a meme and people r taking it too seriously they should be getting wooshed for that. Where did it it say "this is a 100% accurate representation of real story of real gay people irl" It's just a comic with some silly fantasy anime logic where the characters act weird. If you think its supposed to depict irl people that's your own assumption and that means you should get mad at your own stupid assumption not the comic lol
theres no need for "realizing gay people dont act like that", i cant make a quirky or excentric character gay? no one says anything when theyre cishet cause its abvious theyre just a quirky fictional person, im tired of the overpolicing of the ways queer people can write themselves and exist, its scary to post your own art now
@@MelissaBezerra any group like that is so sensitive now smh this is why people are terrified to draw any characters gay or black or sumn cos they will get criticized to hell if it aint perfect
The first time i read boyfriends, way before it became a controversial thing, i thought it was just, pretty cute. Nothing special, just, a neat romance comic with cute colourful art. And then after a few months everyone was talking about how it was the worst thing ever created and satan himself wouldn't accept such a disgusting piece of garbage and the art was horrible and blahblahblah. And i was like, huh?? What did i miss?
On the topic of people infantilizing Elliot Page after the Met Gala, I've seen plenty of cis gender men also get infantilized in the same way, people like Eddie Redmayne, Karl Jacobs, and other men who have played a quieter , more gentle character in media or put out a very soft or gentle personality on their own social media. They'll get called things like "bean" and "cinnamon roll" and all round most people just treat them as cutesy boys. This in no way disregards that Elliot must have felt like shit to be treated as "less than a man" after he publicly came out and transition. That probably felt terrible and so invalidating. But infantilization like that is definitely not solely used on trans men, it's used on men who have played or put out a soft, gentle, sweet personality.
I loved this comic so much when it was on canvas. I understand it’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but I have a lot of sentimentality connected to it, as it helped me come to terms with who I am. I think those who dislike it are valid in their opinion, however I believe it has just been blown out of proportion. When I read it (lost interest after the transfer), I understood that it was all just for fun and a way to have a wholesome moment. I didn’t think it was a reflection on how real people are or anything like that. I get that people are upset with the “uwu gay smol bean”, anyone would be, but the thing is that it’s not only the four of them that are soft and cute, EVERYONE else is established to be cute, they just happen to be the focus because they are the main characters. Tldr; people are valid in their opinions, but also both sides need to shut up sometimes. The author clearly just made a cute little comic and it’s not their fault it randomly blew up like it did.
as a demi bisexual I can understand how someone could be mad about the comic, but they have to know that stereotypes are used in every gender. flip the main cast around to female you get the typical nerdy girl, the moody goth, the popular jock, and the rich preppy girl. I understand how the creators actions are bad and could and did hurt peoples feelings, but being told that "if you read boyfriends and are okay with the stereotypical gay guys trope you should die!" well? why aren't they saying the same things about "mean girls" or "heathers". People are upset that the fact prep is the preppy rich boy and say that it hurts gay representation when you should also be saying the same about Regina George. Not even blonde is a dumb blonde, and not every gay guy is defined by one normal stereotype. I can't speak for the gay community, what I can speak that for me, boyfriends isn't as bad as people make it out to be. It takes normal stereotypes mostly placed in heterosexual media and makes it about a group of four boys who are all in love with one another in a sweet, loving, and respectful relationship. i'm not saying every gay relationship is all puppies and rainbows, but isn't that somethings that everyone would want? a love so pure and trustworthy that you never get out of the honey moon phase? I would love a relationship like that, but I understand its not the same for everyone. if I made anyone upset known its my own opinion and that im only going off of what I think and feel. I've read some comics and figured out that yes it is hurtful and i understand, but growing up in a society where those stereotypes man or women is basically everywhere I can't help to think it's more of a cute take on bad representation. thank you for listening. (know I do not condone the artist using vulgar language and creating art pieces of two real life people okay. all im saying is that too me, the comic isn't so bad)
Honestly….. I was expecting more. The controversy about the comic itself feels more hollow and overblown than I was expecting. As you said, it’s pretty clear that nothing in this comic is meant to be seen as realistic. It would probably be a hell of a lot more depressing if it was, considering how openly reviled poly relationships are by many people throughout the world, and there is no truly “realistic” representation of a non-traditional relationship dynamic without also covering the backlash and hardships that come with being in that sort of relationship. If you write a story about a non-traditional relationship (and I mean ANY relationship that qualifies as non-traditional, such as mixed race couples and relationships between a disabled person and an able-bodied person, not just lgbtq+ ones), set it in the real world, and make everything about it true to real life, but then completely ignore the outside opposition that those kind of relationships face, then that defeats the entire purpose of making the relationship itself realistic and comes across more like cherry picking. My only real complaint about the comic is that it’s pretty boring, and I lost interest quickly. Now, the controversy around the creator themself feels a bit more legitimate. Not death threat worthy by any means, but with more clear and definitive reasons for others to be upset. Regardless, this isn’t as horrifically offensive as what I was expecting.
Thank you so much for being nice about it, people are so quick to react and everyone’s so mean and I don’t get anything from it Even I myself fell for misinformation, that the creator is supposedly homophobic and transphobic I really appreciate you just sharing the facts
Critics: We need more comics of gay/queer relationships done by the community. Also critics: Not in that way! Basically it's always the same. Comics/writing/art is hard. One cannot make everyone happy, so if it makes the creator happy in either making it or financially doing it, it's the only thing the creator has to make happy. People need to try doing their own to see how hateful the internet is. I think that there might be a idea with the webtoons ads as they are all horrible. Perhaps it is to create controversy as controversy generally sells better than being just good.
18:32 soo... if someone thought something was ok at 14 that means their apology 10 years latter is meaningless? Ok cool, got it, no growing or changing aloud. I'll just re adopt all the nonsense I believed at 14 into my world view. I thought it was fine then, so the things I say now as an adult and what I have learned in the mean time do not matter, it is what i did at 14 that really counts and shows my true character. This makes perfect sense and is a reasonable standard to hold people to👍🏼😊🤝🏽
Thank you SO MUCH for this video. Literally argued about this topic with people a few days ago, and a thing a lot of people tend to miss with the "harmful stereotype" argument is that a lot of people actually act like that, and calling the boyfriends cringy and weird is really detrimental to all the men who felt seen with this comic. Someone literally told me "thank you for being the type of person i get stereotyped as", as if the problem was cute flamboyant gays existing, when it actually is homophobes pushing these tropes on people who don't identify with them. I feel like a lot of loud Boyfriends haters are actually younger gay boys who still struggle with internalized homophobia and want to be taken seriously by distancing themselves from stereotypical gays as much as they can. Like, just let us enjoy a cutesy silly romance where everyone is kind with eachother, I don't need every lgbt+ media to be dramatic and traumatizing
Thank you for clearing this up for me. I was very naive and believed Twitter people that the author and comic were the WORST things to exist. I generally, do not go on webtoon anymore. I just.... Can't. I just don't really like the platform and the comics have not caught my interest in some time. This is on my part though, because I WAS barley on the app when I had it.
As a black person, I don't get why they're getting so much flack for using a slur nearly a decade ago if they've shown growth since then. 10 years is a lot of time to learn and it seems like they haven't used it since, so I don't see the outrage over this
You took the words out of my mouth when you started talking about where the people in the LGBTQ+ community are only seen in certain serotypes where their sexuality defines them as a person when that is only one aspect of their lives because of the media and lack of representation. (Disclaimer: I am not in the LGBTQ+ community but I know and is friends with people in the community and I watch how those people act and how other react because of what they identify as) (Disclaimer: I'm not saying that this is how all people in the community are treated or seen, this is just from personal observations)
Thank you for treating this topic with the nuance it deserved. The only problem I had was when you spoke about someone "needing to know better at 14". Not everyone grows up in the same environment, or will be exposed to the same information. I come from a racist, homophobic and transphobic household and didn't get the information I needed to become a more sensitive person up until recently. If we keep holding people's wrong doings when they were young like a knife to the neck we are not allowing someone to grow. So long as someone proves that they have indeed changed and stop saying those things in public or private the internet should not hold a knife to their neck.
Hi, I just wanted to say thanks for making this video. I didn't know a single bit of this and didn't even know Webtoon had made ads of this comic so thank you. I liked that you were willing to step back at some points when you didn't have the proper viewpoint to make a judgement; so many people like to talk for other demographics and I believe acknowledging when you can't make an informed statement on something is very mature. Thank you for your research and work, I appreciate it!
Thank you for making this video! Im really glad someone addressed this from multiple sides of what is going on I absolutely agreed that the comic itself seemed to be just a slice-of-life enjoyable story in many ways I liked a lot for a long time And then external things, such as the ads or the creators actions, had an influence over my perception of it And it seemed many other people's as well Discounting the fact that those problems weren't directly linked with the content of the comic, when the work itself didn't seem to be where they were coming from I think its important to accept, respect, and acknowledge the issues surrounding this work And also that the comic is separate from them in a lot of ways (and some MAD COOL artwork in the speedpaint B))
Im not gay but bi so i don't know how much my opinion counts so please take my comment lightly, i kinda liked this webtoon, not becouse of the sexy scenes or something like it, but becouse it was a pretty wholesome relationship and funny sometimes, the artstile was cute and such. I don't really care about the realism, becouse i was there to read to get detaced from reality, if there was really realism those guys would get homophobic insult every 2 episodes (sadly, but at least here where i live it's like this)
HONESTLY, I mean the “spicy” scenes are nice, the part I enjoy the most is the comedy and just the wholesome interactions that make me say “aww” or “omg that’s so cute”
17:55 hey quick note on that! i am not defending them for saying it in any way but as someone whos from a non english speaking country as well, especially one with a lot less diversity than america, it is very common for people of younger ages here to not grasp the meaning of certain slurs and thus use them lightly. sadly, in a lot of non english countries, the use of words like the n-word is still very common and normalized. on top of that, they might have been fans of people who further normalized this ""edgy"" behavior. fortunately my american friend educated me about the implications and history and why i should never say it at a young age, but others might have not been! before someone comments saying that im wrong, pls remember that different people have different perspectives and experiences and you may be from a more progressive community. again, not defending their (or anyone who says that) actions but just giving my insight from my perspective ^^
Thank you for the more calmer approach. I’ve personally stayed away from the drama for as much as I could, as I’ve (even if my time on web toon is reduced to maybe once a month by now) enjoyed reading it, especially during the quarantine. It’s always made just a stereotypical, fun and pastel impression on me so seeing so many people mad at it kinda confused me. As I’ve said, I wasn’t aware of much more than the stereotyping being a problem to many. Seeing the problems people have with thr comic itself laid out like that, I can honestly say that it’s not something I care about too much. Especially Goth has been a favourite of mine, since he’s not only mlm rep but also a trans guy. I rarely see trans characters, even rarer in such uplifting and simply cute media. It’s made me feel like liking that stuff and being a trans guy is okay, and i really appreciate that. The things with the author kinda stopped my enthusiasm that it wasn’t that serious of a drama tho. I’m glad they apologised and showed where he went wrong, tho the part about drawing/writing abt real people still weirds me out. All in all tho, thank you for making this video! I’ve been worried to support something potentially harmful but I’ve been too emotionally invested with the comic (it’s helped me through some of the 2020 struggles, and i was able to better connect to a classmate over it,…) to look at people at war with it. Please have a great day, amd again thanks for informing me
I can't say much about the n-word thing as I am not black, though I can see what the author meant when they said they didn't realize the harm of it due to not being a native english speaker. I don't know how it is in Indonesia, but in my country a lot of slurs aren't seen as offensive by the general public. I don't see the n - word used often, but when it is, no one finds it to be a bad thing (probably because of how rare it is to meet a black person, I've literally only met one in my whole life). Most of my peers are in the age of 13-16 (about the same age the tweet was made) and are genuinely confused when they see the n-word considered as racist, since it doesn't really have any history here.
@Marwrob I hate how people really do forget that! Not every person on the internet was born or lives on the US!!! Not everyone has the “common sense” they have because we didn’t grow up with that!!!
I come from a place near and similar to indonesia, and our only contact with stuff like that back in our days was rappers on mtv, so the kids back then will all emulate, there's no one to correct them, and no one's ever seen a black person in real life. Furthermore, if this was very long ago before the artist got famous and had more global eyes on him, he could think he can say whatever he wanted. But one thing i realized about twt is that its so american, there's SO many things i didn't even think were racist. So before you jump on ppl, don't assume they know. If they recognise and apologise, thats good. The world is so wide, I beg ppl to stop using american lens to judge ppls words.
@@lepetitmonster8737 it is wrong for him to say it and understandably ppl are all in their right to be angry. But if someone has changed since then(esp since this was said 7 yrs ago) and learned, i believe ppl should be given a chance, given how they were brought up. It's natural not everyone knows whats offensive in the whole world but at least there is CHANGE upon realizing
on the nsfw of minor irl bts members: i think its important to remember that yes, its okay for a minor to view another minor sexually, but the problem arises when they upload that content to the internet. in the usa at the least, its still classified as cp no matter who made it, ESPECIALLY when its of a real person. the law also includes fictional minors in art/writing/any digital form, by the way. speaking purely legally, its illegal to have uploaded it to the internet no matter the age. itd be different if they had kept it private.
I really didn’t get the reason behind people hating this comic (like making those slander memes and stuff like that) since I was given no context at all and it happened so suddenly, so I’m glad I found this video. I really appreciate it.
When it comes to storytelling and representation, one must understand that what makes a certain depiction harmful is lack of other diversity. Example 1: you can have a campy, fem, gay man. These types of gay men *exist* in real life openly and closeted. You just can’t have that be the *only* way you represent gay men. If you have a fem, gay man, a bear, and a super masc, gay man then there is nothing wrong with having one gentleman being fem. That’s good representation because you have the spectrum; you aren’t representing gay men as uniform or as there being one type of gay man Example 2: in terms of character deaths, the same goes. If you only have the only gay character die, there is an implication there about how one views gay people, intentional or not. If there are several gay people and one dies, there isn’t a problem because there isn’t a message or “burying your gays” situation if there still are other gay characters. Example 3: When it comes to trama it is important to, once again, have other representations and diversity. You can depict LGBTQ+ life as being difficult or painful, but if that’s all you depict it as then that’s bad representation. Queer pain isn’t all there is to being queer; there is queer joy and beauty however small. Queer people can be depicted simply enjoying being queer or falling in love. They don’t always need to suffer just because they’re queer, even though that is unfortunately life. Often times this depiction just makes is seem like all there is to being queer is pain. If a movie or novel is focused on this, that’s fine, but the general media trend is that there is *only* queer pain or struggle. Example 4: When it comes to lesbians, there is often the problem that their relationship is only sexualized. Often times two women (almost always cis) will only ever be shown making out, or making sexual moves at one another (thanks male gaze). There isn’t any platonic love often shown in larger media that shows these characters being in… well, a romantic relationship. The lack of this only depicts lesbians and/or fem loving fems as sexual and not being able to have “real” love. It’s okay to have overly sexual characters just *once again* show other aspects of relationships or even other types of similar relationships. Example 5: in real life, people aren’t always good. It’s okay to make a character that is mean, abusive or evil as long as it’s handled and displayed properly, with a clear depiction on how what they are doing is wrong. Once again, for the final time, it is the diverse representation that brings characters to life and makes them feel like people: not just a gay villain, but rather a villain that happens to be gay. We want to see gay representation everywhere. Our Flag Means Death does a wonderful job at all of this, because it makes these characters *people.* Not saying that everything needs to be a perfectly conjured work of art; I enjoy a romance manga that is only fluff and nothing bad ever happens. However, in the wider scope, these are things one must keep in mind when making or consuming media. :)
I was thinking for a while after watching a lot of your videos that I can relate to you a lot but then when I found out you were lesbian I realized that I feel like you seem like a mirror of my future self. I’ve only been watching your videos for a week but I’ve watched manny of your videos and I love them so much and I hope you can get more and more fame bc you’re so talented and just your videos seem easy to watch
As a poc this point is super dumb at 18:09 it doesn't matter if you knew that using the n-word was wrong when you were 14 because your experiences are not what everyone else goes through. Not to mention this happened 9 YEARS ago people obviously change and mature in nearly a decade, not fully understanding what it meant as a 14 year old is understandable and the time between the action and present day makes me care even less.
I really appreciate you for bringing attention to this topic. I can finally be ok with telling people that I read the comic without being criticized or belittled for reading something that I like.
As a trans gay man, I really enjoyed boyfriends as a fun fluffy story because.. goth is trans. yet you don't know that fact until the pride episode. That feels so odd to poiint out, but genuinely it's so refreshing to see a trans man in fiction whose transness is never discussed until a wordless and constructive scene of them all dressed in their flags. _Especially_ when the story is so implicitly se^ual.
There are two things I do when I read this comic… 1. It’s not real, it’s a work of fiction. Just some harmless fun. 2. The art is not the artist. The child is different from the parent.
I didn’t know about the controversy about the artist, but the only thing I can say is that most non English speakers didn’t know the meaning of the n word ten years ago. I’m from Argentina and when you are exposed to music and other types of media that use the n word without context you just repeat it, because we are not obligated to know the historical and cultural meaning of every word you know, specially if it’s in another language. Also when we learn English we don’t learn that stuff, it’s like when you learn Spanish, maybe you learn the basics of conversation and some other things, but American history is not on the curriculum. Obviously if you keep saying it even after being educated it’s wrong, but people who don’t speak English and say it because they heard it on the radio/tv or are singing a song that mentions it should be educated but not attacked because sometimes ignorance is out of our control. I don’t know what level of knowledge the creator had at the time so I’m not defending them, but I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt on that.
A problem I've seen recently is that while yeah, legally 18 year olds are adults, they're by no means mature enough to be 0% problematic, and people who are learning english aren't taught about sociopolitical issues, when i was 14-15 and the 2020 thing happened I literally learned what the n word was. And even so I've never used it, that doesn't mean that maybe at my 18 years of life I still hold some minor problematic thoughts, and guess what? that's okay because most humans don't live 18 years, life doesn't end at 20 and in my country at least most 30 year olds live with their parents. I'm so tired of people trying to police the growth of everyone when not every person becomes mature enough at 13, in fact, it's rare to see that but we hold everyone to a really high standard lately.
I am also not a gay man, but I found this video essay wonderfully done, easy to follow, and you approached each smaller subject with the care they deserved. When I started seeing contempt towards Boyfriends I was sad because I read about 20 pages worth of Boyfriends a hot minute ago, and I thought it was really cute but got distracted enough to be pulled away from it. I almost didn't want to know why people hated it, but I'm glad that I found this. The genuine discussion of the pros and cons, for lack of a better term, satisfied all the curiosity I had and I'm happy this exists for anyone else who wants the details but not the excessive outrage.
As for Goth being ace but still having sex, i asked my sister, who is ace, and she said that in her case, even tho she doesn't particularly like sex itself, shed do it if her partner found it important to the relationship, even if it didn't bring her mutch fun, she said that it doesnt disgust her, she just doesn't enjoy it. So it could be a case like that.
There are 4 lesbians in this comic wich are bluntly shown to be the genderswap of the main 4 - one is the jock's sister for example
The fact that no one mentions the four Lesbians has always bothered me.
I think i saw a screenshot of the refrainbow saying the nerds didnt agree in the pro/anti shipping front, not 100% sure though
yeah, and to me at least they feel very toned down compared to the boys, for example the nerd, girl nerd just reads to me as a cute bookworm who reads too much fanfiction, like, her traits are exaggerated but it feels like she could have depth you know? While guy nerd feels like a shota to me, like, he’s a child in everything but age. Idk that’s just how I felt about it, just to be clear I didn’t read the whole thing, it’s been more than 6 months since I’ve last read it so I could be remembering it wrong, and also that’s just my perspective as a wlw
@@ayl9261 I get you. I honestly love Nerd. I have read the whole thing as well. I honestly feel like Boyfriends just not some people's preference for story. But it's popular. I'm just happy to see cute guys not being miserable because they are gay. Slice of life comics are just like this.
@@semiengima less annoying version of prep tbh
15:20 I've seen quite a few ppl actually say "I HATE the boyfriends they're all sucky tropes! But the Girlfriends are cute uwu queens I love them" like???? They're literally just genderbends of the boys. They are all the same tropes, just Sapphic. Yet they somehow they aren't getting the same fetishization and unrealism shit getting thrown at them??? Make it make sense???
It's cause it's trendy to hate on men in the media right now. :/
Wait...there a genderbend of that story?
Huh who would've known I bet it the same as boyfriend.
@@peonyflowerking it's not a different story, there's just a cast of different characters in boyfriends that's basically them but genderbent
This all comes from lesbian representation in media. Think about it, how many times in a show have you seen two gay guys that aren’t just heavily implied friends with benefits? We see lesbians in media all the time that aren’t just the one stereotype.
@@Goldie22 ooooh I see then
I think a big problem is that people can't simply not like things anymore. They have to find a moral failing of the property so that they can feel justified in their dislike and can feel morally superior to those that do.
Say it louder for the people in the back
This comment needs more likes
this exactly
For all the things that the artist has done, most of it is personal preference, and the attacks on the person is all because ppl don't understand from the mindset of someone living in indonesia with how they take in information, how they interact as an lgbt person, whats acceptable in their circle etc. Yet they are harrassed for not know whats acceptable in western circle. I think its just dumb.
I dont think the constant uwuification of gay men is morally uplifting bro lmao
as a gay guy, regarding the comic itself I had put the whole thing under "suspension of disbelief", considering literally every aspect of it seems overblown. I don't read that kind of comic myself, but I definitely see how people would just want something to escape reality into. I didn't really find the comic offensive, but regarding the artist's actions though..... yikes
I was gonna say, it seems like the comics really is just meant to be all happy and nice and not dwell on negative aspects of lgbt too much
I think it's mostly supposed to be a fun play on school sitcomish tropes but screwed up
I found it somewhat weird as a lesbian
I used to like this comic because it was colorful and unrealistic and fun, but I came back to it after a while and it seemed really sexualized and pretty weird. Maybe it’s because I heard about the creator, or maybe the WEBTOON original is worse than the canvas. Or I’ve just matured idk
Edgy 2006 I support you cause I'm les and I know plus why are the comics sounds cringey even tho there not cringey
I get not liking happy-go-lucky escapism soft uwu stuff, but there ARE couples like that! I lived with a queer couple like that! They never fought in a yelling or damatic, they were super gentle and communicative with eachother. They would go out of their way to support one another and quite literally "Oh its OK bb let me make you some tea and get you a blanket and we can watch a show and cuddle." Stuff like that is how they made eachither feel seen, understood, and loved.
Being soft and caring and extremely anti-drama isn't... bad lol. It isn't even necessarily boring. There can be drama that isn't relationship based. People can have a wholesome soft relationship AND tackle life drama.
Other stuff, especially about the author, I get being mad about, but this? Literally just people being soft and sweet to eachother? Very clearly in a way that is mutual and appreciated? Way to say you don't get healthy, supportive relationships lol.
I'm a very soft and anti-drama person and would probably not be out of place in the Boyfriends universe tbh. I'm just a single pringle lmao
I’m relationship with my significant other is exactly like that, so I really don’t get how is a gay couple being “soft uwu peace and love and rainbows” not the same as a straight couple doing the same on Shoujo manga / anime. Like, oh, okay, I get you’re just tired of the same stupid tropes, but then just go support an artist that actually does something different and help them gain popularity instead. Most artists trying to get a living will follow whatever is the most popular trend, so if you want something different, HELP THE ONES THAT DO GAIN A REPUTATION AND SHOW THERE IS A PUBLIC FOR THAT MARKET
My relationship is like that xd
Idk why people think relationships can't be 24/7 cute and supportive. Of course we fight sometimes, but that happens in all kinds of relationships because it's normal. Anyway, bfs is just a webtoon about gay people being cute and sweet, it doesn't need to show fights and bad moments, it's a comfort webtoon for people who just want to watch something cute.
Prep is like this with Goth, from what I seen, and I'm still pissed off that he acts so dumb and think they aren't dating-
@@T_E_G I'm pretty sure they have a chat abt it and prep is a lot more attentive after that. I don't remember why he was so oblivious, I thiiiiiink it was an "I didn't wanna assume and end up making you unconfortable" situation but that's going off my crappy memory. I know they had a talk and got on the same page tho.
I do wanna adress something that came out from hate that is fucking stupid. It's about Goth and that he's Ace and he has sex with his boyfriends. Yes, people are complaining about it.......
So I'll just say what's important
ASEXUALITY =/= SEX REPLUSION!! I'm in the ace spectrum, I have high libido and I fluctuate between sex positive and sex replused, so fucking drives me insane when someone actually made this 'criticism' about Goth.
People think that ace people don't have libido, it's literally so stupid. All of us are humans, humans and other animals feel the need to have s*x. Whether you're attracted to people or not...
never knew that info in my life, thanks for the info!
@@lemint same
People love to be ignorant about the ace community, I stg. There's a reason people say they're "aspec" and it's because asexuality is a spectrum.
I didn't understand at first because I didn't see the / in the =/= but yea, ur completely right
The amount of times I’ve seen people being really transphobic/homophobic to the creator is really disgusting. They keep misgendering him and whenever you corrected them by saying that Ray is a guy, they still keep calling him a girl or say that the comic is written by a straight girl. Ray may have done some questionable things but that does not give you a excuse to be transphobic/homophobic to him
Agree with you there. We definitely shouldn't do that. Unfortunately I, being a gay man, ended up doing that one time due to me deciding to lash the anger I had over that ONE actually legitimately harmful pile of crap that shall not be named because even saying it is gonna put me into an unstoppable rage & further depression onto Boyfriends. I know that I don't want to do that again & just overall avoid that slimy harmful show for good because that show... it just brought me back horrid memories of my mom abusing me which Boyfriends THANKFULLY hasn't done & will never do because the author knows better than to do what THAT show has done to my mental health.
The creator calls trans woman “femboys” and hates Jews
@@Vixieaudios Hates Jews? Oh no... don't tell me he's a fan of Tomorrow's Pioneers. Yeah calling trans woman "femboys" is already terrible enough, but that jew one just made me think of Tomorrow's Pioneers in that moment because Nick Crowley did a video on it a month ago.
EDIT: Phew, it's just him jabbing at the Indonesian government. Well, at least Ray(Refrainbow) has common sense & isn't there to make people legitimately feel miserable about themselves... unlike THAT OTHER RAY.
@@Vixieaudios That still doesn’t mean that you get to be transphobic/homophobic to the creator which is why I said that the creator has done questionable things but that doesn’t give you an excuse to be transphobic/homophobic to him just because he has done awful things
i didn’t know the writer was trans, every time i’ve seen ppl slandering it they say it was written by a straight girl. tbh saying it’s written by a straight girl makes it seem more fetishized
For me, it's not infantilizing, at least not inherently. The artist is a trans gay man from a homophobic and transphobic country, and I live in a homophobic and transphobic area of my country. It is meant as an escape, not an dissertation about gay relationships. If they or I wrote an 'realistic' story, the story would be a closeted person at best, or homophobia hurled at them frequently. Too many people think 'realism' would just be relationship issues, not the abuse that people in homophobic areas still have to face. They forget that there are still people who NEED an escapist story to escape from their reality, because their reality still hates them.
A bit mean to teens, but so many of them seem to be in places where full-force homophobia isn't present. If they were, a rom-com that is done in an escapist way wouldn't be the bigger focus than the homophobia keeping them unsafe.
Honestly I get where your coming from but an escapism story doesn't have to / in this case shouldn't be actively harmful or appealing to Fujoshis
@@basilbat273 if it's for his own enjoyment, then I don't think it matters. If people are taking this info and saying it's totally realistic representation of gay people, then that's their fault, not the author's.
@@basilbat273 From what I've read(and I've read it before getting it's current spot on Webtoons) it isn't really harmful unless you look to make things harmful for the most part. And ultimately a group of people interested in consuming mlm media will always find it. If they like it more than some of the OTHER, actually problematic stories made by assumedly cis straight women I think that is a small win.
Also doujinshi is a catch-all term for self-published works. I think you meant Fujoshi, if not you sincerely don't understand the term and need to take a step back and learn real quick.
@@maskedpanda8502 Apologies for the mistake I suppose your right it's still kinda gross to me how it treats us but your for the most part correct
Um no, the author is just a woman pretending to be trans :)
I do not know why people expect nuanced representation in a comic that has the characters literally named after the stereotypes they portray. Now, if the comic puts out any harmful messages criticism is necessary but I have seen many people disappointed in the lack of nuance this relationship has and I just do not know why people had that expectation in the first place.
This comic is just some stupid joke and everyone should be getting wooshed for taking it too seriously :/
Yeah it's honestly not like that ONE infamous hentai that pretty much put gay men acceptance down the drain.
It’s the ‘stereotype’ argument that gets me, I always like tropes of bully/nerd wether it’s gay or straight as a wlw, then you have Thomas sanders who does characters that are goth [virgil] nerd [logan] prep [patton] and so on, creatives take archetypes like the four humours like leader types, jokers etc and like to mess with dynamics. The worst part is that protaganists that are white/cis can be whatever archetype or be a jerk or lovable and no one cares but lgbt HAS to be on a pedestal. Has to be ‘good’ rep implying that lgbt can’t be shown as anything other than ‘perfect’ we’re just people, messy humans a story is a story just because it has lgbt elements doesn’t inmedietly make it propoganda.
There are some good videos about how ‘good’ representation is BORING and I would die on that hill tbh
I've seen too much media that overprides itself on how "diverse" it is when the only actually intresting characters are the straight/white/male (maybe not all three but whoever is not there to tick off a box) because they are allowed to have flaws and personal problems without the writter making sure they are competely perfect so no one gets offended
The problem with "representation" is when a character is "representing" a group, any flaws are no longer a character flaw, it's a flaw of the group they are representing, if your Muslim character is kinda a slob, that isn't a flaw for said character, it's a flaw for Muslim people stating they are all slobs, etc. Which is a terrible mindset to put yourself in while writting. I've had both good and bad diverse characters and the good ones are ones I made because I wanted too and not because I felt required too
Honestly that makes me think! Thomas Sanders is a gay man! But he doesn't get backlash in the way the boyfriend's comics does, I wonder why.
@@yukiandkanamekuran He’s a real person though.
@@shinysweety9822 Have you seen how fucking stupid twitter is though?
Say it with me now: Queer 👏Media 👏 Shouldn't 👏 Have 👏 To 👏 Be 👏 Thrice 👏 As 👏 Good 👏 As 👏 Straight 👏 Media 👏 To 👏 Be 👏 Allowed 👏 To 👏Exist 👏
Queer👏Media 👏Shouldn't 👏Have👏To👏Be👏Thrice👏As👏Good👏As👏Straight 👏Media👏To👏Be👏Allowed 👏To👏Exist 💕😁
Being👏criticized👏is👏not👏denying👏one's👏existence
👏 I 👏 am 👏 a 👏 surgeon 👏👏👏👏😡
IM CRYING LMAOOO@@gr1nm
Queer 👏Media 👏Isn’t 👏as 👏good 👏as 👏Straight 👏media💀💀
As a gay guy, i really like the boyfriends webtoon, and it helped me a lot in the process of accepting myself and my sexuality, reading a story where guys fell in love without drama and conflict that were allowed to just exist, made me be with way more peace about this side of my identity, i understand why people dislike it, but i don't think it's fair to hate everyone that likes the comic, i stopped showing support publicly when people started sending me death threats, over a silly romance comic!! People are allowed to dislike it, but i just want to like this thing without being shamed for it
Exactly! There’s so many straight webcomics/shows that are just like Boyfriends but no one bats an eye.
@@OpossumOnTheMoon what would you say the examples of straight comics being like that are.
@@evelynn1173 in terms of silly romance, on tapas there’s LifeHappens (a slice of life about the author and focuses a lot recently on her growing family and romance with her husband), any comic by Meriweather (but primarily the succumbs one and Stalker x Stalker), on Webtoons there’s My Giant Nerd Boyfriend, and with manga there’s Place to Place, ojojojo, Love is War, Miss Ueno, or even Ouran High School Host Club (though that can be debated). I haven’t read many web comics recently so most examples of dumb fun romance media is manga I’ve read.
I’m so sorry you received death threats! I have never read the comic but I saw one ad for it that was… off putting. But it’s never ok to send someone death threats, unless they’re like a pedo or a murderer. Any other reason is unacceptable. You just liking a “problematic” gay comic is no reason. People like to pick apart media and try to find dirt on it to make themselves feel morally better than others. It’s getting very repetitive. A lot of creators have done some ducked up shit but so do we. We all have done/said some fucked up shit we regret. So maybe that 10 year old dirt you found or recent mistake some person made doesn’t define that person.
@@OpossumOnTheMoon Kind of shows that homophobia is still everywhere you go.
Personally as a gay guy this whole situation disgusts me. Not because I read the comic as 'stereotyping', but the fact that this comic was created by a gay man and people are criticizing the comic for being 'fetish work'. The whole hate mob really shows to me that not even queer creators are safe from creating works that related to ourselves. The people complaining about this comic because of the 'stereotyping' is implying that if you are gay and act in/live in a way that seems stereotyping and you write about it, you are harming gay people. Which is? Who are you to judge how the hell someone lives?
Going to be honest, I read Boyfriends for the hell of it but had to stop due to the drama being a constant reminder that content creators can get lambasted for writing stories with themselves being the target demographic. This may sound stupid but this drama is the only thing that causes me panic attacks because of the really fucking terrible implications the hate towards the creator have, and then people who you actively look up to/think are good hearted ccs are also bashing this person. Yeah. The creator has done bad shit. That I won't deny. But if you've seen the people 'criticizing' , you'll notice how close it is to straight up playground bullying. From how I see it, a mob of people is treating this creator like he is worse than MAPS for writing a GAY COMIC pulling from his own experiences as a GAY MAN. Holy shit.
THANK YOU
Idc if this comment was made a year ago, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
As a bisexual dude who read the comics WAY before I saw any of the ads, I actually really loved them and found them to be a source of tremendous comfort! It’s weird how controversial the comic is outside of the actual art itself!
because most of these edgelords acc havent read the comic properly and are just hating it for the trend, its their poor attempt at being quirky, their criticism is the same old, "it hurts actual gay men!" or "it was written by a woman, real gay men wouldnt do this!" most of it is just really transphobic and misogynistic, like why gender someone's writing? feminine view on stories is not "written by women" men should be allowed to express femininity in what they write in, so it sucks ppl arent destroying a binary
@@Wishtelle Mm, I can relate to that sentiment. I don't think you're a bad person for liking a cute comic.
@@Wishtelle jut a little of a personal take on that, if your friends make you field ashamed of what you like you should either bring it up with them and put some boundries or look for better friends :/ you're supposed to be able to feel open an safe with actual friends, imo, but again, just my two cents
@@Wishtelle good to hear that! i also agree a lot with camila over there. i used to get stares and tease when talking bout my interest with my old friends even though its only simple stuff like kpop, anime, manga, fanfic, etc. but now that i've graduated i actually just kept in touch with those that actually appreciates me, they don't mind my random fangirl moments and even often go along with me cuz they also like some of the stuff. i feel like if u keep ur interest hidden then the people who'll actually appreciate u as u are or even have the same interest as u won't be able to see u, so just keep it open! i even plan to use my interests as conversation starter in order to get the right friends right off the bat lol hope u'll found the friends who'll actually appreciate u soon! ^^
@@Wishtelle Same, I kept seeing everyone bashing and hating on the comic, and I originally read it like 2 years ago before the controversy started 😅 I stopped reading it awhile ago, but it’s hard to get back into it when the whole internet is flaming the poor comic. It’s become the new Guardian Spice, if an LGBT piece of media fails to please everyone, then it will be flamed and bashed until the creator quits or deletes their account…
i do not trust the people saying it's forced representation, they're just outing themselves as believing that gay people need to constantly justify their existence and should be reduced to secondary characters
i hate when the term "forced representation" is thrown around when any minority character is present in a piece of media. it almost always manages to be oppresive (-ist or -phobic) in some way
I haven't read the full comic but there are female characters that are basically genderbends of the Boyfriends called the Girlfriends and people pull the hypocrit card by saying the comic is good only because they are in a lesbian poly relationship
Honestly I have no opinion the lesbian poly relationship, it just feels like genderbends.
@@cupio-stardust bc they are
Lesbians have ALWAYS been more accepting than us gay men ever will.
@@ExtremeWreck ?
Thank you so much for talking about this. As someone who first met and adored the comic back when it was on Canvas and didn't reach so much controversy, I have a slight sentimentality to the comic, even if its no longer for the story itself. It was one of the comics that inspired me to continue on to do comics myself. Though I don't mind the dislike for it- I can understand why- there was a period of time where my feed was filled with so much misplaced hate on the comic, despite my numerous attempts to remove myself from that area. The worst part for me I suppose was the spread of misinformation and both intentional/unintentional transphobia. There were numerous times where I've seen people misgender the author and hate so viciously on the four main characters for the littlest things, (though i will admit the voiceovers in the ads are atrocious). As an Asian who struggles with imposter syndrome when it comes to polyamory, asexuality and trans masculinity, a lot of the comments people said made it hard for me to say anything, especially those that tried to make strict definitions of those labels and hated on the comic for not abiding to them.
I dunno, I haven't been a dedicated reader for a very long time, nor do I entirely support the creator, I'm just tired. mostly of twitter. especially twitter.
also f**k webtoon ads we all hate webtoon ads
on other notes may i say you are my favorite art commentary creator out there, thank you for your work!
I wouldn’t trust anybody that has/likes Twitter honestly. Twitter is just so toxic and unnecessary. It’s just for dumb people who wanna argue and critique every little thing a person says/does. People are so so dramatic and are so overreacting about this. It’s literally just a dumb Webtoon. When I started reading(I never finished it yet) i enjoyed it. It doesn’t matter your opinion on it don’t send death threats to people, jeez. I swear some people have more Instinct than brain.
I actually read the whole comic and I personally see no problem with it it's just a typical love trope 😅 I will always love the comic
@@bakugoukatsukitheonlyrealo383 ikr
Yeah, and everyone was getting mad because Goth is ace but has sex. Like, if they're such experts, how do they not know that Asexual is an umbrella term for people who have a complicated relationship with sex.
I feel sex repulsed sometimes, and other times, my libido is through the roof. It's saddening.
And it helped me with my sexuality and gender, as well as let me know that it's okay to be asexual in my own personal way.
As a gay Jew, I'm pretty much on Refrainbow's side for all of this. The "antiemitism satire" was sloppy and poorly executed, but I'm not gonna hold a grudge against a random minor with no followers on how well they satirize antisemitism in a semi-public 1-on-1 conversation with a friend. And I'm especially not gonna hold that grudge for 6 years just because they became a micro-celebrity. They addressed it, cleared it up, and if anything I'm relieved that they thought antisemitism was stupid even when they probably didn't know any Jews.
As for the comic itself - I think it's fine. In terms of representation I think it's largely a positive, because it portrays a sexually active polyamorous relationship in a wholesome manner that's standard for the genre. The characters are mostly flat but it's not the kind of story that warrants much character development, and while it's nothing incredible I think the story is a nice read when it updates. I don't understand how people can act like the characters are gay stereotypes - these are archetypes I rarely see get to be gay at all. To use your Mean Girls analogy; Prep is a Plastic, while Goth is a Janis Ian. Pre-existing tropes that straight people have all the time in popular media. But the gay guy in Mean Girls, Damian Leigh, isn't a prep like the plastics or a goth like Janis. He's not a nerd or a jock. He's a gay guy - that's his stereotype. He isn't defined by money and status, nor by attitude and aptitude. He's defined by his orientation; obsessed with the glitz and glam of Hollywood, talking about fashion, and constantly using his identity as the butt of a joke. The idea that someone can look at the characters in Boyfriends and see Damien Leigh or Kurt Hummel is infuriating, because they're acting like the homophobic part of those characters was wearing ascots, not that their entire identity revolved around being a sassy, self-deprecating jester.
Plz go outside freAk ty stop supporting a racist Weirdo that mama cp
As a gay guy, I find this comic silly and cute. Yes the characters are very stereotypical, but it’s literally the point ! I wouldn’t say that it’s my favorite thing to read, but I usually have a good time when I do :(
yea! ive never seen the problem (edit: holy frackerdoodle i was so cringe pls forgive me i hate this webtoon now 🙁🙁)
Personally I think it’s ok and kinda cute I just think it’s weird that they say stuff like choccy milk and are all Asian despite only Jock looking even somewhat Asian
@@callmerink9444 wait they're all Asian? Even prep? I didn't know that.
It's like junk food, it's not going to be a 5 star meal, but is just some dumb fun
@@JArt872
Best way to put it honestly
something to add about the characters being based on tropes: they have traits that go against their trope. felix isn't actually seen as a cool bad boy, adrian is really cheeky and bold after he gets to know someone, vincent is horrible at being emotionally vulnerable (as far as i'm aware in the "token gay best friend" trope, the character is used as an accessory to the main love interest and gives a lot of relationship advice), and kevin is the most emotionally intelligent out of the 4.
thank you for giving a nuanced take on this! whenever i say i actually like the comic i keep getting dogpiled. i'm at the point where i'm blocking anyone who doesn't respectfully disagree.
*exactly! i don't see anything wrong with liking the comic, i used to like it but i dont read it anymore. It's similar to the J.K. Rowling thing I think, where you can like the art yet not the artist.*
I can't remember their names. I'm too used to using their labels
@@raineecho4005 felix = goth, vincent = prep, adrian = nerd, and kevin = jock
@@haunted7937 cool. Thanks
@@raineecho4005 you’re welcome :>
I wish people would just stop throwing around the word fetishization. You made an amazing point that if the tables were turned and it was a straight relationship no one would have an issue. I think us having representation in all types of media is amazing! Also being stereotypical and stereotyping are two completely different things. Also the Creator is gay, trans, and Asian. So literally every argument I've seen goes out the window.
Pretty much my problem entirely. This whole petty drama started, once again, because people in a community unaffected by an unproblematic piece of media (except for vapid and shallow personal reasons) attach words they don't know how to properly define in a feeble attempt to disguise their unjustified hatred as them "trying to start a discussion". If they really cared so much about "fellow minorities", they'd have taken two seconds to do their due diligence and think about their own issues from a less emotional and more educated perspective. But apparently being a part of an oppressed community gives you the right to bully someone for making something you don't like (THAT SAID, the creator has still done terrible shit that should be called out, but that's not reflected in the comic, so that's a completely different issue).
Ok but the creator still said the n word idc
@@paigemosher8697 They aren't actually LGBT+ people. They're just homophobes in disguise. I can tell through all the lies.
And he apologised for saying that word. He recognised it and apologised for it even though it was many years ago, and he never ever did that again, no one is defending his use of it. But Some of you need to know that we all live in different countries where we may not know what is racist and may just imitate it without proper knowledge, esp in non English non American countries. Please keep this in mind before you all start saying everyone is supposed to know this.
So true, like don't ask for representation when you only want certain types of gay people to be represented, like they claim homophobia, but that in itself is homophobic. There really is no winning; it's either not enough or too much.
I'm queer and trans, and I understand where other gay masc ppl are coming from. In my opinion, I think the over-popularization is the stem of the problem, as that is what attracted fujoshis and their "uwu" comments on it. I just take it as a mid-tier, squishy, easy-read romance that I don't actively seek but can find myself melting into the aesthetic- I can relate to some traits. I like the fantasy of seeing myself as a sweet, androgynous man who likes being cuddly with my partner, however detached from reality that is.
But I do agree that the author does need to reflect on their actions and perhaps directly connect to the communities they harmed.
This is probably the best take I’ve seen on this. It’s the fact that this is clearly directed towards fujoshis and not actual gay rep that gets me so mad about it. Stereotypes can be written right, but the way it was created was just really wrong. Don’t get me wrong, I like some BL’s like Given and Heartstopper, but their stereotypes (when there are any in the characters) are done right.
@@kurapikakurta1997 You may want to consider how it sounds when you say you're okay with gay stories written by women but not a queer/gay story written by a gay trans man. It's okay to dislike it, and certainly authors aren't infallible just because of their orientation or gender, but it's just a little weird to me to see how many people hate on queer media when it's from a creator whose identity is aligned with their story vs when it isn't. It's like LGBTQIA creators get held up on a pedestal and expected to create everything to perfectly represent every member of that demographic, and if they don't, they get torn down. (Just a general thought that came from reading your comment, not saying that's what you're doing.)
Edit: btw, if you're a woman who enjoys any kind of BL media, you're a fujoshi. That's all the word means. It doesn't mean "fetishizing, homophobic straight women" like Twitter uses it.
@@psychotophatcat I’m literally a gay trans guy
@@psychotophatcat Fujoshi translates directly to "rotten girl". You may want to consider how it sounds when you refer to any woman who enjoys BL as rotten. Yes, let's push allies away!! /sar
Also, no one said anything about the author's own demographic. There's no need; as clearly evidenced by the webtoon, it has no bearing on the quality of the story 💀💀💀 You said it yourself; LGBTQ+ authors are not infallible. Why write an essay and shoot yourself in the foot?
Have a lovely day!
@@kurapikakurta1997 Cool, I just said you might want to consider how it sounds when you say it this way. Just because it doesn't align with your own personal experience doesn't mean it's invalid or wrong.
Also to clarify, when I used "you" at the end there it was intended as a general term directed at a broad group, not specifically to you. Should've said "if someone is a woman who enjoys BL" instead. Apologies for that poor choice of wording, definitely wasn't intending on assuming anything about your identity.
As a gay trans man, I personally love this comic, I love how stereotypical it is, and how the characters end up breaking away from their own stereotypes. People are mad at the comic for being "over dramatic" "over gay", I'm so tired of people gate keeping the term "gay", there are gay people that exist that act like the people in the comic act, my god. And I also like to separate the content from the creator.
i literally do not care
@@scollaceyuri okay?
@@scollaceyuri cared enough to comment that you don't care lol
@@scollaceyuri Then shut the fuck up and go "not care" somewhere you're actually wanted.
@@scollaceyuri do you have main character syndrome or why do you think this comic was directed to you? lmao
Thank you!, As a former gay man (now identifying as non-binary and bisexual) as a writer who writes about queer stories, boyfriends is a very different genre from realism. It's a nice comic, it's something I read for the hell of it. And I like to separate the work and the creator for this very reason
It’s just. Cute fluff comic
Yup. Also great representation of the asexual community when it comes to goth. Really helped me with coming to terms with being Demi.
I’m a polyamorous gay guy, and honestly, after reading the comic, the only criticism I have is it being overly saccharine and cutesy, but considering that the artist comes from a pretty homo/transphobic country, it’s perfectly understandable that they would enjoy telling a feel-good story about a supportive relationship without getting too serious. And even if their background was different, comics like that don’t need to be grounded anyway, as long is they don’t pose as such. This doesn’t mean the work infantilizing, just that it’s meant to be sweet, cute and escapist. At times, the wholesomeness felt too forced and on the nose, and it’s kind of hard to suspend your disbelief sometimes, but things like that are pretty common when people try to intentionally create something cute and fluffy, and I understand the creator’s desire to make the situations feel safe and comforting. The comic is a little annoying (the way most uwu kawaii things are), but I found many things relatable to my own identity and relationships, and the characters are definitely not harmfully stereotypical, just portrayed in a comedic way. Overall, I didn’t love the comic, but I genuinely don’t understand the hate that it gets.
But the ads are just ridiculous. If I was the creator, I would be horrified.
I read the comic when I was a bit younger, I didn’t know anything about the author and I liked it. It was wholesome and cute, younger me liked it cause that’s what I wanted, something cute.
As a black person on the topic of people saying the N-word at 14… they should not be held accountable for that shit anymore. Like damn people act like their black friends in high school did not influence their speech. Like I knew what the word meant at 14 and so did my brothers and other black friends who said it. THE N WORD PASS WAS A THING! They had a song called “my n*gga” when I was young. While yes they could have chose not to say it, people around that age trivialized the word, that included black people. To not acknowledge it would be irresponsible.
Not to mention he is from a different country away from America. So he gets and even bigger pass cause it’s likely that he straight up didn’t know that the n-word was a slur.
You’re always so informed. I agree that is just stereotypical archetypes of people. I don’t personally participate in hating on the comic (I don’t like it) BUT I do deeply hate the creator for the use of the word and their “jokes” bc imagine their jokes about a different race. It wouldn’t be okay in that instance, and it’s not okay now
I'm a bisexual male person. I honestly don't care. My morals have jumped out the window, and I think there are many, many people who have done far worse than what refrainbow has done. I don't think he deserves death threats, and I don't think he's a bad person. As for the Webtoon, I like it. I think it's a fun little webcomic that is a great way to escape from reality.
I like his comic but imo he is a bad person because he's said some pretty racist stuff about Jews. And like with all the other stuff adding up ya can't really excuse him.
Yeah same, I also like the comic. I binged it in a day or so because it was just a cozy comic to read. Not everyone’s cup of tea and I usually enjoy in depth stories with complex characters, but this was a fun in between read that I still visit sometimes. You can like a comic and not like or agree with the creator of that comic :// But sending death threats is unacceptable, regardless of what the situation is.
@@evelynn1173 he’s also apparently drawn cp of explicitly underaged characters, and says that the nerd character is a proshipper so.. he’s not the best all around
@@evelynn1173 I'm a Jew and I looked up the comments you're talking about - he was literally making fun of antisemites. A 6 year old comment got taken out of context to make it look like he was being antisemitic, and he had a hard time remembering the context because it had been more than half a decade. That incident was wildly overblown and absolutely not worth all the hubbub everyone was throwing, and absolutely not worth the trauma of my identity being used as a cudgel against someone else.
@@normal6483 I researched it as well and yeah it's fucking stupid he wasn't actually antisemtic he was just talking about the stupid attitude of his country.
I- some how this comment also got deleted. I'm so confused... luckily I copy it before posting.
I am a gay guy. stereotypes by the people themselves aren't bad because the person is wanting to represent themselves not the community. I see myself a lot in Prep, he is a representation of me in a way. I feel very happy to see him because I like the positive way they show him! He can wear a skirt and still be a man and act as fem as he wants and still be a man, he can be as whiny as he wants and still be a man. I feel myself go "Oh :) I do that" whenever I see him.
Am i a harmful to the gay community for doing these stuff?...No. i am myself so stop putting so much pressure on gay people to not fall in to stereotypes.
ty for this, i relate sm :]
I too am a stereotype, but this just isn't it, honey. You know very well you're a lot more than that. Stereotypes are never 100% true, stereotypes are highly exaggerated just like zodiac signs
@@ghostwizard7597 I don't think I understand what you mean, can you please explain?
@@Omikel What i mean is, nobody said it isn't ok to fall on stereotypes, a lot of us do, i mean, just look at internet going crazy on "himbos". What i mean is the characters in Boyfriends all lack substantial personality (notice i said "substantial"), they exist for the sole purpose of being in their cutsy kawaii no-problem relationship.
You are not like that, honey. I too wear a skirt and i too am a man, but i'm much more than just that and i believe you are too. You are selling yourself short if you can only identify yourself as a pastel kawaii soft boy
@@ghostwizard7597 I do agree with you they are not very substantial characters, I think that's done by meaning to make them fit into the stereotypes and make it more obvious. And no just because I can see myself in a very bland and non substantial character doesn't mean I'm selling myself short. I look at the fictional characters and know that they are not real, what they have is not possible because there will be bumps in the road in real life. But seeing characters who are stereotypes just being happy with no problems makes my brain take a brake and just read, not having to think about what they are going to do because i already know what they are going to do by their nicknames.
I identify myself as a lot of stuff but one of them is not pastel kawaii soft boy even though it sounds very cool. Some things in Prep's character does not aline with me and that's fine, I can still see my representation in his character and that's all that matters for me.
As much as I agree with the criticism that's been floating around Boyfriends lately, one thing that I'm kinda ashamed of is the fact that I kinda like the character's visual designs. Like, I know some people don't like the way the colors go together and stuff, but personally, if this was an alternate timeline where the creator and webtoon weren't so controversial, I might've even enjoyed drawing some of the characters, just because their designs so visually appealing to me. IDK if this is an unpopular opinion, but I felt like putting it out there.
Honestly the art is super good shame it was such a wasted talent
@@basilbat273 Omori + GC PFP = shut up 🤐
@@glitteryvieweraltray4369 yeah no thank you
@@glitteryvieweraltray4369 You have a stock png of a manta ray with a glitter filter over it, don't judge others for their pfp.
@@spoopyvirgil4944 It’s not stock. It’s a drawing I made a while ago.
I don’t bother to update my PFP because this is an alt
As a trans polyamorous man myself I never had a problem with Boyfriends, in fact it was one of my favourite comics for a while until the internet had to go and ruin it for me and many other fans. I can completely understand why a lot of gay men don't like or appreciate the comic, it is indeed stereotypical and has an aquired taste in humour. However the backlash thats blown up recently I find to be completely unfair.
Part of why I love the comic is because I find it relateable. Because despite people not liking stereotypes, there are actual real people who fit stereotypes and shouldnt have their reprisentation squashed in favour. Its true, not all gay men are cutesie or codependant or even cringe, and there should be rep for gay men of all sorts of personalities just like any other human, but attacking this one type of person has hurt me personally quite a bit.
To hear everyone shitting on this comic that shows my kind of personality and experience feels like an attack on me as a person. The comic is flawed, yes, but the stereotype reason is being attacked too much.
Even if I don't understand English and it's not my native language, I really enjoy watching your videos.
That's kind of the only way you can enjoy her videos, if you're only watching the art and not listening to or understanding the nonsense she spews for half an hour.
@@humanbeeing4780 That's mean. Is there any one thing that you don't like about their content specifically?
@@humanbeeing4780 lmao look everyone! it's a cringe :0
@@humanbeeing4780 Did she say anything wrong? It's just her opinion.
@@humanbeeing4780 why are you here then?
I was iffy about this comic until you said it was by a gay trans man. HOW is a gay man fetishizing/infantilizing gay men, as one. People DON'T EVER say this about straight people doing this. Maybe I'm especially angry as a gay trans man (who fits into so many stereotypes) but damn.
EDIT: Also needed to add, individual artists are not responsible for good representation. If it was a company, i would see peoples point, but this is someone making a lighthearted comic on their own. Jfc
‘Individual artists are not responsible for good representation”
LOUDER
LGBT+ people can fetishize other LGBT+ people even from their own group. Alot of it stems from internalized stuff that they pick up from a lot of online communities. Like when you're in a space that gives you a silver of validation that the rest of society , but that same space expects you to be their "kawaii softboi bean" you began to feed into it just to continue to have that support and validation.
The fetishisation comes from the people that read it. A stories intended audience sets up what the story will be. Just because I’m a gay trans man doesn’t mean I can’t write a bad trans character.
I’m a black person who has made multiple black characters in the past, they were bad characters, it happens. You’re not immune to it just bc you are part of the community you represent but I get where you are coming from, I mean in general
Honestly don't really care what people think of it, people can enjoy what they want. But as a gay Trans guy who doesn't fit into alot of stereotypes I just can't relate to all the characters being owo soft bois. Not everyone is this perfect innocent bean who does no wrong. Some people can relate, and I'm not saying that no characters should be like that, but I just wish there was some diversity in the personalities.
Just because it isn't my cup of tea, though, doesn't mean it's a bad story. Some people can relate and do like it, and it's okay to have different opinions! If people (including myself) don't like it, just don't read it. It's not that hard ^^
Also don't take me opinion as expert opinion, I've only read a few episodes and it wasn't my thing.
Personally, i just think the comic just gives off chronically online vibes but i dont think thats a basis to attack anyone. Although an argument can be made about how the infantilization and stereotyping of minority groups in media has real world repercussions, i hardly think a single obscure webcomic that most people don’t even know exists is threat.
When you said MLM relationship my brain went: "Multi-level marketing?? Wait what?"
I'm overall really tired of the overpolicing of representation. One of my sapphic favorites on Webtoons has been "Savior" and many people have the OPPOSITE problem, that the characters are all pretty screwed up. But they're well written great characters! They are not SUPPOSED to be healthy the story is majorly about trauma but it's done well without any of it being just "gay trauma because gay" or any of them being reduced to stereotypes. Even the most stereotypical MC, the "evil" femme fatale character, has more depth and sympathetic emotional issues than I expected. I've DATED women like her, yes it was toxic but I RELATE to sympathizing with and loving red flag laden women like that and her toxicity is never framed positively. She's just framed sympathetically when she's vulnerable, no matter how much you hate her when she's being a b*tch. There's the complexity the representation police ordered, aaaaand they hate it. It's bad because she's not a good gf. Like, no sh*t that's the plot. That's the story.
But we apparently can't have that either so instead of pigeonholing LGBT people into stereotypes, they must be pigeonholed based on "good representation" which isn't good representation.
"Bad Representation" as a concept has devolved into just cringe culture with a moral cover thrown on top. It's just hating on something because you find it "cringe" with extra steps.
This kind of outrage is why I usually avoid writing anything out of heteronormative or asexual as those are the acceptable things for me to write it seems. So much outrage and hate over something that might just be shitty writing
It's such a challenge. Because authors shouldn't need to go to years of therapy in prep to publish their works when people can and will just not like it and then suddenly try to "find a reason" for it. But also Authors NEED to keep writing representation because we need it and we need to pave the way for those who come after to face LESS backlash. It's hard and there is no right answer other then.... People on the internet, even sometimes the people who are all about accepting others, will never assume best intentions. And it sucks.
@@casperbinnett8265 People need to write GOOD representation, because bad representation isn't good-
@@T_E_G and what exactly constitutes 'good' representation?? it seems like, no matter what, there's going to be backlash for it either way.
different people have different ideas of good representation, and it's a lot to ask of individual authors to make sure their diverse characters and themes are completely perfect to showcase to the public. some stories call for complex, flawed characters, and those characters might just happen to be queer. some stories call for lighthearted characters with not a lot of depth, and they might just happen to be queer.
there's no one-size-fits-all 'good' representation, and you can't just expect everyone to know how to represent these characters and themes perfectly for the audience while also having it fit well into the overall story
of course, they should take responsibility when their work is outright damaging and offensive, and criticism is always welcome to any work, but i just feel like 'just write good representation!' is such an oversimplification.
people hold queer content to a standard that they don't hold straight content, even if its a queer content creator telling the story that they want to tell
@@T_E_G Imagine if someone made a straight love story and people were like, "Not ALL straight people act like that. This is very bad heterosexual representation!" Sounds weird, right?
THANK YOU FOR TALKING ABOUT THIS!!!!
I literally saw a TikTok of women straight up Call a wholesome scene sesggual, They were literally just having fun on the beach, and they were literally like "Ewww this is disgusting, it's so sesggual!" And I was like I'm sorry but how is this scene of them having fun on the beach, and yes I got pissed and said out of anger "Y'all are either Dumb, Homophobes, or straight up haters, but then y'all go and watch the most inappropriate and sesggual gay, lesbian, and straight h3nt82, but you judge this, which is more comically and wholesome than the rest!
And yes I am aware of what he did on the past, and they were wrong for that, but still some people need to chill
how come i always see TikTok making mountains out of molehills, like what’s going on there 😭
@@cwgged1689 ikr!!!
why are you censoring sexual like that and what is h3nt82 supposed to mean
@@user-jw4bd5id3k I'm used to other places where we have to censor both hentai and sex, sexual, and etc.
What’s funny is that the official webtoon instagram account has younger people directing it (as far as i know) and it’s doing so much better! There’s funny memes, relatable videos, and content that actually relates to the comics themselves. Some even made by users of webtoon themselves!
I wanted to like boyfriends. poly gay rep, that isn’t just fetish shit, is important! but honestly, it was just badly written. like the adds capture a lot of the writing perfectly.
yeah honestly-
Yeah. Coming from the perspective of a gay and trans comic writer, stereotypical characters and scenes can be done right, but the writing is just wrong.
it's not a writing masterpiece but it's definitely super cute and completely harmless
I think the poly rep in Andy Bass is much much better than boyfriends.
I don't really think Boyfriends is fetishizing like ppl claim it is. I just think it's meh tbh and that it's a lil cringe but that's about it
As an old queer person, my biggest complaint with the influx of lgbt+ media over the last, idk... decade? is that the community is so desperate for inclusion that we accept any representation regardless of how terrible, cliche, or fetishy it is. And there is nothing more fantasized about than the idealized BL trope, which has had such a large, terrible impact on gay media that it's essentially impossible to make anything cute that depicts gay men without a comparison being made. Even if Boyfriends is completely unproblematic, because of its predecessors, it's kinda doomed to receive harsh criticism.
Its controversial topic of boyfriends its reminders me how people reacted Netflix's animated show "Q-Force" 1st trailer
Except Q Force is adult animated action/comedy. And boyfriends is slice of life / romance
In case of Boyfriends: Its really is Author's escapism: Where there's no drama, no angst, no love triangle or rivalry (Or their case: love square) . Just 4 cute boys being loving each other.
Not my cup of tea but I guess its someone makes happy after bad day and just want some gay fluff
I've never really took the boyfriends comic that seriously, i only make fun of it because I think it's funny, the ads are weird and also I just don't especially like the characters (especially nerd holy shit he's so fucking annoying) but that's about the extent of my 'hate' for it, other than that I'm pretty indifferent to everything else. Though, i do really like the art style and how goth is treated like a typical gay man even though he's trans if that's anything
Thank you for coming at this with so much nuance. When I heard about the drama surrounding Boyfriends, all I really heard people saying was, “It’s not representative of actual gay relationships, it’s so stereotypical, etc.” and when looking at the comic art style, it seemed kinda obvious that it was targeting a very specific audience, so when I heard these vitriolic comments on the comic on how it had “all white characters” and was just the worst thing to exist with nothing positive to offer, I was very confused, especially when the titles characters are referred to by their tropes, rather than their names. I just didn’t get it, I’m speaking exclusively about the comic.
For me, it just seems like the internet jumping on a gay man making the representation they wanna see, and I’ve noticed it’s always a catch 22 whenever creators from marginalized groups make the rep they wanna see. Either it’s “too stereotypical and doesn’t relate to the gay experience,” and I’m not the type to believe all representation has to be good representation, if it’s not harmful and the product itself is just feel good, why’s it matter? There’s actual harmful stuff out there, why’re we focusing on a feel good slice of life comic about college kids named after their stereotypes discovering themselves?
All in all, great video!! 🙌🙌🙌🙌
I was one of the unfortunate souls who saw the ad before the comic. These ads were awful and gave me scurvy everytime I saw them. As soon as I recover from the last one I'll try to read it and see for myself 🤣
I like how you explain the definition of the words being used in the accusations, both sides of the argument, different parts of the argument, your own opinion, and as well as anything else related to the topic. It's very clear and you can understand it easily. Plus you're not screaming or spitting into the mic like some other people who talk about stuff like this.
As a pansexual person...Oh boy do I know better then anyone why some people are upset with this. As my sexuality is very much sexualized and is often boiled down to me just being a sl*t/ wh*re and that because im pan I must 100% want a poly relationship or a 3 way, when Im honestly not comfortable with either. I have met gay men that are very shy and soft but I've also met gay men that are strong willed and like guy shit. I've even met gay men who are stereotypically mean and nasty who use their identity like a shield.
I can understand the upset, as depicting gay guys as just cute uwu boys is very normalized and 'desired'. Same with , mean gay guys in media being almost Romanized and seen as funny. The representation they get is either vanilla and over saturated or could be seen as bad and dehumanizing. We don't have enough representation of characters just being people that are also gay. It's always dramatized to bring interest.
It's kinda like how lesbian women have to be butch. It just isn't true and it's degrading as hell to just categorize sexualities as an umbrella stereotype of what they MUST be
I’m pansexual too, and I’m hoping to get into a polyamorous relationship when I get older, but I know that I don’t just want multiple partners just for sex I want an actual relationship too.
Also pan, and old enough to have lived through the creation of pansexual as a seperate identity from bisexual. The fact everyone thinks we're just inherently into poly and open relationships is the bane of my existence. Especially since poly is "in" right now so everyone thinks they have to try it wether that want to or not. I dip my toes in many social circles and the amount of breakups I hear about on a daily basis because a partner wants to try poly and then gets jealous just... astounds me.
@@ItsYaBoiV I’m not pan, but I keep seeing people make stories like that for their characters or even actual people. I hate the fact that people make it a trend / bad story. I hate people fetishizing these types of things or not understanding not everyone of that gender or sexuality is the same. Hopefully this makes sense I don’t want this to come off as rude in some way
Did you actually read the comic though? Because it's really not problematic. It's literally an escapism comic written by a trans, gay man from a homophobic country.
@@user-jw4bd5id3k yes but that still doesn’t justify the racist
I don’t support toxic people
You know what’s so funny? I haven’t read the comic and don’t or haven’t ever wanted to read is bc it just sounds cringey. But ever since I heard about all the “allegations” or whatever of being unrealistic, I kinda just sat there and thought, “isn’t slice if life supposed to be unrealistic?” Idk I just think someone didn’t like the comic and decided to throw things out of proportion.
As a gay trans man, I don't feel ultimately there isn't any ill intent in the comics themselves. Humans will read things where they want to, and while I personally haven't read any of the comic in context... what I have seen has just come off as a cutesy slice of life comic about gay men in a poly relationship. For me, nothing comes off in a way that I personally would find offensive. But that's me and my world view and perspective, so I can't speak for what someone else may see and actually find offensive.
When it comes to these issues, we have to remember that as individuals, we have our own unique perspective to take into account. In the end, a willingness to talk to and listen to one another to come to a healthy compromise is the best way forward in my honest opinion.
Personally I think this comic is cute, I don't really know why people think it's "fetishization", like, they're young adults and they like to do "things" often.
But like most people in relationships do, and yes the characters are written stereotyped, but they're meant to be stereotyped.
As a gay man, I really don't think it's bad, I really enjoyed reading it and learned what poly relationships are by reading this webtoon.
I understand that people find it bad and don't like it, it's normal. If someone hates it, that's fine too.
But it's not a bad webtoon, it's silly and cute, and some of us like that stuff, even when the characters are just stereotypical stupid characters doing and saying stupid stuff.
I think hating on a webtoon when it's not really bad is not the right thing to do, and some just hate it for no real reasons.
I liked it when i was reading it, but now, all the hate toward this webtoon made me avoiding it, i don't know if i can still enjoy this webtoon without behing shamefull.
And i don't think i will be abble to read it again now, 'cause all i see on Instagram, CZcams and Tiktok is people hating on a webtoon i used to really love because it used to make me feel valid and happy.
That's really depressing to see all the things that used to make me feel good are hated or just really bad now.
(Sorry for the mistakes, english isn't my first language :/)
I will always have a special place for this comic in my heart. As someone who had been repressing their gender dysphoria for so long to end up relating so much to one of the characters and then find out that their trans I broke down realizing I could have the kind and loving relationship I want and be myself.
The first time I saw Boyfriends I was like "oh I never see poly representation that doesn't just look like it's being sexualized this might be good" but then reading it I just couldn't enjoy it. It still felt iffy. It just felt like majority of the comic was s3x, stereotyping, awkward back and forth, and an occasional talk of their college life. It felt like the only personalities of the characters that were expanded on were one thing they like and then their feelings towards the other characters. I also haven't read much of it so I don't know, but of the 60 episodes I do remember reading, there was barely any background on the characters themselves, their families, friends, stuff like that.
This controversy made me realize that I just have an inexplicable hatred of super cutesy and sweet and nice characters. Well maybe not inexplicable. A lot of issues stemming from self hatred and jealousy that I've been dealing with for years. uH ANYWAY awesome video!! your research is so well done and youre very well-spoken and your art is just *chefs kiss*!
I'm a bi polyamorous trans man and I like this comic, it's not what I usually read, but I like to check it from time to time, it's honestly really innocent and harmless, I've discussed this topic with my friend who's a bisexual cis man and for both of us the massive anger towards this comic felt unreasonable.
Boyfriends gives me the vibes of those simple and relatable comics of the 2010s who would start with a random prompt that was supposed to be a one-shot but blew up and became a full story, you know, the ones you'd usually find in tumblr and gain a reasonable following. That's why I like it, it reminds me of simpler times.
I feel that people from the community have been way too harsh lately, specially at smaller creators trying to tell stories about their own identities, since they are more accesible than a celebrity or someone from a big corporation.
I mean, it's good that we're asking for better representation and not just settle for crumbs of it... But I think that sentiment should be directed at corporations, not small creators of or own community who happen to get lucky and have their stories be noticed. And well, webtoon giving bad ads to their originals doesn't help at all.
As someone who's currently writing a comic I'm pretty scared that, if it gets big, I might face the kind of harassment that Ray has been receiving, specially being a trans person on the internet. There are a lot of people who are misgendering them and treating them as a straight girl who's fetishizing gay men and... That's horrible tbh. It doesn't matter if they've made mistakes or did bad things in the past.
18:00 i would just like to point out that along with being 14 it was also 9 years ago aka 2013, which, if you remember, the internet was a lot more edgy and popular white youtubers at the time did use the n word which, while not an excuse, does give more credence to them not understanding that it wasn't just part of american english
Hey there! Trans gay guy here. Thank you for tackling this. I have been reading the comic and thoroughly enjoyed it and showed it to friends. I love the comic but I can see how others may not like it. Sadly, slander of the webcomic has invaded my feed despite my hardest attempts to wipe it off so I've been unable to read without feeling bad. I do wish you talked about the proshipping as despite my attempts to find it, I cannot seem to find the proof about it but Im sure I can find it somewhere else. The video was great and I think you did a good job going through the nuance of the comic part.
It's just a very short interaction with a fan. The fan replies something like "nerd gets kinkshamed on the internet" and the author answer (quite jokingly but many ppl take it like canon and true for some reason) is "nerd bf proshipper vs nerd gf antishipper arc".
That's all I could find, but I thing ppl also add the draing of the bts as proshipper even when the author was still a minor at the time but anyway. Also I'm from a place that jokes about everything and are known for doing that, so I'm sorry if I'm being a bit insensitive with the topic, I'm not use to internet culture that much, at least from the U.S.A. 😅😅😅
I really like the comic, but I don’t like the “infantilization” argument. I’m currently in college and yeah, my friends and I use goofy words or can act childish. The characters are all in their early 20’s, it’s normal how they are acting (though played up cause it’s a comic). I really don’t get why this one gets so much hate when I’ve seen a million straight webcomics or animes that are essentially the same thing. Not every mlm story needs to be great representation, or to talk about homophobia/transphobia, or experience hardship. We can have mindless fun gay media, just like how there’s mindless fun straight media.
Yes! Agree
I think boyfriends was a good idea badly executed, especially when webtoon took out the ads, but it's also somewhat entertaining. I mean, if you can be a little uncomfortable to read sometimes and there are things that would have been better explored, as long as we realize that most gay men don't act like that, the story is entertaining and enjoyable.
I liked how Celestia approached the subject, she gave very good information and I really liked listening to her :D.
and also, too bad that the creator has so much controversy :(
because if he hadn't done those things maybe this would have happened as a surreal slice of life webtoon and that's it, but well this world is weird never expect normal things to happen without having his weird side.
This comic aint a documentary it's a meme and people r taking it too seriously they should be getting wooshed for that. Where did it it say "this is a 100% accurate representation of real story of real gay people irl"
It's just a comic with some silly fantasy anime logic where the characters act weird. If you think its supposed to depict irl people that's your own assumption and that means you should get mad at your own stupid assumption not the comic lol
"...badly executed"? Was the axe blunt or something?
theres no need for "realizing gay people dont act like that", i cant make a quirky or excentric character gay? no one says anything when theyre cishet cause its abvious theyre just a quirky fictional person, im tired of the overpolicing of the ways queer people can write themselves and exist, its scary to post your own art now
@@MelissaBezerra any group like that is so sensitive now smh this is why people are terrified to draw any characters gay or black or sumn cos they will get criticized to hell if it aint perfect
The first time i read boyfriends, way before it became a controversial thing, i thought it was just, pretty cute. Nothing special, just, a neat romance comic with cute colourful art.
And then after a few months everyone was talking about how it was the worst thing ever created and satan himself wouldn't accept such a disgusting piece of garbage and the art was horrible and blahblahblah. And i was like, huh?? What did i miss?
On the topic of people infantilizing Elliot Page after the Met Gala, I've seen plenty of cis gender men also get infantilized in the same way, people like Eddie Redmayne, Karl Jacobs, and other men who have played a quieter , more gentle character in media or put out a very soft or gentle personality on their own social media. They'll get called things like "bean" and "cinnamon roll" and all round most people just treat them as cutesy boys. This in no way disregards that Elliot must have felt like shit to be treated as "less than a man" after he publicly came out and transition. That probably felt terrible and so invalidating. But infantilization like that is definitely not solely used on trans men, it's used on men who have played or put out a soft, gentle, sweet personality.
I loved this comic so much when it was on canvas. I understand it’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but I have a lot of sentimentality connected to it, as it helped me come to terms with who I am. I think those who dislike it are valid in their opinion, however I believe it has just been blown out of proportion. When I read it (lost interest after the transfer), I understood that it was all just for fun and a way to have a wholesome moment. I didn’t think it was a reflection on how real people are or anything like that. I get that people are upset with the “uwu gay smol bean”, anyone would be, but the thing is that it’s not only the four of them that are soft and cute, EVERYONE else is established to be cute, they just happen to be the focus because they are the main characters.
Tldr; people are valid in their opinions, but also both sides need to shut up sometimes. The author clearly just made a cute little comic and it’s not their fault it randomly blew up like it did.
as a demi bisexual I can understand how someone could be mad about the comic, but they have to know that stereotypes are used in every gender. flip the main cast around to female you get the typical nerdy girl, the moody goth, the popular jock, and the rich preppy girl. I understand how the creators actions are bad and could and did hurt peoples feelings, but being told that "if you read boyfriends and are okay with the stereotypical gay guys trope you should die!" well? why aren't they saying the same things about "mean girls" or "heathers". People are upset that the fact prep is the preppy rich boy and say that it hurts gay representation when you should also be saying the same about Regina George. Not even blonde is a dumb blonde, and not every gay guy is defined by one normal stereotype.
I can't speak for the gay community, what I can speak that for me, boyfriends isn't as bad as people make it out to be. It takes normal stereotypes mostly placed in heterosexual media and makes it about a group of four boys who are all in love with one another in a sweet, loving, and respectful relationship. i'm not saying every gay relationship is all puppies and rainbows, but isn't that somethings that everyone would want? a love so pure and trustworthy that you never get out of the honey moon phase?
I would love a relationship like that, but I understand its not the same for everyone.
if I made anyone upset known its my own opinion and that im only going off of what I think and feel. I've read some comics and figured out that yes it is hurtful and i understand, but growing up in a society where those stereotypes man or women is basically everywhere I can't help to think it's more of a cute take on bad representation.
thank you for listening. (know I do not condone the artist using vulgar language and creating art pieces of two real life people okay. all im saying is that too me, the comic isn't so bad)
I just read the whole thing and yes,i agree
@@purplepurple1178 thank you
Honestly….. I was expecting more. The controversy about the comic itself feels more hollow and overblown than I was expecting. As you said, it’s pretty clear that nothing in this comic is meant to be seen as realistic. It would probably be a hell of a lot more depressing if it was, considering how openly reviled poly relationships are by many people throughout the world, and there is no truly “realistic” representation of a non-traditional relationship dynamic without also covering the backlash and hardships that come with being in that sort of relationship. If you write a story about a non-traditional relationship (and I mean ANY relationship that qualifies as non-traditional, such as mixed race couples and relationships between a disabled person and an able-bodied person, not just lgbtq+ ones), set it in the real world, and make everything about it true to real life, but then completely ignore the outside opposition that those kind of relationships face, then that defeats the entire purpose of making the relationship itself realistic and comes across more like cherry picking.
My only real complaint about the comic is that it’s pretty boring, and I lost interest quickly. Now, the controversy around the creator themself feels a bit more legitimate. Not death threat worthy by any means, but with more clear and definitive reasons for others to be upset. Regardless, this isn’t as horrifically offensive as what I was expecting.
Thank you so much for being nice about it, people are so quick to react and everyone’s so mean and I don’t get anything from it
Even I myself fell for misinformation, that the creator is supposedly homophobic and transphobic
I really appreciate you just sharing the facts
(I commented this before watching the whole video)
Me too(even as a heterosexual person)
I've been waiting for this kind of vid thanks for you content! :>
Critics: We need more comics of gay/queer relationships done by the community.
Also critics: Not in that way!
Basically it's always the same. Comics/writing/art is hard. One cannot make everyone happy, so if it makes the creator happy in either making it or financially doing it, it's the only thing the creator has to make happy. People need to try doing their own to see how hateful the internet is.
I think that there might be a idea with the webtoons ads as they are all horrible. Perhaps it is to create controversy as controversy generally sells better than being just good.
18:32 soo... if someone thought something was ok at 14 that means their apology 10 years latter is meaningless? Ok cool, got it, no growing or changing aloud. I'll just re adopt all the nonsense I believed at 14 into my world view. I thought it was fine then, so the things I say now as an adult and what I have learned in the mean time do not matter, it is what i did at 14 that really counts and shows my true character. This makes perfect sense and is a reasonable standard to hold people to👍🏼😊🤝🏽
Thank you SO MUCH for this video. Literally argued about this topic with people a few days ago, and a thing a lot of people tend to miss with the "harmful stereotype" argument is that a lot of people actually act like that, and calling the boyfriends cringy and weird is really detrimental to all the men who felt seen with this comic. Someone literally told me "thank you for being the type of person i get stereotyped as", as if the problem was cute flamboyant gays existing, when it actually is homophobes pushing these tropes on people who don't identify with them. I feel like a lot of loud Boyfriends haters are actually younger gay boys who still struggle with internalized homophobia and want to be taken seriously by distancing themselves from stereotypical gays as much as they can. Like, just let us enjoy a cutesy silly romance where everyone is kind with eachother, I don't need every lgbt+ media to be dramatic and traumatizing
Thank you for clearing this up for me. I was very naive and believed Twitter people that the author and comic were the WORST things to exist. I generally, do not go on webtoon anymore. I just.... Can't. I just don't really like the platform and the comics have not caught my interest in some time. This is on my part though, because I WAS barley on the app when I had it.
I have noticed this too and I have been getting the ads less now
People make me feel so weird for liking the comic like damn
good!!
@@scollaceyuri I’m gay/pan poly trans masc I think I’m allowed to like it 👋🏻
As a black person, I don't get why they're getting so much flack for using a slur nearly a decade ago if they've shown growth since then. 10 years is a lot of time to learn and it seems like they haven't used it since, so I don't see the outrage over this
You took the words out of my mouth when you started talking about where the people in the LGBTQ+ community are only seen in certain serotypes where their sexuality defines them as a person when that is only one aspect of their lives because of the media and lack of representation.
(Disclaimer: I am not in the LGBTQ+ community but I know and is friends with people in the community and I watch how those people act and how other react because of what they identify as) (Disclaimer: I'm not saying that this is how all people in the community are treated or seen, this is just from personal observations)
I was just listening to this commentary and this literally has everything I need to know, well at least the basics. Thank you Celestia!!
I really like your voice! It's perfect for when you want to paint and just relax. Great video 💚
Thank you for treating this topic with the nuance it deserved. The only problem I had was when you spoke about someone "needing to know better at 14". Not everyone grows up in the same environment, or will be exposed to the same information. I come from a racist, homophobic and transphobic household and didn't get the information I needed to become a more sensitive person up until recently. If we keep holding people's wrong doings when they were young like a knife to the neck we are not allowing someone to grow. So long as someone proves that they have indeed changed and stop saying those things in public or private the internet should not hold a knife to their neck.
I’ve heard about the drama, but Wasn’t expecting you to cover this, celeste
Hi, I just wanted to say thanks for making this video. I didn't know a single bit of this and didn't even know Webtoon had made ads of this comic so thank you. I liked that you were willing to step back at some points when you didn't have the proper viewpoint to make a judgement; so many people like to talk for other demographics and I believe acknowledging when you can't make an informed statement on something is very mature. Thank you for your research and work, I appreciate it!
Thank you for making this video! Im really glad someone addressed this from multiple sides of what is going on
I absolutely agreed that the comic itself seemed to be just a slice-of-life enjoyable story in many ways I liked a lot for a long time
And then external things, such as the ads or the creators actions, had an influence over my perception of it
And it seemed many other people's as well
Discounting the fact that those problems weren't directly linked with the content of the comic, when the work itself didn't seem to be where they were coming from
I think its important to accept, respect, and acknowledge the issues surrounding this work
And also that the comic is separate from them in a lot of ways
(and some MAD COOL artwork in the speedpaint B))
Im not gay but bi so i don't know how much my opinion counts so please take my comment lightly, i kinda liked this webtoon, not becouse of the sexy scenes or something like it, but becouse it was a pretty wholesome relationship and funny sometimes, the artstile was cute and such.
I don't really care about the realism, becouse i was there to read to get detaced from reality, if there was really realism those guys would get homophobic insult every 2 episodes (sadly, but at least here where i live it's like this)
I like it too! I'm Bi/Pan and on the Aromantic scale, I like this comic but see the issues.
HONESTLY, I mean the “spicy” scenes are nice, the part I enjoy the most is the comedy and just the wholesome interactions that make me say “aww” or “omg that’s so cute”
@@ander_1O1 Yeah, same. I understand why people don't like it but I see other people's sides too
17:55 hey quick note on that! i am not defending them for saying it in any way but as someone whos from a non english speaking country as well, especially one with a lot less diversity than america, it is very common for people of younger ages here to not grasp the meaning of certain slurs and thus use them lightly. sadly, in a lot of non english countries, the use of words like the n-word is still very common and normalized. on top of that, they might have been fans of people who further normalized this ""edgy"" behavior. fortunately my american friend educated me about the implications and history and why i should never say it at a young age, but others might have not been! before someone comments saying that im wrong, pls remember that different people have different perspectives and experiences and you may be from a more progressive community. again, not defending their (or anyone who says that) actions but just giving my insight from my perspective ^^
Where they live apparently they know what the word means. I'm not completely sure, but many people from the area have said its common knowledge.
This is probably the best video I've seen about this subject, new sub ♥
Thank you for the more calmer approach. I’ve personally stayed away from the drama for as much as I could, as I’ve (even if my time on web toon is reduced to maybe once a month by now) enjoyed reading it, especially during the quarantine. It’s always made just a stereotypical, fun and pastel impression on me so seeing so many people mad at it kinda confused me. As I’ve said, I wasn’t aware of much more than the stereotyping being a problem to many.
Seeing the problems people have with thr comic itself laid out like that, I can honestly say that it’s not something I care about too much. Especially Goth has been a favourite of mine, since he’s not only mlm rep but also a trans guy. I rarely see trans characters, even rarer in such uplifting and simply cute media. It’s made me feel like liking that stuff and being a trans guy is okay, and i really appreciate that.
The things with the author kinda stopped my enthusiasm that it wasn’t that serious of a drama tho. I’m glad they apologised and showed where he went wrong, tho the part about drawing/writing abt real people still weirds me out.
All in all tho, thank you for making this video! I’ve been worried to support something potentially harmful but I’ve been too emotionally invested with the comic (it’s helped me through some of the 2020 struggles, and i was able to better connect to a classmate over it,…) to look at people at war with it. Please have a great day, amd again thanks for informing me
I can't say much about the n-word thing as I am not black, though I can see what the author meant when they said they didn't realize the harm of it due to not being a native english speaker. I don't know how it is in Indonesia, but in my country a lot of slurs aren't seen as offensive by the general public. I don't see the n - word used often, but when it is, no one finds it to be a bad thing (probably because of how rare it is to meet a black person, I've literally only met one in my whole life). Most of my peers are in the age of 13-16 (about the same age the tweet was made) and are genuinely confused when they see the n-word considered as racist, since it doesn't really have any history here.
@Marwrob I hate how people really do forget that! Not every person on the internet was born or lives on the US!!! Not everyone has the “common sense” they have because we didn’t grow up with that!!!
I come from a place near and similar to indonesia, and our only contact with stuff like that back in our days was rappers on mtv, so the kids back then will all emulate, there's no one to correct them, and no one's ever seen a black person in real life. Furthermore, if this was very long ago before the artist got famous and had more global eyes on him, he could think he can say whatever he wanted. But one thing i realized about twt is that its so american, there's SO many things i didn't even think were racist. So before you jump on ppl, don't assume they know. If they recognise and apologise, thats good. The world is so wide, I beg ppl to stop using american lens to judge ppls words.
@@gilliantoh4658 “stop using American lens to judge people’s words” LOUDER
@@lepetitmonster8737 it is wrong for him to say it and understandably ppl are all in their right to be angry. But if someone has changed since then(esp since this was said 7 yrs ago) and learned, i believe ppl should be given a chance, given how they were brought up. It's natural not everyone knows whats offensive in the whole world but at least there is CHANGE upon realizing
on the nsfw of minor irl bts members:
i think its important to remember that yes, its okay for a minor to view another minor sexually, but the problem arises when they upload that content to the internet. in the usa at the least, its still classified as cp no matter who made it, ESPECIALLY when its of a real person. the law also includes fictional minors in art/writing/any digital form, by the way.
speaking purely legally, its illegal to have uploaded it to the internet no matter the age. itd be different if they had kept it private.
I really didn’t get the reason behind people hating this comic (like making those slander memes and stuff like that) since I was given no context at all and it happened so suddenly, so I’m glad I found this video. I really appreciate it.
When it comes to storytelling and representation, one must understand that what makes a certain depiction harmful is lack of other diversity.
Example 1: you can have a campy, fem, gay man. These types of gay men *exist* in real life openly and closeted. You just can’t have that be the *only* way you represent gay men. If you have a fem, gay man, a bear, and a super masc, gay man then there is nothing wrong with having one gentleman being fem. That’s good representation because you have the spectrum; you aren’t representing gay men as uniform or as there being one type of gay man
Example 2: in terms of character deaths, the same goes. If you only have the only gay character die, there is an implication there about how one views gay people, intentional or not. If there are several gay people and one dies, there isn’t a problem because there isn’t a message or “burying your gays” situation if there still are other gay characters.
Example 3: When it comes to trama it is important to, once again, have other representations and diversity. You can depict LGBTQ+ life as being difficult or painful, but if that’s all you depict it as then that’s bad representation. Queer pain isn’t all there is to being queer; there is queer joy and beauty however small. Queer people can be depicted simply enjoying being queer or falling in love. They don’t always need to suffer just because they’re queer, even though that is unfortunately life. Often times this depiction just makes is seem like all there is to being queer is pain. If a movie or novel is focused on this, that’s fine, but the general media trend is that there is *only* queer pain or struggle.
Example 4: When it comes to lesbians, there is often the problem that their relationship is only sexualized. Often times two women (almost always cis) will only ever be shown making out, or making sexual moves at one another (thanks male gaze). There isn’t any platonic love often shown in larger media that shows these characters being in… well, a romantic relationship. The lack of this only depicts lesbians and/or fem loving fems as sexual and not being able to have “real” love. It’s okay to have overly sexual characters just *once again* show other aspects of relationships or even other types of similar relationships.
Example 5: in real life, people aren’t always good. It’s okay to make a character that is mean, abusive or evil as long as it’s handled and displayed properly, with a clear depiction on how what they are doing is wrong. Once again, for the final time, it is the diverse representation that brings characters to life and makes them feel like people: not just a gay villain, but rather a villain that happens to be gay.
We want to see gay representation everywhere. Our Flag Means Death does a wonderful job at all of this, because it makes these characters *people.* Not saying that everything needs to be a perfectly conjured work of art; I enjoy a romance manga that is only fluff and nothing bad ever happens. However, in the wider scope, these are things one must keep in mind when making or consuming media. :)
I was thinking for a while after watching a lot of your videos that I can relate to you a lot but then when I found out you were lesbian I realized that I feel like you seem like a mirror of my future self. I’ve only been watching your videos for a week but I’ve watched manny of your videos and I love them so much and I hope you can get more and more fame bc you’re so talented and just your videos seem easy to watch
As a poc this point is super dumb at 18:09 it doesn't matter if you knew that using the n-word was wrong when you were 14 because your experiences are not what everyone else goes through. Not to mention this happened 9 YEARS ago people obviously change and mature in nearly a decade, not fully understanding what it meant as a 14 year old is understandable and the time between the action and present day makes me care even less.
I really appreciate you for bringing attention to this topic. I can finally be ok with telling people that I read the comic without being criticized or belittled for reading something that I like.
As a trans gay man, I really enjoyed boyfriends as a fun fluffy story because.. goth is trans. yet you don't know that fact until the pride episode. That feels so odd to poiint out, but genuinely it's so refreshing to see a trans man in fiction whose transness is never discussed until a wordless and constructive scene of them all dressed in their flags. _Especially_ when the story is so implicitly se^ual.
There are two things I do when I read this comic…
1. It’s not real, it’s a work of fiction. Just some harmless fun.
2. The art is not the artist. The child is different from the parent.
I didn’t know about the controversy about the artist, but the only thing I can say is that most non English speakers didn’t know the meaning of the n word ten years ago. I’m from Argentina and when you are exposed to music and other types of media that use the n word without context you just repeat it, because we are not obligated to know the historical and cultural meaning of every word you know, specially if it’s in another language. Also when we learn English we don’t learn that stuff, it’s like when you learn Spanish, maybe you learn the basics of conversation and some other things, but American history is not on the curriculum. Obviously if you keep saying it even after being educated it’s wrong, but people who don’t speak English and say it because they heard it on the radio/tv or are singing a song that mentions it should be educated but not attacked because sometimes ignorance is out of our control. I don’t know what level of knowledge the creator had at the time so I’m not defending them, but I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt on that.
Also I’m not saying all the other stuff is okay, just commenting on that one situation
I would like to say, this is only the second video of your's that I've watched, but I really enjoy your format! Can't wait to watch more.😊
I’m so happy you hit 20k last week!
A problem I've seen recently is that while yeah, legally 18 year olds are adults, they're by no means mature enough to be 0% problematic, and people who are learning english aren't taught about sociopolitical issues, when i was 14-15 and the 2020 thing happened I literally learned what the n word was. And even so I've never used it, that doesn't mean that maybe at my 18 years of life I still hold some minor problematic thoughts, and guess what? that's okay because most humans don't live 18 years, life doesn't end at 20 and in my country at least most 30 year olds live with their parents.
I'm so tired of people trying to police the growth of everyone when not every person becomes mature enough at 13, in fact, it's rare to see that but we hold everyone to a really high standard lately.
It's not a harmful comic. It's just cringe. Gives me a weird sort of nostalgia almost- It's like when hetalia was huge.
I am also not a gay man, but I found this video essay wonderfully done, easy to follow, and you approached each smaller subject with the care they deserved. When I started seeing contempt towards Boyfriends I was sad because I read about 20 pages worth of Boyfriends a hot minute ago, and I thought it was really cute but got distracted enough to be pulled away from it. I almost didn't want to know why people hated it, but I'm glad that I found this. The genuine discussion of the pros and cons, for lack of a better term, satisfied all the curiosity I had and I'm happy this exists for anyone else who wants the details but not the excessive outrage.
As for Goth being ace but still having sex, i asked my sister, who is ace, and she said that in her case, even tho she doesn't particularly like sex itself, shed do it if her partner found it important to the relationship, even if it didn't bring her mutch fun, she said that it doesnt disgust her, she just doesn't enjoy it. So it could be a case like that.